9.11

[Kitt]

Wow. I can feel JP approaching his boiling point in this latest chapter!  I can't help but think of a sleeping volcano. It may not erupt often but when it does...

 

We already know that momma Dansfield is quite capable of putting someone into a political office and doing what ever she deems necessary to keep said politician in line. I would hate to see Gathan fall into her hands at some point in the future, but I can also totally see it happening once she decided her self exile should come to an end. I would think that would be a possibility for yet another book in the series.  "From Humble Roots" maybe?

 

Note to Mr. Arbour,

     You had asked me to expound on my comment on your anniversary about my family all reading your work. Check your messages sir! The response you requested is in your pm's.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Kitt

[Paige]

Mark, I really don't post here hardly at all, but I've read all of your novels. I truly love the combination of JP and Will as narrators in this piece. I really admire Will for learning from his mistakes and being so loyal and family oriented. That last scene where Will hugs JP in his study and “all but clings to me (him)" is beautiful. As is the part where his voice cracks when he thanks John for having his back. It's been great to follow Will's character development from a quiet young boy who was the spitting image of and idolized Brad to this larger than life, warm, loving, loyal, force of nature. LOL. I don't mind the teen drama, because I think it transcends. And I really enjoy having JP's POV back. Thank you for giving me something to look forward to each week with these chapters.   

[centexhairysub]

Okay, I spent way to much time writing in the review section so I have no time for this section...  I am going to simply post what I wrote there here, and I will argue with Tim about it later...

 

Well, I never thought I would live to see the day that Robbie was the calm and controlled one of the pair. I really think that Brad has lost his mind and I am starting to think that Stef is following him down the rabbit hole.

 

I know that all the Bradophiles are up in arms about how mistreated Brad is but I think they are all nuts... I just got through re-reading Be Rad and except for the destruction of property issue, Brad was much more out of control at the time of that story then Will is now; plus he was a couple of years older in age but obviously not in maturity. I am actually questioning whether or not Brad is as mature now as Will is during this story. Brad did a lot more drugs and drinking than Will has ever done. Except for pot, has there been any sign of Will doing any drugs? Brad did pot, coke, and mushrooms on a regular basis; plus Robbie says acid, although I really don't remember this from Be Rad. Brad was drunk just about every weekend and quite often during the week during Be Rad; I can only think of a hand full of times Will has even drank. You never saw him really drink in Hawaii; my guess is the bar is really more for visitors not for Will, himself. Now, I will give you that Will has slept with more guys than Brad but I think after going back over Be Rad that Brad had as much or more sex just with a fewer number of guys. Plus, if Brad hadn't been so paranoid about anyone knowing he was gay; he would have been a much bigger slut than Will has been. Brad had a pretty high number count for his age and that was with him being a paranoid closet case for years... Brad took part in several orgies while visiting Stef and we never really got a full view of his actions in them; so we can't even be sure that Will has actually slept with more men than Brad did in all honesty. Brad was also in several fights when he was Will's age, I can't recall Will ever beating anyone up. Finally, Brad was willing to destroy people, I mean actually ruin their lives when he was Will's age; that doesn't seem like anything that Will would ever do, or at least not over as little as Brad was willing to do it for...

 

The only thing that Will has done that I think is in error is cutting off all communication with his father except for conversations when other people are around and he is trying to keep it friendly but benign. The problem he has though is that everytime he tries to keep it benign; Brad wigs out and loses it. I really believe that Will would make an effort if Brad did not attack him everytime he opens his mouth. Plus, Brad's constant threats to go back to court is getting old. Honestly, he just needs to keep his mouth shut. Legally, he might win but it would be like the person that cuts off his nose to spite his face... Brad is like so many people that get to a certain age and seem to forget all the shit they did when they were young; it is like they mentally sanitize their past. Will did not kick Brad out of Escorial, Brad's behaviour brought that about...

 

Stef has always been Brad's biggest backer. When he and Brad became blood brothers all those years ago in Paris, Stef took it to heart. The problem is that Stef seems to be blind to how Brad treats others; which is often really badly. It is one thing to want to support and stand by someone because you care; it is another to enable them to destroy lives and run roughshod over everyone in their path. I could actually see JP and Stef breaking up if Stef cannot take a step back from his behaviour on this matter.

 

I think that Claire and Jack are moving on John because they don't want him to get as out of control as Marie has become. It seems the situation with Marie has come out of no where to some extent and they both seem blindsided by her change in behaviour, I still have to wonder what set this off... They want to make sure that John knows they don't approve of his having sex with just everybody... I am not sure they have handled everything in the best manner but they are making an effort; which is more than I can say for Brad.

 

I can't wait for the upcoming conversation between JP and Will... Don't make us wait too long, please Mark....

[MJ85]

Will:

 

 

Tell him to quit gossiping about me and talking about me, and to talk to me instead.

 

While only seconds before, Stef brought up Will's completely ignoring Brad. And yet Brad's supposed to even be able to try to talk to Will? Really?? This is what makes JP's immediately supporting Will on this as blindly supporting him - no more, no less. And I'm sure Stef knows this, too. JP really is coming off now like he's just blindly supporting Will for the sake of just that, whereby nothing else about it is even on his radar.

 

Brad is by no means right, but that does not mean that Will is 100% right, all of the time. Actually, with the way the entire family seems to be taking sides - most of them against Brad and Stef - I'd say nobody is.

 

This is, overall, starting to seem less like a separate story and more like Paternity Part Two.

Edited August 27, 2013 by MJ85

[rjo]

For a long time David, Tim and I agreed how Will had learned and was growing up. Before I continue I have always been very pro Will. Even in the days of cut shoes and acid, I stood for him. This chapter has shown me how much Will has grown. Will is having to battle Marie and the people at school and now his father. He handled Brad as best as he could. Brad, however, threatened Will in front of everyone during dinner and refuses to see the good deeds Will does, and manufactures the bad things he thinks Will is doing. It is Brad winning at all costs. Even if it would go to court, and Brad would win, he would lose in the end. I have seen this happen time after time. Families broken. People not talking to each other sometimes for years, sometimes forever. Will is almost 15. Brad could make his life hell for three years, but then he will lose his son for life. What is wrong with Brad? Is this Brad's pride getting in the way of his son? This is not a loving caring father. I wonder if Brad understands that. This reminds me of Mr. Martin. Remember how badly that turned out. It drove Will away. Only this time Will has a safe place to go. I think the lines are drawn and the damage could be even greater. Robbie and Brad seem to fight all the time. JP is really pissed at Stef. This could be big problems in the CAP world. All this with 9 11 looming in the future.

Edited August 27, 2013 by rjo

[Mark Arbour]

Will:

 

 

While only seconds before, Stef brought up Will's completely ignoring Brad. And yet Brad's supposed to even be able to try to talk to Will? Really?? This is what makes JP's immediately supporting Will on this as blindly supporting him - no more, no less. And I'm sure Stef knows this, too. JP really is coming off now like he's just blindly supporting Will for the sake of just that, whereby nothing else about it is even on his radar.

 

Brad is by no means right, but that does not mean that Will is 100% right, all of the time. Actually, with the way the entire family seems to be taking sides - most of them against Brad and Stef - I'd say nobody is.

 

This is, overall, starting to seem less like a separate story and more like Paternity Part Two.

 

I don't think that JP is blindly supporting Will in this.  JP's big issue (as he voiced) was that Will should not feel threatened in his own home, and that it was very inappropriate of Brad to do that.  He's also been adamant about maintaining confidences, and on that issue rests most of his irritation with Stef.

[Kitt]

Aside from the obvious implications that 911 may have in lost/hurt/missing family members, I can't help but think the tragedy of that day may be the catalyst that sets Brad's head straight. Perhaps it is a function of living so close to ground zero, but the people around me found themselves re-evaluating their lives and relationships in the days that followed. Many of us lost friends and family and it made us look at those we had left differently.

 

I don't see JP as "Immediately supporting Will for the sake of just that".  I think JP see's the forest in spite of the trees in the way and understands that Brad is pushing when he should be pulling. You want to get closer to someone stop being argumentative and pushing them away.

[Mark Arbour]

 

I think that Claire and Jack are moving on John because they don't want him to get as out of control as Marie has become. It seems the situation with Marie has come out of no where to some extent and they both seem blindsided by her change in behaviour, I still have to wonder what set this off... They want to make sure that John knows they don't approve of his having sex with just everybody... I am not sure they have handled everything in the best manner but they are making an effort; which is more than I can say for Brad.

 

I can't wait for the upcoming conversation between JP and Will... Don't make us wait too long, please Mark....

 

 

I've been in situations where I've had to chaperone 17 year old guys, and in one of those situations, the rules on sexual behavior were laughable.  I learned a long time ago that trying to harness and restrict the libido of males in their mid-late teens (depending on maturity levels) is a bit like trying to stop the tides.  It's futile.  Especially if the guys in question are hot.  But I can see why Jack and Claire feel the need to try, I just think it's futile.

 

I'm wondering why no one has raised the double-standard issue?  Darius has been sexually active for a long time, probably as busy as Will.  Even when he was under 18, no one said anything about that (not even here in the forums).  Is there some reason why heterosex is OK, but homosex isn't? 

[MJ85]

I've been in situations where I've had to chaperone 17 year old guys, and in one of those situations, the rules on sexual behavior were laughable.  I learned a long time ago that trying to harness and restrict the libido of males in their mid-late teens (depending on maturity levels) is a bit like trying to stop the tides.  It's futile.  Especially if the guys in question are hot.  But I can see why Jack and Claire feel the need to try, I just think it's futile.

 

I'm wondering why no one has raised the double-standard issue?  Darius has been sexually active for a long time, probably as busy as Will.  Even when he was under 18, no one said anything about that (not even here in the forums).  Is there some reason why heterosex is OK, but homosex isn't? 

 

We've been fully exposed to Will's recent sexual history, exhaustively so. That's not the case for Darius or even for John.

[davewri]

I believe Will did the smart thing by leaving and refusing to continue the fight.  I have been thru a few very emotional situations that could have ended better if one of us had walked away.  Brad has painful memories of his own teen years and doesn't want Will to be "out of control".  But Brad does not seem able to maintain the needed self discipline to talk calmly to Will.  It can be seen as hypocrisy to tell some one not to do the same things they have done.  It can also be seen as wisdom to share your past mistakes and what you learned from them.  It may seem that Will is wise beyond his years on many things, but he is still a kid in most things. 

[sat8997]

 And yet Brad's supposed to even be able to try to talk to Will? Really?? 

 

Brad doesn't talk to Will; Brad talks at Will. Big difference.

[Daddydavek]

Brad doesn't talk to Will; Brad talks at Will. Big difference.

 

I think Sharon hit the nail on the head.  If Brad were really a concerned parent he would make sure that he opened some line of communication, even if it meant he had to write Will a letter.  Just criticizing or disparaging him in front of the family is a sure way to drive him away.  I think that's what concerns JP the most too.  

 

Being a parent is never easy.   Knowing when to let go and let them do their thing is always tough.  My kids are both in their thirties and I bite my tongue instead of reacting spontaneously.   They still don't like to hear criticism, especially if it is direct and in front of others.  

[PrivateTim]

Oh man my head is spinning, I hardly know where to start..... a lot of inaccuracies and mis-remembering I think.

 

1) In no way would Brad win a court battle to revoke Will's emancipation unless Will was in a coma from a heroin overdose at the end of a long string of arrests and failures. Brad's time to protest the emancipation was before it was granted. He made the correct call in not fighting it, but supporting it....  which is why the current Brad's behavior is incongruous with the Brad who made that decision. I will chalk it up to "author's prerogative" in order to bring about a situation he can resolve in later chapters.

 

2) It is ironic that everyone who wants Marie broken, knuckled under, house arrested, shipped off to boarding/military school decried such actions for the much more out of control Will less than a year ago.

 

3) You can not use Mr. Martin as a justification for anything since before Will knew he was going to be abusive, he'd already taken steps to run away and drug Mr. Martin.

 

4) I am not sure where people see all this growth and maturity in Will. Refusing to take his father's phone calls or other wise speak with him is the ultimate immaturity. People who are adults talk over situations. Irrespective of how Brad acts, Will, if he were the wise, mature person he is supposed to be wouldn't fly off the handle and runaway every time he is mad at his father. The advice Darius gave him for school would work doubly well on Brad. Nothing would get under Brad's skin more than a calm Will (whether or not he felt calm on the inside) and give blase answers to Brad's threats ("yeah, yeah take me back to court, can someone pass the green beans")

 

5) Why does everyone assume that an adult who doesn't think their 14 year old should be getting drunk, smoking pot and having sex with 30+ partners has forgotten their youthful exploits? How about an adult who has grown up and looking back realizes that all those exploits were not necessarily the healthiest things for them and they are trying to use the benefit of their experience to help their kids avoid the same?

 

6) I think Will is being a complete asshole to his father. Why does Will expect that treating his father the way he does will produce positive results? If he would take Brad's calls, had taken them in Hawaii and talked to his father he might have been able to diffuse the situation, but he chooses instead to not take because he knows it pushes Brad's buttons. (*note to dear readers, don't bluster back about Brad's behavior, because Brad's bad behaviors do not justify Will's bad behavior. A mature person would call Brad on his behavior in a calm manner, a rational manner and would make the efforts to hold a civil conversation. If Brad doesn't react in a civilized manner then Will can call him on it, not get his panties in a wad and runaway again.)

7) Will has defacto thrown Brad out of Escorial. His passive aggressive behavior has placed JP in the situation of making his son not welcome in his house or his unstable grandson, who less than a year ago ran away after drugging his father and Martin and wracking utter destruction on his parents possessions. It is wrong (immature) of Will to place JP in that position, but is typical of an immature teen who places their self at the center of the universe.

 

8) Brad does not talk at Will given how few opportunities Will gives him to talk to him at all. Will managed to contribute to his mother's instability by treating her like hired help and not his mother (but Brad had his hand in contributing to that by not backing up Jeannine in her discipline of Will and not co-parenting).

 

9) You can not simultaneously praise Will for his maturity while excusing his bad behavior as the mistakes of youth.

 

Lastly, I don't see any double standard in the sexploits of Darius vs Will since I couldn't begin to guess how many sexual encounters Darius has had since we've only seen him with a couple of partners. 85% of teens 12th grade and under have had fewer than four sex partners through high school and 15.9 was the average age for a teen boy to lose his virginity. If Darius had more than 4 when he graduated from HS, that would put him in the minority with Will who has already blown the doors off the averages not just for high school students, but for men in general since only 29% of men, under the age of 59 have had 15 or more partners.

[Kitt]

Brad doesn't talk to Will; Brad talks at Will. Big difference.

Brad often doesn't even talk at Will - he shouts at him.  

[MJ85]

I think Sharon hit the nail on the head.  If Brad were really a concerned parent he would make sure that he opened some line of communication, even if it meant he had to write Will a letter.  Just criticizing or disparaging him in front of the family is a sure way to drive him away.  I think that's what concerns JP the most too.

 

Except that Will has either totally ignored Brad's attempts to communicate with him, bad or otherwise, or responded with in-kind hostility. Which is why I find his request to Stef that Brad talk directly to him just flat-out ridiculous, because said request is not evidence that he won't just do the same should Brad take him up on it.

[mmike1969]

 

1) In no way would Brad win a court battle to revoke Will's emancipation unless Will was in a coma from a heroin overdose at the end of a long string of arrests and failures. Brad's time to protest the emancipation was before it was granted. He made the correct call in not fighting it, but supporting it....  which is why the current Brad's behavior is incongruous with the Brad who made that decision. I will chalk it up to "author's prerogative" in order to bring about a situation he can resolve in later chapters.

 

2) It is ironic that everyone who wants Marie broken, knuckled under, house arrested, shipped off to boarding/military school decried such actions for the much more out of control Will less than a year ago.

...

 

1)  Brad was trying to use reverse-physiology.  It didn't work 

 

2) Actually I have been suggesting Military schools to a  lot of these privileged kids of the Cramptons/Schulters/Hayes/Hendricksons. 

 

4) Better to refuse to talk to someone then start having a yelling conversation on a cell phone.  Those people annoy the hell out of me at the coffee shop.

 

5) There is no way in hell Brad has any business talking to his pot smoking, alcohol drinking, multiple sex partner having teenage son.  Brad's actions prove that in Millenium with his pot smoking, alcohol drinking and multiple sex partners... Brad is an Adult?  Well 

maybe he forgot about his actions from less then 2 years ago?

 

6) Every single time Brad was within 10 feet of Will, Brad opens his mouth and starts yelling crap.  As his father, it IS in his right to do so.  But again, Will has been emancipated, so NO Will does NOT have to put up with it.

 

8) Will treating Jeannie as the hired help?  I wonder where he picked THAT up from?  Maybe if Brad himself was actually there instead of depending on Jeannie and Robbie?  I know it did not come from Will behaving badly since he treats people (the hired help, workers in restaurants) fairly until you treat him and others like crap.

 

9) Meh... I've seen supposed "adults" act like complete and utter morons.  Just look at the TV with shows like Cops and pick any random "Reality Show".

 

Double standards RE: Darius and Will?  To our knowledge, Darius was never kidnapped and almost Raped. It could be Brad trying to protect Will? (Yeah, I don't buy that either!)

 

 

 

 

Well, I never thought I would live to see the day that Robbie was the calm and controlled one of the pair. I really think that Brad has lost his mind and I am starting to think that Stef is following him down the rabbit hole.

 

Well Duh! That's what happens when you can get a LOT of sex. Maybe Robbie should be the top and take care of Brad for a while.  Just saying.

[centexhairysub]

Brad doesn't talk to Will; Brad talks at Will. Big difference.

 

This is the best statement made today; and the biggest reason that Will and Brad are having issues...

[centexhairysub]

I don't for a moment believe that Will is right in all aspects of this current drama with Brad.  The problem I have is that Brad is acting more like a child than Will is.  I would actually support Will walking away and not talking to his father from a theraputic stand point if everytime they have a conversation; Brad attemps to scream at, bully, and intimidate Will.  No one should have to put up with abuse like that, and yes, yelling at someone everytime you have a conversation with them is abuse.  It is better for Will to walk away and not engage his father in a conversation under those circumstances.  I cannot remember a chapter in quite a while that Brad, when dealing with Will, hasn't attempted to either bully or intimidate or yell at Will at some point when they talk. 

 

 

Brad has always been a bully.  From Be Rad to 9/11, there are numerous examples of Brad being verbally abusive and bullying towards those he supposedly cares about as well as others.  On of my biggest issues when Brad and Robbie split during Millenium was how Brad had over the years made jabs at Robbie for being fat, balding, losing his sex drive, etc...  So many people on this forum were just shocked that Robbie took the action that he did; but being constantly belittled is a form of abuse and I said then and reiterate now, Robbie probably needed the break from Brad to decide how he felt and if he was willing to put up with Brad's behaviour.  Now, I am not saying that everything Robbie did was right; rarely is anyone right in all areas of any situation.  The issue is that Brad has a history of being wrong and using his looks, sex appeal, wealth, power, and connections to force those around him into coming around to his point of view...

[PrivateTim]

5) There is no way in hell Brad has any business talking to his pot smoking, alcohol drinking, multiple sex partner having teenage son.  Brad's actions prove that in Millenium with his pot smoking, alcohol drinking and multiple sex partners... Brad is an Adult?  Well maybe he forgot about his actions from less then 2 years ago?

 

 

As a Californian you should know that pot smoking, alcohol drinking and multiple sex partners are all legal activities for someone over 18 years of age and illegal for someone 14 years of age.

[Mark Arbour]

As a Californian you should know that pot smoking, alcohol drinking and multiple sex partners are all legal activities for someone over 18 years of age and illegal for someone 14 years of age.

 

You sound like Brad.  

Edited August 28, 2013 by Mark Arbour

[mmike1969]

As a Californian you should know that pot smoking, alcohol drinking and multiple sex partners are all legal activities for someone over 18 years of age and illegal for someone 14 years of age.

Pot was medicinal (prove otherwise), drinking is an issue, and sex is not illegal if both was under 18.

 

And seriously? Legal? Last time I checked committing murder or hiring someone to commit murder was illegal too but that didn't stop the story now did it?

[Kitt]

Last time i looked it was also illegal to buy ice cream after 6 pm on Sunday's unless you have a doctors prescription in one town. Being "legal" for Brad and "illegal" for Will does not change the fact that Brad has adopted a "do as I say not as I do" attitude and is doing it with extreme animosity and frequently at the top of his lungs.

 

 

 

And pot smoking is legal in California?  I was under the impression that was only if you have a medical card.  And btw- smoking regular cigarettes are illegal under 18 as well - doesn't stop thousands of kids does it?

Edited August 28, 2013 by Kitt

[PrivateTim]

Pot was medicinal (prove otherwise), drinking is an issue, and sex is not illegal if both was under 18.

 

And seriously? Legal? Last time I checked committing murder or hiring someone to commit murder was illegal too but that didn't stop the story now did it?

 

Pot has been defacto legal to smoke in CA for many years, long before medical marijuana because the vogue. Possession of small amounts of marijuana was only a ticketable offense and many police stopped even doing that. They still went after traffickers, but the JPs of the world who were growing for home usage were pointedly ignored.

 

As to sex, I do think you need to check the California Penal Code.

 

CPC 261.5 a states, "Unlawful sexual intercourse is an act of sexual intercourse accomplished with a person who is not the spouse of the perpetrator, if the person is a minor."

 

CPC 261.5 b states, "Any person who engages in an act of unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor who is not more than three years older or three years younger than the perpetrator, is guilty of a misdemeanor."

 

So under CA law, even minors may not lawfully have sex with each other. I am not saying that prosecutors are standing in line to prosecute minors for having sex with each other, but they can and have.

 

Not sure where murder came into the discussion. The discussion was about the difference between activities that are legal at one age, but not at another because the law recognizes that children do not have the proper judgement to engage in certain activities. A parent who drinks is not a hypocrite for telling their 14 year old not to drink. They are not even a hypocrite if they drank at 14. They are imparting their wisdom to the 14 year old on the topic through experience.

 

Last time i looked it was also illegal to buy ice cream after 6 pm on Sunday's unless you have a doctors prescription in one town. Being "legal" for Brad and "illegal" for Will does not change the fact that Brad has adopted a "do as I say not as I do" attitude and is doing it with extreme animosity and frequently at the top of his lungs.

 

And pot smoking is legal in California?  I was under the impression that was only if you have a medical card.  And btw - smoking regular cigarettes are illegal under 18 as well - doesn't stop thousands of kids does it?

 

Kitt, the point is not the law stops anyone from actually breaking the law, but that it is the law. It all stems from the many comments about Brad's hypocrisy because he drank and smoked in high school. it is okay to tell a 14 year old, 'yes I drink and you can too when you are 21'. There is nothing hypocritical in that. it is also okay to tell your kid, 'yes I drink when I was in high school and it was a mistake for the following reasons'. That is what parents are supposed to do, impart the wisdom of their experience to their children. In Brad's case his drinking and that of his peers led to the death of his brother and a lifelong wedge with his step mother. Seems to me he has pretty good reason to call his son on his drinking.

 

As to pot smoking, you can not be arrested or imprisoned for possession of one ounce or less. It is a ticket with a fine of $100, if they bother to write you up.

[Gene Splicer PHD]

"The Land Whore" ended in 1974, right? "Be Rad" starts in 1980, when Brad was 17.

 

We have no idea what Brad was up to when he was Will's age. Unless Brad talks about it in "Be Rad" it's unwritten backstory. 

 

Fill us in, Mark, tell us from where Brad is getting his moral outrage.

 

 

Edit: I am re-reading Be Rad, just because...

Edited August 28, 2013 by Gene Splicer PHD

[methodwriter85]

   Well, last time I checked, when Brad was 17 in the summer of 1980, it was illegal for a 17-year old to drink, smoke pot, snort cocaine, and drop acid, but that sure didn't stop Brad.