Poor Man's Son

[centexhairysub]

Great new chapter for Poor Man's Son, I really like the current progression. I am going to hate that Jeanine and Tiffany don't end up together, really Mark, you just couldn't let the lesbians be happy???? I do want Wade to be the father and I think that will work better for the story in the long run. I really would be happiest if Robbie was the father of Jeanine's baby although Cody being the dad would be great drama...

 

I think Will is right and Tony is going to be in for a rough time in his life. With the weight of his past causing some of his internal issues, I think that Tony will be a really angst filled addition to this series...

 

Mark, hope you are doing better with your personal time and getting a little more balance to your life... Keep up the great work...

[Daddydavek]

I had the same problem with the site being slow today too. However, I was glad to find the latest chapter this evening.

 

I thought the way Will handled being the "coach" was extremely well written and his reaction to the event and the baby was real. Nice job. His good mood carried into the waiting room and how he handled the crowd, including his brother and Tony. If Will's perception is accurate, it appears Tony will have some more problems trying not to be like his dad.

 

Matt and Wade both dads? Jeanine and Tina de-coupled? Gathan still wallowing in separation anxiety? So many loose ends.

[Mark Arbour]

Great new chapter for Poor Man's Son, I really like the current progression. I am going to hate that Jeanine and Tiffany don't end up together, really Mark, you just couldn't let the lesbians be happy???? I do want Wade to be the father and I think that will work better for the story in the long run. I really would be happiest if Robbie was the father of Jeanine's baby although Cody being the dad would be great drama...

 

I think Will is right and Tony is going to be in for a rough time in his life. With the weight of his past causing some of his internal issues, I think that Tony will be a really angst filled addition to this series...

 

Mark, hope you are doing better with your personal time and getting a little more balance to your life... Keep up the great work...

 

I'm doing better with the balance of life, but I'm still busy. Why would I let lesbians be happy? How many happy lesbians do you know? *ducks*

 

I had the same problem with the site being slow today too. However, I was glad to find the latest chapter this evening.

 

I thought the way Will handled being the "coach" was extremely well written and his reaction to the event and the baby was real. Nice job. His good mood carried into the waiting room and how he handled the crowd, including his brother and Tony. If Will's perception is accurate, it appears Tony will have some more problems trying not to be like his dad.

 

Matt and Wade both dads? Jeanine and Tina de-coupled? Gathan still wallowing in separation anxiety? So many loose ends.

 

Will's had it easy, as has been noted, with his ability to be out at an early age, and to do it easily. Tony won't be so lucky.

[methodwriter85]

Will's had it easy, as has been noted, with his ability to be out at an early age, and to do it easily. Tony won't be so lucky.

 

Doesn't Missouri tend towards more conservative? And judging by his background, I'm betting serious money he went to an homophobic all-boys Catholic school. Of course it'd be harder for Tony to deal with being gay. Not to mention that he basically blames his dad being a gay slut for dying on him when he was 3.

 

That said, I'm hoping that Will is finally getting the inkling that Tony is NOT real boyfriend material, at least for now. Other than attending a college 700 miles away, it's going to take him a LONG time before he could comfortably hold a boyfriend's hand in public. Will, I can't see him really being cool with that. Especially since it looks like guys at Harvard-Westlake are fairly open about being gay, and there he could meet a boyfriend who isn't going to flinch if he tries to take his hand in public. (There's something to be said about the fact that Will's of that generation where you can start seeing guys being openly affectionate in public, in places that aren't actually the gayborhood.)

 

PrivateTim mentioned JJ running in place, and I thought that was something to think about. Does JJ really need a major emotional growth spurt right now, especially since he's not the narrator? JJ's 14 and in 9th grade. JJ's also in a sport that doesn't allow him to socialize much; therefore somewhat inhibiting his social skills. Him being immature works as a good balance and dramatic foil to Will's precocious maturity. Will's on one end, physically and emotionally, on the growth development spectrum, whereas JJ's on the other side. I think it works well to keep JJ as still being a little boy while Will's already grown into a young man. You get both sides represented- the guy you knew in 9th grade who seemed more like he should have been in 11th or 12th, and the guy in 9th grade who seemed to be very much still a little boy, both physically and emotionally.

 

I'm sure when JJ is 18 years old and graduating from high school, he'll think about what he was like when he was 14 and cringe, like most of us. There's one incredibly embarrassing 9th grade yearbook picture floating around out there. Let's just say the 15-year old me thought it would be really cool to have a picture taken of me meditating.

 

It wasn't. And it showed up in my senior yearbook. Ugh.

Edited November 7, 2011 by methodwriter85

[centexhairysub]

I agree that being a top level figure skater will make it harder to make real friends and spend time with them but I am not sure I agree about the lack of social skills. I had a close friend that was nationally ranked in that sport for almost ten years, never made it to the very top, but they had to spend alot of time with coaches, choreographers, officials, sponsers, press, etc... It made my friend very socially adept at a really young age. He freely admits now that he had very few actual friends from that time but had tons of interactions on all levels daily. If anything, being in a sport like that causes you to grow up faster than normal; you may not make lasting friendships but you have lots of superficial encounters that you have to learn to handle all the time...

Edited November 8, 2011 by centexhairysub

[methodwriter85]

Alright, that's a good point. I think I'll qualify it to say that JJ is comfortable about coaches, judges, and officials, but he's not so good around people his own age because of the lack of typical teenage socializing. JJ can handle superficial acquaintances; probably not so good on serious friendships/relationships.

 

In any event, JJ has been consistently written as being somewhat immature for his age, and I think it's fine for him to be that way. JJ should grow up on his own schedules; besides, if he were totally mature and self-assured, what kind of character growth could Mark write for the guy when it's his turn for a story circa 2006?

[PrivateTim]

That said, I'm hoping that Will is finally getting the inkling that Tony is NOT real boyfriend material, at least for now. Other than attending a college 700 miles away, it's going to take him a LONG time before he could comfortably hold a boyfriend's hand in public. Will, I can't see him really being cool with that. Especially since it looks like guys at Harvard-Westlake are fairly open about being gay, and there he could meet a boyfriend who isn't going to flinch if he tries to take his hand in public. (There's something to be said about the fact that Will's of that generation where you can start seeing guys being openly affectionate in public, in places that aren't actually the gayborhood.)

 

Hmmm, well not everyone wants to hold hands with their boyfriend, husband or wife in public some people just aren't into it. A lot of people, PDA just isn't their thing and romance isn't their thing. Most guys I know are not romantic, they just do romantic things because they know their wife/girlfriend expect it.

 

Also don't be confused that just because a guy (or girl) CAN be open at H-W that everyone wants to be. There are a lot more reasons that people keep their orientation private than fear of being bullied at school.

[methodwriter85]

Right. I'm just saying that Will's going to meet guys that are openly gay like he is, and I've found that guys who have always been pretty open about their sexuality tend to expect the same from their boyfriends. I just can't see Will putting up with a total closet case in the long-term, who doesn't just deny it in public but denies it in private as well.

 

I like Tony as a character; I'm just not into him being Will's boyfriend. At least for now. When they're both in their 20's and Tony's comfortable with his sexuality, I think it could work.

 

It's interesting watching Mark, who came from a very homophobic generation that came of age in the 1980's, writing from the point of view from a generation of guys who are increasingly okay with the various spectrum of sexuality, to the point where more and more guys can call themselves "straightish" without a sense of shame or fear, and where more guys have positive coming out stories, or were basically never even in the closet to begin with. Adam Phillips, the author of Cross-Currents, has talked at considerable length about the subject, noting how it contrasts even from his own not-so-distant adolescence.

[centexhairysub]

Hmmm... Well I grew up in a very small town in Texas, population was 6000. I am now 46 years old so most of my growing up was in the late 70's and early 80's and I was always out. Now, I didn't go around holding hands with a guy or kissing him in the school hallway, that was discouraged even for the heterosexual couples but was also never beaten up or seriously bullied either. Yes, there were the guys that had to make a comment, it seemed like everyday, but often they were the sames one that would call or show up at 2:00 a.m. to play. All of the little old ladies loved me and they never seemed to have a problem with me being gay. The ones that usually had an issue were either those that ere insecure about themselves or their kids. I have never been a big believer in public displays of affection. I think it might be more because I was brought up with a certain set of manners and my grandmother would have been horrified up it.

 

This last bit is to Mark and the issue of lesbian happiness. In my experience, lesbian couples tend to be much more stable and happy than most male couples or even heterosexual couples. I think in general lesbian couples are more grounded and understand what they want out of a relationship and what it takes to make it work than others... Just my opinion.

[methodwriter85]

They're also a lesbian couple in a soap opera. You gotta keep that in mind. Stable couples like Claire and Jack don't get a lot of story time, because stable, committed relationships aren't exactly the stuff of soaps. And it's been telegraphed since Millenium that Jeanine isn't the most stable of people, so it's not like it came out of nowhere.

 

For me, when I was 17, I saw a gay public display of affection that made me feel a lot better about being gay. I wrote about it, and it was posted on the I'm From Driftwood site. (I do NOT look like the guy the artist drew there; however he got the college gay couple pretty spot on.)

 

http://www.imfromdri...from-newark-de/

 

There was just something about seeing a gay couple, on a pizza date like any other college couple complete with a chaste, affectionate kiss, that really made me realize that I wasn't doomed to life as a Queer As Folk circuit boi because I was gay. It was a normalization of my feelings outside of watching Jack on Dawson's Creek, I think, and that's why I really appreciate gay PDA's outside of the gayborhoods. I'm betting I'm not the only gay former teenager who was positively influenced by seeing a masculine-looking couple being affectionate with each other in public.

 

I'm not saying you NEED to be that way, but it's great to see that gay couples who want to be affectionate with each in public can do so without getting bashed. At least in certain areas.

Edited November 9, 2011 by methodwriter85

[B1ue]

Hmmm... Well I grew up in a very small town in Texas, population was 6000. I am now 46 years old so most of my growing up was in the late 70's and early 80's and I was always out. Now, I didn't go around holding hands with a guy or kissing him in the school hallway, that was discouraged even for the heterosexual couples but was also never beaten up or seriously bullied either. Yes, there were the guys that had to make a comment, it seemed like everyday, but often they were the sames one that would call or show up at 2:00 a.m. to play. All of the little old ladies loved me and they never seemed to have a problem with me being gay. The ones that usually had an issue were either those that ere insecure about themselves or their kids.

It's been my experience that, contrary to what Nifty would have us believe, it's easier to warp the circumstances of a smaller community towards acceptance than anywhere else. After all, as long as you don't make waves or try to stand out too much, as you didn't, you're one of their own. And almost anything can be forgiven once that's true.

 

As a for instance, while I wasn't out as Gay until I'd almost left home (not becuase I cared about what the community would think, but because if my parent's decided to make my life hell, they still could, and so it wasn't worth the risk), my family was almost the entirety of the non-white population in the town I spent my teenage years. Once we got past being "new," which took oh, seven years or so, racism was almost non-existent. Most people saw us, see us, as locals first and Mexicans a very distant second. As for being gay, pfft. I'm Mary and Roger's son, Sandra's little brother, Teresa's cousin, and Candle's uncle. It's no big deal next to that. Last time I went home, the local parish priest asked me when I was going to settle down with a nice guy, and make my parents stop worrying.

 

I like Tony as a character; I'm just not into him being Will's boyfriend. At least for now. When they're both in their 20's and Tony's comfortable with his sexuality, I think it could work.

 

I have to agree with you here. Tony and Will are in completely different places in their lives right now. And, honestly, I don't think they'll catch up with each other even in their twenties. By the time Will is ready to leave school and start making a career for himself, Tony will (probably) have already settled into a life, and might be thinking about getting married and starting a family. Maybe in their thirties they'll reconnect.

[Westie]

Mark, these last few chapters (since you have been taking your time with them) are SOOOOOO much better. the quality of the writing is back.

 

I still think (apologies) that this is the worst in the series, but things are definitely looking up !!

 

Thanks for all your hard work though - in spite of your busy life etc, you still find time to keep us updated.

[PrivateTim]

I don't think it is the "worst" in the series, although I am not sure which story I would call "the worst", if such a thing even exists in the CAP series. Maybe If it Fits but I've really enjoyed Will as a narrator just like I enjoyed Brad in his teen angst.

 

I wouldn't mind another story with JP as a narrator to see how his world view has changed since the 1960's.

[methodwriter85]

I think Will became an enjoyable narrator when Mark stepped away from just the sexual stuff and let us know about Will the person who likes marine biology and Jolly Ranchers, not Will the 13-year old sexpot who likes to surf and smoke pot. I have a friend who told me he stopped reading because it seemed like Will was turning into a Brad Redux, and I think Mark has in recent chapters really stressed the differences between Brad and Will, to the point where this doesn't feel like a Be Rad Redux. I do feel bad that Gathan essentially got eclipsed- I think Gathan had the potential to be a pretty interesting character. But the problem is, as someone pointed out, Gathan didn't really offer anything new as a narrator that we haven't already covered. I mean, Will was able to offer the viewpoint of an emerging generation of guys that were coming out at earlier and earlier ages, which hadn't been done yet- no protagonist had come out earlier than the age of 18 before Will. Having an abused Hayes boy from a poor background with temper and sexual issues has been done so many times, and done well. And Matt already covered the whole "hockey at Stanford University" deal.

 

My other problem with the story is that the mid-point felt meandering- I think this would have worked better as a twentysomething or thirtysomething chapter story, due its nature as a transitional piece. I do think the story went on an uptick once we met Tony and Matt/Wade came back in, and there was more of a focus.

 

Anyway, I really liked this chapter. I loved the details of Will's hoody, the Adderall, the flip-flops- you really made Will feel like a 2000's teenager. The only thing that would have made it better would have been that Will was wearing a DC hoody. Although he could have been- because Will isn't a fashion maven like Brad, it makes sense that he's not mentioning every single brand that he's wearing the Brad does.

 

The epiphany at the end was great- great closure to Will's character arc in this story.

Edited November 13, 2011 by methodwriter85

[Daddydavek]

I don't think it is the "worst" in the series, although I am not sure which story I would call "the worst", if such a thing even exists in the CAP series. Maybe If it Fits but I've really enjoyed Will as a narrator just like I enjoyed Brad in his teen angst.

 

I wouldn't mind another story with JP as a narrator to see how his world view has changed since the 1960's.

 

 

I heartily second both paragraphs above!

[Hermetically Sealed]

I don't really agree that Gathan offered nothing new, or that Will necessarily does. To be honest I liked getting someone outside of the close family, it was one of the reasons I liked Matt so much. Personally i found the whole poor guy being brought into the family and dealing with the slow alienation from his past far more interesting than the drama of a 13 yo. But that's just me, I guess. Teen age drama is just dull and common to me. LoL

 

ETA: I do agree that Will is more palatable in the last few chapters than before. Seems more cohesive? I guess that's the right word.

Edited November 13, 2011 by Hermetically Sealed

[Mari]

I like Will's POV as well as insights to the 'adults' who we also saw grow up. Gathan was ok but I prefer Will with little Gathan snippets. At times, reading this makes me wince in sympathy for Will, I remember long long ago being his age and the stupid things I did/said/thought that made perfect sense then, now being really immature when I think back, (even for such a mature kid.) I still was thinking that Brad would have a problem with Will and Tony having sex when it was right in his face... and especially the way Will was treated. I've never wanted to smack a fictional character before but seriously? no condom again, you would have thought he would have learned from the first time, lol.

[Mark Arbour]

This story is really about both of these guys (Gathan and Will) developing and maturing. With Gathan, we have a tortured individual who's finally found some peace due to therapy, and love. With Will, you've got a guy struggling to match his emotional maturity to his physical maturity.

[Mark Arbour]

I like Will's POV as well as insights to the 'adults' who we also saw grow up. Gathan was ok but I prefer Will with little Gathan snippets. At times, reading this makes me wince in sympathy for Will, I remember long long ago being his age and the stupid things I did/said/thought that made perfect sense then, now being really immature when I think back, (even for such a mature kid.) I still was thinking that Brad would have a problem with Will and Tony having sex when it was right in his face... and especially the way Will was treated. I've never wanted to smack a fictional character before but seriously? no condom again, you would have thought he would have learned from the first time, lol.

 

I think we have an idealized view of condom use in the gay community. While Will and Tony certainly don't have an ideal relationship, they do trust each other. They were both tested, and are both "clean", unless one of them is lying. I'm thinking that for guys that age, that's pretty responsible.

[methodwriter85]

This story is really about both of these guys (Gathan and Will) developing and maturing. With Gathan, we have a tortured individual who's finally found some peace due to therapy, and love. With Will, you've got a guy struggling to match his emotional maturity to his physical maturity.

 

Right. But it felt like Gathan got sidelined in favor of developing Will's character instead. I think the dual narration wasn't a bad idea, and at times it worked- but by the time we got around to the Paris trip, Gathan just started seeming like a distraction in the overall Will Schluter Show.

 

I don't really agree that Gathan offered nothing new, or that Will necessarily does. To be honest I liked getting someone outside of the close family, it was one of the reasons I liked Matt so much. Personally i found the whole poor guy being brought into the family and dealing with the slow alienation from his past far more interesting than the drama of a 13 yo. But that's just me, I guess. Teen age drama is just dull and common to me. LoL

I have to agree with you on that. On paper, I think Gathan is the more interesting character. But once he got put with Kristin, everything was focused on that instead of Gathan's underlying issues; when we weren't focusing on Will.

 

Here are where the problems I had with Will as narrator, at least for most of the story....

 

1. Mark essentially created a character with a perfect childhood- there is no emotional baggage there, and there's nothing this kid has ever been denied in his entire life. While I'm not saying that Will needed to have an effed up life to be interesting, you still have someone who's never struggled a day in his life, over anything. (Yes, I realize there was the Paris plot, but it doesn't seem to have affected him all that much.)

 

2. Because of that, his whining about love interests was just...I don't know. I mean, it was realistic for a 13-year old, but it just isn't that compelling to watch a 9th grade kid with a perfect life angst over his love interests. Will's interaction with his parents and with JJ were a lot more interesting, I think. As well as when we learned that Will's interests go beyond sex, pot, and surfing. That's when he started to feel more like a real character.

 

3. I feel like Mark wanted to write a 17-year old Will, but because Mark didn't want to jump the story to 2003, he instead decided to write Will as a 13-year old with a very 17-year old look who hung out with mostly college-aged guys. I liked Will more when he started hanging out with people who were his own age, and he was dealing with more of the typical 9th grade concerns.

 

Overall, I think Will improved as narrator, but I still think Mark should have waited until circa 2003 to get over to Will's point-of-view.

 

But since he didn't, I think the way the story is tying up now works pretty well, and we've definitely been on an uptick.

Edited November 14, 2011 by methodwriter85

[Daddydavek]

Having whined in the past about how 'adult' Will was being portrayed and being smacked upside the head with replies reminding me that some kids were really more advanced than others throughout puberty, I bought into the premise. After reflecting, I decided that yes I did know (remember) some kids who were 14 and easily passed for 18, both back in the dark ages of the early 1960's and when I met some of my son's friends back in 1991 when he was 12. So the story has progressed and Will has become a better understood person based on his history and character as developed by Mark.

 

I get the feeling, that Kristen turned out to be a much more pivotal character in Gathan's life than Mark originally envisioned and then got stuck in his long range romance, with separation anxiety and all the other angst that goes with trying to maintain a long range relationship. Sometimes, making believeable characters produces some unintended consequences. Life like fiction, happens.

 

One reviewer opined that the writing got better when the output was not so frenetic and that is probably true, but the writing was never a problem. As I understand it, the problem was where the story was going or not going and that had to be worked out and I think Mark has done a credible job.

[Hermetically Sealed]

Right. But it felt like Gathan got sidelined in favor of developing Will's character instead. I think the dual narration wasn't a bad idea, and at times it worked- but by the time we got around to the Paris trip, Gathan just started seeming like a distraction in the overall Will Schluter Show.

Exactly. We were introduced to the story as Gathan's point of view. Then, 5 chapters in Will suddenly gets a spot. By the time Paris came into it, Gathan was only getting a few walk on scenes, then ultimately forgotten except a paragraph or two to remind us he was an emotional wreck. It's not too terribly hard to see why some might feel Will usurped the story.

 

I think that if the two narrator format had been in at the beginning, it would have better prepared expectations of what the story would be like, or perhaps had the chapters alternated; one being all Gathan, the next all Will. To be honest though, dual narratives are hard to follow when the storylines seem disparate. I mean, outside of a couple of instances, it wasn't two views of a related story, but completely different stories mashed together.

 

Well, enough rambling. I really don't want to give the impression that I didn't like the story. I have yet to see anything that would stop me from reading your work, and I do appreciate the time you put into it. In the end, it's not about fulfilling what I want, but producing the story you desire.

[methodwriter85]

Exactly. We were introduced to the story as Gathan's point of view. Then, 5 chapters in Will suddenly gets a spot. By the time Paris came into it, Gathan was only getting a few walk on scenes, then ultimately forgotten except a paragraph or two to remind us he was an emotional wreck. It's not too terribly hard to see why some might feel Will usurped the story.

 

I think that if the two narrator format had been in at the beginning, it would have better prepared expectations of what the story would be like, or perhaps had the chapters alternated; one being all Gathan, the next all Will. To be honest though, dual narratives are hard to follow when the storylines seem disparate. I mean, outside of a couple of instances, it wasn't two views of a related story, but completely different stories mashed together.

I agree. The dual narrations in "Bloodlines" and in "The Box" worked well because the stories meshed well together. It also helped having Matt out of commission for the time that Wade took over, with Matt coming back in to finish out the story.

 

It didn't work so well with "Poor Man's Son", and I think that might be the heart of why. Will's part seemed like it was going to be a nice B story about cute puppy summer love compared to the heavy angst of Gathan overcoming an abusive childhood, and then by Paris the Will story swallowed the entire story.

 

I felt like I had signed on for one story, and then suddenly Mark had signed us up for another story instead. That was hard to get over.

 

Well, enough rambling. I really don't want to give the impression that I didn't like the story. I have yet to see anything that would stop me from reading your work, and I do appreciate the time you put into it. In the end, it's not about fulfilling what I want, but producing the story you desire.

 

 

I like the story as well. I also realize that it's a transition/introduction- Mark's moving away from Robbie and Brad's generation to introduce Generation 4. There are a lot of things that go into it- he has to develop the background characters into main drivers of the story, and he also has to take into consideration how different Generation Y is from Brad and Robbie's Baby Boomer Generation. He's writing a generation that is not his own; too young to have been his peers, but too old to have been his kid's generation. Things might have gotten awkward, but I think everything's coming together nicely. I really feel like, barring Will's friend calling his brother a "space cadet" or an 18-year old in 2000 referencing the Six Million Dollar Man, Mark's been doing a damn good job recreating the mindset of the co-hort of people that were born in the mid/late-1980's as they were hitting the opening years of their adolescence at the turn of the new millenium. The Addies and the hoodie with the flip-flops really, really sold it for me. All we need now is a bleach blond Eminem wannabee.

 

Things I loved-

 

1. The JJ and Will interplay. Jeanine thought JJ was an outcast because he was short. The reality was entirely different, and I thought the sibling bitchiness was spot-on for siblings that are that close in age and with interests that don't really mesh that well.

 

2. Darius giving up his spot at Annapolis to attend Santa Clara, and the scene where he tells JJ and Will why. I'd been dying for some sibling interaction between the three brothers, and that scene was great.

 

3. Stefan brutally laying it out to Will about his chances of having a serious relationship with John Hobart. He needed to heart that one, badly.

 

4. Wade's talk with Will. I loved how Matt took to JJ and Wade took to Will.

 

5. Will's geeky talk about sharks and the like. That was about a 1,000 times more interesting than Will's little striptease, and for me that was when Will finally started feeling like a real character.

[methodwriter85]

I came across this....

 

I have to agree with you here. Tony and Will are in completely different places in their lives right now. And, honestly, I don't think they'll catch up with each other even in their twenties. By the time Will is ready to leave school and start making a career for himself, Tony will (probably) have already settled into a life, and might be thinking about getting married and starting a family. Maybe in their thirties they'll reconnect.

I was with you there, Blue, but then I thought about it. Think about the CAP modus operandi. Obviously, Will is going to have a threesome with Rainn and Tony when he's about college-aged, and that will result in a baby. Or two. Come on now, Mark's gotta build the next generation somehow. LOL. ;-)

 

Nah, but seriously. It's funny how much I originally hated the idea of Wade and Matt becoming dads at 21. I'm still not thrilled with it, but if Mark does that with Will, it'll officially become a CAP Saga Rule- a gay man will become a daddy around college aged when he experiments having sex with a woman.

[Westie]

Wow. Such an.... abrupt ending.

great chapter though