Posting unfinished stories

[steph]

There appear to be lots of completed multi-chapter stories on GA (I have three here!) that could be a basis for those, like myself, who want to take part in discussions but read only complete stories. For example, I made a contribution to the discussion on 'Mike and Winston' by Corvus.

I'll have to check out one of your non-scary stories. Everyone has praised Tapping, but I'm apprehensive about reading a scary story. I have a vivid imagination. I've found that it's hard to generate discussion (well, maybe I should call it banter?) when the story is completed. People mainly want to discuss the ending, not necessarily the individual chapters.

 

I think we need to remember that a serial story can be complete before the first chapter is posted. "serial" only refers to how the story is posted, not how it is written. Look at dkstories's Rich Boy 2. He's finished writing it, but the bugger makes us wait a week for each chapter.

 

Then there is the question as to at what point a story is good enough to release in public. Personally, until I've completed a story I can't be sure it's going to be good enough to be offered to the general public readership. Certainly it would be arrogant of me to automatically assume that it will be good enough when I've only got a handful of chapters completed.

I think the differences evolve from personality styles/working styles/learning styles whatever you want to call it. Some people have a better global view and can generate excellent chapters without writing the entire story first. A good example is Duncan Rider's Everybody's Wounded. It's a phenomenal story (IMHO), and based on his comments, he prefers to post as he writes. It's not only about individual preferences but also about how the writer processes information.

Edited June 13, 2008 by steph291

[kitten]

I apologise if any of my posts in this thread have upset or offended anyone. That was certainly not my intention. It is in my nature to question things that other people seem to just accept. This is not because I believe they are wrong but because I want to find out why they might be right.

 

I apologise if my posts in this thread have been unclear or confused. If my understanding on the subject had been clear and unconfused then I wouldn't have felt the urge to start this discussion. This is because, being esssentially lazy, I wouldn't have bothered to go to the trouble of starting a discussion on something if I already believed I was obviously right.

 

I apologise if the things I wrote were not things I intended to say. That was careless of me. For example, In writing about expecting more from hosted or shared-hosted authors I didn't mean that they shouldn't serialise. This may have been what I actually wrote but it isn't what I intended. It was written in response to a comment to the effect that getting feedback by posting before completion is a way for 'budding' authors to improve. What intended to say was that anyone of hosted or shared-hosted standard should not need to post before completion for that particular reason. However, they may have other perfectly valid reasons.

 

I apologise for the looseness with which I used the word 'story' in places where I should have used the word 'novel'. There are, of course, diffferent types of stories, novels, novellas, short stories, serials, etc. Each has a different style and different purpose and it was sloppy of me to use the word story so loosely. One type of story is neither superior nor inferior to another type, though we may all have personal preferences.

 

It seems to me that the difference between a serial and a novel is analogous to the difference between a TV series and a movie. One format is not inferior to the other, they are just different and intended for different things. If a movie was written in the same way that a TV series is written then it would probably not be such a good movie.

 

Therefore, what I should have said, and what I still believe, is that if a work intended to be a novel is written like a serial then it will likely be an inferior novel. Of course, this does not mean that a novel will suffer in quality if it written and completed as a novel and then serialised when posted. On the other hand, if someone writes a serial, it does not automatically become a novel when the last chapter is posted, just as a TV series does not become a long movie just because you watch the whole series on DVD all at one sitting. Thus, for example, there is no way that a serial with 140+ chapters could be considered to be a 'novel in progress'.

 

It seems to me that most people on GA prefer to read and/or write serials rather than novels. I write this as an observation and not as a criticism.

 

Finally, I apologise for getting side-tracked onto the subject of feedback for budding authors and confusing the two different but related issues in my comments. However, now that the topic has been raised, there are some points that I'd like to make, though I'm not sure if it should be in a different thread?

 

I think someone mentioned something to the effect that we are all still learning so are still in a sense 'budding' authors. To me, this is like saying that research scientists are still learning new things therefore they are still the same as a high school science students. Of course even experienced authors are still learning, but the things they learn and the way that they learn them are different than the they are for beginners.

 

Everyone to some extent needs encouragement and perhaps budding writers need more than established authors. However, having read some comments about budding authors' new chapters I feel that encouragement can easily become ego-stroking and that such ego-stroking can actually be harmful to the budding writer.

 

For me, encouragement means praising what deserves to be praised and perhaps then mentioning one or two pionts that could be improved. Similarly, if the comment to a chapter by a 'budding' writer is a single word hyperbole such as 'Awesome', 'Fantastic', or 'Amazing' then it becomes ego-stroking of a potentially dangerous kind. Obviously, those exaples are extreme cases and so easy to classify as either obvious encouragement or obvious ego-stroking. Intermediate types of comments may combine aspects of both.

 

Suppose that someone posted a comment to a budding writer's new chapter that said simply 'Awesome chapter - keep up the good work'. Was it really awesome? If so then the writer shouldn't be considered as 'budding' and should be out there getting published. If it wasn't really awesome then it's just ego-stroking.

 

If the recipient of the ego-stroking doesn't believe that his chapter really was awesome then how can he trust any other comments form the commentator in future, and how can he learn to improve? If he does believe his writing is really awesome then what is there to improve and why should he try to improve? That is why I think that ego-stroking a budding author can be dangerous even if it makes him very happy.

 

So, obviously this is just my opinion... If people want to help and encourage writers they should point out the particular aspects which are good and maybe (but not necessarily) point out where the chapter was weak.

 

Kit

[Duncan Ryder]

I apologise if any of my posts in this thread have upset or offended anyone. That was certainly not my intention.

...

 

I apologise if the things I wrote were not things I intended to say. That was careless of me. For example, In writing about expecting more from hosted or shared-hosted authors I didn't mean that they shouldn't serialise. This may have been what I actually wrote but it isn't what I intended. It was written in response to a comment to the effect that getting feedback by posting before completion is a way for 'budding' authors to improve. What intended to say was that anyone of hosted or shared-hosted standard should not need to post before completion for that particular reason. However, they may have other perfectly valid reasons.

 

 

Ok then. maybe I'm a little neurotic and over sensitive about theses things (ya think???)

 

I just want to say something about feedback from readers during the process of writing and why it's important to me anyway. I'm not talking about the "awesome job" type of feedback. I mean, that's all nice, and I appreciate people taking the time, but it's not about ego stroking. It's about learning. As it happens I am a professional writer... From a sheer craft perspective I know I can write, though as someone said we are all learning and growing all the time. (And I start to explore gay themes I have no interest in selling these particular stories -- not that there's a huge market for them anyway...)

 

I'm talking about the people who take the time to email about what the story means to them. People write for all different kinds of reasons. I write very intense stories that are difficult for me to tell not from a craft perspective but from an emotional perspective. People respond emotionally, and for some it unlocks some powerful stuff for them, and they take the time to email me about it. It's an amazing learning experience for me to hear how a story can ado that, how words become real, and affect readers at their cores. And listening to htem helps me write better stories, I think, by helping me to understand intensity in new ways. So there is an extent to which the feedback does indeed influence the story...not what's going to happen, or why, but from perspective, the way I might get an added dimension on a character or even take a second look at a character see who resonates powerfully in a way I didn't anticipate. So then I look more closely to figure out why...

[Tiff]

I think someone mentioned something to the effect that we are all still learning so are still in a sense 'budding' authors. To me, this is like saying that research scientists are still learning new things therefore they are still the same as a high school science students. Of course even experienced authors are still learning, but the things they learn and the way that they learn them are different than the they are for beginners.

 

Everyone to some extent needs encouragement and perhaps budding writers need more than established authors. However, having read some comments about budding authors' new chapters I feel that encouragement can easily become ego-stroking and that such ego-stroking can actually be harmful to the budding writer.

 

For me, encouragement means praising what deserves to be praised and perhaps then mentioning one or two pionts that could be improved. Similarly, if the comment to a chapter by a 'budding' writer is a single word hyperbole such as 'Awesome', 'Fantastic', or 'Amazing' then it becomes ego-stroking of a potentially dangerous kind. Obviously, those exaples are extreme cases and so easy to classify as either obvious encouragement or obvious ego-stroking. Intermediate types of comments may combine aspects of both.

 

Suppose that someone posted a comment to a budding writer's new chapter that said simply 'Awesome chapter - keep up the good work'. Was it really awesome? If so then the writer shouldn't be considered as 'budding' and should be out there getting published. If it wasn't really awesome then it's just ego-stroking.

 

If the recipient of the ego-stroking doesn't believe that his chapter really was awesome then how can he trust any other comments form the commentator in future, and how can he learn to improve? If he does believe his writing is really awesome then what is there to improve and why should he try to improve? That is why I think that ego-stroking a budding author can be dangerous even if it makes him very happy.

 

So, obviously this is just my opinion... If people want to help and encourage writers they should point out the particular aspects which are good and maybe (but not necessarily) point out where the chapter was weak.

 

Kit

It's true that all authors are continously learning. To me, writing is a constant learning curve and no one has mastered the art of it, although they may think so. Sometimes the supposedly "experienced" and "best" authors on this site get promoted due to luck, due to getting noticed right away, and so forth. However, I have read works by other authors, who might be considered "budding" but are actually better than the more experienced ones. To me, it's not about quantity. If someone had four novels and a budding author had one completed one and was beginning a new series, the author with four completed novels isn't more experienced. Basically they were able to churn out more words at a faster rate, thus giving the illusion that they're more experienced and all that superiority crap. I don't buy into that at all and it kind of bugs me. On the other hand you're correct; experienced authors have more of the technical stuff down, such as grammar, plot, etc, which makes them seem more experienced. But that could easily be fixed by an editor, once the author is pointed in the right direction. I've learned a thing or two from my beta-reader.

 

As for ego-stroking, I don't necessarily think people intend to ego-stroke. I truly believe that some readers aren't the type to go on and on in a review. They might not know how to express themselves when it comes to the story, but they still try to offer encouragement in their own way. It's still getting feedback, and the reader did take the time out of their day to drop that small little line because perhaps in their honest opinion, the story was "Awesome!" Not everyone has a way with words and readers get lazy. With so many stories out there, it becomes difficult to review every single one. However, I do understand what you're saying. Feedback should have some points listed, good or bad about the story. I tend to give long reviews because I like to ramble forever, especially if I really loved something. But that's me. Most reviewers give a few brief lines, if even.

 

When it comes to helping newer authors, truly helping them, I think an editor or beta-reader could offer great encouragment. They are readers, but also they're willing to invest time in your work to make it better by stating their opinions, something we don't always get with readers. I have a great beta and he tells me when something is a load of crap and when something is really good, or a plot/dialogue could be better if I tweaked one little thing. That's helping a new author cultivate some better techniques and skills and gain some confidence with someone they trust.

 

Again, all this mumbo jumbo is my opinion and if I came off bitchy, I apologize in advance. Just woke up and didn't eat yet.

[David McLeod]

If the author needs a feedback to be able to write, he just show his incertainty about the value of his work .

 

Bob, (Your mind is too sharp to be "old Bob.")

 

I respectfully disagree with your disparagement of an author's need for feedback in order to write. I've been reading what we euphemistically call "alternative fiction" since 1986, when computer bulletin boards presaged the internet. I only found this site recently. It's the only one that hosts serious discussions of the craft as well as providing an opportunities for virgin authors to post their efforts and receive feedback from both experienced craftspersons and (all hail to them) people who are "readers only."

 

My first attempt was posted recently, and one of the first pieces of feedback I received has made a significant difference in how the second and subsequent chapter of that story, as well as other stories, are written. I don't need feedback in order to write, but I certainly appreciate it.

[Dolores Esteban]

I started rewriting a novel I completed in spring.

 

I wanted to edit it. I read the first chapter, the second, the third...God! I felt aghast.

 

Now I delete all the crap. Done that I do the fine tuning. Done that I will edit. Just a matter of weeks. Months, perhaps.

 

In previous years I posted chapter by chapter. Never again. Never.

 

 

 

[hh5]

I'm a bit open minded on stories. Of course, if there is a lot to digest before the story starts to take form in my mind. I skip the story as well as about leaving a review. I refuse to leave a comment on something I have not read at a leisurely pace.

 

Yes, I am a picky reader. Maybe I have to blame myself for being in a technical field or my horrible upbringing and subsequent issues in life. But still, I grow as a reader and slowly as a writer. I do hunt for good stories and if I gets hooked I leave a comment.

 

Sometimes its a simple few words. Other times, I just spill out so many questions or reflections on the story. Although, I commented. But wow its something when an author replies. My own curiosity is how much different is the author and what he writes. What I find out, it comes back to STNG Character Mark Twain paraphrased "Well to get to know me its pretty much in my writings"

 

The real reason that I say I am open minded is because I will read for the story that hits my fancy even if its from a budding writer.

I will work my way through to try to see what story is being conveyed by its writer.

Many of you may say why bother to go through all that trouble.

 

I met all kinds of people, here and there. I also tutored some kids or TA College Kids. I love to talk to people. If they have a story to tell me and of course, English is not their thing. I still encourage them to tell it. I don't care if its bad or poor. A story is still a story. Its how we young ones learn from our older ones. Gosh, I know my own poor English and its my first and only language. I get better at it, sometimes or I get worst. But I still try to make an effort to write a story.

 

Of course, If I keep to the motto "I will sell no wine before its time." (Orsen Welles) and a schedule is not an issue. I will try to improve my story.

 

If I notice that this story is from a budding writer and I like his story. I will try to make an effort to contact or write a review.

Sometimes by reading its style or it content. I could tell the temperament of its writer and write an according message of encouragement that's provided that their email address still works.

 

Sometimes I cry if it bounces. I could only imagine how many reviews that would not get to its author.

Sometimes I cry that the good story remains unfinished for many unknown reasons.