Man takes his own life

[W_L]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/06/07/sissy.boy.experiment/index.html?iref=obnetwork

 

I felt sick to my stomach after reading this story. I knew from background research these pseudo-psychologist existed when I began writing Exodus with strong emphasis on how far these guys could go, doing this stuff on kids should have been classified as what truly is, Child abuse. You're taking a helpless 5 year old boy and torturing him in order to "nip the bud" of homosexuality.

 

(I know this could become heated, but I think this is a general topic that all of us should chime in on, irrespective of political views, because there is something universal in this issue, if Graeme or any other mod thinks this gets deteriorated to political points, then it should be moved to Soapbox)

 

Also as a food for thought:

 

When trying to isolate, examine, and exterminate a certain group of people based on noticeable characteristics, these people are no longer trying to be doctors in curing a disease as the "cleansing" of society is what their ultimate goals are. They are more akin to Dr. Mengela and yet we allow them to do this under the umbrella of parental rights.

 

The studies and research used by Reker's is still being used today, while the US has forbidden the old style of therapies, we now have much more privately owned places, basically "Conversion Camps", where parents can send their kids to without regards to their rights.

[Graeme]

A link with a more comprehensive story: http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/what-are-little-boys-made-of-main

[phana14]

Thank you to W L and Graeme,

 

Tragic reading from both of you.

 

Why is it that unless I missed it, nowhere in either article did I see/hear any remorse on the part of either parent for THEIR actions?

My own opinion is that THEY are just as (if not more) responsible for what happened than the jerk psycho. I wouldn't argue in their favor if some authority somewhere decided to bring charges against them for the BEATINGS that Kirk endured at the hands of his horribly misguided sire and dam.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if this is still practiced globally, today.

[Graeme]

Thank you to W L and Graeme,

 

Tragic reading from both of you.

 

Why is it that unless I missed it, nowhere in either article did I see/hear any remorse on the part of either parent for THEIR actions?

My own opinion is that THEY are just as (if not more) responsible for what happened than the jerk psycho. I wouldn't argue in their favor if some authority somewhere decided to bring charges against them for the BEATINGS that Kirk endured at the hands of his horribly misguided sire and dam.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if this is still practiced globally, today.

 

The link I gave definitely had the mother expressing regret. It came over quite clear to me. It's seven pages - maybe you only looked at the first page.

 

That article, written by someone from the GLBT community, went the extra mile to explain what happened in the context of the times. As a parent myself, I know how it is if you're concerned about your child, you will take action. You also tend to trust medical staff, especially after seeing them on the TV expressing concern (that TV show appearance is what appears to have been the trigger for her to take her son to see Dr. Green).

 

From what I read, the mother is already suffering from enough guilty. The author of the article didn't need to dump any more on her, and he didn't do so (which I think is the right thing to do, based on what's been written).

 

It's less clear about the father, since he left the family while Kirk was still a teenager. We don't really know if he felt remorse or not.

[Michael9344]

I think the family is more to blame than the 'expert'. They should have understood that taking a five year old child to see a psychologist because he had 'symptoms' of homosexuality was very wrong. This is the age that he's still learning and takes everything he's told as true. He must have lived his life hating himself for feeling 'different'. Although the cause of death is inconclusive, I'm sure that this therapy with Reker played a major role in it. It pains me that many parents are still Kirk's parents and still take the same path. Behavioural modification is a complex process that twists the mind.May Kirk Rest In Peace.

[Graeme]

I think the family is more to blame than the 'expert'. They should have understood that taking a five year old child to see a psychologist because he had 'symptoms' of homosexuality was very wrong. This is the age that he's still learning and takes everything he's told as true. He must have lived his life hating himself for feeling 'different'. Although the cause of death is inconclusive, I'm sure that this therapy with Reker played a major role in it. It pains me that many parents are still Kirk's parents and still take the same path. Behavioural modification is a complex process that twists the mind.May Kirk Rest In Peace.

 

With today's understanding of the issues, you're correct. However, given the understanding in the 70s, when homosexuality was still listed as a mental illness, and was illegal in most of the USA, it's not surprising that they took their child to a psychologist. After all, what parent would want their child to grow up to be a criminal and to suffer from a mental health condition when they could do something about it?

 

Please, please consider the events in their historical context. Yes, it was wrong. We all accept that. We all know that... NOW. I'm not excusing Dr. Green or Reker - though even there I'm assuming their research and treatment was approved by the university's ethics committee - but I can't find it in me to blame the parents for following the advice of the 'medical experts'.

 

And I do agree with you regarding any parents who are still doing the same today should be held responsible. But back then we didn't know what we know now and so I can't assign the parents more blame than the 'medical experts'.

 

EDIT TO ADD:

 

The author of the article I linked to says it better than I have:

 

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/what-are-little-boys-made-of7

 

And on the subject of remorse (from that page):

But today, Kaytee now says that taking Kirk to UCLA was the worst thing that she could have done. “You don’t have a manual on raising kids,” she said. “I have felt a lot of guilt.”

 

“It’s been years in the back of my mind,” she continued. “Rod was right. I probably shouldn’t have taken him, but I did. He just didn’t think it was a good idea. But I think he was in denial that there might be a problem with Kirk, you know? But the mother in me thought it was the right thing to do.”

Please read all of that first link I gave. It gives a comprehensive account of what happened, and places it all in context with the papers from Dr's Green and Reker.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Graeme

[Andrew Q Gordon]

I know this is probably a bit of a tangent to this, but most everything about how horrible this was to the little boy and the sad effect it had on him has been said. What struck me is this "Dr." Reker is like so many other despicable people who are willing to do whatever and say whatever to make a buck. Here he is a closet gay man, attacking gays and worse pointing the finger at little children scaring their parents into believing they are 'wrong' and he can 'fix' them. All the while using the money they get to lead a clandestine secret life.

 

It's sad that there is no way to weed out these people. Clearly he needs a shrink more than he needs to be one.

[W_L]

I know some one will invoke the Godwin, but I kind of got a few hours to think over the comparison to Dr. Mengela and complicity..

 

Graeme,in the US, we have a code of conduct for medical professionals that puts equal emphasis on patient knowledge for procedures as well as doctors engaging in procedure. For a parent to follow orders rather than asking deeper questions about procedures, it engages in complicit action by default. When many people in society accept such practices, is it not a form of repression by any other name?

 

Do parents, doctors, and religious leaders have this right over a child even if it is tacit complicity based on assumed facts?

 

Also, the techniques that were described comes from a very long line of anti-gay pseudo-psychology called "aversion therapy" or positive encouragement as the old euphemism is known. It is destructive on adults to attempt aversion therapy, let alone a child.

 

In the end, families have to ask themselves one very clear and simple question: How much do you want an ideal family at the cost of sanity?

[Tomas]

Snip...How much do you want an ideal family at the cost of sanity?

 

Except in fiction and fairytales, I don't believe that such exists and I doubt that an ideal family can really be achieved. Of course, it is a very subjective thing and what one would view as ideal another might view as dysfunctional.

 

As to the subject of this thread... I seriously doubt that this is an isolated case. If his siblings hadn't cared enough to take the time to try and find some reason for their brothers suicide, the story probably wouldn't have grown legs. I'm sure that there is plenty enough guilt to go around for all concerned, not that all concerned will admit to any quilt whatsoever. Feelings of guilt at this juncture are useless really.

 

But that is just my humble opinion. Take it as you will.

[Tipdin]

Yes, I saw this story on Anderson Cooper last night. Ridiculous. The poor man's parent's were SO misguided. I kept thinking about all the conflicting emotions his siblings and mom must have.

 

What a sad, needless loss.

[MarkSen]

Very sad. I'll try to spread the message around that these kinds of situations are just sad and should not happen to anyone, especially children. Children should never experience such traumatic things, ever. It's not fair.

[W_L]

Except in fiction and fairytales, I don't believe that such exists and I doubt that an ideal family can really be achieved. Of course, it is a very subjective thing and what one would view as ideal another might view as dysfunctional.

 

As to the subject of this thread... I seriously doubt that this is an isolated case. If his siblings hadn't cared enough to take the time to try and find some reason for their brothers suicide, the story probably wouldn't have grown legs. I'm sure that there is plenty enough guilt to go around for all concerned, not that all concerned will admit to any quilt whatsoever. Feelings of guilt at this juncture are useless really.

 

But that is just my humble opinion. Take it as you will.

 

I appreciate your humble opinion and the ideal family issue is kind of warped in human thought. One person's dream is another one's nightmare, children should not be made into an image of what people want or desire, if we go down that line of logic, mankind will be doomed to eventual self-destruction.

 

I want people to remember these issues; I want people to know that at this very moment, while we see so much progress in the world of gay rights, there remains a very scary under-current. The practices of "aversion therapy" are still booming, camp loads of kids are still being forced through this kind of "treatments", and there has been little that has been done about them other than small legal actions that have at this point achieved little or nothing. Even if marriage equality becomes legalized in all 50 states, GLBT rights and human rights in general cannot be sustained by my generation or the generations that follow us as long as our population is culled, caged, and exploited.

 

Even though I am a fierce conservative and understand the complexity of how this type of treatment can be maintained by deaf ear by people of influence, but if I were ever given the power, it would be my life's mission to see to the eradication of this practice.

[Former Member]

I found that upsetting and rather depressing to watch.

 

I've heard of similar - some even harsher - stories of how some boys and men were forced in to electric shock therapy

Everytime they saw a picture of an attractive guy, they would experience an electric shock.

All these so called therapies do though is supress their sexuality. Not change it. They won't start suddenly experiencing hetrosexual thoughts, they'll just suffer psychologically when they have same sex desires.

Another thing to consider is that not all effeminate boys turn out to be gay. A good friend of mine was - and still is - effeminate, but he's also straight. A large amount of young kids play with more feminine toys, and girls - more masculine toys, they usually change as they grow older.

I understand that 30 years ago times were different regarding affection and discipline on children, and on homosexuality in general. But I'm sure even for those times what they put that toddler through was considered extreme.

[Matthew k]

I am a cynic. I ask how and why is it being talked about now? The therapy happened in 1971. The final paper was published in 1974. The suicide was in 2003. The papers were not secret, they were published in leading journals of the day and they were fairly mainstream thoughts for the day. Rekers was not the sole author of the study, the highly respected Ole Lovaas was the co-author, but his name was never mentioned in the story. It wasn't at some crazy camp in the Utah wilds, it was UCLA and it was sponsored by the federal government.

 

If you read the paper and read all the references and look them up, you see this was as I said before, pretty mainstream stuff.

 

The family also skates in this report, they are made to look like victims. It is the parents who wanted it. They wanted the behavior modification and the mother was an active participant. The psychologists did their thing with the boy one day a week. The mother did the behavior modification every day and continued to do so even after the study had been concluded.

 

So who is bringing this up now and why? The cynic in me says it has a political motivation behind it and nothing more otherwise Lovaas, Baker, Green, Bentler, Zugar, and the other 26 psychologists that Rekers & Lovaas cited would have been mentioned and the whole field talked about, not one psychologist and one case.

[Former Member]

I am a cynic. I ask how and why is it being talked about now? The therapy happened in 1971. The final paper was published in 1974. The suicide was in 2003. The papers were not secret, they were published in leading journals of the day and they were fairly mainstream thoughts for the day. Rekers was not the sole author of the study, the highly respected Ole Lovaas was the co-author, but his name was never mentioned in the story. It wasn't at some crazy camp in the Utah wilds, it was UCLA and it was sponsored by the federal government.

 

If you read the paper and read all the references and look them up, you see this was as I said before, pretty mainstream stuff.

 

The family also skates in this report, they are made to look like victims. It is the parents who wanted it. They wanted the behavior modification and the mother was an active participant. The psychologists did their thing with the boy one day a week. The mother did the behavior modification every day and continued to do so even after the study had been concluded.

 

So who is bringing this up now and why? The cynic in me says it has a political motivation behind it and nothing more otherwise Lovaas, Baker, Green, Bentler, Zugar, and the other 26 psychologists that Rekers & Lovaas cited would have been mentioned and the whole field talked about, not one psychologist and one case.

 

You make a good point... Interesting question.

[Graeme]

Why now? Because the incident with Reker and the rent-boy is recent. Because the ex-gay movement is still active, and there are those that have never stopped trying to disprove the scientific basis for their 'treatments'.

 

If this article is true, it appears that the original papers that formed the basis of gender behaviour modification have been exaggerated. That's not an insignificant thing. As Matthew has pointed out, the papers were mainstream for the day, but if they weren't accurate then that's important - for science, if not for removing support for ex-gay 'therapies'.

 

The real question in my mind is why the family came forward now, but it's quite possible that it's because of the Reker incident that they've become aware of the queries about 'Kraig/Kyle'. Certainly, the timing is right (since it appears they contacted the journalist some time ago).

 

W_L, the code of conduct you mentioned is one that's evolved over time. Forty years ago, there was more 'faith' put in doctors than today, and they wouldn't have explained things to the same degree. As a simple example, I visited an oral surgeon today to organised the removal of my last two wisdom teeth. What I was told was very different and much more comprehensive that 28 years ago when I had my other two wisdom teeth taken out. The code of conduct has evolved.

[Daisy139]

When I was in elementary school, a lot of people where I grew up still thought being left-handed was some kind of choice that would lead to brain damage eventually. My parents and classroom teacher were so concerned they tried to force me to write with my right hand only (which gave me my first sense of "failure"), but after 2 weeks they realized it wasn't working and it was doing only harm, no good, and they stopped and told me I could go back to writing with my left if I wanted.

I feel really lucky that my parents went against the spirit of the time and had some kind of intuition about what's right. It's so scary to see what grandiose nonsense people would come up with and call it science.... poor Kirk

[Former Member]

When I was in elementary school, a lot of people where I grew up still thought being left-handed was some kind of choice that would lead to brain damage eventually. My parents and classroom teacher were so concerned they tried to force me to write with my right hand only (which gave me my first sense of "failure"), but after 2 weeks they realized it wasn't working and it was doing only harm, no good, and they stopped and told me I could go back to writing with my left if I wanted.

I feel really lucky that my parents went against the spirit of the time and had some kind of intuition about what's right. It's so scary to see what grandiose nonsense people would come up with and call it science.... poor Kirk

 

They really thought that it is a choice to be left handed? Never heard that before.

Some people do come to some strange conclusions. The fact is people have unique characteristics, which is great otherwise the world would be such a boring place.

[rustle]

When I was in elementary school, a lot of people where I grew up still thought being left-handed was some kind of choice that would lead to brain damage eventually. My parents and classroom teacher were so concerned they tried to force me to write with my right hand only (which gave me my first sense of "failure"), but after 2 weeks they realized it wasn't working and it was doing only harm, no good, and they stopped and told me I could go back to writing with my left if I wanted.

I feel really lucky that my parents went against the spirit of the time and had some kind of intuition about what's right. It's so scary to see what grandiose nonsense people would come up with and call it science.... poor Kirk

 

 

My brother was "trained" to write with his right hand by my parents. Lefthandedness was "other" and "weird." Society has become much more accepting of natural differences in my lifetime, but there are still some throwbacks. Still some passionate people believe homosexuality can be denied, beaten out of you, prayed out of you. I'd love to see that attitude die in my lifetime.

 

It's become apparent that some things are better accepted than interfered with. The question, "Should we?" may yet be replaced with "Must we?" I hope so.

[Daisy139]

Mr. Daisy still thinks homosexuality and lefthandedness are choices. I've tried all I could to convince him of the opposite, but somewhere he read some "research" that "proved" they were choices. And he's convinced if I chose to write with my right hand I could do it and I could be better off.

When I told him out of my 3 siblings 2 are lefthanded as well, and one of them, like me, is bi, he basically argued that that probably means my parents let us do just about anything we want (i.e. let us get away with any choice we make) and that's why we have such high occurrences in our family. I don't know how to talk reason into him anymore :wacko:

[Graeme]

We're moving a little off topic, but I suppose it relates to the prevailing thoughts back in the 70s/80s....

 

I remember back in the 70s my elder sister being encouraged to use her right hand, rather than her left. I don't think there was a intense effort to change her, but she was encouraged to change. Clearly, if my memories are correct, then at that time lefthandedness was considered something undesirable. Is it really that surprising that homosexuality was, too, and that parents would consult with medical specialists for an appropriate treatment?

[JamesSavik]

Why is this important?

 

Dr. George Reker's work was often cited as authoritative and Reker himself has served as an expert witness for anti-gay causes and organizations.

 

"Craig" was touted as a success story and validation of Reker's work.

 

Now we see that Reker is a sick-assed closet case who is so screwed up no one wants to look inside HIS head.

 

His work is GARBAGE as are the programs and therapies developed by the FRC and NARTH and other X-gay front organizations based on his work.

 

"Craig" as a suicide rather than a success story puts Reker's work in exactly the perspective it belongs: in the dust-bin of history.

[old bob]

It's a sad story... but James's comment resume everything.

 

The main point is : can american people do more to fight all these pseudo-therapies ?

I doubt it, as long as the religious sentiment is so widespread in some circles.

How many of such cases we dont know about ?

[skyler1]

You think this is bad. Just wait till parents can gene shop for their unborn children. "I want a blond haired, blue eyed nazi type and oh. NO GAY GENE!!! Can you add Uber Christian? NO? That's a learned characteristic? Well we can beat the god into them don't worry.":

 

Conversations like this are not that far in the future.