Odyssey

[ricky]

Wow, where to begin! First, glad to see Baron Kingsdale turned out and regaining some composure befitting his station. Now all he needs are some pipes and he's all set for the adventure. We know he has to return home with sufficient funds to restore the Barony so prizes are a must. I expect that Granger's dad has adopted him so there will be letter's sent between the two. Something that may surprise Granger down the road when his father has knowledge and praise for things Granger, in his modesty omitted from his own correspondence. And I have no doubt that Kingsdale will charm Caroline as well.

 

I have to wonder what Cavendish knows that he chose not to impart in front of the First Lord. And this situation could be viewed as treachery by the Royal family. That won't be forgotten either if Granger saves the day. Couple that with a Royal Bastard in his care and he may just ascend to a higher status on his own merits again! Wouldn't THAT just put Freddies panties in a bunch!

 

Dr Jackson tied to Granger or the service. What a nice way to tie his behavior to the one vouching for him. And I suspect that is the ONLY reason for his salvation. The service to the King appears to be out of respect for Granger as well saying if he is killed his request will still be honored until such time as it is obvious that Granger was right in his assertions. If he was wrong then Granger's reputation would be the one to suffer.

 

The detour will mean he will be gone much longer than a year as well. He may come back and find his son grown considerably. And either of his parents could be lost in that time as well. Rescueing Americans would mean dropping them in California. Cape horn in itself is formidable. And always turbulent and nasty. Not something to look forward to.

 

Which brings me to some questions. There are no British bases out there especially after he rounds the horn. How does he maintain a cadre of officers if they are all sent off in prizes and no return is possible? How does he maintain a crew without ending up with more captives than signed men? His ship is not that big. Do they take seized ships to foreign ports and sell them? what then of the gold and silver? Having that kind of wealth onboard could in itself cause serious problems. If he has only three LT's and 3 prizes then he has not only depleted his suppl of LT's but midshipmen as well. What then? Captain ship's boy? It just seems he would have to take extra officers with him for just such occasions. It would be different if there were other British ships around but there won't be any until he gets to his destination. So somebody explain how that works for me please. I'd love to know.

 

As for this situation. There HAS to be family involved. Grangers dad has stock in John's company and this is too big and he's too powerful not to know about it. And what about Freddie? He's been way too quiet. Has he made some deal with promises to be kept when his father dies? And I'm surprises the Royal Prince was not aware that Maidstone was already gone. And why didn't Granger mention it? He talked like Maidstone was still going to be sailing with Granger. And don't we have a Mann/Wilcox installed in the West Indies that once before tried to make Granger's life a living hell? And will Granger get to see his Grandfather on his detour?

 

Glad to hear that Maidstone won't be on the ship at least. It would be extremely difficult to bump uglies with him on the other side of a thin partition without him finding out.

 

Perhaps, if Granger gets stuck in a mess, a blast of the wailing mutinous sounds of a set of pipes might be so foreign to those hearing it that it will serve as a distraction that will save the day. I wonder how far the screeching sounds of pipes carries on the open sea at night.

[JimCarter]

I won't waste space and time saying and wondering most of what Ricky said, and just say ditto!

[Daddydavek]

Also ditto to Ricky's rant above!

 

My speculation is that the Falklands make an appearance as George wreaks some havoc along the South American coast per his orders. I also wonder if that is where the prisoners are rescued?

 

As usual, I am enjoying the ride!

[Kookie]

Correct me if I am wrong. But Granger did not find out that Maidstone had sailed until after he had seen the King and the Duke of Claremont, so he could not have mentioned it. Also Spencer indicated Grangers orders were "discussed" with the privy council plus carrying he is carrying authority to appoint the Govenor if needed, therefore I am sure the King, the Prince of Wales, and Duke are well aware of the circumstances.

 

Now as to handling prizes, assuming he keeps the prizes with him until he has a couple and is sucessful in obtaining the release of the British and American sailors, it should be no problem to send a fleet of prizes under 1 officer to a British port. In addition, remember Granger has interest in a Privateer in West Indies. It might be possible they meet up, thus reducing the demand on Granger to crew the prizes. Also Brazil is a colony of Portugal (a British allie) so friendly ports are available. It will be intersting to see how Mark plays it out.

 

As far as the pardon for Dr. Jackson, I am surprise how quickly it was granted. I'm sure there will be no problem with the terms and seems to limit the Admiralty from posting the Dr to any ship not under Grangers command.

[Westie]

Comment deleted because I was completely wrong

-

Edited July 31, 2012 by Westie

[Westie]

Comment deleted because I was completely wrong

-

 

Err, no I wasn't. I should learn not to doubt myself.

 

The point of my now deleted post was to say that the proposed route that Granger is meant to take is not possible for his ship - or at the very least incredibly difficult.

 

Going WESTWARD towards the indies around cape horn is exceptionally difficult. The "roaring forties" come from the west. In addition what we now know as the antarctic circumpolar current pushes easterly. Given that given that Granger would be unable to take on food and water along the Spanish controlled South American coast, his last stop would be the Caribbean before he hit Australia. All that time battling against winds and tidal flows going in the opposite direction.

 

Magellan of course, DID transverse from east to west, from Atlantic to Pacific, but he DID NOT go around the Cape. He went through the Magellan Strait. However, it should be noted that this is controlled by the spanish, and would not be a possible route for Granger.

 

The so called "clipper route" ran the other way, catching the roaring forties in the atlantic, avoiding the unpredictability of the sea south of Africa somewhat, catapulting along to Australia and the East Indies. After completing trade, the clipper would catapult around Cape horn going from West to East, and try and catch a good current to aid the journey to Europe.

 

Given that the journey to the indies in one direction would be barely possible, and in the other direction would take 9 months even without a detour to fight the Spanish, I have to conclude that either Granger will NOT end up in the indies, or he will miss out on all the good action in the Mediterranean the following year.

 

That said, if anyone can find me an example of transversing the atlantic to the pacific around cape horn prior to 1922 (this is the first example I found), I would be happy to think myself wrong again.

 

West

[ricky]

Comment deleted because I was completely wrong

-

 

Westie, did you just do a, "I thought I was wrong once but I was mistaken?"

[Westie]

Westie, did you just do a, "I thought I was wrong once but I was mistaken?"

 

Well in this case.... Yes :-p

[ricky]

Well in this case.... Yes :-p

 

And it looks soooo good on you to. *snicker snicker*

That cloak of modesty, I mean.

 

You said what I was trying to get out rather unsuccessfully it appears. He's in a very small ship. That's a tough course for the monster vessels. NOBODY goes around the cape. And there is nobody and nothing down there to help. And it would be near impossible with a full crew that was of all seasoned sailors. The water there is so cold your nuts will disappear until you're too old to use them again. And we won't even talk about the wind and storms.

[Daddydavek]

So perhaps Mark's Odyssey is going to parallel Homer's more than we thought. Hopefully, it won't take 10 years for the voyage! But quoting from Wiki:

 

"Among the most noteworthy elements of the text are its non-linear plot, and the influence on events of choices made by women and serfs, besides the actions of fighting men. In the English language as well as many others, the word odyssey has come to refer to an epic voyage."

[Graham]

There seems to be some ‘point missing’ in past posts; there is something called 'poetic license' and I for one am looking forward to where Mark takes us. This story is an adventure first; historically as accurate as is possible, historic technically, in terms of seamanship and vagaries of sailing round the horn or not or indeed in any of the southern oceans is a treacherous business to say the least; but they are Mark’s choices to make.

 

Mark is the person who is taking us on this journey, we chose to go with him, or not and if his past writing skills, his penmanship, his knowledge of history, politics and of Royal Naval protocol, Royal Court protocol and processes, and the day to day management of a sailing ships is anything to go by then that is good enough for me. I intend to enjoy the story, so please if you need to make pedantic and critical comments take into account that this is a ‘fictional story!’

 

Keep up the good work Mark, don’t be deterred and let us have it ‘both barrels’ erm, cannons. If I didn’t know better I would think you were a Brit; but in any case, for me, you are an honorary one; your choice of course lol ;-)

[Westie]

There seems to be some ‘point missing’ in past posts; there is something called 'poetic license' and I for one am looking forward to where Mark takes us. This story is an adventure first; historically as accurate as is possible, historic technically, in terms of seamanship and vagaries of sailing round the horn or not or indeed in any of the southern oceans is a treacherous business to say the least; but they are Mark’s choices to make.

 

Mark is the person who is taking us on this journey, we chose to go with him, or not and if his past writing skills, his penmanship, his knowledge of history, politics and of Royal Naval protocol, Royal Court protocol and processes, and the day to day management of a sailing ships is anything to go by then that is good enough for me. I intend to enjoy the story, so please if you need to make pedantic and critical comments take into account that this is a ‘fictional story!’

 

Keep up the good work Mark, don’t be deterred and let us have it ‘both barrels’ erm, cannons. If I didn’t know better I would think you were a Brit; but in any case, for me, you are an honorary one; your choice of course lol ;-)

 

Poetic License allows the distortion of facts within an appropriate context in order to enhance a story, or (more usually) to make a scenario "fit" with a story. However, two points I want to make with regards to this. The first is that Mark strives to ensure that stories remain accurate and puts a lot of work into it. When he - very occasionally - does something "big", he usually gets called on it in the forums.

 

My second point is that any artistic license is dependent on context. So when you have a story that strives for accuracy, making a defining point of the story something so improbable (and almost impossible) as an east-west transversal of Cape Horn - without the protagonist commenting on the daunting and potentially fatal nature of that particular event - I dont think you can cloak that in "artistic license".

 

The final thing I want to mention is that many people within the community here, would see these stories as a starting point for their own education. A fascination about the era is something many of us have in common. I think counterpointing the story with relative fact, here in the forums, provides a richer experience for us as readers.

 

West

[ricky]

Poetic License allows the distortion of facts within an appropriate context in order to enhance a story, or (more usually) to make a scenario "fit" with a story. However, two points I want to make with regards to this. The first is that Mark strives to ensure that stories remain accurate and puts a lot of work into it. When he - very occasionally - does something "big", he usually gets called on it in the forums.

 

My second point is that any artistic license is dependent on context. So when you have a story that strives for accuracy, making a defining point of the story something so improbable (and almost impossible) as an east-west transversal of Cape Horn - without the protagonist commenting on the daunting and potentially fatal nature of that particular event - I dont think you can cloak that in "artistic license".

 

The final thing I want to mention is that many people within the community here, would see these stories as a starting point for their own education. A fascination about the era is something many of us have in common. I think counterpointing the story with relative fact, here in the forums, provides a richer experience for us as readers.

 

West

 

Well said Westie. And Grahm, no one is implying that Marks work is anything less than fantastic. And as a writer myself, I can tell you that nothing makes a writer happier than to know he has personified the entire story and that it has taken on life. It is so well fleshed that people tend to expect down to earth events. Mark likes this input I am sure. It provokes creative thought to the storyline and holds the writer to a certain standard that they themselves have imposed. Nothing is in concrete by our brainstorming or questioning. All that occurs is understanding and creative ideas.

 

You should see the discussions we have on TalonRiders forum regarding The Scrolls Of Iscaria by Jamie. And it's fantasy! But it is written to such a high standard that it too has taken life and evokes discussion because of its credibility. And if you have not read it, you really should. Every bit as addicting as either of Marks Series. And he has about 11 years worth of writing there.

Sorry, got on my soap box. You guys were suppose to kick the box out from under me when my eyes rolled back in my head. You know, sorta like leprechaun birth control.

 

So loosen up there, you're too tight.

And keep discussing things. Authors love that.

[Graham]

I guess this post will ‘ruffle a few feathers’ outrage some and I may get kicked off this forum for saying this but it seems to me that this ‘game people play’ (in true Eric Berne style/tradition) is one of: ‘mine is bigger/better than yours’ and is not only 'child like' but futile; and maybe seen from an outsiders perspective as ‘nit picking/one-up-man ship’.

 

I’m all for an intellectual debate, and relish the opportunity of participation; I also have the greatest respect for authors who are ‘good story tellers’ but they, by definition, be ‘good communicators’ as well; but I think a line needs to be drawn at ‘presumptive/envious’ comments on a colleagues work. I get a lot of this type of feedback as a Psychologist. I find an innovative way to communicate with a withdrawn disenfranchised and abused young person who has tried to ‘end’ him/her self on more occasions than I can count and my colleagues ask what about transference/counter-transference or projection etc... All very valid questions, but one has to ask one’s self why they asked in the first place, when the result is plain to be seen: the young person looks up, smiles or acknowledges the existence of another person!

 

Constructive criticism/feedback is very useful and often necessary; but when that ‘constructive criticism’ is tinged with ‘negative phraseology, innuendo, and assumptions’ it ceases to be constructive, and becomes a ‘game people play’, for whatever reason!

[Mark Arbour]

Err, no I wasn't. I should learn not to doubt myself.

 

The point of my now deleted post was to say that the proposed route that Granger is meant to take is not possible for his ship - or at the very least incredibly difficult.

 

Going WESTWARD towards the indies around cape horn is exceptionally difficult. The "roaring forties" come from the west. In addition what we now know as the antarctic circumpolar current pushes easterly. Given that given that Granger would be unable to take on food and water along the Spanish controlled South American coast, his last stop would be the Caribbean before he hit Australia. All that time battling against winds and tidal flows going in the opposite direction.

 

Magellan of course, DID transverse from east to west, from Atlantic to Pacific, but he DID NOT go around the Cape. He went through the Magellan Strait. However, it should be noted that this is controlled by the spanish, and would not be a possible route for Granger.

 

The so called "clipper route" ran the other way, catching the roaring forties in the atlantic, avoiding the unpredictability of the sea south of Africa somewhat, catapulting along to Australia and the East Indies. After completing trade, the clipper would catapult around Cape horn going from West to East, and try and catch a good current to aid the journey to Europe.

 

Given that the journey to the indies in one direction would be barely possible, and in the other direction would take 9 months even without a detour to fight the Spanish, I have to conclude that either Granger will NOT end up in the indies, or he will miss out on all the good action in the Mediterranean the following year.

 

That said, if anyone can find me an example of transversing the atlantic to the pacific around cape horn prior to 1922 (this is the first example I found), I would be happy to think myself wrong again.

 

West

 

Traversing the Horn from the Atlantic to the Pacific was difficult but not impossible, and was done often enough so as not to be all that unusual. One particularly good account is the travels of HMS Doris, a frigate that would be somewhat similar to Bacchante, in the 1820s. During the mid-1700s, Anson made a stunningly successful voyage around the world, sailing from East to West around the Horn ( voyages that Anson made). Clipper ships did make this voyage quite frequently during the California gold rush (1849+), taking passengers from the US East Coast around the Horn to the City. That's not to say that it is easy, as many ships found it to be a maddening and storm tossed experience.

 

As far as friendly ports, they will have ports available to them in Brazil, as that is a Portuguese colony. The Falkland Islands would have been largely uninhabited, but could have made for a quick stopping point if necessary, although probably only for water.

Edited August 4, 2012 by Mark Arbour

[JimCarter]

This comment isn't meant to be critical or controversial, but I thought we were sailing today. I can't seem to find the orders to sail.

[ricky]

Not all games are bad Grahm. Nor is negative Banter if it causes someone to re-examine the process they are currently involved in such a way that it opens their mind to previously unseen avenues. I applaud you for getting away from a flow chart written in the 1400's about behavior. Your field of medicine has become mired in its growth and flexibility to a point where it stopped growing and changing with humanity. Such a move will probably not make you popular with your contemporaries.

 

I just did a most unusual conference. It was about 400 physicists who deal in the area of super semi-conductors. Their Q & A sessions appeared to be a battlefield of Negative debate to the point of yelling. I had never seen anything like it. Then I spoke to one member. He seamed a little more sane than most. He explained that often people get so focused that they lose the advantage of possibilities and this type of debate often stimulated re-evaluation and opened many to new possibilities.

 

The lesson here? Remain flexible and don't get focused so intently on what you know. Or you may just become a hardened cog in the wheel of this huge dysfunctional machine.

 

Here it is much the same. Challenge helps open avenues to the writer that they may not have seen in their intense focus. Continuity is a huge part of this writers focus as the fabric of his story is gently woven with fact and fiction. Becoming unrealistic endangers bursting that bubble of disbelief. So this type of debate is very useful in that regard.

 

And as for your fears of expulsion. This is not that kind of site.

[Mark Arbour]

There seems to be some ‘point missing’ in past posts; there is something called 'poetic license' and I for one am looking forward to where Mark takes us. This story is an adventure first; historically as accurate as is possible, historic technically, in terms of seamanship and vagaries of sailing round the horn or not or indeed in any of the southern oceans is a treacherous business to say the least; but they are Mark’s choices to make.

 

Mark is the person who is taking us on this journey, we chose to go with him, or not and if his past writing skills, his penmanship, his knowledge of history, politics and of Royal Naval protocol, Royal Court protocol and processes, and the day to day management of a sailing ships is anything to go by then that is good enough for me. I intend to enjoy the story, so please if you need to make pedantic and critical comments take into account that this is a ‘fictional story!’

 

Keep up the good work Mark, don’t be deterred and let us have it ‘both barrels’ erm, cannons. If I didn’t know better I would think you were a Brit; but in any case, for me, you are an honorary one; your choice of course lol ;-)

 

Poetic License allows the distortion of facts within an appropriate context in order to enhance a story, or (more usually) to make a scenario "fit" with a story. However, two points I want to make with regards to this. The first is that Mark strives to ensure that stories remain accurate and puts a lot of work into it. When he - very occasionally - does something "big", he usually gets called on it in the forums.

 

My second point is that any artistic license is dependent on context. So when you have a story that strives for accuracy, making a defining point of the story something so improbable (and almost impossible) as an east-west transversal of Cape Horn - without the protagonist commenting on the daunting and potentially fatal nature of that particular event - I dont think you can cloak that in "artistic license".

 

The final thing I want to mention is that many people within the community here, would see these stories as a starting point for their own education. A fascination about the era is something many of us have in common. I think counterpointing the story with relative fact, here in the forums, provides a richer experience for us as readers.

 

West

 

I think you both make some excellent points here. And quite frankly, you're largely saying the same thing, just with a different allowance for how far afield I should be allowed to wander. The truth of the matter is that I try not to wander too far off what is plausible, and if I do, it's usually an error, and not by choice.

[Mark Arbour]

This comment isn't meant to be critical or controversial, but I thought we were sailing today. I can't seem to find the orders to sail.

 

I have a little more work to do on 16, so it should be up sometime within the next 24 hours.

[ricky]

I think you both make some excellent points here. And quite frankly, you're largely saying the same thing, just with a different allowance for how far afield I should be allowed to wander. The truth of the matter is that I try not to wander too far off what is plausible, and if I do, it's usually an error, and not by choice.

 

See! Told ya so.

[JimCarter]

I have a little more work to do on 16, so it should be up sometime within the next 24 hours.

 

Thanks for the update. You know how bad we junkies get close to fix time,

[Clydee]

Jack Aubrey did it in the "HMS Surprise" so it must have happened...it was in the movies so it must be true...

 

Going around the Horn, I mean! It sure didn't look like he was having a good time, though!

Edited August 4, 2012 by Clydee

[centexhairysub]

The new chapter is up and the ship is finally underway... I am so excited about this voyage. I am sure that there will be all sorts of adventure and danger along that way for Granger to overcome; that being said, I would not be upset if a certain 1st Lt did not survive the trip...

 

I am so glad to see Gaitling back on board with Granger. I always liked his character but hate to hear about his falling out with Lt Roberts... I have a feeling that Gaitling may come out ahead of Roberts after this voyage...

 

I have been out of pocket so missed a good deal of the discussion this week but Mark took up the slack about the trip from East to West and the possibilities. I was so wanting to point out Brazil was a Portuguese colony... In addition in the 1790's there were large areas of modern day Chile and Argentina that were unoccupied or explored. Even the Straits of Magellan were not as well controlled as previously indicated, the Spainish did have nominal control but not to the point of the exclusion of anyone else having access...

[Mark Arbour]

Jack Aubrey did it in the "HMS Surprise" so it must have happened...it was in the movies so it must be true...

 

Going around the Horn, I mean! It sure didn't look like he was having a good time, though!

 

Hornblower did it too, and he did it first.

 

The new chapter is up and the ship is finally underway... I am so excited about this voyage. I am sure that there will be all sorts of adventure and danger along that way for Granger to overcome; that being said, I would not be upset if a certain 1st Lt did not survive the trip...

 

I am so glad to see Gaitling back on board with Granger. I always liked his character but hate to hear about his falling out with Lt Roberts... I have a feeling that Gaitling may come out ahead of Roberts after this voyage...

 

I have been out of pocket so missed a good deal of the discussion this week but Mark took up the slack about the trip from East to West and the possibilities. I was so wanting to point out Brazil was a Portuguese colony... In addition in the 1790's there were large areas of modern day Chile and Argentina that were unoccupied or explored. Even the Straits of Magellan were not as well controlled as previously indicated, the Spainish did have nominal control but not to the point of the exclusion of anyone else having access...

 

That's a good point. Send me a PM about the unpopulated places in Argentina and Chile, if you get a chance. I haven't done any research on that yet.

[ricky]

The new chapter is up and the ship is finally underway... I am so excited about this voyage. I am sure that there will be all sorts of adventure and danger along that way for Granger to overcome; that being said, I would not be upset if a certain 1st Lt did not survive the trip...

 

I am so glad to see Gaitling back on board with Granger. I always liked his character but hate to hear about his falling out with Lt Roberts... I have a feeling that Gaitling may come out ahead of Roberts after this voyage...

 

I have been out of pocket so missed a good deal of the discussion this week but Mark took up the slack about the trip from East to West and the possibilities. I was so wanting to point out Brazil was a Portuguese colony... In addition in the 1790's there were large areas of modern day Chile and Argentina that were unoccupied or explored. Even the Straits of Magellan were not as well controlled as previously indicated, the Spainish did have nominal control but not to the point of the exclusion of anyone else having access...

 

I had a thought and it didn't die of loneliness so I decided to share it with you. Wouldn't Mr Roby and Mr Calvert be a perfect match? I think it would be interesting for them to meet and hook up. They are both so obsessive about monogamy. Granger will have no problem cuming up with a replacement. I would just hate to see Winkler pissed off if he lost a second lover to granger's affections. And now with Mr Gatling back on board, I think there may be another rat infestation in the chartroom.