Voice

[Former Member]

I've been coming across this a lot in writing, just generally all over.  The tone and the voice of whatever I'm reading does not match at ALL the character or narrator.  I find this to be incredibly annoying.  There is no way an uneducated grumpy old man (for example) should be using words and language like an English professor that got his phD in hard to find synonyms for basic words.  It just doesn't fit the character.

 

Sometimes I find myself doing the exact same thing.  But typically this is for my eyes only.  And I find it annoying even in myself.  Don't get me wrong, I think having a good vocabulary is great thing.  But there comes a point when it starts coming out so poetic and convoluted that it just doesn't FIT with anything else in the story.  Yea, there are a lot of awesome words, but does the character even have the capacity to know what those words mean?  Or I guess the question is: SHOULD they?

 

I went through great lengths with my story Messy Business to make things sound believable.  I wanted people to see Stef's personality through the words he used.  He's a punky tattoo artist.  He isn't going to use the word ephemeral.  He probably couldn't even spell it.

 

So I guess the question is, what can we as writers do to fix this problem?  A teenager should sound like a teenager and so forth.  But what's a good compromise.  Yea, I wanna show off my impressive vocabulary.  But where should I draw the line between poetic and believable?

 

 

^-^ thanks!

[Cia]

Always go with believable. Poetry only works if you are writing a poet. One thing that might be helpful is to people watch/listen. Coffee shops, sports venues, grocery store... if you keep your eyes and ears open you can see all sorts of people doing all sorts of things 'naturally'. After that, it's just firmly planting your character in your mind and keeping track of your details.

[Sasha Distan]

I agree with Cia, observation is key. when i hear one of the kids say something that i find interesting, it sticks in my head until one of my characters needs it. people watching is fab.

 

I agree about the voice/character problem. sometimes it is painful enough to make me stop reading totally. i try to keep my characters voice's fairly even, but it is something i tend to find happens most with side characters. they start off a certain way, and then the writer drops their voice and they become the same as the main character. like you, i find this very annoying.

[joann414]

I agree and let your editor slap your hands a few times.    Then you pay attention

Edited June 4, 2013 by joann414

[Gene Splicer PHD]

What, you don't like it when a 15 year old says to his buddy that "I would like you to come to our home for a wonderful repast and an overnight stay" instead of saying that he wants his friend to crash at his place?

[Thorn Wilde]

I tend to know exactly what my characters sound like, what manner of words they'd use, etc. That being said, I kind of like to toss it up sometimes, have a character use a phrase they normally wouldn't use, or insert the odd big word into the speech of a character who generally wouldn't use them. Because we do that, don't we? Learn a new big word, and you tend to want to use it in conversation. One memorable occasion where I did this was chapter 3 of Nemesis:

 

‘Yeah,’ agreed Linda. ‘I mean, obviously… I feel so stupid for having fallen for it, really. Now I know what he’s really like, you won’t see me pandering for his attention any time soon.’ She smiled at Nick. ‘You are such a better person!’

 

The out of character use of a word like 'pandering' is made all the more obvious by the poor grammar in the following line. I love language. I find this sort of thing hilarious.

 

Likewise, having a person who usually waxes poetic or speaks in big, wide, academic sentences use a really simple or profane word can have a very interesting effect.

 

On a similar note, in Sam Sykes's fantasy novel Tome of the Undergates, there are a bunch of pirates who attack a ship and they all speak extremely eloquently. The effect is slightly bizarre and very entertaining. 

[Former Member]

I tend to know exactly what my characters sound like, what manner of words they'd use, etc. That being said, I kind of like to toss it up sometimes, have a character use a phrase they normally wouldn't use, or insert the odd big word into the speech of a character who generally wouldn't use them. Because we do that, don't we? Learn a new big word, and you tend to want to use it in conversation. One memorable occasion where I did this was chapter 3 of Nemesis:

 

 

The out of character use of a word like 'pandering' is made all the more obvious by the poor grammar in the following line. I love language. I find this sort of thing hilarious.

 

Likewise, having a person who usually waxes poetic or speaks in big, wide, academic sentences use a really simple or profane word can have a very interesting effect.

 

On a similar note, in Sam Sykes's fantasy novel Tome of the Undergates, there are a bunch of pirates who attack a ship and they all speak extremely eloquently. The effect is slightly bizarre and very entertaining. 

 

But see, I noticed that in Nemesis, but I figured she was in school and learning these new words so she'd want to use them, even though it might make some people wonder what the hell she was smoking.

 

And I guess I see the problem more often when things are in first person where the narrator's voice totally doesn't match the character.  When a five year old is using words with more letters than the numbers he can count to, it's kind of a problem unless that five year old is a super genius and it's part of his character.  But for a normal five year old?  Really?

 

Guh.  Frustrating.  *writer problems*

[Thorn Wilde]

But see, I noticed that in Nemesis, but I figured she was in school and learning these new words so she'd want to use them, even though it might make some people wonder what the hell she was smoking.

 

And I guess I see the problem more often when things are in first person where the narrator's voice totally doesn't match the character.  When a five year old is using words with more letters than the numbers he can count to, it's kind of a problem unless that five year old is a super genius and it's part of his character.  But for a normal five year old?  Really?

 

Guh.  Frustrating.  *writer problems*

 

Yeah, this is why I rarely write in first person. I can use my own voice for the narrative.

[Former Member]

Yeah, this is why I rarely write in first person. I can use my own voice for the narrative.

 

I like the challenge!  My own voice is pretty developed, but tends to be...very poetic.  So it hardly ever works in any of my stories. DX so I use first person to develop someone else's! XD

[The Pecman]

Yeah, this is why I rarely write in first person. I can use my own voice for the narrative.

 

That's a good compromise. If you write in 3rd-person omniscient, then the "unseen narrator" can be extremely glib, well-educated, and comment as required. 

 

If it's 1st person, then your dialect, vocabulary, and knowledge are all limited to the character involved. A few times in 1st person POV stories I've been guilty of getting a little too poetic with their descriptions, and I try to cut that back a little bit in editing. I think you can get away with it a little bit, depending on the age, education, and sophistication of the characters.

[Former Member]

Actually executed 3rd person omniscent is so freaking hard though.  From what I've seen most do not understand the purpose of 3rd person omni as being a NARRATOR.  They more or less execute it as a lot of shifting using 3rd person limited.  And THAT is so hard to read and understand.  Everytime someone tries to write third omni, I get a little wary.  There was one book that was so poorly written in third omni that it felt like I was getting motion sickness from all the point of view changes.

[Thorn Wilde]

I generally do third person limited, so I do have to pay some attention to how my main character thinks and their voice has to be a part of it... But it gives me more freedom than first, anyway. I think this is why I'm having so much fun writing Ben, because he's an actor, drama comes very naturally to him, and his voice is very descriptive in and of itself, so when I describe his thoughts and feelings, using big words and poetic turns works out really well.

[Former Member]

I generally do third person limited, so I do have to pay some attention to how my main character thinks and their voice has to be a part of it... But it gives me more freedom than first, anyway. I think this is why I'm having so much fun writing Ben, because he's an actor, drama comes very naturally to him, and his voice is very descriptive in and of itself, so when I describe his thoughts and feelings, using big words and poetic turns works out really well.

 

You'd better hurry up and post it!

[Thorn Wilde]

You'd better hurry up and post it!

 

Yettie's betaing the first chapter at the moment. Once I get it back I'll do my edits and hopefully have it up within a day. Until then, you'll have to take it up with him.

[Former Member]

Don't want to anger the yettie...

[The Pecman]

Actually executed 3rd person omniscent is so freaking hard though.  From what I've seen most do not understand the purpose of 3rd person omni as being a NARRATOR.  They more or less execute it as a lot of shifting using 3rd person limited.  And THAT is so hard to read and understand.

 

I think the trick is to make it 3rd person limited point of view, so that you're not constantly leaping into other people's heads. Assuming the story is just about one main character, we should hear his thoughts most of the time, and I would be very careful about doing it with other people. Internal monologues can work, to a point, particularly when the description is written in the same tone of voice as a specific character's dialogue.

 

Stephen King does this extremely well, particularly when he describes a scene slanted towards the view of one specific character -- even a character we hate, one who's crazy, or is otherwise up to no good. It gives us access to more knowledge than the character knows, which can set up a lot of moments where the audience can say, "uh-oh! Our hero has no idea he's about to walk into a trap!" You don't have that capability in 1st person.

[Former Member]

Very true.  In suspense writing that kind of thing is very important.  I can't write suspense for crap and first person seriously comes easy for me, so I don't really mind either which way.  3rd person limited is great and it makes things flow so much easier.  I like the concept of 3rd person omni, but with how poorly it's commonly executed, I wouldn't even want to try, lol

[Sasha Distan]

I think the trick is to make it 3rd person limited point of view, so that you're not constantly leaping into other people's heads. Assuming the story is just about one main character, we should hear his thoughts most of the time, and I would be very careful about doing it with other people. Internal monologues can work, to a point, particularly when the description is written in the same tone of voice as a specific character's dialogue.

 

Whereas i am actually challenging myself right now with a story written in unlimited 3rd POV, with characters who have rather different internal voices. we'll see how that goes...

[Former Member]

I'll read it.

[The Pecman]

Whereas i am actually challenging myself right now with a story written in unlimited 3rd POV, with characters who have rather different internal voices. we'll see how that goes...

 

That can work. I've cheated in some stories by giving some characters strong regional accents, so it's pretty clear who's talking and how their thought process works. I've used stutters, people who curse like sailors, people who have very clipped, precise speech, and people who are poorly educated, all in an effort to give each one a distinct voice. 

 

I think 3rd omniscient is risky, because it could become harder for the reader to choose which character to identify with. To me, most stories are about one central character and everything else revolves around them. But there are always exceptions, particularly a grand, sweeping epic with lots of speaking roles and a story that takes place over a long period of time. That hasn't been my thing, at least not thus far.

[Zombie]

So I guess the question is, what can we as writers do to fix this problem?  A teenager should sound like a teenager and so forth.  But what's a good compromise.  Yea, I wanna show off my impressive vocabulary.  But where should I draw the line between poetic and believable?

 

Read. Read acclaimed published stuff. Stuff that's been around a while and been tested. If it's still popular now then you can be sure the author had some worthwhile writing skills you can maybe learn from. I know it's almost a cliche book, but the reason The Catcher In The Rye is still so popular after 60+ years is because Salinger's writing is so convincing as the teenaged narrator Holden Caulfield. You believe that you are seeing his world subjectively through his eyes. Why else would young adolescent males still identify with Caulfield so strongly three generations later?

 

Few writers will ever be this successful so it's worth re-reading and learning from this book and many others, like Raymond Chandler. Chandler's style is more period and maybe eccentric but it works because, again, the writing enables you to see another world through the narrator's eyes and believe in it

[W_L]

Well, basically, the voice is very difficult to cultivate.

 

1st person for me with my own voice is short and very realistic, but I know I lack empathy as a character. In my last story "Language of Love", I wrote with a shotgun at my hip, tracing my own love life. If that had gone better, who knows, I might have turned it into a really long story with 2K chapters. However, as a writer and human being, the writer is just like anyone else, so his story is imperfect and I can guess that readers want a happy ending, not a real life ending with shades of gray (Not the BDSM shades of Gray, but just reality).

 

I am attempting to write a different way this time around with a new fiction story, part mystery, part fantasy, and part science fiction. I want to attempt writing in POV again with less heavy handed detail.

 

Great writers are also disturbed as well by their stories, they are eccentrics for reasons beyond their own control. A truly great voice based writer must be able to characterize diverse characters with their own views and actions as independent parts of the writers mind. If a writer writes about a psychopathic serial killer, he must be able to imagine himself as a psychopath killer. If he is writing about a lonely orphan, he must crouch down and imagine his life as an orphan. If he is a gay author, writing about a chauvinistic straight womanizer, well, he has to write in that character, so he has to imagine a truly heterosexual persona within himself.

 

The other name for "character voice" is persona, which is also a psychological identity. Persona at the highest levels of character writing is a mask that a writer can put on and immediately jump into character with. I know I am not a great writer in splitting my mind into many directions without going nuts, but one or two voices is manageable at a time.

[Thorn Wilde]

I've been amusing myself lately by writing characters who swear a lot. And I mean a LOT. I've been writing in present tense to give the narrative a sort of hectic immediacy, and keeping my main character's rather potty-mouthed internal monologue in the forefront. It's different, entirely unsentimental, and so much fun that I'm not sure how I'll ever be able to write in any other voice again. This feels very much like my voice.

[joann414]

I seem to be stuck in sentimentally romantic, but I am using the "f" word more, and letting my characters vent more verbally. 

[Thorn Wilde]

I seem to be stuck in sentimentally romantic, but I am using the "f" word more, and letting my characters vent more verbally. 

 

See, I like that. I always find characters who swear more believable, unless there's some really good reason for them not to.