mmike1969 Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Will wouldn't have a beard. He'd have a purse, whose function would be to look pretty and hold things for Will. I am almost positive it's called satchel at this time. 1
methodwriter85 Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) I am almost positive it's called satchel at this time. No, Satchel Farrow changed his name to Ronan. Edited May 31, 2014 by methodwriter85 1
B1ue Posted June 2, 2014 Posted June 2, 2014 Barry is stupid, isn't he? Or narrow minded. He seems to not be aware that he's in the middle of a multi-story soap opera, and that enemy he's quietly nurturing is a protagonist. More seriously, he seems to not get how important Will thinks he is to this endeavor. Or if he does get it, doesn't agree (which, fair enough, I bet a lot of players he's mentored had girlfriends that wanted to control their boyfriends). If that's the case, why try to negotiate with Will at all? This continual dismissal of Will is odd, when placed next to meeting of the minds they all had a couple chapters ago. As it is, he's setting things up where Will is not going to feel bound to go along with anything Barry has to say. That may have interesting consequences, down the road, especially if Will has figured out "measured response" by that point. 3
Kitt Posted June 2, 2014 Posted June 2, 2014 As it is, he's setting things up where Will is not going to feel bound to go along with anything Barry has to say. That may have interesting consequences, down the road, especially if Will has figured out "measured response" by that point. Possibly more so if he has not! 1
methodwriter85 Posted June 2, 2014 Posted June 2, 2014 More seriously, he seems to not get how important Will thinks he is to this endeavor. Or if he does get it, doesn't agree (which, fair enough, I bet a lot of players he's mentored had girlfriends that wanted to control their boyfriends). If that's the case, why try to negotiate with Will at all? This continual dismissal of Will is odd, when placed next to meeting of the minds they all had a couple chapters ago. I think Barry is figuring that the thing between Zach and Will is just a puppy love deal, and if he can stop them from seeing each other, you'll get the whole thing to fizzle out and then he doesn't have to deal with Zach hiding a boyfriend. 3
Kitt Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 If he thinks Will is going to give up that easy he has another think coming! 2
Daddydavek Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 (edited) I agree with B1ue, you really don't want to make Will your enemy! Edited June 3, 2014 by Daddydavek 1
Headstall Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 I think maybe that Zach's parents and their hatred of Will have assisted in creating an unholy triumvirate with Barry....they all want to control Zach by getting rid of Will's influence...and the only one who can do anything about it is Zach. Unfortunately, so far, Zach has not shown the savvy or fortitude to diffuse this power struggle.It remains to be seen whether he will listen and learn from the apprentice master himself...namely Will. Cheers...Gary
PrivateTim Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 I think maybe that Zach's parents and their hatred of Will have assisted in creating an unholy triumvirate with Barry....they all want to control Zach by getting rid of Will's influence...and the only one who can do anything about it is Zach. Unfortunately, so far, Zach has not shown the savvy or fortitude to diffuse this power struggle.It remains to be seen whether he will listen and learn from the apprentice master himself...namely Will. Cheers...Gary Zach would have to come to a place where he loves Will more then he does football and he is no where near that now. It has nothing to do with savvy or fortitude, but is a case of priorities. 2
John Prz Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 What the fuck is Zack thinking??? Is he stupid or what? That's a no brainer decision... Poor Wade... it almost make me feel bad that he's alone in Boston... ah wait, he has JJ! Matt&Cam... mhhh i wanna see where this friendship is going to end. (another Max on the way?) If Will think Josh should be scared to talk to Brad, I would like to know what Zack is going to think when JP will call him...
Headstall Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 Zach would have to come to a place where he loves Will more then he does football and he is no where near that now. It has nothing to do with savvy or fortitude, but is a case of priorities. Quote from PrivateTim... Dude, I respect your opinion, but i really don't get where you are coming from on this one. I don't see why Zach needs to love Will more than football. That is like saying we can' have love, and passion for something co-exist. I think Zach needs to love Will enough to put Will first when it is warranted (and I don't mean when it is convenient).Granted,making this relationship work along side a pro football career is fraught with peril, and may even end up not doable in the long run, but it shouldn't be because Zach needed to love Will more than football. I do agree that it is a case of priorities, and that is where the savvy and fortitude come in. Zach has to be savvy enough to pick his battles, see the motivations behind what others do that will affect his relationship, and learn how to navigate through power struggles that pull him in different directions. And for that he will definately need the fortitude to stand his ground. Zach's problem isn't that he doesn't love Will enough...It's that he isn't smart enough to see what is going on around him...at least not yet. He could learn a lot from Will and his family that would enlighten him and strenghen his resolve to not be pushed around, take control of his career, AND build a solid GIVE AND TAKE relationship with Will. Unfortunately, he may figure this out to late...indications are that he could get overwhelmed and bury his head in the sand. After all, he is still quite young...and only Mark knows what is going to happen...cheers 1
Daddydavek Posted June 4, 2014 Posted June 4, 2014 Mark has presented Will as perceiving this as Zach being caught in a power game and Will considers himself good at such games. Therefore, he believes he can win this one if he "plays" it right. Despite being shown all about power games repeatedly in the past several months, Zach still appears to be clueless as to how they are played or when they are played on him. His focus remains fixed on his career ambitions. He wants to make it out of Claremont on his own and this skews his perspective every time. Adding his 'advisor' into the mix, is where it could get really scary. Will is not above employing some reality checks on that smarmy little toad to teach him a lesson he will never forget. Of course, Matt could just talk to Zach and make him understand one jock to another what it is all about and Arbour could choose that option as well. I guess we will just have to stay tuned..... 1
PrivateTim Posted June 4, 2014 Posted June 4, 2014 I think the point remains that Will is not as important to Zach as football is. He has said as much and he has demonstrated as much. 1
Headstall Posted June 4, 2014 Posted June 4, 2014 To PrivateTim.... On the surface, yes. Zach has spent the better part of his school life focused on football..and it has been the driving force in all his decisions. But the dynamic has changed because he fell in love with Will, and now he must adapt to make room for BOTH in his life. So far he has been naive and a little slow to get what he needs to do.There is a way to make it all work but it remains to be seen whether he will "get a clue" in time. If he stops letting others direct his life he could find a way to give Will what he needs and still keep his football dreams going forward. There is no doubt in my mind that he truly loves Will and would probably be beyond devastated if he loses him. Aaaahhhh...young love...cheers
Timothy M. Posted June 4, 2014 Posted June 4, 2014 I think the point remains that Will is not as important to Zach as football is. He has said as much and he has demonstrated as much. I agree. And Will has accepted this deal and has told Zach so. But he's also said, he needs to be the second most important thing. This means having his opinion weigh more than Zach's parents and agent. Especiall since Will is actually smart and his understanding of the latest issue is spot on (I assume we all agree on that ?). So if Zach doesn't catch on, he'll lose Will - not because he puts football first, but because he's unable to deal with his interfering and manipulating parents and his stupid agent. And the sad thing is that Zach has several people who are more than willing to help him if he asks: JP, Frank, Brad - probably even Cody. He can use them (especially JP) to check on whether Will is right about his analysis but also for backing him up or even to deal with the situation - mainly with Barry who already said going to Europe with JP was cool. So I agree with Headstall that the problem isn't Zach loving Will less than football, but his lack of a spine and a brain in function. I really look forward to seeing how this situation develops, I hope Will manages to avoid the 'Matt mistake' of reacting emotionally rather than rationally. Partly because the thought of Brad's reaction if Will gets his heart broken is rather scary 3
Mark Arbour Posted June 5, 2014 Author Posted June 5, 2014 Zach has an interesting dilemma. He clearly is the kind of guy who has an anchor, someone who he trusts completely, and who he invests himself in. When he moved to New Jersey, and along with that realized that Wally and Clara weren't going to be there for him (in various ways), he grabbed for Will and got lucky. Probably for the first time, he's having to negotiate between football and his anchor, and he has to learn to make both a priority, or he will end up damaging or destroying his relationship with Will. 1
B1ue Posted June 5, 2014 Posted June 5, 2014 To PrivateTim.... On the surface, yes. Zach has spent the better part of his school life focused on football..and it has been the driving force in all his decisions. But the dynamic has changed because he fell in love with Will, and now he must adapt to make room for BOTH in his life. Here's the thing, he has made room for both Will and football in his life. Will simply is not being treated as if he had the same priority level as football. Sometimes that's the choice someone makes. Songs may sell us that all we need is love, but some people need something a little firmer to stand on, and will deliberately place love on a secondary tier. There isn't anything wrong with that, however much it may suck for Will, or for Zach in the long term, especially since Zach was both up front and honest throughout. And, with all due respect Mark, it's not Zach that's threatening his relationship with Will, it's Will himself. Will knew the score when they started dating, or thought he knew, I suppose. I've been reading the last couple chapters as representative of someone that is refusing to get that they are second place in someone else's life, which is running parallel to similar drama that Matt and Wade are going through. It doesn't even have to mean Will feels more for Zach, Will is just able to place that relationship as a higher priority than Zach is, just like Matt would be willing to place the relationship with Wade on a higher priority than Wade would be willing to reciprocate. 1
Headstall Posted June 5, 2014 Posted June 5, 2014 To Blue... We all have our own take on Zach and Will's issue and that is the way it should be.I would just say in response to your take...that Zach is SUPPOSED to make room for both but in this instance, he is not making room for Will, after promising to go with JP and Will to Europe. To me , this is not about first or second on the priority scale but rather finding the necessary balance to make this relationship work. I see Will as cooperating with Zach's career requirements so far. The real issue to me is that i think that Zach does not see the dangers that Will does, in how their situation is being manipulated by other people, and therein lies the real danger. This new exhibition is definitely suspect and Will knows it...Zach appears not to...and i think Will would be a fool to just let it go. I also believe that Will places Zach's happiness at the highest priority....he is not all about himself at all in this relationship . This was a done deal and their only time they could have together BECAUSE of Zach's schedule, so to say Will is being unreasonable would be unfair. I am not saying he couldn't have handled it a little more calmly but considering all the future implications, I think his reaction was very believable. Just to comment on your Matt/Wade speculation...I would have agreed with it at the beginning of Flux..but not any longer. In my mind, that dynamic has changed quite a bit.I don't see the parallel that you do . Cheers...Gary
B1ue Posted June 5, 2014 Posted June 5, 2014 There is also some culture clash at work, which Will laid out for Zach. In Will's family, extensive travel to many cultures is necessary for proper development. Zach would not see it that way, nor would any of the adults in his life besides Isiodore, and possibly Frank. The trip to Europe is presented to him, because he lacks the educational and cultural context, as a pleasure trip where he gets to spend time with some people he really admires, while the exhibition is being sold to him as critical to his career in both the long term and short term. Is it any wonder, presented like that, that he chose the more responsible path? He also did not see JP as dislocating his schedule for his (Zach's) benefit, he saw that as JP rearranging it for Will's benefit. I also see the relationship as working just fine based on the parameters they laid out. If Will dislikes it, and he seems to, it's his responsibility to object, which is exactly what he's doing. But just because he does that doesn't mean he'll get the outcome he wants, since Zach has to want it as well. And, as of now, Zach does not. And, no, I think the parallel between the two relationships still holds. Wade certainly loves Matt, and realizes he loves him a lot more than he thought he did at the beginning of Flux. But I don't see him making plans to move to Chicago just yet, nor have we seen him tell Matt, "Move in with me again, we'll figure out the details later." While Matt himself, the relationship he has with Matt, and even Matt's ultimate happiness are all quite important to Wade, he's not willing to compromise on certain things just yet, his long term career and scholastic goals chief among them.
Headstall Posted June 5, 2014 Posted June 5, 2014 Blue.. I think we should agree to disagree...I am not buying much of your post and you are not buying much of mine...that's what makes the world go round...Gary
B1ue Posted June 5, 2014 Posted June 5, 2014 If you are willing, would you please elaborate more on the quoted portion below? I think I understand the rest (and, as you said, I disagree with the majority), but I would like to check my understanding on this part. To me , this is not about first or second on the priority scale but rather finding the necessary balance to make this relationship work. Because that sounds like you think Zach needs to reprioritize his life, put some parts of his burgeoning football career on hold, even blow some of his related obligations off, to better accommodate Will's feelings. If you aren't trying to say that, I am interested to know what you do mean by that sentence. If that is in fact what you mean, well, I don't know what to say. I don't see the character as written being willing to do that, no matter the cost to his own personal life, no matter how deeply he loves Will. I think Barry is figuring that the thing between Zach and Will is just a puppy love deal, and if he can stop them from seeing each other, you'll get the whole thing to fizzle out and then he doesn't have to deal with Zach hiding a boyfriend. Related, while I do buy that Barry is trying to break up Zach and Will, I'm not sure that it's because Will is a guy. I think if Will had been Willa, Barry would still be urging Zach to "think long term" and "avoid distractions." Not that I know for sure that this is the language he's using, but it's consistent with the expectations they set up for Zach, where "they" includes Zach himself. 1
mmike1969 Posted June 5, 2014 Posted June 5, 2014 To everyone: They are teen boys. They are bitchy and they are moody. Not ALL are but I know I was . Yes the world DOES revolve around the teen boy in his own mind. That's why JP pretty much tries to ignore their lives. But Zach is not only ticking off Will but now JP might have to get involve because he changed HIS schedule for Zach. Yeah do that to me and I will get pissed. But that's just me. 5
methodwriter85 Posted June 5, 2014 Posted June 5, 2014 To everyone: They are teen boys. They are bitchy and they are moody. Not ALL are but I know I was . Yes the world DOES revolve around the teen boy in his own mind. That's why JP pretty much tries to ignore their lives. Not me. I was always the sweet, loveable, gentle, and agreeable young man you guys have had the pleasure of interacting with here. 3
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