9.11

[centexhairysub]

Okay, after spending the day thinking about just about nothing but this chapter; I have come to the conclusion that the most important thing about it was the invocation of Tonto...  She fought for the high school in Claremont to be desegregated and worked her whole life to ensure that those without a voice were given one; she would be horrified by Marie's actions... 

 

I am going to give Isidore a pass becaue I believe that as Tim said, she probably wasn't really aware of the issues involved with who was or wasn't on the list.  I am not even sure that she would have been aware of the two fights that were referred to in enough detail to know the others involved.  We just don't see her enough to know what she knew or thought.  Plus, as I noted earlier, tradition is very big for her and to remove people that have been invited this party for generations would be a really big deal. 

 

I am going to give Claire a partial pass for now as well...  It is obvious that Marie lied to both her and Jack about apologizing to Will.  It is also obvious that she did not understand the reason that Marie was asking them to keep Noah off the list; and how petty and self serving it was to do so.  I am going to fault Claire at least to some extent about keeping the other boys on the list however.  It would have been easy to invite the parents but not the children, even if an explanation had to be given...  Once again, I am going to mention tradition.  Claire is very like both JP and Isidore and tradition is important to both of them.  She might not have wanted to rock the boat and strike families from the list when Will did not even press charges or even make that big of a deal about the fight itself.  Will was much more upset afterward about Marie's behaviour then Eric's.  Plus, I don't even remember the fight with Darius being discussed except among the younger generation, did Claire even know about it???  Marie surely did and once again, I am going to put her in the crosshairs. 

 

The main issue that I think is really at the core is Will's assertion that the family is snobbish or elitist...  I am not sure that is really a fair declaration to make.  The family is wealthy beyond the level that almost everyone they come in contact with is, plus their social and political connections correspond to that level of wealth; doesn't that automatically seperate them somewhat from everyone else?  We have seen indications that the family has worked over the years to keep each generation connected to reality in small ways but when you have access to enough money to fly to Rome, or have a fight with the family and hop on a private jet to Malibu to get away, or give your Mother's new girlfriend a $ 50,000 pick up; how reality based can your world be??? 

 

Now, I am not disagreeing with Will, I think the fact Noah was left off the list was inexcusable and arguably Eric being kept on the list was equally so but was elitism really at play or was it more adherence to tradition and a mother protecting her child from discomfort?  I have to wonder if Claire even asked why Marie wanted Noah kept from the party; I have a feeling that Claire is about to be questioning Marie on a lot more issues...

 

Several others have mentioned and I will second the lack of time Claire and Jack have spent in helping Claremont, even I mentioned it but what is her connection there?  Yes, she did spend some summers and holidays there when she was very young but she never lived there.  She was born in Chicago and then moved to Palo Alto when very young.  Tonto moved for all intense and purposes to Escorial when Claire was still fairly young as well.  Her only connection to Claremont was the occassional trip to see Marie Crampton, Mamman, who died when Claire was in her early 20's.  We never saw Claire really going back to Claremont much...  Brad has more of a connection because of Robbie and his family but Claire doesn't have that personal connection to the place.  Now, she of course owes JP enough loyalty that she should want to help, but what has happened behind the veil that we aren't aware of? 

 

I don't think that Tonto would have as much of an issue with Claire as with Marie.  Tonto, with one exception that I can think of for which she heartily aplogized, always supported family above all.  She took in her grandchildren and others when she was well past the age to do so because that was the right thing to do.  She even let go of them when that was the right thing to do.  I am not sure what the deal is with Marie, we really haven't seen enough of her to know; but Tonto would have done slapped some sense into her or sent her to a military school for her actions... 

 

Keep up the great work Mark, I need something to keep my blood flowing and the CAP and Bridgemont series both work wonders for that...

Edited May 8, 2013 by centexhairysub

[Gene Splicer PHD]

I like to think that Marie is as strong-willed as Will, and makes a good "family adversary". In my version of the CAP universe, she's been moving and shaking to establish herself as a queen bee at the school, and sees Will as a threat.

 

The fun part about it is that she's off-stage, maneuvering and plotting, and we won't know her moves until Will does.

 

i am probably totally wrong about this, of course.

[methodwriter85]

I like to think that Marie is as strong-willed as Will, and makes a good "family adversary". In my version of the CAP universe, she's been moving and shaking to establish herself as a queen bee at the school, and sees Will as a threat.

 

The fun part about it is that she's off-stage, maneuvering and plotting, and we won't know her moves until Will does.

 

i am probably totally wrong about this, of course.

 

I don't think that's quite true about Marie- Marie has been described as being an eclectic young woman who has an eclectic taste in friends. Marie doesn't strike me as someone who gives a shit about becoming Homecoming Queen of the school. Wasn't it kind of a sticking point between Ella and Marie that Marie didn't want anything to do with the uber-elite crowd at Menlo, and Marie didn't dress head-to-toe preppy? (At the time, that probably would have meant Abercrombie and Fitch and Tommy Hilfiger.) Then again, you can be a pretty bitchy queen bee of any social group. The high school social scene tends to be way more complicated than it is on t.v., where it's the quarterback/head cheerleader "ruling" over and torturing the poor nerdy types. More often than not, high school was made of little cliques where people did their own thing and didn't really bother much with people outside of their social group. The real bullying and terrorizing came within their own social groups, as seen in Mean Girls, and what we've seen in Marie's bitchy behavior towards Noah.

 

I do like that Mark's approaching high school this time around much more differently this time as opposed to Brad at Gunn or Matt at The University School...it's less a feeling of "needing" the social power that comes from being at the top of the heap. Brad and Matt both really liked and needed the power of being Mr. Popular, and Brad especially seemed to think of his "friends" as his personal chess pieces to move around. Brad and Matt would have likely befriended Carter as part of the idea of keeping your friends close and your enemies closer...Will flat out refuses to pretend to like people he can't stand.

Edited May 8, 2013 by methodwriter85

[mmike1969]

Or maybe Marie is just a total bitch.

No manner of breeding or upbringing can change that.

[Mark Arbour]

The is no trump card for Marie with Will and Tony's relationship (nor for Dana). You have to understand the mind of a prosecuting attorney to understand why no charges would ever be filed against Tony. Prosecutions are not about Truth, Justice and the American way, they are about winning and without a victim on the stand a DA would have no way to win this case, not even if Will and Tony doing it onstage were the halftime show of the Super Bowl. DAs hate to lose cases and look stupid and trying to make Will implicate Tony on the stand would make a DA look stupid.

 

 

Thanks.  It was good to have your perspective on this.  I was wondering how that worked.

 

The most interesting part of the whole chapter though was Will's observation about the Bastille Day guest list being weighted to the rich and powerful. I am not sure Will would actually be self aware enough to notice it since his 14 years have been in a cocoon of privilege, but he provides a good vehicle for Mark to show the movement of the Crampton & Schluter clans.

 

In smallish town mid-west America there were prominent families, but you regularly interacted across class lines with. The Crampton & Schluter clans went to public schools in Claremont which brought them into contact with people from all walks of life. In CA they live in elite conclaves.

 

You did a nice job of summarizing the differences (from my perspective) of being wealthy in a big town/little city vs. a big city/metro area. 

 

 

When JP moved to Escorial, Palo Alto was just a nice, upper middle class, intellectually elite conclave, but by 2001 you couldn't swing a dead cat over your head without hitting a multi-millionaire and even several billionaires because of the tech boom in Silicon Valley. Ditto for Malibu and especially The Colony.

 

 

 

I suspect that with the Dot collapse going on there are a lot fewer uber-wealthy people in Palo Alto.  Not that they're all paupers, but that took a pretty big hit.

[rjo]

Chapter 7 started a fight which has been hiding for some time. First you know I am in Will's corner. I defended him long ago when he was out of control, now he is right on. Will is still that person who believes in black and white no grey. JP talked about Will being like Tonto. Maybe now he wishes he hadn't. Tonto was a woman who was ready to take on the whole US government for sending the Japanese Americans to inturnment camps. Will pulled out the mirror and showed most of the family something they don't want to see. I think there is lots of guilt to go around. Isidore must have known about Eric. Will was attacked in her own home. How many of her grandchildren get attacked in her house? Guilty! Claire Must again know about Eric and maybe Carter too. She didn't press Marie for the apology to Will and why Marie didn't want Noah around. If you had a daughter woundn't you ask why she didn't want Noah around? Guilty!! Marie should be banded from the party, forced to work at the Mission all summer. Maybe she'd learn something. Real Guilty!!! JP is so into the form that he looses the message. I can only hope the invocation of Tonto will make him see right. Who have been the loyal members of this family and who have not? As JJ said Will was a dick and what he said was and needed to be said. Yes JP guilty too. I hope Stef decides to leave town too. Let the rotten members go to Ohio. Their punishment.

[mmike1969]

Of course, Erik and Carter's names are on the invite list. This list was created long before they attacked Will/Darius so I am guessing this was a simple oversight.

 

Now Noah's name disappearing from the invite list is something else.

[endlessfire]

I think the part most of you who want Will to 'get what's coming to him' fail to realize is that most 14 year olds in his situations would be in a pysch ward by this point. You want Will to either be a child or insanely mature at all times. Let's review his life a little

1. the older brother that he adore's grows up and doesn't have time for him

2. his mother turns batshit crazy, hates him and makes his life a living hell

3. both of his fathers have all but abandoned him for their jobs

4. he's raped on vacation

5. his younger brother turns into a bitch (with good reason that he only found out later)

6. one of his fathers then turns on him

7. he had to fight like hell to win his independence because his mother was making his life hell and no one would help him

8. now his cousin is turning against him

9. his grandmother and aunt are all but telling him he doesn't really matter to the family as long as the only female grandchild (excluding the baby) gets her way

Most adults wouldn't be able to handle all of that, and to expect a teenager to do it is crazy. 

In regards to his thinking that it's not his job to make someone else be faithful, you have to remember Will has learned, through all of the above mention events, that each person is responsible for themselves. His actions had consequences and he was made to deal with them, to me, in his mind Kyle had to deal with his own consequences and it wasn't Will's place to make him act right.

[methodwriter85]

5. his younger brother turns into a bitch (with good reason that he only found out later)

 

JJ isn't actually younger than Will. He's actually 9 months older than Will. JJ's just a late bloomer so he seems younger.

 

Other than that, good points. You gotta love the life of a soap opera teenager.

[Mark Arbour]

I think the part most of you who want Will to 'get what's coming to him' fail to realize is that most 14 year olds in his situations would be in a pysch ward by this point. You want Will to either be a child or insanely mature at all times. Let's review his life a little

1. the older brother that he adore's grows up and doesn't have time for him

2. his mother turns batshit crazy, hates him and makes his life a living hell

3. both of his fathers have all but abandoned him for their jobs

4. he's raped on vacation

5. his younger brother turns into a bitch (with good reason that he only found out later)

6. one of his fathers then turns on him

7. he had to fight like hell to win his independence because his mother was making his life hell and no one would help him

8. now his cousin is turning against him

9. his grandmother and aunt are all but telling him he doesn't really matter to the family as long as the only female grandchild (excluding the baby) gets her way

Most adults wouldn't be able to handle all of that, and to expect a teenager to do it is crazy. 

In regards to his thinking that it's not his job to make someone else be faithful, you have to remember Will has learned, through all of the above mention events, that each person is responsible for themselves. His actions had consequences and he was made to deal with them, to me, in his mind Kyle had to deal with his own consequences and it wasn't Will's place to make him act right.

 

What a wonderful summary.  That does help to explain why some of the characters I've created turn out so warped.  Maybe you can do the same thing for Tony for PrivateTim's benefit.

 

There is one other thing to consider, and one which will ultimately come up when Nana chimes in down the road.  Will told Nana that if it weren't for Claire and Isidore, he wouldn't really have women in his life who loved him (in Paternity, when they were riding horses).  That may explain even more his volatile reaction.

[Pete Bruno]

"9. his grandmother and aunt are all but telling him he doesn't really matter to the family as long as the only female grandchild (excluding the baby) gets her way"

 

In one of my first reviews I blasted Will, and now I am becoming one of staunchest defenders.  The above quote is brilliant, and describes my feelings perfectly.

 

 

Claire and Isidore’s actions in this chapter have totally shocked me.  If not for their responses at the dinner one could argue that they had no knowledge of the changes to the guest list.  But I can only conclude that the inclusion of two young men that have physically assaulted members of their family shows they are more concerned with social standing than the feelings or safety of family members. 

 

And as for Will and JJ talking off their rings, I say Bravo!  If J.P. was so interested in doing what was right he would have demanded the two offending boys be disinvited immediately.  By not doing so it sent a signal to Will that he was not important enough to countermand Claire and Isidore. 

 

It also appears that someone is lying to Steph and J.P. about Marie apologizing, that is why Steph questioned Will about receiving an apology.  For me, the reactions of both Claire and Isidore at the dinner make me think they don't feel it necessary for her to apologize. 

 

Can't wait to read the next chapter.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Pete Bruno

[centexhairysub]

9. his grandmother and aunt are all but telling him he doesn't really matter to the family as long as the only female grandchild (excluding the baby) gets her way

 

Okay, I have been a big backer of Will for sometime but I can't disagree more with this...  Claire has been the one adult that has consistently been there for him no matter what; as much or even more than Stef...  She stood my him after his rampage in Malibu, the situation in Oslo, and everything else.  You don't ever really see Isidore, hint hint Mark, so you don't know how close she is or isn't to him.  I grew up in a family at least similar to this and I can tell you that the party list is basically set year after year.  There maybe a few people added or removed because of marriages, divorces, deaths, etc. but the list really doesn't change much from year to year.  I doubt very seriously that Isidore ever knew about the fight that Darius had with the one guy, it wasn't really ever discussed except among the younger generations; and we don't know what she knew or didn't know about the issue with Eric and Will.  Plus, Will did not want the police involved and took no steps to involve either his family or Eric's in the aftermath.  Why would Isidore or even Claire know that he gave a damn if Eric came or didn't come.  If Will didn't make a big deal about the fight, then why should anybody else??? 

 

Now, after saying all of that; I think the families should have been invited with a call from either Isidore or Claire depending who was closer to the family saying that because of recent issues, maybe the son's should not be at the party this year...

 

I have much more of an issue with Noah being removed from the list that Will submitted, escpecially since there was only two people; but I lay the blame for that primarily at the feet of Marie.  I do agree that Claire should have asked a few more questions such as why Noah made Marie so uncomfortable but with 700 plus guest and a party that takes months to plan; how much discussion is given to each guest???

 

In one of my first reviews I blasted Will, and now I am becoming one of staunchest defenders.  The above quote is brilliant, and describes my feelings perfectly.

 

 

Claire and Isidore’s actions in this chapter have totally shocked me.  If not for their responses at the dinner one could argue that they had no knowledge of the changes to the guest list.  But I can only conclude that the inclusion of two young men that have physically assaulted members of their family shows they are more concerned with social standing than the feelings or safety of family members. 

 

And as for Will and JJ talking off their rings, I say Bravo!  If J.P. was so interested in doing what was right he would have demanded the two offending boys be disinvited immediately.  By not doing so it sent a signal to Will that he was not important enough to countermand Claire and Isidore. 

 

It also appears that someone is lying to Steph and J.P. about Marie apologizing, that is why Steph questioned Will about receiving an apology.  For me, the reactions of both Claire and Isidore at the dinner make me think they don't feel it necessary for her to apologize. 

 

Can't wait to read the next chapter.

 

As someone that has read the series from the beginning; I don't believe that Claire has ever done anything to show that she gives a damn about anyone else's social standing or how much money they have or don't have.  I think Claire's reaction at the dinner showed that Marie had probably lied to her and told her that she had apologized to Will and I think it was clear that she had told JP and Stef that Marie had done so.  I think this is one of the reasons that Claire was so upset, not at Will but at Marie... 

 

Now, I do find it hard to believe that Claire would not have questioned Marie on why Will would invite someone that Marie was uncomfortable being around, this didn't ring true to me but I don't find it unusual that if your daughter/granddaughter came to you and asked someone be excluded from a party because they made them uncomfortable that they would be removed from the invitation list.  If you don't understand that then you don't have or care for a child.  Your first reaction is always going to be to protect the child.  What I find unusual here is that Claire didn't delve more into the issue with Marie or talk to Will about it.  Claire and Will have developed a very close relationship over the years and I find it strange that there would not have been more questions about this from Claire's side.   

 

As I stated earlier, it isn't like the two guys that got into a fight with Darius and Will were suddently added to the list; they and their families have been coming for decades.  You don't disinvite a family that has been friends or more for decades because of a fight between the kids, even if it turned physical.  You might ask that the young men involved not come this year til hard feelings fade but you don't just dump the families over a kid's fight...  Will recovered emotionally and mentally from the fight fairly quickly and even seemed to understand that Eric had a point even if he should have punched his boyfriend not Will.  Will was much more upset afterward at Marie for letting Eric know than he ever seemed to be at Eric. 

 

The issue here is much more Marie lying to Claire and probably Isidore and her behaviour with Will than either Claire's or Isidore's behaviour.  While I agree that Will is much more in the right here than anyone else, his refusal to see the shades of grey involved show that while his maturity level has soared, he can still be a child in so many ways....

Edited May 9, 2013 by centexhairysub

[rjo]

I normally agree with David and do with most of what he said, but Noah should not have been removed without talking to Will first. Period. If he had added lots of people but he only added two. TWO. I think that shows how important they were to him. This is not Will's party, but it is not Isidore or Claire's party. It is a family party. Back to Carter and Eric. I assume that attacks like what happened to Darius and Will don't happen all the time. The one with Eric happened only feet away from the room they were eating. First if my son had attacked my hosts grandson, he would not be at the party and I might not attained either. What bugs me is the double stand Marie is not comfortable with Noah so he can't come but Will and Darius's attackers can. What is wrong with that picture? Will in 14 going on 30, but at least he knows what is right and wrong, like his great grandmother.

[Pete Bruno]

"As someone that has read the series from the beginning; I don't believe that Claire has ever done anything to show that she gives a damn about anyone else's social standing or how much money they have or don't have."

 

Well I have read every word of the series as well; as a matter of fact I just discovered it about two months ago and read every word in about two weeks.  Sometimes I would forget to eat because I was so involved in the story (thanks Mark, I lost 10lbs!) and so the story is very fresh in my mind.  It is the same with Claire as with Isidore.  We really only see very small snippets of Claire, usually when someone needs to go shopping for clothes.  And while my family was nowhere near as wealthy as this group, it was a large wealthy Italian family that hosted the towns biggest 4th of July party,  complete with professional fireworks.  The guest list always topped 300 (a lot of family) but you can be damned sure my grandmother, mother and aunts knew everyone on the list and would not hesitate to remove someone regardless of how long they had been attending, even family members.  Maybe that's just an Italian thing!

 

Steph already knows that Marie has lied.  J.P. had already said the two offending boys are not welcome, and yet Isidore and Claire continue to argue for them to be included.  And what to make of the fact that Will adds just two people and one is removed?   

 

"I doubt very seriously that Isidore ever knew about the fight that Darius had with the one guy, it wasn't really ever discussed except among the younger generations; and we don't know what she knew or didn't know about the issue with Eric and Will."

 

Really?  It happened in the great hall.

 

"The pain seared through my face, even as I stumbled backward.  I collided with one of the medieval suits of armor that adorned the room and ended up crashing to the floor with it."

 

Maybe Isidore took an extra sleeping pill that night. 

 

In the end, all we can do is wait for the next chapter.  I'm confident that Mark will have a surprise or two for us, he hasn't disappointed me yet!

Edited May 10, 2013 by Pete Bruno

[MJ85]

I said it earlier, I'll say it again: Claire has to be decidedly less than thrilled with Will making a habit of calling Marie out at dinner. This is the second time in just two weeks that he has, and accusing Claire of snobbery at the same time certainly didn't help either.

 

Frankly, I wonder when Marie will decide to stand up and fire back at Will, however wrong she may be. Point being: It's highly doubtful that she's just going to go on being his proverbial punching bag.

[methodwriter85]

Frankly, I wonder when Marie will decide to stand up and fire back at Will, however wrong she may be. Point being: It's highly doubtful that she's just going to go on being his proverbial punching bag.

 

     If there's one thing I've learned in life, no matter how stong the arguments of the Alpha male are, he will always lose in a fight with an Alpha female.

Edited May 10, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Westie]

I actually think that some of you are making entirely too big a deal about removing Noah from the list.  If your daughter came to you and said "This guy really creeps me out, and I'd really rather he not be there", you are going to listen.  If your daughter then clams up and wont tell you more, you might make a mental note to watch out for it in future, or maybe talk to the guys parents.  What you might NOT do, is talk to the boy's best friend about it (who happens to be your nephew).

 

I think it's got blown out of proportion.

 

However, after hearing the REAL reasons, maybe Claire should have had the decency to agree that he should be reinstated.  Maybe both Claire and her mother were just a little too defensive of the guys who assaulted Will and Darius (- by the way, I think Will should press charges now to teach these guys what SERIOUS embarrassment is like).

 

I don't think Claire is a bad person.  She seems a little shallow, but where it counts she comes down on the right side (remember her appearance in Clairmont to help Gathen's sister - whose name escapes me?).  I certainly don't think Isadore a bad grandmother.  I think she probably finds it more effective to leave heavy involvement to JP.  It also must be said that we have been told time and again that her suite of rooms is tucked well out of the way, so that she isn't disturbed by night-time antics of her over-sexed household.

 

Guys - there is certainly a lot to whine and complain about here.  But let's be reasonable and not jump off at the deep end huh?  Most of you are painting at least someone as the devil incarnate, and it's quite frankly more over-the-top than the ceremonial removing of signet rings by Will and JJ.

[Pete Bruno]

     If there's one thing I've learned in life, no matter how stong the arguments of the Alpha male are, he will always lose in a fight with an Alpha female.

Ain't it the truth!  I think it there is a cave somewhere that says the same thing in cave painting.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Pete Bruno

[mmike1969]

Oversexed household? Well we are talking about a Married woman who is having sex with the father of her oldest son's husband and who also slept with the help in the past.

 

So no bitching from her please.

 

[methodwriter85]

Oversexed household? Well we are talking about a Married woman who is having sex with the father of her oldest son's husband and who also slept with the help in the past.

 

So no bitching from her please.

 

 

    Ace is technically the oldest son. Ace was born in March 1962, Brad was born in October 1962. I'm kinda curious actually if Ace was held back a year, because Ace should have graduated from high school in 1980 instead of '81 like Brad and Robbie. Brad started kindergarten in Ohio, so that date is right, and Robbie was born in March 1963, so that's right. The birth order for Isidore and JP's kids are Ace (March 1962), Brad (October 1962), Claire and Billy (October 1964). (Billy died October 1980.) The birth order for Brad, Robbie, and Jeanine's kids are Darius (January 1982), JJ (December 1985), and Will (September 1986.) The birth order for Claire and Jack's kids are Marie (April 1986) and John (July 1987.) Ace's only child, Courtney, was born in September 1995. I would imagine that as bad as Marie's Princess Complex is, Courtney's will be much, much worse because she's an only child. Only children can be precocious little monsters.

 

     Although Westie does have a good point.We've never seen CAP through the eyes of a female. As someone who went to a high school that was over 2/3's female, I noticed that girls will often have to deal with nice guys who keep hitting on them but just refuse to get the hint. I can see the point of view with Marie, where Noah was making her feel uncomfortable and guilty because he liked her and she felt like a bitch for saying no because a nice girl doesn't say no to a nice guy who likes her. Will only joined up with Menlo by January and we didn't see any of the school year at Menlo...we don't know how Noah interacted with Marie or whether or not he tried to "shame" her into dating him. It's actually something that's been discussed in feminist circles...

 

     "Nice Guy Syndrome" is the idea of men who become fixated on being "nice" towards a pretty girl, and begins to develop feelings for her. Because he's nice to her, it starts to become this expectation that she'll reciprocate his feelings. Women are trained to be culturally gentle when trying to let down a guy, and maybe Noah just didn't get the hint so she finally went the bitch route.

Edited May 10, 2013 by methodwriter85

[mmike1969]

Okay. Isidore is having sex with the father of her middle child's husband that looks exactly like her dead son.

 

Yeah much better.

 

Edited May 10, 2013 by mmike1969

[sat8997]

 

 I can see the point of view with Marie, where Noah was making her feel uncomfortable and guilty because he liked her and she felt like a bitch for saying no because a nice girl doesn't say no to a nice guy who likes her. Will only joined up with Menlo by January and we didn't see any of the school year at Menlo...we don't know how Noah interacted with Marie or whether or not he tried to "shame" her into dating him. It's actually something that's been discussed in feminist circles...

 

     "Nice Guy Syndrome" is the idea of men who become fixated on being "nice" towards a pretty girl, and begins to develop feelings for her. Because he's nice to her, it starts to become this expectation that she'll reciprocate his feelings. Women are trained to be culturally gentle when trying to let down a guy, and maybe Noah just didn't get the hint so she finally went the bitch route.

 

 

Seriously?? I swear you just make this stuff up as you go along.

 

Marie had no problem with Noah. In fact she gave Will the impression that they were good friends. Her problem didn't start until he showed interest in her and asked her out. She wasn't interested in him that way, didn't want to tell him that, made up some bullshit and then got caught out on her bullshit. Now she's dug her heels in and just continues to make herself look bad.

 

 

If your daughter came to you and said "This guy really creeps me out, and I'd really rather he not be there", you are going to listen.  If your daughter then clams up and wont tell you more, you might make a mental note to watch out for it in future, or maybe talk to the guys parents.  What you might NOT do, is talk to the boy's best friend about it (who happens to be your nephew).

 

Yeah - but I'm also going to insist she tell me why especially when they've been good friends for some time. I'm going to want to know what changed. I'm also going to make a point to talk to my nephew about the need to remove his friend - one of only two he invited - from the list. And maybe at the same time I'd check with that nephew to verify that my daughter - who I specifically told needed to apologize to her cousin - did, in fact, apologize. Because sometimes kids agree to a parent's instructions but then don't follow through. But, then again, I'm not Clair...I'm Tonto...sort of.

Edited May 11, 2013 by sat8997

[PrivateTim]

I think the part most of you who want Will to 'get what's coming to him' fail to realize is that most 14 year olds in his situations would be in a pysch ward by this point. You want Will to either be a child or insanely mature at all times. Let's review his life a little

1. the older brother that he adore's grows up and doesn't have time for him

2. his mother turns batshit crazy, hates him and makes his life a living hell

3. both of his fathers have all but abandoned him for their jobs

4. he's raped on vacation

5. his younger brother turns into a bitch (with good reason that he only found out later)

6. one of his fathers then turns on him

7. he had to fight like hell to win his independence because his mother was making his life hell and no one would help him

8. now his cousin is turning against him

9. his grandmother and aunt are all but telling him he doesn't really matter to the family as long as the only female grandchild (excluding the baby) gets her way

Most adults wouldn't be able to handle all of that, and to expect a teenager to do it is crazy. 

In regards to his thinking that it's not his job to make someone else be faithful, you have to remember Will has learned, through all of the above mention events, that each person is responsible for themselves. His actions had consequences and he was made to deal with them, to me, in his mind Kyle had to deal with his own consequences and it wasn't Will's place to make him act right.

 

1. Hello.....  that is any younger brother, your older brother (or sister) never has the time for you that you think you deserve

2. Long before Will's mother's turned batshit crazy he treated her like dirt and Brad undercut her at every turn, maybe the two of them deserve blame for the breakdown

3. Please....  his father's didn't spend any more time in their jobs than any other high level execs and lots of parents who work three jobs and they turn out fine

4. True, which is why he should have been in therapy from the day he got back and wasn't

5. Well he was actually older and again, lots of people have bitchy siblings and all the above too, it isn't unique

6. His perception is his father turned on him, what do you think Robbie's perception was? How much did Brad leave Robbie out of the loop with Will, just like he did to Jeannie

7. He didn't fight like hell, it was actually fast and Jeannie wasn't even around

8. Will jumped into her world with both feet and stirred up trouble, who is at fault here?

9. I didn't hear Isidore or Claire say any such thing or imply it, but Will still thinks the world revolves around him. I have criticism for Claire, but more on that later. I don't think Will handled it the way a mature person would. You don't create drama and ruin dinner for everyone. You go to JP for quiet advice. Not only is it the mature thing, it is quite Machiavellian.

 

 

I actually think that some of you are making entirely too big a deal about removing Noah from the list.  If your daughter came to you and said "This guy really creeps me out, and I'd really rather he not be there", you are going to listen.  If your daughter then clams up and wont tell you more, you might make a mental note to watch out for it in future, or maybe talk to the guys parents.  What you might NOT do, is talk to the boy's best friend about it (who happens to be your nephew).

 

I think it's got blown out of proportion.

 

However, after hearing the REAL reasons, maybe Claire should have had the decency to agree that he should be reinstated.  Maybe both Claire and her mother were just a little too defensive of the guys who assaulted Will and Darius (- by the way, I think Will should press charges now to teach these guys what SERIOUS embarrassment is like).

 

I don't think Claire is a bad person.  She seems a little shallow, but where it counts she comes down on the right side (remember her appearance in Clairmont to help Gathen's sister - whose name escapes me?).  I certainly don't think Isadore a bad grandmother.  I think she probably finds it more effective to leave heavy involvement to JP.  It also must be said that we have been told time and again that her suite of rooms is tucked well out of the way, so that she isn't disturbed by night-time antics of her over-sexed household.

 

I don't think Claire is a bad person or shallow. She hasn't had reasons to doubt her daughter's word in the past but maybe things are changing with Typhoon Will on the scene or maybe Marie has mislead her parents in the past and didn't get busted.

 

The phrase, "creeps me (her) out" was never in play, it was she was "uncomfortable". Without Noah being part of a prominent family in the area, apparently he was more easily expendable than the hoity toity.

 

I DO think that the Claire we have come to know, would have come and talked to Will about it, because that is how Claire seems to me, but Mark has to take poetic license with the characters to move the drama where he wants it to go. The question is, did the guest list have the name of the inviter?  How did Marie know Noah was on it? Surely Marie must have known the spit would hit the fan at some point.

 

Will didn't give Claire a chance to say that Noah should be reinstated, he pulled that class warfare BS straight out of his recently expaned heiny, another immature, passive aggressive stance; "because you didn't invite any Native Americans, you hate Native Americans". It is a straw dog argument straight from the manure pile in the stables.

 

If there was a problem with Claire & Jack and their kids not going to Claremont, that is JP's issue to deal with not Will's. Jack and Claire didn't committ to rebuild Claremont, that was the men of the Crampton/Schluter and now Hayes, based in part on Gathan's challenge.

 

As to Isidore, do we know how much time she spends in The City? Surely she would have an apartment there for business and shopping reasons. Frank and she are bit players so we never know what is going on with them (or Ace) so we don't really know what they know and don't.

 

 

  

    Although Westie does have a good point.We've never seen CAP through the eyes of a female. As someone who went to a high school that was over 2/3's female, I noticed that girls will often have to deal with nice guys who keep hitting on them but just refuse to get the hint. I can see the point of view with Marie, where Noah was making her feel uncomfortable and guilty because he liked her and she felt like a bitch for saying no because a nice girl doesn't say no to a nice guy who likes her. Will only joined up with Menlo by January and we didn't see any of the school year at Menlo...we don't know how Noah interacted with Marie or whether or not he tried to "shame" her into dating him. It's actually something that's been discussed in feminist circles...

 

     "Nice Guy Syndrome" is the idea of men who become fixated on being "nice" towards a pretty girl, and begins to develop feelings for her. Because he's nice to her, it starts to become this expectation that she'll reciprocate his feelings. Women are trained to be culturally gentle when trying to let down a guy, and maybe Noah just didn't get the hint so she finally went the bitch route.

 

Speaking of bat shit crazy......

 

We have gone from Noah making Marie "uncomfortable" and asking her out ONCE to "he creeps her out" and "a nice guys who keeps hitting on her".

 

There is nothing textual or even subtextual to support either of the Tyra Banks pop-psychology assertions.

[B1ue]

I DO think that the Claire we have come to know, would have come and talked to Will about it, because that is how Claire seems to me, but Mark has to take poetic license with the characters to move the drama where he wants it to go. The question is, did the guest list have the name of the inviter?  How did Marie know Noah was on it? Surely Marie must have known the spit would hit the fan at some point..

 

That was the issue I had. It's not that Claire, Isiodore, or even Marie are evil. Well, probably not Marie; I am giving her the benefit of the doubt that she didn't pull this to punish Will in a backhanded way, same as Will. It's just that making this change without confronting Will about it right away was tactically stupid. What exactly did they think was going to happen when he found out? He's not exactly known for the ability to moderate his response to stimuli. But pulling him aside, telling him what was going to happen (without actually implying he had a vote) might have at least kept the screaming to a minimum.

 

I also realize now that Will and Darius might have greater cause to exclude Eric and Carter than I'd originally estimated. Eric, sure, as that was only a week old, but I thought Carter was an odd thing to bring up. But I realize now that Will, as written, is at a basic level less inclined towards violence than I am used to, so it was difficult for me to grasp just how shocking someone trying to beat him up would be to his system.

Edited May 11, 2013 by B1ue

[PrivateTim]

What a wonderful summary.  That does help to explain why some of the characters I've created turn out so warped.  Maybe you can do the same thing for Tony for PrivateTim's benefit.

 

There is one other thing to consider, and one which will ultimately come up when Nana chimes in down the road.  Will told Nana that if it weren't for Claire and Isidore, he wouldn't really have women in his life who loved him (in Paternity, when they were riding horses).  That may explain even more his volatile reaction.

 

I just have a hard time with "Will, the Unluckiest Boy Ever". The crazy mother, father's who are busy, a brother who ignores him, other brother is snippy. Boo hoo, cry me a frickin' river.

 

I know the boys from Father's Tim shelter. They didn't have fathers who were too busy, in fact they had fathers who carved out special time to beat the fuck out of the little queer and it never even mattered if they were gay or not, not being maculine enough was reason enough. And far from a bro who ignored them, they had a brother who joined in on the beatings. They didn't have snippy sibblings, they had sibblings who outed them at school and stood by while boyfriends took their crack at them. The moms weren't batshit crazy, they were too strung out to do much of anything.

 

And unlike Will, they aren't almost raped once, they've been raped mutliple times on the street and maybe paid for it, maybe not and maybe infected too. They don't get dropped off by their chauffeur/body guard at school, they don't go to school, because it is either a place they've been abused or if they are on the street, there is no adult to get them into school and even if there was a way in, with maybe two sets of clothes they can wash once a week or so they are too ripe during the week.

 

I was hoping exposure to the kids at Father Tim's or Jeff might get through to Will he had a very charmed existence despite his percieved "tough" circumstances. He needs to go out with Father Tim at 1:30AM and watch how he convinces kids who have entirely given up on humanity that there is a reason to care about their own lives and that there are people who care about them. It doesn't happen over night, it takes months of patient work sometimes and have the kids wonder if you are just another perv wanting in thier pants (and they say so).

 

I love the CAP series to death, it entertains me to no end and I appreciate all the work that Mark pours into it, but sometimes I need to read "A Rent Boy Named...." just for some gritty reality.

Edited May 11, 2013 by PrivateTim