Destiny - A Novel By Ac Benus

[J.HunterDunn]

I was not offended in the least and appreciate you starting the discussion. I in turn hope I didn't give the impression that I was attacking you.

 

I have not doubt that the sheriff thinks he is appying the rules correctly. A law sets a certain age, Lincoln has that age, so he violates the law. A simple reasoning.

Ultimately it will be the judge or court, that has to decide whether in this particular case that law should be upheld. You correctly state, that that law exists to protect young people from sexual predators. The task of a judge is to see whether a 15 year old boy, who has more sexual experience than many of his peers, who acts mature with regard to his illness, etc. needs protection from a boy just a few years his senior, with whom he willingly has a relationship, that also happens to be sexual.

I can see a judge rule in favour of Linc, even if a law sets the age on 18 years.

 

Linc and Jack obvously thought it was OK to go against the law. If Christie wouldn't have walked in on them no one would be the wiser, although the law would have been broken.

 

As to the fact that laws are gender neutral, that is the way it is supposed to be. It is also supposed to be race neutral. The first sieve to bring people to justice however are people like the sheriff, often lead by prejudice. As so often theory and practice differ, unfortunately.

 

btw. I'm out of likes at the moment .

[Puppilull]

I didn't feel attacked. It's hard for me to discuss matters like these in a foreign language...

 

If we look at Linc and Jack, I agree with you that reason points to the judge using his/her sound judgment and not convict Linc. However, just because someone agrees to a certain action, it doesn't mean it's ok. If someone at 18 convinced a person at 12-13 that having sex was a good idea and they agreed, I wouldn't necessarily feel the same way. A child that young doesn't know what they are agreeing to. So, even if it went undiscovered and both parties agreed, it would in my opinion still be wrong.

 

But just to be clear: I don't see any problems with the love between Jack and Linc and I hope the situation is resolved quickly.

[Defiance19]

This discussion reminds me of Woody Allen and his marriage to his adopted daughter 23 years his junior. The affair allegedly started while he was still married. At the time public opinion seemed to drive the opinions of the law makers. Talk about outrage. All the same questions here, were raised. Is he a pedophile, well, he has to be! She couldn't possibly love him? But she did. Not to mention his wife. Even now before any of his movies are released, it is preceded by weeks of regurgitated stories. We are bound never to forget. Incidentally, they are still married.

 

So the questions Puppilull raised still remain. Who decides when it's ok to break the law? Who determines that a child will know the difference and make a choice to be in a relationship like this. Is it case by case, or do we follow always the letter of the law to protect the parties involved. When they stay together to we claim victory for fighting against, or if things end up poorly do we blame the system for not upholding the law in the first place.  It is a slippery slope, and one we're not likely to find sure footing on for a while. 

 

In Jack and Linc's case, I hope the judge is swayed in their favor. In real life though, the State automatically seeks to protect 'Jack', even with consent from parents and both boys I think it would be a difficult battle for them to win. 

This was good food for thought.... 

[Mikiesboy]

Ok I'm gonna open my mouth ... as much as I like the story I can tell you 15 year olds should not be having sex in the real world. As mature as maybe you think they are, it shouldn't happen. Cuz they don't know what they don't know.

 

Maybe I'm not understanding something. But I know what adults can do to kids.

[AC Benus]

I'm afraid that what you experiencing is a cultural gap (the same as mine, by the way). The sheriff it there to uphold the law, but the display of power that goes along with it, is quite unnecessary. Linc is not armed and doesn't resist at all. Why then the handcuffs and the shoving around ? Isn't a person not guilty untill proven otherwise ? Cannot a suspect be treated with respect ? AC already mentioned it in his reaction to your review, that there seems to be a mindset in the police force of good guy-bad guys, which is supposed to be an extenuation of such behaviour. We have in recent years all seen where that leads to.

Sometimes it's very difficult to discuss fiction, fictional characters and fictitious situations because reality intrudes in ways that seem cruder than any book imaginable. In recent days, the mindset that I mentioned of law enforcement officers in the U.S. has provided some very brutal realities for us.

 

First I think of the 14-year-old boy who was treated like a criminal for bringing a clock to school to show his science teacher only three days ago. Civil rights attorneys will have a field day, and the Irving Texas police agency will be paying the lad big money in compensation, no doubt, but the child was handcuffed after a 90-minute interrogation where no parent or attorney was allowed to be present and then the 'law' released a demeaning and willfully inaccurate statement that the boy did something in the first place to 'deserve' this harassment. They created a lie that he intended to make a 'hoax bomb,' meaning, that the boy intended to present his clock as a bomb. The truth is, he always told everyone exactly what it is – a clock. The police did not like that answer.

 

Here is a picture of the maltreated boy in handcuffs at the police station.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=14+year+old+boy+clock&safe=off&biw=1280&bih=738&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIi7u0yPGDyAIVgTuICh2RnAxW&dpr=1#imgrc=ZAaYbW1TtDkkAM%3A

 

I don't think I have portrayed the fictitious arrest of Lincoln Oliver in a hyperbolic way; sad, but true.

Edited September 19, 2015 by AC Benus

[AC Benus]

Outrage is fed, mostly by narrow minded and self-righteous people, helped by the media, who are less and less aware of their original function of gathering news, but are more and more led by sensationalism.

VERY eloquently stated, my friend. Bravo!

[AC Benus]

Ok I'm gonna open my mouth ... as much as I like the story I can tell you 15 year olds should not be having sex in the real world. As mature as maybe you think they are, it shouldn't happen. Cuz they don't know what they don't know.

 

Maybe I'm not understanding something. But I know what adults can do to kids.

That's true about adults and kids, but Jack and Linc are both kids, and it seems unrealistic to me not to expect kids in love to want to express it to one another.

 

But I get what you're saying. At one point in the early stages of the book I thought about bringing up the clients who used Jack and Linc in LA as a sort of 'but what about them - they're the bad ones' defense, but I dropped it in favor of a more direct resolution. Which you all will be seeing in a couple of chapters from now. 

 

Thanks for the comment. You are better equipped than most of us to weigh in on the subject. I appreciate your involvement.  

[AC Benus]

So, even if it went undiscovered and both parties agreed, it would in my opinion still be wrong.

 

But just to be clear: I don't see any problems with the love between Jack and Linc and I hope the situation is resolved quickly.

An opinion is an opinion, and I respect that - However - lol

 

Kids are kids. It seems silly to me to talk about 'wrong and right' in the case of Linc and Jack. Perhaps my entire reason for developing their relationship in the first place was to make one seek out the specifics of a connection before deciding if it is 'right or wrong,' or even if we have the moral fortitude to think we can judge them. After all, is that not what Hamish's mother chided him for doing at Thanksgiving dinner?  

 

I doubt that absolute and abstracts are really of much use, thus I have tried to create a 'specific' that makes the reader question their own absolute assumptions and support of abstract laws.

 

And for an LGBT person (especially Gay men, who have borne the brunt of legal terrorism for 150 years) there is no way to look at the 'law' as a just resort for goodness. I am just being honest in the way I feel about it, and I would beg others to put themselves in our shoes before assuming a neutral standing exists in the law for same-sex loving individuals. 

Edited September 23, 2015 by AC Benus

[J.HunterDunn]

I doubt that absolute and abstracts are really of much use, thus I have tried to create a 'specific' that makes the reader question their own absolute assumptions and support of abstract laws.

 

What I learned when doing some research today was, that there are many European countries that have special rules in case the age difference between the two persons is not too big. Canada seems to have that as well. So, abstract laws can have meaning for the situation of Jack and Linc. Some legislators try to soften the rules just for these kind of cases.

[AC Benus]

An opinion is an opinion, and I respect that - However - lol

 

Kids are kids. It seems silly to me to talk about 'wrong and right' in the case of Linc and Jack. Perhaps my entire reason for developing their relationship in the first place was to make one seek out the specifics of a connection before deciding if it is 'right or wrong,' or even if we have the moral fortitude to think we can judge them. After all, is that not what Hamish's mother chided him for doing at Thanksgiving dinner?  

 

I doubt that absolute and abstracts are really of much use, thus I have tried to create a 'specific' that makes the reader question their own absolute assumptions and support of abstract laws.

 

And for a LGBT person (especially Gay men, who have borne the brunt of legal terrorism for 150 years) there is no way to look at the 'law' as a just resort for goodness. I am just being honest in the way I feel about it, and I would beg others to put themselves in our shoes before assuming a neutral standing exists in the law for same-sex loving individuals. 

Anyway, in case I've overstated it...the legal problems that Lincoln faces in the book are not central to what the boys really have to achieve to meet their goals. Although a pain in the ass, Linc is doing it to try and reach out and help others in similar circumstances.

 

Please stay tuned...

[AC Benus]

In chapter 14, Shame, Lincoln's arrest is a very stressful moment. In his mind he makes allusion to the arrest of Jesus as reported in the bible. Here is the section:

 

That is comforting to hear him say. It gives me some strength to face the coming trials ahead of me. It's as if Jack is my own gym boy with Jesus at the Garden of Gethsemane. As I am being compelled to turn around again and face the glass of the distant double doors, I catch Jackson's eyes.

 

"Don't worry, bro!" He assures me. "I know what to do, and you can count on me."

 

For those of you wondering who the gym boy is, here's the note I wrote about it but decided not to post with the chapter itself. By the way, please seek out Mr. Roscoe's book, for it's an amazing read.

 

 

Gym boy with Jesus at the Garden of Gethsemane: Mark 14:51 – In the chaos of the arrest, Jesus' disciples fled and abandoned him, but apparently there was one unnamed companion, who wearing only a linen hand towel, defended him and stayed behind. He was the only one who did not run, but tried to protect Jesus. The arresting party made fun of the lad, eventually grabbing his towel, calling him names, and driving him off.          

The young man is referred to in the original Greek as a gymnos, which translates perfectly into English as 'gym boy'. As for his makeshift attire, a sindon – which in Latin-use means a kitchen towel exclusively – is all that was to hand when he and Jesus were so rudely interrupted. See: Jesus and the Shamanistic Tradition of Same-Sex Love by Will Roscoe, 2004 San Francisco.      

Edited September 22, 2015 by AC Benus

[Timothy M.]

Poor Linc, I keep thinking of him stuck in a jail, worrying about Jack...

 

Please let us know what happens next !

[AC Benus]

Poor Linc, I keep thinking of him stuck in a jail, worrying about Jack...

 

Please let us know what happens next !

Awww. Next chapter is coming in a few hours.

[Timothy M.]

When I first read chapter 16, I'd forgotten about the conversation back in ch. 5:

 

"How did you get a driver's license with your real name on it?"

"Oh, it wasn't hard. I used my real name, but got a fake birth certificate to show I was eighteen at the time I applied in L.A."

"So that makes you twenty now?"

 

If Linc is still only seventeen, it means he ran away from home, when he was fifteen, and lived in LA for two years or so. I'm guessing we're approaching the third anniversary of him running away and also his 18^th birthday.

 

Anyway, before ch. 16 I simply assumed he was already eighteen, like everyone else, and I'm guessing he doesn't have a passport (why would he?) or any other kind of legitimation, other than the fake driver's licence. So Jackson had to get a copy of the original birth certificate. It was such a clever ploy - and Lincoln gave them every chance to work it out themselves and do the right thing:

 

"I understand why it's got you down, but you know as well as I do that the 'child molesting' charge is pure bullshit."

I lean back and cross my legs again. "I know it is, but I want to be brave for both Jack, and for all the other Gay kids who face this same sort of crap everyday in this country."

Jackson becomes slightly amused. "Oh yeah? And how do you propose doing that?"

"How? By letting myself be victimized."

"What are you suggesting..?"

"Just wait and see – if they do play their card, then and only then will I play mine. But, I will need your help."

"Anything; you know you only need to ask."

"That's a big relief. Ok, so I will get an e-mail together with instructions on what you'll need to get and do for me if they act the fool and don’t do their homework."

 

if they do play their card, then and only then will I play mine

so awesome to go back to this conversation in ch. 12, once we know what it's all about.

 

And the title of the chapter is so clever: Humiliation. Yes Linc was humiliated in the jail, but the people causing it to happen were humiliated in public. However, I still want that guard to be punished.

 

[J.HunterDunn]

Very clever. Thanks Tim for pointing this out.

Any thoughts on the reason he didn't share his intentions with Jack, for all this must have been stressful for him.

[AC Benus]

Very clever. Thanks Tim for pointing this out.

Any thoughts on the reason he didn't share his intentions with Jack, for all this must have been stressful for him.

He did share his plans with Jack, at least it's reported that he did even if we do not see the scene unfolding before us. 

[AC Benus]

Tim, to your point on age, I will also point you back to Dignity where Lincoln tells Jack he ran away at 15, and had been in L.A. for two years. I know it's slight, but the info setting up the 'age thing' as a little nebulous was also there in the first book. Simple math might have put the notion that Linc is still 17 in the reader's mind, even though it was not commented upon.    

[AC Benus]

...thank you all for the brilliant reviews on chapter 16, but cannot answer them right now. Been dealing with a lot of pain, mostly in the head (migraines), so please know i will get to the reviews when I can. Thanks again. 

[Timothy M.]

...thank you all for the brilliant reviews on chapter 16, but cannot answer them right now. Been dealing with a lot of pain, mostly in the head (migraines), so please know i will get to the reviews when I can. Thanks again. 

 

take care, AC. Get lots of rest and water and TLC from your man. Hope you feel better soon.

[J.HunterDunn]

take care, AC. Get lots of rest and water and TLC from your man. Hope you feel better soon.

 

First of all I join Tim wishing you a speedy recovery.

 

Secondly here's an observation for when you feel better again.

 

Of course I'm not giving the age thing a rest.

With the information given Linc could well be still 17, but he could also already be 18.

It depends on the date of his birthday and the fact that when someone tells you that an event took place two years ago it hardly ever means two years to the day.

I'm very pleased that he turned out to be 17, for now we can concentrate on what Hamish will do without having to worry about a court case in Ohio.

 

Before being fully satisfied, though (and of course for being embarrased I walked into the trap with open eyes  ) here's a quote from chapter 2:

 

"Hamish grimaces, puts his hands down and strides right up to my face. "So, what - you two a couple, or something?"

I say as plainly as I can, "Yes. We are."

I'm distracted from Hamish's glare by a dismissive squeal coming from behind me. "But dude! How old are you?!"

Glancing at Jack's sister, I tell her, "I'm eighteen." "

 

Why the lie about his age to Christie. There was no need to at that time.

[Timothy M.]

Before being fully satisfied, though (and of course for being embarrased I walked into the trap with open eyes  ) here's a quote from chapter 2:

 

"Hamish grimaces, puts his hands down and strides right up to my face. "So, what - you two a couple, or something?"

I say as plainly as I can, "Yes. We are."

I'm distracted from Hamish's glare by a dismissive squeal coming from behind me. "But dude! How old are you?!"

Glancing at Jack's sister, I tell her, "I'm eighteen."

 

Why the lie about his age to Christie. There was no need to at that time.

 

I'm not sure what AC's reason is (apart from setting Christie, Hamish and us up, lol), but in my mind Lincoln wants to be 'of age' in that situation for two reasons: apart from Jack he probably hasn't told anyone, including Mrs Shaw, his real age for fear they'll want to contact his parents if he's a minor. And making a fake birth certificate is probably a felony, and admitting he is seventeen might bring up the question why and how he has a driver's licence. You'll note Linc doesn't claim being twenty (the age on his ID), but something probably very close to the truth (I'm guessing he's closer to his 18^th than 17^th birthday).

The other reason might be that he does not feel like a kid, and claiming he is eighteen will make Jack's siblings see him as more of an equal to them. Of course, Linc has no idea they'll (pretend to) think of him as a pervert or a man seducing a kid - which he wouldn't be even if he's just eighteen and Jack is not quite sixteen yet. Or at least that's how I see it.

[AC Benus]

I'm not sure what AC's reason is (apart from setting Christie, Hamish and us up, lol), but in my mind Lincoln wants to be 'of age' in that situation for two reasons: apart from Jack he probably hasn't told anyone, including Mrs Shaw, his real age for fear they'll want to contact his parents if he's a minor. And making a fake birth certificate is probably a felony, and admitting he is seventeen might bring up the question why and how he has a driver's licence. You'll note Linc doesn't claim being twenty (the age on his ID), but something probably very close to the truth (I'm guessing he's closer to his 18^th than 17^th birthday).

The other reason might be that he does not feel like a kid, and claiming he is eighteen will make Jack's siblings see him as more of an equal to them. Of course, Linc has no idea they'll (pretend to) think of him as a pervert or a man seducing a kid - which he wouldn't be even if he's just eighteen and Jack is not quite sixteen yet. Or at least that's how I see it.

One, the fact that he probably thinks of his real age as a liability makes his answer a case-by-case study of what to answer. I'm sure he's even rather evasive with Jack in the first book, but then again, so is Jack. If you'll remember, during the carousel scene, Linc asks, and Jack lies to him, saying he is 17. It's too risky to tell Linc - his boyfriend already - his real age, so he tells him he is 17.

 

Now, with why Linc decided '18' was the appropriate response for Christine and Hamish, I think Tim says it very well that Linc could not have imagined they'd latch onto the age difference between he and Jack as something 'dirty.' But they did. Also, I would beg you remember being that age. Youth is often a handicap in the minds of the young, so by being 'of age' Lincoln is probably bolstering his claim to be a part of the Shaw family. In other words, that he's old enough to be Jack's caregiver and support system. 

 

As for why he did not say 17 to Jack's sibs, I don't even think it crossed his mind. It was either the fake 20 of his clients, or the fake 18 he used with his friends and colleagues. 

[AC Benus]

First of all I join Tim wishing you a speedy recovery.

 

Secondly here's an observation for when you feel better again.

 

Of course I'm not giving the age thing a rest.

With the information given Linc could well be still 17, but he could also already be 18.

It depends on the date of his birthday and the fact that when someone tells you that an event took place two years ago it hardly ever means two years to the day.

I'm very pleased that he turned out to be 17, for now we can concentrate on what Hamish will do without having to worry about a court case in Ohio.

 

Before being fully satisfied, though (and of course for being embarrased I walked into the trap with open eyes  ) here's a quote from chapter 2:

 

"Hamish grimaces, puts his hands down and strides right up to my face. "So, what - you two a couple, or something?"

I say as plainly as I can, "Yes. We are."

I'm distracted from Hamish's glare by a dismissive squeal coming from behind me. "But dude! How old are you?!"

Glancing at Jack's sister, I tell her, "I'm eighteen." "

 

Why the lie about his age to Christie. There was no need to at that time.

I really like that you sussed out the fact that Lincoln Oliver's birthday is not far away. However, for right now, Linc is still a minor. He's seventeen...

Edited September 28, 2015 by AC Benus

[AC Benus]

Ah ha! Peter wins!!! I was wondering who would be the first to mention Linc's new predicament...

 

It seems now that he's outed as 17, he's in the same boat as Jack when it comes to getting permission and a court order to marry.  

[J.HunterDunn]

Ever vigilant.

But with only three chapters to go I'm sure there will be a gracious solution for that problem.