[TheZot] Yankee

[Rabble_Rouser]

Hey Dan,

 

Loved the story and I'm really looking forward to the sequel! When I read the chapter today the first words out of my mouth when I finished were WTF??? Once I had some time to reflect on it I think I really liked how you finished things off (once I knew there would be a companion piece) even though it left me with SO many questions. I liked that you couldn't have predicted that ending 5 chapters in. The ending while a little, I guess unsettling would be the best word, made me rethink many of my observations and assumptions (mostly wrong) that I made as I went along in the story.

 

Liked it, looking for more!

 

Steve

[knotme]

I do have a quibble with some details at the end of the story. When Rob's mom says he's gone "away" -- I wanted her to say either "he's gone to live with relatives," or "he's gone to a boarding school for troubled teens," or "he's in a mental hospital." Or for Justin to at least ask and not be told, or to realize later that he didn't ask.

"He went to visit some friends" could be lawyerly vagueness. Maybe Mrs. Green doesn't want anyone to track Rob down. Justin, of course, didn't pursue it. I hope that the "friends" are Rob's godfather Stephen and his husband Richard (Chap. 8), the gay couple that the Phillips family drove away years before. "Actually, he went to Martha's Vineyard" according to TZ. [i don't know how to quote two different sources in one message.] Hmm, that could be where they live.

Edited February 9, 2006 by oahu

[TheZot]

I hope that the "friends" are Rob's godfather Stephen and his husband Richard (Chap. 8), the gay couple that the Phillips family drove away years before. "Actually, he went to Martha's Vineyard" according to TZ. [i don't know how to quote two different sources in one message.] Hmm, that could be where they live.

They live in Manhattan, but yeah, that's where he's going. (It comes right out at the beginning of the first chapter, so I don't feel bad saying so) Stephen's family has a cottage in the Camp Ground in Oak Bluffs, which is where they end up after a chapter or so.

 

-Dan

[NaperVic]

Hey Dan, I finally read Yankee since you had completed it (I'm trying to restrict the number of in-process serials I read as it stresses me out too much).

 

I just wanted to let you know that I REALLY enjoyed your story and hope you write more. I can't say I was happy with the ending (I'm a sap for happy endings), but I do hold out hope with a sequel

 

Anyhow, thanks for sharing with us. You have a lot of talent!

 

Take Care®,

 

Vic

[TheZot]

Hey Vic.

 

Glad you enjoyed Yankee, despite (or, who knows, maybe because ) the not happy ending. And I definitely understand the waiting until a story's done to start thing. I am so glad I actually finished -- there are far too many good stories left half-done, and things gapped enough I was worried Yankee would be one of 'em.

 

It's actually a little weird to look back on the story now that it's finished, all the stuff I wished I'd done differently, and the places where it feels awkward. I'm happy with it, though, and prouder of it than I expected to be. It was definitely a learning experience, and the criticism I've gotten about the story (and I mean that in a good way) has made the stuff I've done since better.

 

And yeah, I am itching to rewrite it anyway, but I think I'll hold off and do new stuff instead.

 

-Dan

[Lucy Kemnitzer]

It's actually a little weird to look back on the story now that it's finished, all the stuff I wished I'd done differently, and the places where it feels awkward. I'm happy with it, though, and prouder of it than I expected to be. It was definitely a learning experience, and the criticism I've gotten about the story (and I mean that in a good way) has made the stuff I've done since better.

 

And yeah, I am itching to rewrite it anyway, but I think I'll hold off and do new stuff instead.

 

-Dan

 

When you write a serial and post it as it's written, that's what happens. I've seen a lot of serials change in character as they go and the writer has other ideas. Some stories lose their integrity as the writer decides they really want to write a different story (I'm too kind to name names here, but there's a writer I keep giving up on because he does that: the story starts out interesting and then weird crap keeps happening until there's really no story). Yankee does not lose its integrity, so, as my son says, you are The Win.

 

I've had trouble with the serial form: a fiddle player became a banjo player, and various identifying characteristics got mixed up a little and I had to do some emergency surgery. Not to mention I'm two months behind on it (doing other things, mostly, but also struggling with family illnesses, plural). But I think the form is really exciting and interesting, and the interactive aspect of it is revolutionary. I mean in unexpected ways, really.

[Lucy Kemnitzer]

Huh. I'd bet it's more the mainstreaming of being gay. It's not nearly so much a big deal, in a way not enough to actually warrant a genre as such -- the fact that the protagonist and his love interest are both guys isn't remarkable as such, and while it's necessary and drives the story, as the problems are partly unique, in a lot of ways they're not gay problems so much as just people problems or growing up problems. May just be the fact that the basic assumption is we're just people like everyone else. Or, y'know, maybe not. .

 

Well, looking at the history of gay coming of age stories, and going back before the internet serial, you can definitely see a mainstreaming tendency. You've got your old print stories, which are almost all tragic (even most of the purely stroke stories, honestly), and the tragedy is inherent in the gayness -- there's no chance in those old stories that a resolution can be other than despair, destruction, and diminishment. There are exceptions, but very few, and they seem in most cases to be self-consciously perverse. Then you get a long period when the stories are kind of bittersweet: where there's a resolution that's about a kind of guarded self-acceptance in the face of tremendous outside pressure, but the relationships hardly ever end up in happily ever after.

 

Then we get the early text files online -- mostly flat-out short stroke pieces -- and at the same time, the beginning of the print gay romantic comedy, which at first is kind of rooted in Stonewall giddiness and rollicking excesses. There's a growing sense that happy endings are possible and therefore desirable (I'm going to get back to the special case of stories like Yankee in a moment), and a real sense of joy in both physical pleasure and emotional satisfaction.

 

The serial develops somewhere along here. First they're just returning to a satisfactory fantasy, and piling on of sexual acts one after another, more and more participants, etc. Then they somehow develop story arc and plot, and growth and change for the characters, just like literature! And that's what it is (if you let go of the idea that literature is something that only happens in the past). It's a literature.

 

The "fantasy" gets more elaborate and rich: it's no longer "Protagonist gets off:" no longer even "protagonist finds true love:" it's "Protagonist finds true love, family, and community." It's mature enough to spin off variations. Which is where Yankee comes in. Justin is a modern gay coming of age story protagonist: Rob is an old-fashioned one. Justin doesn't have the communication skills to explain what all Rob could have -- what is right there in front of them, and what Justin accepts as normal. Rob's issues are less about being gay, as you've been saying, than they are about being afraid of life.

 

Yankee doesn't violate the concentions that are developing, it enriches them.

[knotme]

Some stories lose their integrity as the writer decides they really want to write a different story (I'm too kind to name names here, but there's a writer I keep giving up on because he does that: the story starts out interesting and then weird crap keeps happening until there's really no story).

Sometimes weird crap happens because there's no story. I wish I had a dollar for each time a protagonist suddenly, out of nowhere, ends up at death's doorstep in a hospital. Even better than a buck is a story strong enough to avoid this device.

[Dalmania]

Congrats Zot on this story. :king:

I must say I was still expecting a happily ever after ending. And initially stopped short when I got to the end yesterday and realized I was not going to get that.

Since then I see that the real ending showed thinking that was outside the box. Justin is not all in the right and we can better see how Bobby got himself so stuck. I doubt that I could have predicted either of these conclusions myself from what I understood from the earlier chapters. But it makes sense.

 

I look forward to a sequel if you do one. I hope you give us some more of other stories too.

Thanks for this one.

[Dio]

Well Dan you already know how I stand on this story... Just thought that contratumalations are in order!!~ First story under your belt~ I'll raise my glass and hope for many more!

 

hugz,

dio

[TheZot]

Well Dan you already know how I stand on this story...

Yeah, yeah, I know -- I promise, they'll drop the soap in the shower more in the next one, honest!

Just thought that contratumalations are in order!!~ First story under your belt~ I'll raise my glass and hope for many more!

More on the way. This "writing" thing is kinda fun...

 

-Dan

[boy on a string]

I read the story.

 

A really unusuall ending ...

 

The characters were very realistic, and I enjoyed the story ... but not the ending.

 

I look forward to the sequal.

 

I would give it and a 9.5 out of 10 ...

 

Thanks for writing it. you should get GA to host you.

 

Boy on a String

[TheZot]

I read the story.

 

A really unusuall ending ...

 

The characters were very realistic, and I enjoyed the story ... but not the ending.

I've got to admit -- I don't like the ending either. Given the character backgrounds and motivations it couldn't be any different, and it was the ending I was intending (sort of) from when I started writing Yankee, so it was absolutely the right thing, but... I still didn't like it. Couldn't do anything else, though, not and keep the story's integrity. Didn't make it suck any less, though.

 

Changing the ending wouldn't have worked, so I didn't. I briefly considered continuing on, but that didn't really work either. Where Yankee ends really is the end of this particular story, and I didn't want to fall into the "endless serial" trap so many other stories on the 'net have fallen into. When I decided to start posting stuff I'd written I knew I'd have to do it as a professional, and while I didn't necessarily have the resources available that I'd have if I was doing this for actual money (mainly in time to work on things -- Kitty did an excellent job as an editor, and I'll be forever grateful for what she's done) that didn't mean I was gonna get lazy if I could help it.

 

The ending itself does have some technical issues that I wish I'd have caught before I'd released it. The story stops, and is at a conclusion, but it doesn't quite end, at least not with definity. Or something like that. There are other problems in other places inside it that could use addressing if I revisit the story at some point. It's 80K words, and patched up it'd probably hit 130K. Who knows, maybe I should and see if any real YA publishers would be interested -- there's no sex in or anything, and if they can throw shelfloads of angsty suicidal teens battling flesh-eating zombies out, I should be fine. (Well, I may have to add in some zombies, but I can do that) But that's neither here nor there.

 

I look forward to the sequal.

 

Thanks for writing it. you should get GA to host you.

Heh. I already am, more or less. A member's page is just fine. Maybe if I have more stories then something else would be in order, but I'm cool with the way things are.

 

I think I'm going to put together some liner notes of sorts and toss 'em onto the blog. There's a part of me that's thinking that if the story needs explanation then it's a sign it's got some issues, but then it's my first try taking one of these to a conclusion so I'm OK with that.

 

-Dan

[TheZot]

Okay, I threw the liner notes onto my blog. They're at https://www.gayauthors.org/forums/blog/thez...?showentry=1478

[Lucy Kemnitzer]

The ending itself does have some technical issues that I wish I'd have caught before I'd released it. The story stops, and is at a conclusion, but it doesn't quite end, at least not with definity. Or something like that. There are other problems in other places inside it that could use addressing if I revisit the story at some point. It's 80K words, and patched up it'd probably hit 130K. Who knows, maybe I should and see if any real YA publishers would be interested -- there's no sex in or anything, and if they can throw shelfloads of angsty suicidal teens battling flesh-eating zombies out, I should be fine. (Well, I may have to add in some zombies, but I can do that) But that's neither here nor there.

-Dan

 

Actually, have you browsed the YA section at the bookstore lately? (At least the YA section of an independent bookstore in a reasonable-sized town,) Yankee is actually very similar to some books I've seen there. And 80K is a perfect length for YA. It used to be that webpublishing counted as prior publishing and editors would be skittish about producing a book from a manuscript that had been onlione, but at least some of them have sort of figured out that online and print publishing are quite different and online exposure actually only helps print sales.

 

Yankee would make a great YA book, I think. Do you have a really good bookstore -- or a good library -- where you live? The thing to do would be to browse the YA section and look for books like enough to this story, and notice who published them, and if possible who the editor is. Then you want to look up the publisher online and find out what kind of contect they want -- do they want just a query letter to start with, or the first three chapters and an outline, or the whole manuscript. And then -- submit it!

[EleCivil]

I liked this story a lot, nontraditional ending included. I'll be looking forward to the sequel.

[C James]

I liked this story a lot. One of my favorite ever, in fact.

 

I found the overwhelming majority of Justin's Aspie behavior very convincing. He does not handle the unexpected at all well, misses the obvious, and sometimes over-analyzes. That's spot-on, as is the fidgeting.

 

He's very in-tune with himself, and knows his limitations. That's unusual to that degree for an Aspie (or anyone) at that age, but by no means unlikely.

 

His ability to learn some things at freakish speed is not uncommon with Aspies, nor is some of the on-again off-again aspect of his social skills. In real life, it's more situational, and the story mostly rings very true in this regard IMHO.

 

Aspergers can be described in part as having the ability to sympathize, but lacking the ability to empathize. Justin, as we saw when Rob's dog died, can sympathize, but empathy is beyond hi, hence his trouble dealing with social situations, especially unexpected ones.

 

Justin's demand that anyone he dates be "out" makes perfect sense: he isn't able to keep secrets, and knows it. If he dated anyone who wasn't out, he would eventually slip, so this is the best way for him to handle it.

 

One thing I'd like to comment specifically on: the lack of detailed physical descriptions of the main characters, particularly Justin: I loved it!! The reason is that everyone has different tastes regarding what they consider "hot" appearance. So, I think it was left just vague enough, though with plenty of clues, that the reader can use their own preferred image.

 

As for the ending, I usually don't like unhappy endings, but this one IMHO worked great. All too many times I've read through 40 chapters of a story, then the characters finally get together, only to see one of them die in a fiery crash. Yankee definitely breaks a lot of molds, and this was one of them.

 

There are a few things I would have liked to see more of, such as the relationship with Dan, and Justin's home life (Two aspie parents? THAT would get interesting!)

 

I really liked this story, and am very much looking forward to the sequel, or whatever Dan might choose to write.

[Guest special guest]

Hi!

 

I just want to say that I enjoy this story a lot. It's good. I like it.

[Former Member]

I really enjoyed this. I liked the originallity of it all. How Justin and Rob didn't hook up in the end and I found Justin quite interesting as a protagonist. I can't wait for the sequel.

[icedfire]

Well done with the story, sir!

 

I've learned a bit about Asberger's in the last few years. Of all places, would it surprise you that it shows up quite often in tournament Scrabble? I can think of several people I've met since I've started playing who endure the condition...in a wide range of severities. There were times in this story where it felt like you were describing a friend of mine EXACTLY...and times at which it felt like I had no idea where you were coming from. Almost all of those were the situations where Justin let loose with wonderful wit...in my experience, the sense of humor suffers as much if not more awkwardness as personal interactions. Everyone is different, of course, and I'm certainly not one to say that you are right or wrong...you rounded out Justin's character quite well, and that's all I could ever hope for as a reader.

 

I'm not sure if you've addressed this before...I still can't navigate my way out of a wet paper bag in these forums...but do you know when the sequel may start being posted? I'm OCD enough that it wouldn't matter...once I see the story, I'll dive in no matter what...but who knows, maybe if I schedule it I can actually get some studying done for once.

 

Rob

[TheZot]

Heh, yeah, Justin was a bit wittier than perhaps would be normal for folks with Aspergers. He wasn't entirely out of the norm -- I know an awful lot of folks with some form of it or another (joys of being a professional computer geek. AS is, as you might expect, awfully common in my profession) and there are the occasional flashes of wit that come out, depending on circumstance and personal proclivities. Tends to only happen when folks are comfortable with the people they're around so the awkwardness goes away, more or less.

 

I tried to make sure most of Justin's wit was either half-awkward (like the my god, I'm a juggler! bit, which was arguably kinda insulting) or practiced (like the banter between Justin and Steph at the cast party, which they'd done before). Unfortunately I did lose hold of some of the important characterization bits at times. Not too badly, but there's always that itch to fix one more thing.

 

I'm not sure when the sequel will be out. I've been puttering with it, but unfortunately other things have been getting in the way.

 

I really oughta set up an RSS feed or something for this stuf...

[Conner]

Congrats on being made a full fledged hosted author! Good on ya! Geez, to think I knew you when you were a nobody

 

By the way, you will have to return your NOBODY membership card - that is clearly stipulated in the membership agreement. I won't have people with an image, newly acquired or not, to retain their membership. The NOBODY club is for the imageless (I stole that word from EleCivil )

 

I had a look at your web page here at GA. WOW! You had better get to work

 

Hugs,

Conner

[TheZot]

I had a look at your web page here at GA. WOW! You had better get to work

Heh. And that's just the fully plotted and partially written stuff. (We won't talk about the stuff in the comments, I'd be busy for the rest of the decade...)

[TheZot]

Okay, I've finally gotten the last prod I need, and the final two chapters of Yankee are going to get rewritten and then released. With the understanding that the shape of the story's not going to change, this is everyone's chance to weigh in on what in those last two chapters was problematic. Won't guarantee that I'll fix whatever it is you've noticed, but the odds are a lot better if I actually know what you think actually is a problem...

 

-Dan

[Cookie]

Hi, I read Yankee, And O*M*G I loved it!!

I love Justin, he is a very unique character.

And now am counting the days till the sequel, I want to know more... Will Rob get back, will he come 'out',will he and Justin get together,will Trevor get a girlfriend,will there be a new hot guy getting involved in the story!!HAAAAAAAAAA some many questions!!!!

More.*~* More..I need More....Pretty please *blows kisses*

Edited February 7, 2007 by Cookie