Porn: Evil, good, or none of the above?

[Cia]

I can and do. It is not my job to monitor the viewing habits of other people. Do I think 'oh, it's not me or mine so I don't care if they watch illegal acts', no, and if you're taking it that way you're reading that single line out of the very clear context I put it in. I specifically said IF the content not crossing the line. If it's porn featuring children, or a live act of abuse or a 'real' snuff film, then it's wrong to watch and should be reported if you see it or know someone has it. But I will not stick my nose where it does not belong and judge the content of another person's porn library just as I would expect that common courtesy extended to me. There are legal agencies like the cops whose job it is to ferret out illegal activity like I mention, and I'm not part of them. Too many people in this world think it's okay to push their moral judgments on others, and that is something I won't take part in.

[Zombie]

No-one here could disagree when you say It is not my job to monitor the viewing habits of other people. But then no-one here has made that suggestion. I'm still not clear where your lines are drawn. You clearly have a line if it's real sex with obvious children, or real violent abuse, or real snuff. But not if these are simulated? For the viewer there may be no perceivable difference between reality and a simulation.

 

[Mark Arbour]

No-one here could disagree when you say It is not my job to monitor the viewing habits of other people. But then no-one here has made that suggestion. I'm still not clear where your lines are drawn. You clearly have a line if it's real sex with obvious children, or real violent abuse, or real snuff. But not if these are simulated? For the viewer there may be no perceivable difference between reality and a simulation.

 

 

WTF is a simulated child?

[Zombie]

WTF is a simulated child?

 

A good question. But CGI and other techniques have made it possible and very realistic. Heck, Gravity is 99% CGI, made by a British company on their computers in Slough or somewhere - only the actors' faces are real That's why UK "child porn" law includes "simulation".

[Cia]

You don't seem to be understanding me on this one element. I really don't think I've been unclear.

 

 

*IF* the situation is taking advantage of a person against their consent, or happens to someone incapable of consent, then it's wrong.

 

 

 

Pedophilia porn is not 'porn', to that I agree. That's abuse because it takes advantage of those who cannot consent.

 

 If it's porn featuring children, or a live act of abuse or a 'real' snuff film, then it's wrong to watch and should be reported if you see it or know someone has it.

 

As I've said before and am saying again, children CANNOT consent, so that is not kink. A real child, or 3D/graphic porn depicting a child is wrong and in most places, illegal. If I knew someone had kiddie porn I'd report them in a heartbeat, but I'm not going to go looking for it. If I thought someone had a snuff film, or I came across one, I'd report it to have it analyzed, but again... I'm not going searching for it. They're not to my taste, so why would I look for those?

 

My line regarding legitimate porn is fluid, however. I believe all sorts of porn kinks are not for me, so I don't watch those, but I don't care if someone else gets off on them. I will not judge someone else for their private preferences, especially if you slap the word 'abuse' on it. What one person would be offended and harmed by, another gets off on. That's why I leave the policing of things such as that to the professionals.

[Zombie]

This thread simply invited others to chime in about whether porn is evil, good or none of the above. It isn't about reporting, or acting as policemen, or actively looking for bad stuff so I'm a bit puzzled where this has come from.

Your view about child porn is now clear - makes no difference whether it's real or not - but not for the other two areas: simulated violent abuse and simulated snuff. You've only given your view on "live" abuse or "real" snuff.
 

[Cia]

You know, I've been repeating myself A LOT in response to your questions, so here we go again, one last time, to see if you can comprehend. I do not pass judgment on simulated events that may or may not arouse other people, even if I find them morally or sexually distasteful. What is abusive for one person can be arousing for another. If, for any reason, you believe you've seen a real act of physical abuse such as a beating and/or rape or murder being bandied about as porn, then report it. Let the authorities, whose job it is to judge such acts as legal or illegal, decide.

 

But I will not sit here and say that 'paddling a person' or 'choking someone unconscious' or 'pissing on someone' is abuse, therefore evil. If someone were to smack me in the face and call me a slut, I'd probably slug them in return. Someone else might get aroused by that, which would make it 'good'. Whoopie for them, if both they, and their partner, are into that kind of thing. You seem to want me to pass a statement of what is good or evil when it comes to some types of porn that mimic real world violence or abuse, and I just can't do that. One, there are so many different sexual acts out there I'd be writing forever. Two, what I find arousing or do in my sex life is personal and private. Three, what is 'right' for me and my partner is not always right for anyone else and their partner.

 

Life does not always fall into absolutes. There is not always a black and white answer. In this case, for me, there is a whole world of gray, so I guess 'none of the above' fits. Context matters.

[Zombie]

You seem to want me to pass a statement of what is good or evil when it comes to some types of porn that mimic real world violence or abuse, and I just can't do that.

 

Yeah I did. Sorry about that. But that is the question in the title of this thread

 

So to answer that question... I think most porn is not just bad it's crap, some porn is good - in quality and also for those excluded from a sex life maybe because they're disabled or elderly, as well as horny teenagers - and some porn is evil.

 

You also said "Context matters". I agree with you. Which is why, unlike you, I do worry about simulated videos that realistically portray people being subjected to violent non-consensual sex - violent rape is apparently popular - or murdered, and which are made to sexually stimulate and arouse viewers and to connect their arousal specifically with those scenes of violence and murder. You may say there's no proof that videos like this have ever changed or corrupted anyone. But it's incontestable that they portray behaviours. Terrible social behaviours. And human social behaviours are largely learned, not innate. So if society at large takes the view that it's fine to enjoy what you enjoy and don't worry about what someone else enjoys watching, or making for people to watch, then at some level this is tacit endorsement that these videos and these behaviours are OK. There is no social upside with these videos but a real social downside that puts everyone else at risk.

[Slytherin]

Didn't I tell you to behave, Zombie  not a big fan of porn, most porn sucks prefere to read stories, not watch.. 

[Mark Arbour]

You know, I've been repeating myself A LOT in response to your questions, so here we go again, one last time, to see if you can comprehend. I do not pass judgment on simulated events that may or may not arouse other people, even if I find them morally or sexually distasteful. What is abusive for one person can be arousing for another. If, for any reason, you believe you've seen a real act of physical abuse such as a beating and/or rape or murder being bandied about as porn, then report it. Let the authorities, whose job it is to judge such acts as legal or illegal, decide.

 

But I will not sit here and say that 'paddling a person' or 'choking someone unconscious' or 'pissing on someone' is abuse, therefore evil. If someone were to smack me in the face and call me a slut, I'd probably slug them in return. Someone else might get aroused by that, which would make it 'good'. Whoopie for them, if both they, and their partner, are into that kind of thing. You seem to want me to pass a statement of what is good or evil when it comes to some types of porn that mimic real world violence or abuse, and I just can't do that. One, there are so many different sexual acts out there I'd be writing forever. Two, what I find arousing or do in my sex life is personal and private. Three, what is 'right' for me and my partner is not always right for anyone else and their partner.

 

Life does not always fall into absolutes. There is not always a black and white answer. In this case, for me, there is a whole world of gray, so I guess 'none of the above' fits. Context matters.

 

I share your views, and your frustration.

[TetRefine]

Cadinot, the famous gay porn producer, shot a scene where a group of boys rape another boy in the middle of the night in a dorm. The scene was complete with the "victim" crying and acting very terrified as he was used by this group. This was part of a popular and mainstream gay porn movie, and watched by hundreds of thousands. In fact, it is a highly watched clip on many mainstream gay tube sites. 

 

Fraternity X, a very popular gay site, also features many scenes where the actors playing drunken frat boys basically rape and abuse the bottoms. 

 

So I'll ask the question. Is simulated rape wrong in porn? Can it even be called rape since all the actors are consenting? Do you think it encourages real rape? If a couple acts out a rape fantasy where they are both willing, does that make them sick or more likely to rape someone for real? 

 

My answer to all of these are no, but I'm curious to hear other responses. 

Edited March 19, 2014 by TetRefine

[Graeme]

So I'll ask the question. Is simulated rape wrong in porn? Can it even be called rape since all the actors are consenting? Do you think it encourages real rape? If a couple acts out a rape fantasy where they are both willing, does that make them sick or more likely to rape someone for real? 

 

I won't answer that particular question, but it raises a concern of mine.

 

Most of this thread has been about viewing porn. On of the concerns with the industry, along with the industry of prostitution, is that how much are the actors willing participants, and how much are they pressured to perform?

 

There have been several cases here in Australia (where prostitution is legal if licensed) with effective sex-slave rings; women brought into the country from overseas and effectively forced into prostitution. This thread is about pornography, not prostitution, but I see the two as being cousins. I have no doubt that there are many actors in porn movies that enjoy their work and do it voluntarily, but how many are there that are pressured into the work?

 

Does the porn manufacturing have sufficient controls in place to ensure it is all voluntary?

 

There will always be outsiders (as per the example I gave above with prostitution here in Australia) that break the law. How prevalent is it, though? Is it to a degree that it is something we need to be concerned about -- that viewing pornography is encouraging others to break the law to make that pornography?

[rustle]

Cadinot, the famous gay porn producer, shot a scene where a group of boys rape another boy in the middle of the night in a dorm. The scene was complete with the "victim" crying and acting very terrified as he was used by this group. This was part of a very popular and mainstream gay porn movie, and watched by hundreds of thousands. In fact, it is a very highly popular clip on many mainstream gay tube sites. 

 

Fraternity X, a very popular gay site, also features many scenes where the actors playing drunken frat boys basically rape and abuse the bottoms. 

 

So I'll ask the question. Is simulated rape wrong in porn? Can it even be called rape since all the actors are consenting? Do you think it encourages real rape? If a couple acts out a rape fantasy where they are both willing, does that make them sick or more likely to rape someone for real? 

 

My answer to all of these are no, but I'm curious to hear other responses. 

 

Agreed, without reservation.

 

Although I'm sure there are vids available depicting actual rape, most scenes are simulated by consenting adults, paid for their performance. I don't believe simulated rape scenes encourage rape any more than I expected moviegoers to emerge from the theater after watching Gandhi to do anything not already in their nature to do.

 

Some people would argue that permitting the safe exercise of a fantasy decreases the inclination to do it for real, whether it be by watching a porn vid or dressing up as Robin and asking Batman to have his way with you. When the lights go down, the shades are drawn, the door closed, it's none of anybody else's business. And if they're doing it out in the public eye, I reserve the right to enjoy the show.

 

Since I began writing this, Graeme posed his questions regarding how truly willing the models are in porn. We are a species capable of great good and great evil, in every facet of our existence. The only response I can offer is to cite specific conditions which would make the porn either uplifting or abhorrent to me. Those probably aren't universal. If the models are consenting, If the rape is simulated, if, if, if. Right or wrong, I assume certain things. Maybe I choose to believe what makes me comfortable while watching.

[Cia]

What, you mean people with functioning brains can differentiate between real and make-believe? *gasps* I never would have figured! After all, watching something--especially if you choose to watch it--means you think it's okay to act the same way in person, right? Like all those racing movies. Or the fight/war ones. Even a porn movie, hours and hours full of all sorts of 'deviant' behavior?

 

And, of course, everyone who's played a first person shooter game and lives in a house with guns is going to go on a shooting spree. Anyone who's ever been abused or lived with an abuser becomes one too. Everyone who grew up with a drug user becomes a drug user. After all, they don't have a mind that can understand the difference between what is right and wrong when given that information, you know, over the basic course of life and exposure to the wider world.

[W_L]

Cadinot, the famous gay porn producer, shot a scene where a group of boys rape another boy in the middle of the night in a dorm. The scene was complete with the "victim" crying and acting very terrified as he was used by this group. This was part of a popular and mainstream gay porn movie, and watched by hundreds of thousands. In fact, it is a highly watched clip on many mainstream gay tube sites. 

 

Fraternity X, a very popular gay site, also features many scenes where the actors playing drunken frat boys basically rape and abuse the bottoms. 

 

So I'll ask the question. Is simulated rape wrong in porn? Can it even be called rape since all the actors are consenting? Do you think it encourages real rape? If a couple acts out a rape fantasy where they are both willing, does that make them sick or more likely to rape someone for real? 

 

My answer to all of these are no, but I'm curious to hear other responses. 

 

Cadinot boys' dormatory is nice gay porn and I would not consider it to be anything worse than Nifty's Gay Authoritarian section, which some of us frequent

 

Is rape fantasy bad in porn? I don't think it is intentionally evil, but it is questionable issue. The level of comfort for this sub-genre of porn I leave to each person to decide.

 

Most rape in porn is simulated or fake to begin with, so there is consent. Fetishes like BDSM that can be outgrowths of rape fantasy porn is consensual by both the top/master and sub/slave. No matter how distorted things get, the participants are partners of their shared interest. For that, I doubt any of us have issues.

 

Consent is my line in the sand for porn, if there is no consent in the matter of live action or "real" porn, then it is evil, because you are forcing someone to act contrary to their desires. In any sexual, I believe fundamentally both or multiple participants have to want to be involved actively with full understanding and personal freedom.

[Zombie]

Cadinot, the famous gay porn producer, shot a scene where a group of boys rape another boy in the middle of the night in a dorm. The scene was complete with the "victim" crying and acting very terrified as he was used by this group. This was part of a popular and mainstream gay porn movie, and watched by hundreds of thousands. In fact, it is a highly watched clip on many mainstream gay tube sites. 

 

Fraternity X, a very popular gay site, also features many scenes where the actors playing drunken frat boys basically rape and abuse the bottoms. 

 

So I'll ask the question. Is simulated rape wrong in porn? Can it even be called rape since all the actors are consenting? Do you think it encourages real rape? If a couple acts out a rape fantasy where they are both willing, does that make them sick or more likely to rape someone for real? 

 

My answer to all of these are no, but I'm curious to hear other responses. 

 

I've not seen the Cadinot movie so I can't comment on it specifically, but I'll try to answer your question "Is simulated rape wrong in porn?"

 

Cia had it absolutely right when she said "context matters". The 1988 movie The Accused includes a simulated but very realistic, graphic, violent and obviously non-consensual gang-rape of Jodie Foster's character in a bar. It goes on for 5 minutes during which time several other male patrons stand by, watch the rape, even cheer it on.

 

It's an intelligent film. The viewer is forced to watch not only the rape but also the others who just stood by and watched. By implication it makes the viewer feel like those who are standing around and doing nothing except "enjoy the show". I think the director intended this - as an indictment of attitudes in society to rape.

 

That scene, in the context of the movie, is good - because in the context of the movie it is absolutely necessary to show the viewer the brutal reality of violent rape so that the viewer can then understand the movie's point about social attitudes to the violent abuse of women. That same scene taken out of the context of the movie, viewed in isolation and used by viewers to sexually stimulate themselves and connect their arousal specifically with those scenes of violent gang rape, would be evil.

 

Context is everything.

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

Edited March 19, 2014 by Zombie

[TetRefine]

What, you mean people with functioning brains can differentiate between real and make-believe? *gasps* I never would have figured! After all, watching something--especially if you choose to watch it--means you think it's okay to act the same way in person, right? Like all those racing movies. Or the fight/war ones. Even a porn movie, hours and hours full of all sorts of 'deviant' behavior?

 

And, of course, everyone who's played a first person shooter game and lives in a house with guns is going to go on a shooting spree. Anyone who's ever been abused or lived with an abuser becomes one too. Everyone who grew up with a drug user becomes a drug user. After all, they don't have a mind that can understand the difference between what is right and wrong when given that information, you know, over the basic course of life and exposure to the wider world.

 

Dear god Cia, you don't mean to say people actually have free will and responsibility for one's actions?!?!

[TetRefine]

That same scene taken out of the context of the movie, viewed in isolation and used by viewers to sexually stimulate themselves and connect their arousal specifically with those scenes of violent gang rape, would be evil.

 

Context is everything.

 

 

But again I ask the question, maybe just in a different form. Can something be inherently evil if it is not real? 

[W_L]

But again I ask the question, maybe just in a different form. Can something be inherently evil if it is not real?

Nope, unless they are planning to act upon it. Premeditation and mindset is an important factor in a person's mind.

 

Btw, my favorite scene of that infamous cadinot porn is the woodshop sequence

 

Do i want to violate a guy on a wooden bench? No but i liked the scene

Edited March 19, 2014 by W_L

[Zombie]

But again I ask the question, maybe just in a different form. Can something be inherently evil if it is not real? 

 

Interesting question. What is evil? Is evil inherent? We could have some fun with that one Sexual violence - mostly against women - is a real problem in society. I don't want to repeat myself so I'll just refer back to what I said in #58 and #66 It makes no difference that viewers are not watching real sexual abuse, rape or murder - which would be illegal anyway - and Cia has already accepted this point.