Anyone have experience with Martial epics?

[W_L]

I am not a writer of martial epics as my focus has been geared toward sci-fi and modern fiction, but I do get inspiration from them.

 

Martial epics can be described as stories with focus on combat and war, but it goes deeper in most cases. Chivalry, honor, duty, fidelity, and other areas are virtues that highlight these long stories. Sometimes they are borderline fantasy stories, but they usually are inspired by historical events and contexts. It's not Lord of the Rings with fantasy species in epic wars, but it is similar to the tales of King Arthur and his knights of the round table in story telling elements.

 

For Asians writers and readers, it's basically the Wuxia genre of writing; the Chinese writers Jin Yong's Legend of the Condor Heroes, basically ignited the genre, is one of the most famous stories and heralded the modern age of martial epics. Japanese anime creator, Akira Toriyama, was inspired by the wuxia genre to create his anime equivalent, Dragonball, which ignited the anime concept stories that are now present.

 

I was wondering if anyone is familiar with this genre and can point me to a story on GA or an author, who works with these themes and story-lines in an original setting. I am not talking about fanfiction of dragonball or anything like that as most writers have issues with good slash fiction.

[corvus]

Interesting post! I once tried writing a wuxia epic, but stopped halfway -- I think I didn't want to write completely within Jin Yong's convention, but I couldn't figure out a good, independent paradigm either. It's my ambition to write something of the sort some day, though. I don't think there's any such story on GA, but there's a site called spcnet that has wuxia novel translations as well as fanfics. I haven't read any of the latter, but I've spent many, many hours with the former.

[JamesSavik]

you kill my father/brother/dog!

 

your kung fu is weak!

 

your master is sad, old drunk!

 

shut up and fight!

[gardentuber]

Lemme see...

 

How about Christopher Lyden (also on crvboy.org)? Or our own dkstories? They both seem to write in the format you've described. Or C James, here on GA, too? Do their works conform to the genre?

[W_L]

Lemme see...

 

How about Christopher Lyden (also on crvboy.org)? Or our own dkstories? They both seem to write in the format you've described. Or C James, here on GA, too? Do their works conform to the genre?

 

Problem with DK's stories fitting a Martial epic genre is that his protagonists are capable minded, but their evolution is not entirely through conflict. Another area of martial epics missing from CJ stories, the idea of character evolution is not character progression, which CJ excels in. Dramatic experience is needed for an evolution of character.

 

I haven't read Lyden's story yet.

 

Jin Yong is famous for being the father of the Wuxia martial epics of the modern era., but copying his style is nearly impossible. Each of his stories is about 40 volumes, only a few authors on GA have that ability to write 40 volumes.

[gabrielsknife]

I don't think you're gonna find exactly what you want here - at least, not without making some compromises. First, a martial arts epic requires more "fighting - action" then anything else. I don't see it sharing the same lime-light a slash/yaoi/gay fiction needs. Slash fiction requires heavy character development to explain the ins and outs of the relationships of the characters, then you've got to worry about the erotic scenes clashing against the fighting scenes.

 

Martial arts epics are - very often - strictly fighting and/or little to no character development. Not to say there isn't any development in the martial epic, but that's not what the epic is going for. Martial arts epics are all about the fighting; to introduce the added element of slash/gay/yaoi is to turn the story away from the fighting and onto something else.

 

You might want to try looking up a change of setting. Gladiator fiction, either fantastic or historical/Roman(esque) might be a good choice. You're gonna get a lot of bara/manly men; also, try some prison fiction. Lots of fighting in prisons. Basically, anywhere you find fighting, you're likely to stumble across the essence of your "martial arts epic."

 

...I will admit, however, that you're posing me a very interesting challenge. The plot-bunnies are forming, and if I can devote a few moments to the idea, I might have you something to look forward to. I hope you do find what you're looking for. Drop me a line, sometime, and throw some links if you find it .

[W_L]

I don't think you're gonna find exactly what you want here - at least, not without making some compromises. First, a martial arts epic requires more "fighting - action" then anything else. I don't see it sharing the same lime-light a slash/yaoi/gay fiction needs. Slash fiction requires heavy character development to explain the ins and outs of the relationships of the characters, then you've got to worry about the erotic scenes clashing against the fighting scenes.

 

Martial arts epics are - very often - strictly fighting and/or little to no character development. Not to say there isn't any development in the martial epic, but that's not what the epic is going for. Martial arts epics are all about the fighting; to introduce the added element of slash/gay/yaoi is to turn the story away from the fighting and onto something else.

 

You might want to try looking up a change of setting. Gladiator fiction, either fantastic or historical/Roman(esque) might be a good choice. You're gonna get a lot of bara/manly men; also, try some prison fiction. Lots of fighting in prisons. Basically, anywhere you find fighting, you're likely to stumble across the essence of your "martial arts epic."

 

...I will admit, however, that you're posing me a very interesting challenge. The plot-bunnies are forming, and if I can devote a few moments to the idea, I might have you something to look forward to. I hope you do find what you're looking for. Drop me a line, sometime, and throw some links if you find it .

 

Thanks,

 

It's one thing that I have not seen in gay fiction. I know there are many other fans of the style around here, but most write and create fantasy stories.

 

Jin Yong or Louis Cha is one of my favorite writers of Martial epics. He utilize the concept of what a hero is supposed to be along with the critical flaws in each that helps define his characters. Louis Cha

 

As for the aspect of fighting, the Deer and the Cauldron, is remembered well for having a protagonist that relied on his intelligence and cunning rather than fighting ability, which he lacked. It creates a brilliant concept that honor may be utilize in all fields and actions even by people with the basest desires. Deer and Cauldron

 

As for background, themes, and style, I have thought about incorporating it within my own writing ever since my story Worlds of Difference began. I wanted to implement my own style similar to the Huang Yi style of martial epics. Basically, he incorporate western science fiction into a eastern martial epic with applied concepts of technology, principles, and systems of thought. His stories changed martial epics from the ancient references of martial heroes by incorporating futuristic elements of science fiction. Huang Yi

 

Also, Huang Yi has tons of romance and sex in his novels, with a few references to gay sex You can write a martial epic with heavy character development.

 

I've been trying to find and grasp this concept for gay readers; hoping to find a comparison or compatriot writer with a similar interest in the style.

[gabrielsknife]

Thanks,

 

It's one thing that I have not seen in gay fiction. I know there are many other fans of the style around here, but most write and create fantasy stories.

 

Jin Yong or Louis Cha is one of my favorite writers of Martial epics. He utilize the concept of what a hero is supposed to be along with the critical flaws in each that helps define his characters. Louis Cha

 

As for the aspect of fighting, the Deer and the Cauldron, is remembered well for having a protagonist that relied on his intelligence and cunning rather than fighting ability, which he lacked. It creates a brilliant concept that honor may be utilize in all fields and actions even by people with the basest desires. Deer and Cauldron

 

As for background, themes, and style, I have thought about incorporating it within my own writing ever since my story Worlds of Difference began. I wanted to implement my own style similar to the Huang Yi style of martial epics. Basically, he incorporate western science fiction into a eastern martial epic with applied concepts of technology, principles, and systems of thought. His stories changed martial epics from the ancient references of martial heroes by incorporating futuristic elements of science fiction. Huang Yi

 

Also, Huang Yi has tons of romance and sex in his novels, with a few references to gay sex You can write a martial epic with heavy character development.

 

I've been trying to find and grasp this concept for gay readers; hoping to find a comparison or compatriot writer with a similar interest in the style.

 

I am the first to admit when I am defeated. You know your genre and that is inspiring enough.

 

I haven't really delved too much in Chinese or Korean stories. I have a copy of Romance of the Three Kingdoms (and I had to fight to get both books - so much money! @.@) and I have *yet* to finish reading them. I've been drawn to Japanese legends more, but I've found my desire to read severely lacking as of yet.

 

You have sparked my interest in this genre. Especially if I can get a good bit of erro in with my fight scenes . Always a win there.

 

I dunno. Let me plod through some of these stories and get a feel for the genre. Point me towards some of the more interesting ones if you please .

 

...And I blame you for the new short I'm in the midst of lol. It might be the one I send into the summer anthology too. It's not an epic, by any means, but it's certainly got some "bite"

[W_L]

Glad to be a muse

 

My problem comes as I have too much experience with the genre and want to create something original that can break the mold.

 

Additionally, there's a short cut to understanding and reading martial epics; go watch Star Wars Episode 4-6 a few times

 

Lucas based many of his concepts in his original science fiction trilogy on martial principles of good and evil along with swordplay. I am a huge fan of science fiction as well. In concept, most people, who are not able to read Chinese, Korean, or Japanese martial epics, would be able to grasp the basic outlines through star wars first trilogy and learn the failures of integrating complex themes from the second half.

 

However, be very careful about adapting political systems into a martial epic, George Lucas tried in episode 1-3 of Star Wars, but failed miserably. To be honest, I bet he tried to walk in the footsteps of Jin Yong's The Smiling, Proud Wanderer aka the Swordsman, which is famed for political integration and internal divisions within the side of good and evil. The Smiling Proud Wanderer

 

Politics is the highest form of integration in martial epics, because they must always be multi-dimensional, if not then you will get a bore fest aka Star War's Phantom Menace.

 

It's a very difficult genre to master, even more difficult if you incorporate science fiction. I hope you won't get scared.

 

or as Yoda would say:

 

"You will be...You will be"

[gabrielsknife]

Glad to be a muse

 

My problem comes as I have too much experience with the genre and want to create something original that can break the mold.

 

Additionally, there's a short cut to understanding and reading martial epics; go watch Star Wars Episode 4-6 a few times

 

Lucas based many of his concepts in his original science fiction trilogy on martial principles of good and evil along with swordplay. I am a huge fan of science fiction as well. In concept, most people, who are not able to read Chinese, Korean, or Japanese martial epics, would be able to grasp the basic outlines through star wars first trilogy and learn the failures of integrating complex themes from the second half.

 

However, be very careful about adapting political systems into a martial epic, George Lucas tried in episode 1-3 of Star Wars, but failed miserably. To be honest, I bet he tried to walk in the footsteps of Jin Yong's The Smiling, Proud Wanderer aka the Swordsman, which is famed for political integration and internal divisions within the side of good and evil. The Smiling Proud Wanderer

 

Politics is the highest form of integration in martial epics, because they must always be multi-dimensional, if not then you will get a bore fest aka Star War's Phantom Menace.

 

It's a very difficult genre to master, even more difficult if you incorporate science fiction. I hope you won't get scared.

 

or as Yoda would say:

 

"You will be...You will be"

 

......You mean I haven't written this yet? *Looks over to his multitude of characters* Gentlemen, we can beat out Mister Lucas, right? *crickets chirping* Guys? Shit...

 

I am not daunted by the task! As the great jedi master said, "Do, or do not. There is no try."

 

Oh-ho, babe, I understand that desire to "break the mold" of a genre. I thought I was clever, trying to crack open the fantasy sub-genre of "magical animal pairing" that Anne McCaffrey ("Dragons of Pern") and Mercedes Lackey (Heralds of Valdemere) star in. And I ended up writing myself in circles. I now have over a hundred "chapters" of a story that I've discontinued. Be careful when you try to crack open your genre of choice. You never know where the characters will take you, just how quickly the story will metamorphose, or who beat you to the punch lol!

 

But, in all honesty, I think I'm rather close to some of this. I just end up throwing relationships/sex and (maybe) politics up in the fore front. I'm kinda worried whenever I write about fighting because I'm afraid it's too violent. When my Maa'rish battle, it almost always ends in someone's death, with blood flying and body-parts getting ripped off. I get worried that such violence turns my readers off from the rest of the story.

 

But, I dunno. You might be interested in my "Gone Hunting." It's not "martial" but it does have a significant quotient of fight scenes. Or will, as soon as I polish it up. I've got a large-scale battle coming up in the third installment of my Triptych series, however that story is still congealing and has not been posted yet. Some of my shorts (like the one you inspired ) have bloody bits, but they too are not yet posted.

 

A lot of my stuff leans more towards Star Trek then Star Wars. I find myself needed to explain the evolutionary traits and political structure a lot; but people don't seem to mind my info-dumps too much.

 

I was looking over that story you mentioned, The Smiling Proud Wanderer, and it sounded a lot like "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon". I hope, by mentioning that movie, I didn't just make you wince; I know some martial arts enthusiasts disdain that movie. I can understand if you're that way too. I'm the same when someone mentioned Avatar to me :wacko:.

 

I hope you like the story you inspired when it hits the anthology . And if you ever get a few chapters pounded out, let me know . I'd be happy to beta it!

[W_L]

Aww, but Avatar the cartoon show was fun

 

Avatar the movie was odd and too 3D cinematic

 

I am similar with info dumps that are more Star Trek - esque. The thing about the info dumps is hard to avoid for techno-sci-fi stories.

 

I might just write a short of my own for the summer anthology.

[gabrielsknife]

Aww, but Avatar the cartoon show was fun

 

Avatar the movie was odd and too 3D cinematic

 

I am similar with info dumps that are more Star Trek - esque. The thing about the info dumps is hard to avoid for techno-sci-fi stories.

 

I might just write a short of my own for the summer anthology.

 

Lol on the Avatar; you totally should go for some anthology action . Your story could rival mine in it's fighting glory lol.

 

Info dumps are a bear IMHO, and I can't help but do them. I try my best not to overload a clip/chapter with them, but how else are my readers going to know how M'sk developed their long tails? Or how the Dymetic crystal is grown? Or what kind of regulations there are regarding Triptych communications? It's all in my head! :wacko:

 

The sting is when I have readers come up to me and ask for note-sheets >.<. It tells me that I either haven't explained something, or didn't explain something well enough for it to be remembered ;_;.

[corvus]

Stories like Romance of the Three Kingdoms and Water Margins are very different from the sort of martial arts epic Jin Yong wrote. The former two are historical fiction; Jin Yong's stuff is bildingsroman.

 

Why Jin Yong is successful is because he takes two or three extremely powerful themes and develops a way in which they can be expressed. His themes are identity, especially national and ethnic identity; as well as the vagaries of human fate. Because the Chinese are always obsessed with their national identity due to "foreign" invaders from Mongolians, Manchurians and Japanese, the former theme is vastly compelling. The latter theme has deep roots in Daoist and Buddhist thought. Both are extremely universal.

 

These themes are expressed within the paradigms of martial arts. What this means is that the martial arts fighting becomes an allegory for identity and human relationships. Yang Guo's unorthodox romantic Ancient Tomb kungfu, Guo Jing's down-to-earth and honest palms, Huang Rong's clever bamboo stick, etc. It's very similar to sports, in which playing style and games are allegorical to personality and interactions. These martial arts also satisfy the same desire that sports satisfies: i.e. guys loving fights and sports, etc.

 

In some ways, Jin Yong is the ultimate Chinese romantic, because his stories have little to do with Confucianism, which was and is the dominant system in China. Most of his heroes are orphans. They have extremely filial relations to their masters, etc., but these are part of the romantic world he constructs.

 

Jin Yong's formula works extremely well, but it's difficult to find a parallel for western audiences. For one, there's no way one can write about martial arts in the same way. Jin Yong includes all these references to eastern medicine, with the xue dao and pressure points etc. that resonate with eastern audiences but would sound rather silly to western audiences. The kind of King Arthur/LotR magic would work well, but that magic isn't wedded closely enough to the human. That's why Jin Yong will be a uniquely eastern phenomenon. The closest functional paradigm is the sort of magic found in Harry Potter's world -- the only drawback with that being that there's so few limits that it'd get ridiculous if one isn't careful.

 

I haven't read other wuxia novelists, so I can't comment on them.

[Procyon]

 

These themes are expressed within the paradigms of martial arts. What this means is that the martial arts fighting becomes an allegory for identity and human relationships. Yang Guo's unorthodox romantic Ancient Tomb kungfu, Guo Jing's down-to-earth and honest palms, Huang Rong's clever bamboo stick, etc. It's very similar to sports, in which playing style and games are allegorical to personality and interactions. These martial arts also satisfy the same desire that sports satisfies: i.e. guys loving fights and sports, etc.

 

 

Jin Yong's formula works extremely well, but it's difficult to find a parallel for western audiences. For one, there's no way one can write about martial arts in the same way. Jin Yong includes all these references to eastern medicine, with the xue dao and pressure points etc. that resonate with eastern audiences but would sound rather silly to western audiences. The kind of King Arthur/LotR magic would work well, but that magic isn't wedded closely enough to the human. That's why Jin Yong will be a uniquely eastern phenomenon. The closest functional paradigm is the sort of magic found in Harry Potter's world -- the only drawback with that being that there's so few limits that it'd get ridiculous if one isn't careful.

 

 

One of the great things about Jin Yong's novels, and which made me able to really enjoy them (though it was sometimes hard anyway because the translations weren't great) was that it wasn't only guys loving fights and sports, there were also many strong female characters who were into all this in the same way that the men were, who weren't just pretty bystanders or love interests. I think that is often lacking in western stories that might otherwise be seen as similar.

 

And you have a point about eastern medicine, though I think it'd be possible to write that kind of thing to suit western audiences as well -- it's possible to do it on screen, so it should be possible in writing, too, the question is just how. But I think there's an openness to that here in Europe at any rate, it's really just about how you write it. Eastern minset, western way of expressing it...