How do you date a religious gay guy?

[W_L]

I'm not talking about the traveled path between Christians and gays. We've probably discussed that ad nauseum on GA in the past few years.

 

I am currently dating a Jewish guy, who I absolutely adore and we both feel a strong connection with each other. He's a moderate Republican, who is worlds less conservative than me on a lot of issues

 

We have really long conversations over everything from tax theory (he's also a tax manager, which is perfect for me the tax specialist) to how we should raise our future kids (I know, it's kind of odd to both of us that we are going that far so quickly but it was instant intellectual attraction).

 

Now, I feel kind of strange, when we talk about Judaism and his religious side. He's a reformed Jew, so homosexuality is okay with his temple, but he also has pretty strong beliefs on the tenets of his faith. I can understand his strong beliefs and even encourage it, but part of me feels like I'm travelling through an alien world. I'm more aligned with Christianity, but on religion, I am much more spiritual than an advocate of any single religion.

 

I don't know how to work out this butterfly in my stomache over the Jewish religion stuff as it's something completely new to me. I've known plenty of Asians that date and marry Jewish people, but none of them are gay.

 

Can someone on here give me some pointers, ideas, and perhaps inspiration on how I can get this un-comfort out of my mind, because I seriously love this guy on so many levels and I feel like he feels the same way too.

 

Also, please don't debate the merits of religion on this topic, we have threads in the Soapbox for that. I am looking for help rather than a debate; I get enough of those with him

[JamesSavik]

Nope. been there, done that. been accused of being with the devil.

 

Rather date crazy people.

 

They can take medications and get better.

[Caedus]

W.L. how far along are you with your Jewish guy? If he's cool with it, you should see if you could go to his temple services, it would expose you more to reformation Judaism and hopefully get rid of your butterflies.

 

Also I'm sure you've done your research on Judaism already, but you should try having an intellectual discussion with him on different concepts in Judaism that are feeling the most alien to you right now. You get more comfortable with Judaism and the two of you have a mentally stimulating conversation that brings you closer together.

 

I know from my Christian background that I was surprised about how different things are in Judaism, but having someone to discuss (and if they have mettle) even debate a bit. For me, It helped me understand it better, especially after I did research on OT characters like Metatron and Lilith, characters not discussed in Mainstream Christianity.

Edited March 4, 2011 by Caedus

[Sara Alva]

Reform Judaism in particular tends to be a blend of traditions and spirituality. Many reform Jews choose which traditions to adhere to (e.g. keeping kosher, fasting on yom kippur, keeping kosher for passover) based on what they feel holds meaning to them. So, you'll find some who keep kosher, some who don't. Some who want to marry w/i the faith, some who have no problem marrying outside of it. Some even claim to be "agnostic Jews," participating in the cultural aspects of Judaism while forming their own personal beliefs in God.

 

I agree w/ Caedus; you could try going to his temple. Some temples even offer classes for interfaith relationships. Also, talk to him. Ask him what tenets of Judaism are important to him. Ask if your different beliefs bother him. If they don't . . . I'd say things'll probably work out

[Kavrik]

I think communication is key.

[paya]

If you can talk politics and taxes, you can talk religion as well. I know it might be hard but if you're uneasy about something, in my opinion, he's the first and most competent person to ask/discuss it with. And if he doesn't know the answer, there's always the rabbi you two can go to.

[old bob]

I'm a very very liberal jew, married with a catholic woman, I followed some rules of my religion in the past, having a lot of friends, catholics, protestants, agnostics, atheistics ASO. Today I'm too lazy to follow these rules.

I don't understand why you have this feeling about a religious gay guy. Is he more religious or more gay ?

Religious Jews have the same problem like other religious people following the Bible's rules. Some of them are bloody homophobes, some accept gayness as other liberal people.

What I can give as an advice is just to get more informations from him about what he feels and how he lives his religion.

Did you talk with hime about your feelings ? You should !

 

Some even claim to be "agnostic Jews," participating in the cultural aspects of Judaism while forming their own personal beliefs in God.

That's me ! Edited March 4, 2011 by old bob

[W_L]

Well, a couple things were brought up, when we were talking about future kids and how we look at religion.

 

He really wants them to brought up Jewish, Hebrew school and jewish parochial schooling. I was open to the idea as I think parochial schools would be good, Massachusetts Catholic schools are very open and several pretty inclusive of gay parents, so maybe jewish schools were the same. Then, we approached the subject of charity work and how we view things. I think charity should strive to make people's lives better through education and insight, not merely direct hand outs. He thought it was more about alleviating the current suffering of the people.

 

we talked about the stupid fish story (You know give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish and you will feed him a lifetime).

 

Then, we got back into discussing we volunteer with different groups, he's helping people with direct donations and soup kitchen work; I help people by teaching them how to manage their money and tax preparation. I do have one time of year that I do give directly, around November to December for Christmas to different organizations giving kids toys, because their families are too poor to afford presents. I feel that kids should be given that happy christmas morning.

 

He's not really big on the whole Christmas giving thing due to religious reasons and I don't know, it made me feel uneasy as to his view on Christmas.

 

That's basically a summary of one of our conversations, we talk about everything and branch off into a lot of wild tangents.

[old bob]

If I understand well your last post about your discussions, I can understand your feeling.

It's a cultural problem more than a religious one. I experimented it myself in my own family especially with Jews who practice their religion (what I dont !) , even if they are "liberal" and not strict like the orthodox ones.

Jews are proud. They are a chosen people and they needed this pride to resist against the persecutions in the past.

When you discuss with them, this pride is always in the back, mostly inconscious, For a "goy" who isn't aware of it, their attitude could appear as contemptuous or haughty.

I'm sure you feel it, also mostly inconscious, IMO, it's why you needed to ask.

If my guess is right, forget your feeling, dont try to talk with him about it, because he couldnt understand it !

Jewish unconscious is more than 2'000 years old and even an agnostic Jew (as I am) has to stand for.

 

My catholic wife often laugh about my own reactions

I remember a joke about it :

It's winter and cold outside. We are in a restaurant. Two jewish clients leave and forget to close the door.

An angry client inside call :" dont let the cold come in, close the door".

One of the Jews say to the other :

" again another bloody anti-semite" .

Edited March 4, 2011 by old bob

[paya]

If I understand well your last post about your discussions, I can understand your feeling.

It's a cultural problem more than a religious one. I experimented it myself in my own family especially with Jews who practice their religion (what I dont !) , even if they are "liberal" and not strict like the orthodox ones.

Jews are proud. They are a chosen people and they needed this pride to resist against the persecutions in the past.

When you discuss with them, this pride is always in the back, mostly inconscious, For a "goy" who isn't aware of it, their attitude could appear as contemptuous or haughty.

I'm sure you feel it, also mostly inconscious, IMO, it's why you needed to ask.

If my guess is right, forget your feeling, dont try to talk with him about it, because he couldnt understand it !

Jewish unconscious is more than 2'000 years old and even an agnostic Jew (as I am) has to stand for.

 

My catholic wife often laugh about my own reactions

I remember a joke about it :

It's winter and cold outside. We are in a restaurant. Two jewish clients leave and forget to close the door.

An angry client inside call :" dont let the cold come in, close the door".

One of the Jews say to the other :

" again another bloody anti-semite" .

 

So basically you're saying you can't say anything to Jews because they will twist it to an anti-semite harrassement? I know it's just a joke but if it had to illustrate the Jewish attitude then poor W.L.

 

 

 

[Sara Alva]

So basically you're saying you can't say anything to Jews because they will twist it to an anti-semite harrassement? I know it's just a joke but if it had to illustrate the Jewish attitude then poor W.L.

 

Don't really think that's the Jewish attitude.

 

A lot of jews have issues with Christmas . . . think it stems from feeling left out as a kid. I still say conversation and a willingness to compromise-- on his side as well as yours-- are key.

[old bob]

So basically you're saying you can't say anything to Jews because they will twist it to an anti-semite harrassement? I know it's just a joke but if it had to illustrate the Jewish attitude then poor W.L.

 

No...No for God's sake !

It's always the same problem with us Jews . It's difficult to explain jewish humour, mostly black humor, in which we make fun about ourselves.

A famous jewish humorist said in one of his jokes : " Only Jews should be allowed to tell or write jewish jokes, because they are the only ones able to understand them, with their double meanings"

My post could be a good example !!!

Sorry for you WL :wacko:. I could explain more in a message to you.

[Nephylim]

For my tuppence worth. Communication and compromise.

 

 

Talk about your views and find a way to walk the line between.

 

 

If there is something that you don't understand then try to clarify and if you really can't understand then respect because it's important to him and you love him

 

If there is something you don't want to do then tell him that you don't want to do it but you will wholly support him when he does it... as long as he respects your decidion not to do it yourself... it's important to you and he loves you

 

If there is something you don't agree with... agree to disagree... you love each other.

 

In the example you gave above

 

I think charity should strive to make people's lives better through education and insight, not merely direct hand outs. He thought it was more about alleviating the current suffering of the people.

 

Why can't it be both.

 

He's not really big on the whole Christmas giving thing due to religious reasons and I don't know, it made me feel uneasy as to his view on Christmas.

 

Is this about him or you? If he doesn't want to contribute to Christian charities then where's the problem. If he's uncomfortable with keeping Christmas then perhaps you can reach a compromise where you go along with his Hanukkah traditions and then he join in with your Christmas. Much of both is custom and culture rather than religion. I might be helpful to remember that Jews and Christians both have the same back story with the same characters. You've just written the novel in a different way.

 

 

 

 

 

[W_L]

No...No for God's sake !

It's always the same problem with us Jews . It's difficult to explain jewish humour, mostly black humor, in which we make fun about ourselves.

A famous jewish humorist said in one of his jokes : " Only Jews should be allowed to tell or write jewish jokes, because they are the only ones able to understand them, with their double meanings"

My post could be a good example !!!

Sorry for you WL :wacko:. I could explain more in a message to you.

 

I would love some pointers. I am completely out of my element with him, but it's so easy to talk to him at the same time. Believe me, Asians and especially Chinese people have our own moments, too. A US article a few years back once called us the "new Jews" of the United States.

 

I will compromise as much as I can, but we're both opinionated and I think that's what attracted us to each other in the first place.

[old bob]

I would love some pointers. I am completely out of my element with him, but it's so easy to talk to him at the same time.

Pointers ?

I can't give anything else than two proverbs I picked in a long list :

To know others, we must first know yourself.

Everyone knows where the shoe pinches.

 

To be "out of your element" should be a pleasure once you have accepted it !

[West Coast Dude]

I'm not talking about the traveled path between Christians and gays. We've probably discussed that ad nauseum on GA in the past few years.

 

I gave up not dating guys who are not Christians and into Jesus about 6 months ago. You can't have a relationship if you both don't have the same values, don't have the same views on sex or raising your kids. It is frustrating because there's not a lot of great amazing christian gay guys out there, but hopefully I will my one at some point. Hopefully sooner than later.

[One Cheap Suit]

I gave up not dating guys who are not Christians and into Jesus about 6 months ago. You can't have a relationship if you both don't have the same values, don't have the same views on sex or raising your kids. It is frustrating because there's not a lot of great amazing christian gay guys out there, but hopefully I will my one at some point. Hopefully sooner than later.

 

You gave up = you are no longer

 

not dating guys

 

(You are no longer not dating = you are dating)

 

who are not Christians and into Jesus

 

You are dating non-Christians? Or you are not dating non-Christians? Are you not dating atheists, or dating atheists?

 

what is this I don't even

 

Edited April 24, 2011 by bigdave976

[West Coast Dude]

You gave up = you are no longer

 

not dating guys

 

(You are no longer not dating = you are dating)

 

who are not Christians and into Jesus

 

You are dating non-Christians? Or you are not dating non-Christians? Are you not dating atheists, or dating atheists?

 

what is this I don't even

 

 

I used to date a variety of guys. Guys who believed that medicine was the answer to everything, athiest, guys who are part of the m2m alliance. After realizing it wasn't dating, I only wanted to date christian guys. Have not really met any great christian gay guys, therefore I have not been on a lot of dates recently.

 

Would I very much like to date gay christian guys, and eventually be in an LTR! Yes . No luck so far. Does this answer your question Dave?

[One Cheap Suit]

I used to date a variety of guys. Guys who believed that medicine was the answer to everything, athiest, guys who are part of the m2m alliance. After realizing it wasn't dating, I only wanted to date christian guys. Have not really met any great christian gay guys, therefore I have not been on a lot of dates recently.

 

Would I very much like to date gay christian guys, and eventually be in an LTR! Yes . No luck so far. Does this answer your question Dave?

 

 

i was just pulling your chain about all the double negatives, really. I hope you find some good compatible Christians to date.

[West Coast Dude]

i was just pulling your chain about all the double negatives, really. I hope you find some good compatible Christians to date.

 

Thanks - or maybe the guy I've liked for ears, who's gay will stop just wanting sex and want more And realize his best friend can offer more than friendship.

[W_L]

Thanks - or maybe the guy I've liked for ears, who's gay will stop just wanting sex and want more And realize his best friend can offer more than friendship.

 

If it happens, I'll send you a wedding gift

 

After so many years, why do you still keep the faith alive West Coast for that guy?

 

Just curious, because I also have a similar issue. I love my current boyfriend, but part of me still longs for my old friend. My current boyfriend and I have basically slowed down almost to a standstill as I feel like I don't love him enough to advance this relationship further. He's a sweet guy and a like-minded conservative, who has the same reservations against the Tea Party movement as me. Yet, I don't see myself spending the rest of my life with him,.

 

I thought I was over my love for my old friend long ago; it's an unrequited love on my part, because I don't know if my old friend's gay (he never dates or show signs of attraction to girls), he doesn't seem attracted to me, and we're polar opposites in terms of philosophies. We're still good friends, but there's no sexual component to it, not even gay daydreams on my part anymore. Those feelings of sexual lust from me were gone years ago, but the attraction and feeling of love remains.

 

The reason why is that my old friend complements me with our fights and debates. He's a strong liberal advocate and an arrogant asshole, which makes our fights fun and engaging. We compete over everything and we make each other better due to it. He's not the guy I want in bed with me; he's the guy I want to grow old with.

[West Coast Dude]

If it happens, I'll send you a wedding gift

 

After so many years, why do you still keep the faith alive West Coast for that guy?

 

Just curious, because I also have a similar issue. I love my current boyfriend, but part of me still longs for my old friend. My current boyfriend and I have basically slowed down almost to a standstill as I feel like I don't love him enough to advance this relationship further. He's a sweet guy and a like-minded conservative, who has the same reservations against the Tea Party movement as me. Yet, I don't see myself spending the rest of my life with him,.

 

I thought I was over my love for my old friend long ago; it's an unrequited love on my part, because I don't know if my old friend's gay (he never dates or show signs of attraction to girls), he doesn't seem attracted to me, and we're polar opposites in terms of philosophies. We're still good friends, but there's no sexual component to it, not even gay daydreams on my part anymore. Those feelings of sexual lust from me were gone years ago, but the attraction and feeling of love remains.

 

The reason why is that my old friend complements me with our fights and debates. He's a strong liberal advocate and an arrogant asshole, which makes our fights fun and engaging. We compete over everything and we make each other better due to it. He's not the guy I want in bed with me; he's the guy I want to grow old with.

 

Because he's my first love.

Because when he held my hand, my heart stopped.

When I looked into his eyes, the world was a better place.

When he talks to me, when he's around I can do anything.

No matter what goes wrong in my life, he was there to support me through everything.

I have never met a guy who can light a candle to him, it's been him all these years and probalby will be. I just can't see myself with another guy, I've tried but I just can't bring myself.

 

It's funny, I had a talk with my straight friend about my sexual attraction to the guy I've loved for years, I mean he's a good looking guy. But I mean it's not like I'm dying to just bang him into the next century. I don't know I've always seen sex with him as making love, not hot or dirty or anything, just right. I might get to see him this summer again, I'm nervous but happy. Lots of things could happen between now and then and I pray that we could have a happy ending.

[John Galaor]

No...No for God's sake !

It's always the same problem with us Jews . It's difficult to explain jewish humour, mostly black humor, in which we make fun about ourselves.

A famous jewish humorist said in one of his jokes : " Only Jews should be allowed to tell or write jewish jokes, because they are the only ones able to understand them, with their double meanings"

My post could be a good example !!!

Sorry for you WL :wacko:. I could explain more in a message to you.

 

those Jews with a sense of humor, are the more intelligent Jews. It takes some intelligence to have a sense of humor. This happens all the time with every sort of people. To have a sense of humor means we understand our limitations, our weakness, and the relativity of social truths.

I had been arguing with Marxist people, and in general with many educated people in the groups. Well, due to some problems with this discussions, I devised the concept "kosher culture" to refer in general to the believes of people, even those that think they are scientists of defending science theories. I took the idea from the kosher rules. That is people believe this or that, about his own religion or his own culture, or about some widespread ideas on science, or any other field. Well, they feel threatened if you argue seriously in a philosophical way that contradicts his thinking.

What I mean is not the Jews, but is most of the people that behaves this way. They behave with the ideas they have as they were "truths" in the same way a strict Jews has for their kosher rules . So, in a way, most people behaves the same way.

I had observed this also here, in this group of GA when I say something that is not seen as "regular kosher doctrine".

I mean, as people that can be classified in a group, we share some "tenets", some theories, that we believe are true as it were kosher rules. When someone like me comes out telling something that they had never heard of, they feel like I were rejecting the kosher rules.

 

The question is that very little people has a sense of relativism. It also happens among people that is arguing about scientific matters.

Any assertion, any theory, has to be true. Then, shut up.

[John Galaor]

Thanks - or maybe the guy I've liked for ears, who's gay will stop just wanting sex and want more And realize his best friend can offer more than friendship.

 

by more than friendship, ¿you mean love?

Love is perhaps the result of a flood of oxitocine in the blood stream, that comes as a consequence of intense and prolonged lustful craving. Then, all this flooding began to fade slowly, as the craving lust gets weaker. After all this turmoil of hormones, it rest the capacity to live together. This is not an easy task, for many people have a bent for bitching those around them. And it is also rare that even the most submissive persons can bear this bitching for a long time.

Then, I suppose the enemy for living together can be identified as strong believes. Unless those believes were identical, a rare occurrence. Then flexibility must be the key among people raised in great cities, for the "kosher thinking" is less strict in great cities.

 

Then, to find a clone of your same "kosher thinking" is not easy either. Then, it would be like a miracle if you find someone skeptical that he would not mind a dime about this or that dogmatic trifle.

[John Galaor]

If it happens, I'll send you a wedding gift

 

After so many years, why do you still keep the faith alive West Coast for that guy?

----------------

The reason why is that my old friend complements me with our fights and debates. He's a strong liberal advocate and an arrogant asshole, which makes our fights fun and engaging. We compete over everything and we make each other better due to it. He's not the guy I want in bed with me; he's the guy I want to grow old with.

 

I think I can understand this former paragraph. There is a component in our mind in respect to bedroom activities. Depending on the needs of each one, one gay can be a receiver or a giver. If one is a receiver one needs this strength, the manly essence in him. It is like we are lacking of some essential stuff in our blood. That is what a giver can give us. On the other hand, if we are givers, we need a recipient, a hungry partner that need all this we have in excess.

Then, the problematic part of this theory is that some of us are unstable. We can be takers for a period, and feel wholly full of strength and manly stuff to feed others. Then, If I am living with a giver, always full manliness, always looking for a willing receptor, problems would arise after a period of living together.

 

This problem also arises among heterosexual couples. It is assumed the male is the giver. In the first phase of living together, all is right. Each member of the couple has its role; one is a giver, the other is a taker. Then, there is a problem with the receptors of neurotransmitters in the brain. They can get exhausted and weakened. Perhaps many of those receptors can die of overwork. So, the orgasms are not as intense as before. They had lost some their former knockout. Then, for some reason, the brain gets tired of all those pyrotechnics, it needs a period of rest. After a period of rest more or less prolonged, some of the neurotransmitters get cured and we are able to start anew withe a new episode of falling in love.

We are not all made the same. While one member of the couple gets tired, the other is not, and it starts to build up problems. The one that has not tired, starts to feel frustrated.

 

Then this is when one tells the other, "you do not love me by my personality; you only love me by the sex."

Then the other replied, "what are you saying?"

It comes ready the answer, "I do not like to be a sex toy."

And the rusting of living together starts to build up.

Then the giver says, "you are getting tired of me, aren't you?"

And it comes the reply, "Well, it is not exactly tired. But I am still feeling a little hurt of yesterday."

"yesterday? We did nothing yesterday. It was three days ago."

"Anyway, you are rather brutish."

"You did not say that when we started with this."

And so on.

 

I mean, the receptors can get exhausted and knocked out. And some brains are more prone to have receptors tired or wrecked up than others.

 

I remember a beautiful and intelligent young lady in this group that wrote, "love is like a drug. We can get hooked on it, and forget all the rest." I agree with this. But is also like a drug in that our brains can get tired of this huge floods of neurotransmitters. We cannot stand this for long periods of time; our brains get tired. If you had any notice about how a new couple works, you had heard the complains. On a side, women say, "man are always thinking of the same thing". The men complain "women are too often with a headache."

 

We are not all made equal. We are very similar, but not equal.

It is a little bit like playing tennis. One can get easily tired in half an hour, while others can play for a few hours, even under a heat of 90 to 95 F degrees.