Poor Man's Son

[Hermetically Sealed]

Confidence is not a adequate substitute for experience or being savvy.

 

I don't care how "mature for their age" someone believes themselves to be, or that others claim they are, no thirteen year old is so mature that they are always right. No thirteen year old is that adept at schooling their parents and every other adult in the ways of the life, love and relationships. I mean seriously, what thirteen year old in the world is mature enough to genuinely know what is best for not just themselves, but their parents as well in every single instance? The fact that he is always allowed to dictate the terms of any interaction with adults is just utterly beyond me.

 

 

ETA

 

I think something else to consider is that Will's childhood has been shaped by power struggles between his parents.

Yeah, but let's not forget that Will himself actively encouraged that situation. He knew full well what he was doing by running to daddy to get what he wanted. This is something all three are culpable in, and the fact that Will knew exactly what his behavior was doing just further points out his selfishness. Teenager or not, knowingly pitting your parents against each other is not something nice people do.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Hermetically Sealed

[centexhairysub]

Well, I really liked half of this chapter... LOL...

 

I really like the part with Will. I do think that Will needs to have a little more parental control but unlike some others, I don't think he came across as out of control in this chapter as others did. As Mark stated, all 14 y/o believe the world revolves around them. I actually thought Will handled the confrontation with Jeanine pretty well overall, and I liked that he realized in the end that she did love him and he her. I agree with methodwriter that it is great that John doesn't feel the need to declare himself to be gay, he can just go with the flow... And you just knew that Claire and Jack were going to be okay with it.

 

I can't say that I was as fond of the Gathan section although the ending with him going off with the Hendrickson girl worked for me. I just think that he and Zach are just way to combustible and Gathan should realize this and stay as far away from Zach sexually as he can.

 

I can't wait for the trip to Paris... I just know something good is going to happen there... I wonder if Will's mistake, where he will learn he isn't perfect, will happen there???

[rjo]

I can't remember who it was but as far back as Bloodlines it was pointed out that things would get harder as Brad's sons grew up. I agree Brad's household has not always been united as JP's was. JP and Isidore were much more united on the some page. The one problem is that Brad is so dominate person, he uses all the air in the room. Long ago I learned that you must judge people from were they are and see their progress. I believe that is how we should see Brad and his family. None of us are perfect and at 13, 14 most of us were messed up. Will seems less messed up than most. Not perfect but improving. That is as much as he can do. Where we any better at that age given his situation? At 13, 14 my father had died and there were times my mother had difficult getting through the day. We can only to our best. I feel Mark is taking Will from where he was to where he could be. I was rereading Millennium, JP's comment about Jim and Rich compared his family. His point was that in the long run Claire and Brad turned out pretty good even though they had an unorthodox family. I think Will has the ability to become an outstanding person.

Edited April 26, 2011 by rjo

[Hermetically Sealed]

I can't wait for the trip to Paris... I just know something good is going to happen there... I wonder if Will's mistake, where he will learn he isn't perfect, will happen there???

Assuming he ever gets a wake up call, that would certainly be a fitting place. Seems like just about all the men have had some sort of eye opener happen in Paris. It'd be like his own walkabout. LoL

[mmike1969]

I'd say Gathan should bring Kristin to Palo Alto to bring up real drama...

 

Kristin: wow JP, you look a LOT like my grandfather Bill...

 

But he really needs to stay away from Zach. He's bad news...

[Hermetically Sealed]

Kristin: wow JP, you look a LOT like my grandfather Bill..

That would be fun, in a sort of "Awwkwaaaaard!" kind of way.

[PrivateTim]

Hmm, so once again the thirteen year old kid wears the pants in the family. Can't see myself ever liking Will and his over developed sense of entitlement.

 

Definitely see Zach being trouble later on. Sad to see Gathan getting so much crap for his good fortune, but it's to be expected considering. Hopefully his plans to get to Stanford don't get side railed somehow.

 

I get what you are saying and wouldn't have disagreed 20 years ago, but these aren't traditional families, they are so complex my head hurts thinking about it.

 

I am also appalled by what I see of kids running their parents, not the other way around... and forget 13, I am talking about 7 year olds telling their parents what they are going to do.

[methodwriter85]

You guys have to remember that Baby Boomer parents like Brad had a much more indulgent parenting style than previous generations. There was also a strong push to make sure that the kids who went to elementary school in the early 90's were constantly told that they were special to encourage higher self-esteem, and everyone should get a ribbon just for showing up to play. Translation: Will's generation and co-horts are full of narcissistic, over-entitled twentysomethings who believe the world should change to suit their own needs, not the other way around.

 

Mark's actually doing a pretty good job depicting that less-than-pleasant aspect of Generation Y. You're pretty much seeing what happens when a dad decides to be a friend instead of an actual parent. Way too common with this generation.

Edited April 27, 2011 by methodwriter85

[B1ue]

Yeah, but let's not forget that Will himself actively encouraged that situation. He knew full well what he was doing by running to daddy to get what he wanted. This is something all three are culpable in, and the fact that Will knew exactly what his behavior was doing just further points out his selfishness. Teenager or not, knowingly pitting your parents against each other is not something nice people do.

 

Leave aside the right and wrong of his methods for a moment. He's self-entitled and full of himself; there's no questioning that. But consider, isn't he right? Isn't he quite correct that both Jeanine and Brad have let things go too long, allowed Will to be his own person for a very long time and are attempting to correct his behavior simply because they can? I'll allow that Brad, on the surface at least, thinks he ought to be more involved with Will's life. That's fine. But it isn't something I would have let my parents attempt unchallenged, and the limits my parent's imposed on me were done earlier and with less caprice.

 

The conflict is, in my eyes, pretty authentic. Will has drawn a line in the sand, and what exactly are his parent's options at this point? Will may have been the one to make it an either/or situtation, but they're culpale there too, and in any case it doesn't really matter. They can either go along and try to compromise within the limits that Will allows, or they can try to force him into compliance. And, yeah, that'd go well. Will would (and it is prefectly within his means to do so) run away from home to one of his other relatives, and if there was evidence that they were trying to control his behavior by means subtle or brutal, I doubt not they'd side with Will. Further, how many options does will have in addressing these greivances? Jeanine will not listen to him, this is well established and an unquestioned assumption by not just one character.

 

And, what of their greater experience? Will isn't trying to run a business, or buy a house. He's trying to run his own life, try to develop a relationship, and to finally get out of the line of fire of Jeanine's anger. She's admittedly and demonstrably less of a parent to Will than the children that are not even her own by blood. Who wouldn't want to escape that? What Will is asking for isn't even outrageous or uncommon, or something that both of Will's father's did not have at similar point's in their own lives, FOR SIMILAR REASONS.

 

It's one thing to dislike Will's manner. To dismiss his legitimate complaints as acting spoiled is to not really get the situation or the characters.

[PrivateTim]

The conflict is, in my eyes, pretty authentic. Will has drawn a line in the sand, and what exactly are his parent's options at this point? Will may have been the one to make it an either/or situtation, but they're culpale there too, and in any case it doesn't really matter. They can either go along and try to compromise within the limits that Will allows, or they can try to force him into compliance. And, yeah, that'd go well. Will would (and it is prefectly within his means to do so) run away from home to one of his other relatives, and if there was evidence that they were trying to control his behavior by means subtle or brutal, I doubt not they'd side with Will. Further, how many options does will have in addressing these greivances? Jeanine will not listen to him, this is well established and an unquestioned assumption by not just one character.

 

And, what of their greater experience? Will isn't trying to run a business, or buy a house. He's trying to run his own life, try to develop a relationship, and to finally get out of the line of fire of Jeanine's anger. She's admittedly and demonstrably less of a parent to Will than the children that are not even her own by blood. Who wouldn't want to escape that? What Will is asking for isn't even outrageous or uncommon, or something that both of Will's father's did not have at similar point's in their own lives, FOR SIMILAR REASONS.

 

It's one thing to dislike Will's manner. To dismiss his legitimate complaints as acting spoiled is to not really get the situation or the characters.

 

I can't see anyone in the family supporting Will running away just because he can't have his way. They might give Will a cooling off period, but in the absence of any threat to his well being, he'd be sent home. When Brad and Robbie ran away they had good reason to, there was real danger to Robbie. That isn't the case with Will. Will doesn't have any grievances. He is a classic spoiled rich kid who flies in private jets, lives in a multi-million dollar home on some of the most exclusive real estate in the world and he wants for nothing.

 

And what the hell does a 13 year old know about relationships that he doesn't need the guidance of adults. Parents are SUPPOSED to run the lives of teens because teens don't make good, informed decisions. Yes Mark has painted a portrait of a mature 8th grader, but it is still an 8th grader. Maybe Brad and Robbie have done things to remind the boys how lucky they are to have the lifestyle they do and have exposed them to the rougher side of life and included some volunteerism, but we really haven't much of that. It almost seems that Brad's first exposure in L.A was his contact with Father Tim and the shelter. Robbie's epiphany came at Claremont. I just think they are all now reaping the fruit of what they sowed by indulging Will.

[B1ue]

They might give Will a cooling off period, but in the absence of any threat to his well being, he'd be sent home.

To put it bluntly, a threat to his well being is pretty much what I meant. There's not to many ways you can force behavoir on someone, if they're willing to pay the price for their stubborness and unwilling to admit wrong.

 

And what the hell does a 13 year old know about relationships that he doesn't need the guidance of adults. Parents are SUPPOSED to run the lives of teens because teens don't make good, informed decisions.

I think a case can be made that these particular parents, especially in the last year, have not proven themselves capable of making good, informed decisions about relationships. And how is he supposed to figure out how to make such decisions if he doesn't make them himself? Though it pains me to hold Brad up as some sort of paragon, but in this instance, he's doing a more right thing. He's attempting to explain to Will where he's wrong, and giving Will credit enough to treat him as if he was his own person. Jeanine is not giving Will that kind of credit, treating him more as an obstacle or decoration than child. In fairness, that's how he treats her too, so I can't exaclty say she's unreasonable in doing so.

 

I'm not sure I can agree with you, and it runs quite contrary to my own experiences, that a parent's place is to directly run their teenager's life. But it may be your word choice, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant not quite what I think you said. Some teenagers may need more constraints and boundaries, but I picked my own classes, sports, and failed or succeeded on my own before intervention from higher. Heck, my sisters and I picked which high school we wanted to go to. Your verb "run," in my mind, implies all such choices should remain the parent's, down to the smallest detail, and the teenager gets to do exactly what they are told and nothing else.

[Mark Arbour]

I want to thank you guys for your insights on this story. It's kind of funny, but when I'm writing this, I'm trying to see things through Will's eyes, so you give me some perspective from the other side. My own experiences are that this time in life (14-18) is a time when adolescents are learning to be adults. Some get there faster than others; some never get there at all. There's a natural rebellion, a need to break free of the protective bonds that parents provide and carve your own path, and that's what I see causing the conflict between Will and his parents. Will thinks he's 21, Brad thinks he's 10, and Jeanine's got him pegged at about 7.

 

If I were to jump into Brad's mind right now, I think he'd be very frustrated that this person who he loves more than his own life is suddenly very difficult to deal with. I would guess that he'd be wondering where that guy was that he used to be able to surf with and have a good time with. I think he'd be a little disappointed that Will wasn't waiting at home for him to go surfing like he used to. He'd probably be evaluating the situation in his mind, and wondering if he was still the most important person in Will's life. His every move seems to be the wrong one. In situations like that, he's bound to pick the wrong battles to fight.

[PrivateTim]

To put it bluntly, a threat to his well being is pretty much what I meant. There's not to many ways you can force behavoir on someone, if they're willing to pay the price for their stubborness and unwilling to admit wrong.

 

I think a case can be made that these particular parents, especially in the last year, have not proven themselves capable of making good, informed decisions about relationships. And how is he supposed to figure out how to make such decisions if he doesn't make them himself? Though it pains me to hold Brad up as some sort of paragon, but in this instance, he's doing a more right thing. He's attempting to explain to Will where he's wrong, and giving Will credit enough to treat him as if he was his own person. Jeanine is not giving Will that kind of credit, treating him more as an obstacle or decoration than child. In fairness, that's how he treats her too, so I can't exaclty say she's unreasonable in doing so.

 

I'm not sure I can agree with you, and it runs quite contrary to my own experiences, that a parent's place is to directly run their teenager's life. But it may be your word choice, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant not quite what I think you said. Some teenagers may need more constraints and boundaries, but I picked my own classes, sports, and failed or succeeded on my own before intervention from higher. Heck, my sisters and I picked which high school we wanted to go to. Your verb "run," in my mind, implies all such choices should remain the parent's, down to the smallest detail, and the teenager gets to do exactly what they are told and nothing else.

 

What threat to Will's well being was there?

 

Parents run teens lives in that they decide where the teen is going to live, where they are going to high school, what boundaries they have, what the rules are going to be, which behaviors are acceptable and which are not and many other things, including what punishments for violating the ground rules. Few teens have any input into where they are going to school because of school district rules and even fewer have any input into where they are going to live, that is for the privileged. My friends who went to Catholic school had no say in the matter.

 

Yes a teen can choose his classes, but even that is limited because the school tells him what he has to have to graduate and doesn't leave that much room for electives. You can choose your friends and you can choose your behavior and your reaction to the limitations your parents put on you, but you can't choose your own curfew.

 

It doesn't matter if the adults in his life have made 100% correct decisions or even if the only batting .300, the point is they have the experience at making them and knowing the results. That is where wisdom comes from, learning from the mistakes you have made.

 

No one has ever said it better than Mark Twain, "When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."

[B1ue]

I'm not saying there's a threat at this moment. I am saying that I can imagine one character or another pushing things to the point where there is one, and Will chosing to leave rather than fight it further.

 

Again, that's not at all my experiences growing up. I chose to skip and test out of several classes in order to free up my schedule for the clubs I wanted to participate in, chose which high school I wanted to go to, and schools in an entirely different part of California were on that menu if I wanted them to be. District rules are laughably easy to get around; all you need is an address in the right area, or the compliance of the school board, which can be had if you build your case correctly. Where I lived was of course a factor; rougly half of trhe kids I went to 8th grade with went to an out of district high school, but some of my cousins in Los Angeles wanted a similar transfer, and got it. I did negotiate my own curfew. I also didn't abuse it once I had done so. Also, my parent's didn't even know what schools exactly I had applied to for college until after I'd picked. Neither of them went to college, how would they, natively intelligent and experienced as they were (which I never doubted, actually, I didn't go through any point where I thought my parents were idiots), have been of help?

[rjo]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I see parents as guides and mentors to their children. Jeanine seems like Will is her servant or slave just to obey orders. Children are not servants. What is really interesting is that Robbie seems is the best place with Will. Robbie asks Will to do something and Will does it. That is partly due to how Robbie asks and what he asks Will to do. He does not demand. Robbie is more laid back. At this point I remember a scene from a movie in which John Lithow as a minister giving a sermon. He was talking about raising children. He said, "How can our children learn to be trustworthy if we don't trust them?" Parents need to protect their children not smother them. If parents don't step back from time to time how will their kids learn to walk, ride a bike, learn to drive, became adults? Brad used to be my favorite narrator, Will is fast becoming my favorite. Even though Poor Man's Son is only 10 chapters so far I believe it is the best book. Part of that is the duel narrators Will and Gathan. Seeing these two young guys change and growup is going to be really interesting.

[methodwriter85]

I chose to skip and test out of several classes in order to free up my schedule for the clubs I wanted to participate in, chose which high school I wanted to go to, and schools in an entirely different part of California were on that menu if I wanted them to be. District rules are laughably easy to get around; all you need is an address in the right area, or the compliance of the school board, which can be had if you build your case correctly. Where I lived was of course a factor; rougly half of trhe kids I went to 8th grade with went to an out of district high school, but some of my cousins in Los Angeles wanted a similar transfer, and got it. I did negotiate my own curfew. I also didn't abuse it once I had done so. Also, my parent's didn't even know what schools exactly I had applied to for college until after I'd picked. Neither of them went to college, how would they, natively intelligent and experienced as they were (which I never doubted, actually, I didn't go through any point where I thought my parents were idiots), have been of help?

 

I chose my own high school as well. Of course, that's because in Delaware we have an option where people can "choice" into other school districts, and you can get in based on a lottery. Will could use some guidance, but frankly, Will seems to have it better together at 13 than Brad did at 17. He seems like a pretty self-sufficient kid. When he gets himself in a jam he'll need his parents, but I don't think he needs them to guide his entire life at this point. I think for Will, it's annoying that he doesn't get credit from his mother about how well he's handling and conducting his own life. When you're doing that well for yourself, you want recognization that you're not a little kid who needs his mommy to still hold his hand.

 

Although Will's going to find that making a honor roll in high school is going to much harder than it was in middle school, that's for damn sure. I wanna see that confident little shit squirm a little bit. Things are coming way too easy for that guy, and if we don't see him struggle at anything it'll get boring really quickly.

 

Anyway, here's a video about junior year at Gunn High.

 

 

Malibu looks so much cooler, but I like the racial diversity at Gunn. Given Brad's "Jap" comments, it might be good for Will to go a school that's like 34 percent Asian. From what I've read, Gunn sounds a lot like the math and science charter school that was upstairs, except they have a good football team.

Edited April 29, 2011 by methodwriter85

[mmike1969]

Spoiler alert -->

 

Yeah, those photos of Kristin should be enough to shock some members of the Crampton Clan...

[Mark Arbour]

Spoiler alert -->

 

Yeah, those photos of Kristin should be enough to shock some members of the Crampton Clan...

 

"Why JP, her blond hair looks just like yours." Now I just have to think up who'd say that.

[B1ue]

JJ, of course. Bright enough to connect the dots and pissy enough to actually say it.

[centexhairysub]

Well, I really enjoyed this chapter fully. I think this is the first chapter of this story that I can't find anything to really bitch about, I know, a miracle. I really am enjoying the dual narration and think it is giving a really interesting perspective to the story.

 

I think that at least to some extent Will is behaving just as his parents have raised him. Brad has always seeming treated Will as a young adult. Brad and several others in past stories have talked about how mature, serious, and grown up Will is. Suddenly, Will decides to act like an adult and start to make some of his own decisions and everyone is freaking completely out. I think it is harder to gauge Jeanine's parenting style because you just haven't seen much of it, although, I get the feeling that Jeanine was pretty loving when the kids were little but after they got a little older, each child seemed to pick a parent to bond with more closely. Darius choose Robbie, JJ choose Jeanine, and Will choose Brad; and each of the kids seem to reflect the personality of each of those parents to some extent.

 

Although I think Tim makes some good points, I think that ultimately he is not realizing that a threat can be more to just someone's physical well being. I think that Will views his parents behaviour as a threat to the very core of who he is. When Brad and Robbie ran away, there was not any immediate threat that Robbie was going to be taken, but Brad and Robbie believed it was a possibliity so they acted. I actually agree with some others that say Will is more mature at 13 then Brad was at 17. I don't think that Will is acting in a totally irresponsible manner. I do think that Will needs some more structure in his life but sometimes parents are not the best ones to provide that.

 

I can't wait for the trip to Paris... Have we ever found out who all is going? I sort of hope just Stef, Will, and John but might be more drama with a few others going... Gathan and Kristen would be an interesting addition. LOL...

 

Really like how Gathan related to Kristen and found that part of this chapter very interesting. Wonder where Kristen is going to college?

[mmike1969]

send HER to Stanford. Drama coming and going...

[Mark Arbour]

Isn't Kristin awesome.

 

Uh oh.

[KYE]

Well, I really enjoyed this chapter fully. I think this is the first chapter of this story that I can't find anything to really bitch about, I know, a miracle.

I am having dificulty that this story seems to defend Gathan's actions of rape as ok. As a defense of the term "No means Yes" that we are hearing about on many college campus'. Zach was raped by Gathan but keeps coming back for more. Then again in this chapter we have this comment about the girl Gathan raped:

 

“No,” I snapped, and then struggled to get control of myself. How could I tell her that Brittany was the one girl I’d slept with, the one who told me to stop. The one who had massive orgasms when I didn’t. “We hooked up once, that’s all.”

 

This is the mentality of many people about rape that they don't really mean NO when they say NO. Gathan rapes 2 people but the story tells us he rocked their world so "No really means Yes" just lay back and enjoy it. I think it is time for me to move on to another story.

Maybe I'll change my mind later but right now I don't know.

Edited April 30, 2011 by KYE

[Mark Arbour]

Well, I really enjoyed this chapter fully. I think this is the first chapter of this story that I can't find anything to really bitch about, I know, a miracle. I really am enjoying the dual narration and think it is giving a really interesting perspective to the story.

 

I think that at least to some extent Will is behaving just as his parents have raised him. Brad has always seeming treated Will as a young adult. Brad and several others in past stories have talked about how mature, serious, and grown up Will is. Suddenly, Will decides to act like an adult and start to make some of his own decisions and everyone is freaking completely out. I think it is harder to gauge Jeanine's parenting style because you just haven't seen much of it, although, I get the feeling that Jeanine was pretty loving when the kids were little but after they got a little older, each child seemed to pick a parent to bond with more closely. Darius choose Robbie, JJ choose Jeanine, and Will choose Brad; and each of the kids seem to reflect the personality of each of those parents to some extent.

 

Although I think Tim makes some good points, I think that ultimately he is not realizing that a threat can be more to just someone's physical well being. I think that Will views his parents behaviour as a threat to the very core of who he is. When Brad and Robbie ran away, there was not any immediate threat that Robbie was going to be taken, but Brad and Robbie believed it was a possibliity so they acted. I actually agree with some others that say Will is more mature at 13 then Brad was at 17. I don't think that Will is acting in a totally irresponsible manner. I do think that Will needs some more structure in his life but sometimes parents are not the best ones to provide that.

 

I can't wait for the trip to Paris... Have we ever found out who all is going? I sort of hope just Stef, Will, and John but might be more drama with a few others going... Gathan and Kristen would be an interesting addition. LOL...

 

Really like how Gathan related to Kristen and found that part of this chapter very interesting. Wonder where Kristen is going to college?

 

 

You liked this chapter, and it's got the lowest star rating of any of them (3 out of 5). Go figure. BTW, I liked it too. I guess we're contrarians.

 

 

[Mark Arbour]

I am having dificulty that this story seems to defend Gathan's actions of rape as ok. As a defense of the term "No means Yes" that we are hearing about on many college campus'. Zach was raped by Gathan but keeps coming back for more. Then again in this chapter we have this comment about the girl Gathan raped:

 

“No,” I snapped, and then struggled to get control of myself. How could I tell her that Brittany was the one girl I’d slept with, the one who told me to stop. The one who had massive orgasms when I didn’t. “We hooked up once, that’s all.”

 

This is the mentality of many people about rape that they don't really mean NO when they say NO. Gathan rapes 2 people but the story tells us he rocked their world so "No really means Yes" just lay back and enjoy it. I think it is time for me to move on to another story.

 

OK, I get what you're saying, but let me ask you this: do you think when people say "no" they always mean "no"? Yes, you should respond, no always means no. But does it? I'm not talking ideal world, I'm talking real world. I'm pointing this out because I'm not trying to make a point that it should be OK, but that it happens.

 

In this situation, did it work out that way? Not really. I didn't really lay the whole thing out, but with both Zach and Brittany, it weighs on Gathan's mind. The whole scene with Brittany won't totally evolve until he meets with David. But if Brittany tells Kristin she liked it, it was most likely one of her first encounters with a guy and as she got into it, she felt guilty and freaked out.

 

If it was OK, then Gathan wouldn't even be thinking about it. If he did, he'd be talking with bravado, about how he totally rocked her world, and how she couldn't resist him. Instead, it tweaks at him every time he thinks about sex. He knows it's wrong. One of his victims (Zach) is seriously f**ked up, while the other seems no worse for the wear. If I was him, right now, I'd be guilty and very confused.