Poor Man's Son

[Daisy139]

I do think John can be held responsible for what he did - he broke a promise, and at 12 everybody knows a promise is a promise... and he was old enough to understand that this was really important to Will.

 

Strangely, the Gathan-Stef episode didn't bother me at all. I found it hot actually. I wonder if that's a) because I'm totally in love with Stef, or because I see this whole age of consent thing way different...maybe it's because I'm European? The age difference doesn't bother me (Mr. Daisy is 12 years older than me and I don't feel like we're even different generations)...

 

I am wondering why Stef didn't insist on a condom ... fully knowing that Gathan wasn't a virgin anymore (and vice versa, at 17, Gathan doesn't have the excuse of not having known either....)...I'm also confused why Gathan didn't ask Stef if this is ok with Stef being in a relationship and all, but then again maybe it's common knowledge that Stef is, um, the sociable kind... it probably is.

 

What I'm a bit foggy on is American age of onset laws. So, I was told that [21 and over] and [under 18] will send me straight to jail. So, with what's been said before in this thread, does that mean different states will allow a 21+ year old to sleep with let's say a 16/17-year old? Not that I'm complaining. Well, I'm monogamous....just wondering. I don't think it's necessarily a wrong thing...just figuring out what's legal and what's not...

 

Edit to add - I loved the dual narration. Esp. how Gathan and Will really sound like two very different personalities, not just based on what they do and say but on how they talk. Nice writing!

[PrivateTim]

I do think John can be held responsible for what he did - he broke a promise, and at 12 everybody knows a promise is a promise... and he was old enough to understand that this was really important to Will.

 

Strangely, the Gathan-Stef episode didn't bother me at all. I found it hot actually. I wonder if that's a) because I'm totally in love with Stef, or because I see this whole age of consent thing way different...maybe it's because I'm European? The age difference doesn't bother me (Mr. Daisy is 12 years older than me and I don't feel like we're even different generations)...

 

I am wondering why Stef didn't insist on a condom ... fully knowing that Gathan wasn't a virgin anymore (and vice versa, at 17, Gathan doesn't have the excuse of not having known either....)...I'm also confused why Gathan didn't ask Stef if this is ok with Stef being in a relationship and all, but then again maybe it's common knowledge that Stef is, um, the sociable kind... it probably is.

 

What I'm a bit foggy on is American age of onset laws. So, I was told that [21 and over] and [under 18] will send me straight to jail. So, with what's been said before in this thread, does that mean different states will allow a 21+ year old to sleep with let's say a 16/17-year old? Not that I'm complaining. Well, I'm monogamous....just wondering. I don't think it's necessarily a wrong thing...just figuring out what's legal and what's not...

 

Edit to add - I loved the dual narration. Esp. how Gathan and Will really sound like two very different personalities, not just based on what they do and say but on how they talk. Nice writing!

 

Every one knows a promise and every one breaks promises, but that is a different issue from whether or not John understands he should apologize to Will. We are talking a 6th grader here and I think people expect far too much from him

 

As to Age of Consent laws for sex, all 50 states set their own ages. The age of consent in most states is 16, 34 states have 16 as the AOC in part or entirely, only 11 have 18 in part or entirely. There are 6 with 17, 3 with 15 and 3 with 14 as the AOC.

 

The age for voting in national elections is 18, which is also the age of majority.

 

In theory each state also gets to set its own drinking age, but any state with a drinking age of under 21 would risk losing federal highway funds.

[methodwriter85]

I hope Zach will not be Brian too...so he won't be "put down"...that was one of the regrets I have Brian went to the dark side

If anything, Zach will wind up like Billy, but a Billy that got a chance to grow up and maybe become a better guy. He doesn't come off sociopathic, just a user.

 

As for John, he's 12. (13 if we had gone with the original birthdate I picked out for him.) I really don't expect a 12-year old kid in 8th grade to know about the right way to treat someone in a relationship.

 

And with a face as adorable as this, how long could you possibly stay mad at the guy?

 

 

 

I mean, the greenish blue eyes alone...if they went all puppy-dog on me like that, I'd be gone...

Edited March 27, 2011 by methodwriter85

[rjo]

I was more upset with Gathan and Will and maybe the thought of John sexually active at 12. As for Stef and Gathan, Stef has always come across as a healer, a peacemaker, as he has said a lover not fighter. Maybe Brad also got upset because the one person he has always secretly wanted is Stef. Gathan needed to be healed and only Stef could do that.

 

I also really like Will. It is so good to see him as his own person. 14 yo kid telling off the cops. A 14 yo who believes that his word is his bond. Will - power. I love that line. A 14 yo who has gone through some sadness ( Drew) but still is willing to try again. It is so easy to just say that relationship was just kid stuff. Now it will be interesting to see what happens with John. I am hoping they can be friends and maybe more. Sometimes things do work out against all odds. Stef and JP together after 30 years. Brad and Robbie together since 17 almost 20 years. Matt and Wade. None of these couples are perfect but still good role models. I think Will is one of those people who can take the good things from all these relationships but will do it his own way. That is what makes him a interesting good character, someone we want to follow his progress.Good Luck Will. I[m betting on you.

Edited March 27, 2011 by rjo

[Daisy139]

Hmm, I have a very hard time wrapping my mind around the idea that a 6th grader might not realize that what he did requires an apology. I guess what makes things a bit complicated is that (if I read things right) Will and John weren't actually in a relationship (or were they?), but they still gave each other that promise. Everyone, even a first grader, knows if you break a promise (at least by the time you get caught in the act breaking it), an apology is due big time. Maybe everyone is just very different at this age...I don't know. But if I were Will I wait for a huge apology and if I ever got it I would at best allow John to become my friend again. Maybe things would be different once we grow up some more, but I'd be hurt beyond belief.

 

I mean he can't think that yeah he gave that promise to Will about giving him his cherry and getting his in return and oh well, tough luck, someone else got there first, so what, I can still have Will's, and why would he care anyway? I really can't see him think along those lines. Well, I guess we will see what happens soon!

 

Relationships are complicated things and I guess where I would see a 6th graders having some more to learn is how to deal with an issue like this. When somebody breaks a promise of this magnitude, do you forgive them, how do you get yourself to forgive them, under what circumstances should you forgive them, etc. I was surprised to see Will forgive John that early... I had a feeling it was coming (which is incredibly mature for his age), now that it's coming so soon I'm wondering if it's the naivite that comes with being a teenager (and sticks with some adults for an unhealthily long time....cough). I still guess he and John will make up and Will is going to forgive him and all, but that's really really mature for a kid his age. Anyway, I'm really curious about how things go on with those two and how they deal with what happened.

[methodwriter85]

I like the contrast- Brad was immature for his age when he was a teenager(and let's face it, a 37-year old), while Will is incredibly mature for a 13-year old. It'll be interesting following a guy who doesn't fly off the handle at everything as opposed to Brad.

 

And not to nitpick, but John's in 8th grade, not 6th. (Remembers when I was in 10th grade and someone thought I was in 8th, and how much that bothered me.)

 

The Gen 4 dynamic is really shaping up to be completely different from the Be Rad dynamic, which I'm happy about. Although Zach is dangerously close to acting like Billy, no one else really comes off the same way.

[Westie]

Ok, so commonly we have a number of abbreviations for Mark's stories, that we all sometimes use....

 

Chronicles of an academic predator = CAP

 

A Summer Love = ASL

 

Man in Motion = MiM

 

So, is it fear of Sharon that Mark has not yet abbreviated this story to PMS

 

 

 

 

 

[Daisy139]

Well, I'd be careful expecting Sharon to direct her anger at Mark...after all, Westie, you were the one that pointed the acronym out to us

 

John Hobart is in 8th grade? I didn't realize that.... I was 10/11 in 5th grade, 11/12 in 6th grade so I assume he was a 6th grader, sorry.... hmm I'm confused now. What age do you guys start school here?

[sat8997]

Why does everyone always think I'm mean? Hello? Hello? Is this thing on?

 

I will have you know I am nothing but sweetness and light (most of the time). Mark knows I adore him (most of the time). I also have never ever yelled at him (most of the time).

 

<snaugh>

 

*And when he sent me the first chapter, he took great pleasure in pointing out that cursed acronym.

 

 

[methodwriter85]

John's close to turning 13- he'll be thirteen on July 21st. Which makes it a little weird that Will seems to think they're not the same age, but whatever. In Will's mind he's clearly already fourteen.

 

To update people on ages and grades...

 

Darius is 18 and starting his freshmen year of college. Gathan will turn 18 on July 25th, and is starting his freshman year of college. Ella is turning seventeen on August 17th, and is entering 12th grade. Zach is 15, and in the 10th grade. JJ is 14, and in 9th grade. Marie is 14, and in 9th grade. Will is 13(turning fourteen in September), and in 9th grade. John is 12(turning 13 on July 21st) and in 8th grade. Courtney is four(turning 5 on September 4th), and getting ready to start kindergarten.

 

Ace is going to be a total mess when his little princess starts school. I can see it now.

[KYE]

John's close to turning 13- he'll be thirteen on July 21st. Which makes it a little weird that Will seems to think they're not the same age, but whatever. In Will's mind he's clearly already fourteen.

John is 12(turning 13 on July 21st) and in 8th grade. Courtney is four(turning 5 on September 4th), and getting ready to start kindergarten.

 

 

So John started the first grade at age 4? Age 12 subtract 8 (for 8th grade) = 4. Most kids start first grade at 6 or late age 5? I had just started puberty at age 12 and I was in the 6th grade. ( Gosh I'm surprised I can still remember that after all these years. )

Edited March 27, 2011 by KYE

[methodwriter85]

He'll be thirteen when he starts 8th grade. Let's work this backward. 1999-2000 was his 7th grade year, and he was 12. 1998-1999 was his 6th grade year, and he was 11. 1997-1998 to was his fifth grade year, and he was 10. 1996-1997 was his fourth grade year, and he was 9. 1995-1996 was his third grade year, and he was 8. 1994-1995 was his second grade year, and he was seven. 1993-1994 was his first grade year, and he was six. He started kindergarten for the 1992-1993 school year, and he was five.

 

It all works out to John being in the class of 2005, and graduating at seventeen. He's on the younger side for his grade because he was born in the summer. The same goes for Will, who graduates high school at seventeen. The California cut-off date for grades is December 2nd.

 

That means the class of 2004 is anyone born from December 3, 1985 to December 2nd, 1986. That encompasses JJ, Marie, and Will. The class of 2005 is anyone born from December 3, 1986 to December 2nd, 1987. That leaves John by himself in the class of '05.

Edited March 27, 2011 by methodwriter85

[PrivateTim]

He'll be thirteen when he starts 8th grade. Let's work this backward. 1999-2000 was his 7th grade year, and he was 12. 1998-1999 was his 6th grade year, and he was 11. 1997-1998 to was his fifth grade year, and he was 10. 1996-1997 was his fourth grade year, and he was 9. 1995-1996 was his third grade year, and he was 8. 1994-1995 was his second grade year, and he was seven. 1993-1994 was his first grade year, and he was six. He started kindergarten for the 1992-1993 school year, and he was five.

 

It all works out to John being in the class of 2005, and graduating at seventeen. He's on the younger side for his grade because he was born in the summer. The same goes for Will, who graduates high school at seventeen. The California cut-off date for grades is December 2nd.

 

That means the class of 2004 is anyone born from December 3, 1985 to December 2nd, 1986. That encompasses JJ, Marie, and Will. The class of 2005 is anyone born from December 3, 1986 to December 2nd, 1987. That leaves John by himself in the class of '05.

 

Ummm if he started Kindergarten at age 5 in 1992, he be turning 14 in 2001 and going into 9th grade and he'd be in the Class of '04

 

1992 5 K 1993 6 1st 1994 7 2nd 1995 8 3rd 1996 9 4th 1997 10 5th 1998 11 6th 1999 12 7th 2000 13 8th 2001 14 9th 2002 15 10th 2003 16 11th 2004 17 12th

[methodwriter85]

I'm not seeing where my error was, Tim. I said John would be 13 and in 8th grade for fall 2000. That would directly support John being 14 and in 9th grade for fall 2001.

[PrivateTim]

I'm not seeing where my error was, Tim. I said John would be 13 and in 8th grade for fall 2000. That would directly support John being 14 and in 9th grade for fall 2001.

 

I was thinking we were in 2001 already..... damn things are progressing slowly

[methodwriter85]

I was thinking we were in 2001 already..... damn things are progressing slowly

*Laughs hysterically* You think we're progressing slowly? How about me? I remember thinking we were getting to 9/11 after Mark got done with Bloodlines. But nooooo. He fit not just one, not just two, but THREE stories that took place in 1999. Now we've got two stories that are spanning 2000. I'm forced to repeat music because I've exhausted most of the music from about 1997 to 1999. If I have to use "1979" again I'll scream.

 

At this point the CAP characters have been aging at the almost the same rate we've been. The first year Mark was writing CAP, we saw the characters go from 1962 in CAP to 1998 in Bloodlines. Then Mark slowed the story way down. In real-time, we've gone from September 2009 to March 2011, a period of 18 months. In CAP time, we've gone from January 1998 to July 2000, a period of 2 years and 7 months. The CAP timeline is now progressing almost as slowly as real time.

 

One good thing about this is that Mark will likely get to the 9/11 story right around the late summer/early fall, hitting the 10-year anniversary. So that'll be cool. Still, if Mark doesn't skip over to 2003 after 9/11, I don't know what I'll do. :(

 

(Just kidding Mark. You know I love you. But it really would be nice to have full-year time jumps again.)

 

Oh, and Mark, Tim just brought up another slang word for you to incorporate into the story.

 

Dank- High quality weed, or someone or something that is incredibly cool.

 

I remember dank getting thrown around a little bit during the early '00s. It's defnitely a word I can see being in the vernacular of a Crampton/Schluter.

Edited March 28, 2011 by methodwriter85

[TheStoryReader]

Love the addition of Will's perspective. It will be great to see the CAP world from a younger perspective. Please Keep up the Great Work!

[B1ue]

I relocated a comment from a different thread to here, because it seems more appropriate.

 

Tim, Sharon, and myself, among others, have all expressed the opinion that JJ can be a bit much. Upon further reflection, I wonder if maybe this view is because JJ hasn't had a chance yet to be prissy in a way that advances the narrator's goals. Up until now, the little diva routine has been something Brad, Will, and Gathan have had to deal with and overcome, not something they've been glad to have in their corner. Consider the difference between how he's been and, say, Stef.

 

I'm sure a time and a place will come that JJ will get to throw the mother of all hissy fits, and that moment will cause the narrotor of the moment to proudly say, "That's my brother/cousin/son." I'd guess it'll be when Will starts coming out at school, and some dim bulb tries to ostracize him and JJ. Will might try to play it cool, and rise above it all, but I don't really think cool is a term that can apply to this JJ, right?

 

Or, alternatively, JJ might find out about the crap Zach has been talking about his little brother. Zach might be bigger, but I'm betting JJ fights dirtier.

[methodwriter85]

That'd be a great scenario, but from what I understand about Malibu High, Will coming out of the closet is going to be pretty much a non-event. It would have been at my high school, too. You didn't get anything dramatic like what Brad got when he came out at Gunn High School in 1980. Will might get ignored, but for the most part no one is going to care.

 

That's why Mark created Zach, to have the guy who has a hard time coming out because of his internal homophobia, ala Andy in Cross-Currents.

[B1ue]

Okay, no. There's a difference between "non-event" and "not being persecuted." I can buy the latter, but not the former. I'm not saying that he'll be ostrasized or beaten up, but someone is going to object. Think of the crowds Will hangs out with, and not all of them from his own school/neighborhood. If he also becomes a competitive level surfer and water polo player, he's going to interact with people all over Southern California, some of whom are going to want to score man points by putting the spoiled-rich fag in his place.

 

Besides, he's a masculine acting guy, who while apparently can't keep his eyes to himself doesn't strongly scream "gay" like, sad to say, JJ does. Just that amount of mental disconnect is going to perturb some of his friends. They may be condemned by their social peers for having an attitude, but some may not care.

 

California is only liberal in parts. We're the state that voted down gay marriage twice.

[centexhairysub]

I just love this forum....

 

I agree that Will coming out will not be a major issue like it was for Brad in " Be Rad " but I agree that there will be incidents especially when he has to interact with those outside his social group and friends. How much of an issue may well depend on Will himself, his maturity and confidence will go a long way in keeping some of it at bay.

 

I still want Will and John to work it out, at least in part... I am sorry, the thought of Brad's son and Jack's son having sex is just so freaking hot... We haven't really heard from John yet, so everyone complaining that he hasn't apologized need to wait and see, maybe he tried and Will didn't let him... I just think that at that age everything is such a big deal and figuring out how to deal with something like this would take more than a minute; John wasn't gonna pull out of Zach and go running after Will to apologize. John is clearly in the wrong but Will has to be willing to give him a chance to say he is sorry as well.

 

I know that someone earlier said that the deal with Gathan and Stef didn't bother them because the age wasn't a big deal, they were European, bullshit... I don't care if you are European, Asian, African, or American; a 40 plus age difference is going to be a big deal. The fact they had unprotected sex is also an issue, or it should be. I realize that Gathan needed to understand he wasn't a horrible lover but I am not sure that was Stef's job to teach. The fact remains that Gathan " Raped " at least one person and really two, Stef just seems to dismiss that as well, it was there fault for not being better lover's and accomodating him. Once again, BULLSHIT!!!! I am not saying Gathan is a bad person, he seemed to understand what he did was wrong and I know that Brad is going to get him to a therapist but Stef's attitude on this was way off base. If I remember correctly, one of Stef's early tricks was a man that basically raped him, and it took him a while to get over it; I just have a problem with the idea that Gathan could tell Stef that he hurt others and Stef seems to say it was there fault. Now, having said that, Stef has always been one of my favorite people in this story; although when he first showed up in Claremont, he could be as much of a Diva as JJ seems to be now... I just think the last few chapters have shown Stef in a way that is really out of bounds for how I would expect him to be.

 

There was also a comment earlier about the age of consent and who would tell about Stef and Gathan, hmmm let me see... a maid that saw something, a busines rival that is having Stef followed or bugged, or even the therapist; the therapist would be bound under California state law to report it, under certain situations... It wouldn't have to be Gathan going to the police, anyone could make the accusation, which could lead to an investigation...

[methodwriter85]

Okay, no. There's a difference between "non-event" and "not being persecuted." I can buy the latter, but not the former. I'm not saying that he'll be ostrasized or beaten up, but someone is going to object. Think of the crowds Will hangs out with, and not all of them from his own school/neighborhood. If he also becomes a competitive level surfer and water polo player, he's going to interact with people all over Southern California, some of whom are going to want to score man points by putting the spoiled-rich fag in his place. Besides, he's a masculine acting guy, who while apparently can't keep his eyes to himself doesn't strongly scream "gay" like, sad to say, JJ does. Just that amount of mental disconnect is going to perturb some of his friends. They may be condemned by their social peers for having an attitude, but some may not care.

 

Alright. Maybe there'll be some incidents, but for the most part, I think Will's going to get shoulder shrugs and people saying, "You're gay? It's whatever." Those who object will likely just ignore him. From what I understand, he'll get most of the shit from OC people, which is apparently a very homophobic area. It's not surprising that Drew's parents kicked him out, from what I've heard about it.

 

But for the most part Will's not having a dramatic coming-out process, which is why I think Mark created Zach. Zach's coming-out(if indeed it ever actually happens) is going to be extremely tough if not possible, since Zach seems headed to pro football.

 

The other thing I thought about is that besides it being 1980, Brad's coming out process was dramatic because Brad couldn't handle not being at the top of the social heap in school. He needed that power, and couldn't deal with not having it. I don't see Will as being that interested in being Mr. Popular or doing what needs to be done to maintain it. Will's probably going to be well-liked, but not the social king at school. He'll have his friends but I doubt he's throwing the big ragers that everyone in the school goes to. Since he doesn't care that much about what people think about him. Will's coming-out process is made easier because he doesn't need everyone's approval.

 

As for Stefan, I've accepted that it's a given that Stefan is going to have sex with barely-legal teenagers. I just skim over that stuff.

Edited March 29, 2011 by methodwriter85

[Mark Arbour]

I just love this forum....

 

Me too!

 

I know that someone earlier said that the deal with Gathan and Stef didn't bother them because the age wasn't a big deal, they were European, bullshit... I don't care if you are European, Asian, African, or American; a 40 plus age difference is going to be a big deal. The fact they had unprotected sex is also an issue, or it should be. I realize that Gathan needed to understand he wasn't a horrible lover but I am not sure that was Stef's job to teach. The fact remains that Gathan " Raped " at least one person and really two, Stef just seems to dismiss that as well, it was there fault for not being better lover's and accomodating him. Once again, BULLSHIT!!!! I am not saying Gathan is a bad person, he seemed to understand what he did was wrong and I know that Brad is going to get him to a therapist but Stef's attitude on this was way off base. If I remember correctly, one of Stef's early tricks was a man that basically raped him, and it took him a while to get over it; I just have a problem with the idea that Gathan could tell Stef that he hurt others and Stef seems to say it was there fault. Now, having said that, Stef has always been one of my favorite people in this story; although when he first showed up in Claremont, he could be as much of a Diva as JJ seems to be now... I just think the last few chapters have shown Stef in a way that is really out of bounds for how I would expect him to be.

 

 

I guess Stef could have said "Oh my God, you raped two people! That's horrible! You suck!" Stef would know that if you do that to an 18 year old guy, you'll send him spiraling into a self-esteem free-fall. If you think about the psychology, that's a really good way to set up a serial rapist, a guy who can't have real sex, only forced sex. In any event, I think Stef did the right thing by trying to help the guy he had in front of him (Gathan).

If you think about it, Stef has never been about judgment. He's doing that here, accepting that what happened, happened, and doing what he can to repair the damage. I'm not saying he handled things perfectly, but I think he did pretty well under the circumstances.

I got some crap about the unprotected sex from my beta team, and I can see that would be out of character, especially for a guy like Stef who lost so many friends to AIDS. I think the only real justification is that he was probably focused on the moment, on helping this f**ked up guy, and just didn't insist. In his mind, he was probably calculating the chances of infection with a guy who had two unprotected incidents. The riskiest, f**king the guy, wasn't all that risky since the guy he f**ked was a virgin as well (one would assume).

The other thing to ponder is that these guys aren't perfect, and they do f**k up. Do all guys have protected sex? Do all gay men adhere to strict age guidelines, as in "I won't sleep with anyone more than 10 years younger than me?" I'm wondering how many 55 year old guys out there would turn down a smokin' hot 18 year old that threw himself at them? Just asking.

[centexhairysub]

I guess Stef could have said "Oh my God, you raped two people! That's horrible! You suck!" Stef would know that if you do that to an 18 year old guy, you'll send him spiraling into a self-esteem free-fall. If you think about the psychology, that's a really good way to set up a serial rapist, a guy who can't have real sex, only forced sex. In any event, I think Stef did the right thing by trying to help the guy he had in front of him (Gathan).

If you think about it, Stef has never been about judgment. He's doing that here, accepting that what happened, happened, and doing what he can to repair the damage. I'm not saying he handled things perfectly, but I think he did pretty well under the circumstances.

I got some crap about the unprotected sex from my beta team, and I can see that would be out of character, especially for a guy like Stef who lost so many friends to AIDS. I think the only real justification is that he was probably focused on the moment, on helping this f**ked up guy, and just didn't insist. In his mind, he was probably calculating the chances of infection with a guy who had two unprotected incidents. The riskiest, f**king the guy, wasn't all that risky since the guy he f**ked was a virgin as well (one would assume).

The other thing to ponder is that these guys aren't perfect, and they do f**k up. Do all guys have protected sex? Do all gay men adhere to strict age guidelines, as in "I won't sleep with anyone more than 10 years younger than me?" I'm wondering how many 55 year old guys out there would turn down a smokin' hot 18 year old that threw himself at them? Just asking.

 

:ph34r: :ph34r:

 

I am not saying Stef should have rejected Gathan or even turned his back on him, but Stef did nothing that gave the impression it wasn't okay to force someone to have sex. Maybe I am overly sensetive to this, I was sexually attacked a long time ago, and got therapy to deal with it, but it just seems that Stef is glossing over Gathan's confession a little to much. I didn't really expect Will to have a ready answer or even know for sure what to do, but Stef should be acting diffrent to me... I am not going to make any more comments on this, I think I am getting hung up on this and it is making it harder to get into the rest of the story.

 

p.s. I don't know why I can't get the reply system to work so the emoticons are seperating Mark A's comments from my reply...

Edited March 29, 2011 by centexhairysub

[methodwriter85]

Ummm if he started Kindergarten at age 5 in 1992, he be turning 14 in 2001 and going into 9th grade and he'd be in the Class of '04

1992 5 K 1993 6 1st 1994 7 2nd 1995 8 3rd 1996 9 4th 1997 10 5th 1998 11 6th 1999 12 7th 2000 13 8th 2001 14 9th 2002 15 10th 2003 16 11th 2004 17 12th

 

Didn't catch this one before, but John would still be the class of 2005. He'd start 12th grade in fall '04 but graduate by spring '05.

 

Dude, I'm in the class of '05. I know early/mid-00's high school. And I did my research.

 

I started kindgergarten in 1991, which landed me in the class of 2004. But then I had to repeat the first grade because my reading levels were behind(I think it might have just been ADD), and that landed me with the class of '05.

 

And therein debates the great grade debate.