When English isn't your first language...

[Timothy M.]

Thanks Thorn I might take you up on that offer - though you may regret it when you see the 21 chapters ! No don't worry I'll never bother you with that, just ask your opinion on some of the difficult passages. But I'll take your advice on the opnening paragraph immediately and change it to:

 

Normally, it's all about doping when you read the memoirs of a professional cyclist who has participated in the Grand Tours and Classics in Europe.

 

You are quite right, it sounds so much better - and the funny part is I wrote this story more than two years ago, before the really big confessions (Lance etc) came out.

 

I'm impressed that you can read Danish, but I guess that you are of Nordic origin yourself (from one of your comments above). Altid hyggeligt (roligt) at støde på en anden skandinav ude i verden.

[Thorn Wilde]

Thanks Thorn I might take you up on that offer - though you may regret it when you see the 21 chapters ! No don't worry I'll never bother you with that, just ask your opinion on some of the difficult passages. But I'll take your advice on the opnening paragraph immediately and change it to:

 

Normally, it's all about doping when you read the memoirs of a professional cyclist who has participated in the Grand Tours and Classics in Europe.

 

You are quite right, it sounds so much better - and the funny part is I wrote this story more than two years ago, before the really big confessions (Lance etc) came out.

 

I'm impressed that you can read Danish, but I guess that you are of Nordic origin yourself (from one of your comments above). Altid hyggeligt (roligt) at støde på en anden skandinav ude i verden.

 

I live in Norway, was born in Finland. I speak Swedish and Norwegian fluently. Written Danish reads almost the same as Norwegian, really. And I grew up hearing most Nordic languages spoken around me. If I really have to, I can interpret Icelandic and Faroese well enough to get the gist of a conversation, if I just try hard enough.

[hh5]

One of the issues with translators is how current the language translation is. Blu, took my google french translations n toss it in the scrape heap. The french translation wasn't current day french usage. Seeing the changes, he made, sort of surprised me of how much the language changed in 40 years. Heck, I'm just starting to get use to a word with modifiers that follow after it. ie: the red car => la voiture rouge and then get basted with other requirements of the language, feminine or masculine, etc etc  

 

The same goes with translating things to japanese. When my mother visited Japan, the younger would say to her that she's not speaking japanese. I've observed my mother speaking japanese in the usa and some of the japanese ppl that visited the usa during the 80s. I've watch japanese movies before and found she is speaking japanese. The issue with the younger is that my mother isn't speaking Jenglish. They don't exactly tell you upfront except by giving some examples. Its a crazy form of including English in their form of pronunciations.

 

ie: buffet, the Jenglish word sounds like "biking" but what they're really saying "biting" and that means buffet

ie: aggravation, the Jenglish word sounds like "ahh com bay." Gosh its aggravating trying to understand Jenglish if some ppl employ their own Jenglish words for aggravation.

 

In a different talk by my mother, the japanese has a different pronunciation which really throws a wrench in american words. There are some words they can't pronounce because its sort of out of bounds for them unless they had taken English as a second language. If not the next best thing, Jenglish. The new code book for the old ppl or the ones that learn japanese in america.

 

I'm sure canadian french and original french must have similar differences. The french getting annoyed with the canadian french style and visa versa. Some are completely annoyed with each other and some make an effort to understand each other. lol, its the drama of foreign vacation war stories to be heard.

 

The great thing about GA is that we share and expose each other about each of our countries language requirements. Gosh it must be some talk when it comes to getting the translation right for the century or region that one is trying to write about.

 

lol, its a good thing JK Rowling has a team of translators or else she would not achieve world wide fame.

[thebrinkoftime]

The same goes with translating things to japanese. When my mother visited Japan, the younger would say to her that she's not speaking japanese. I've observed my mother speaking japanese in the usa and some of the japanese ppl that visited the usa during the 80s. I've watch japanese movies before and found she is speaking japanese. The issue with the younger is that my mother isn't speaking Jenglish. They don't exactly tell you upfront except by giving some examples. Its a crazy form of including English in their form of pronunciations.

 

ie: buffet, the Jenglish word sounds like "biking" but what they're really saying "biting" and that means buffet

ie: aggravation, the Jenglish word sounds like "ahh com bay." Gosh its aggravating trying to understand Jenglish if some ppl employ their own Jenglish words for aggravation.

 

In a different talk by my mother, the japanese has a different pronunciation which really throws a wrench in american words. There are some words they can't pronounce because its sort of out of bounds for them unless they had taken English as a second language. If not the next best thing, Jenglish. The new code book for the old ppl or the ones that learn japanese in america.

 

Are you talking about waseieigo, or Japanese-created new words from foreign constructs in katakana? I can imagine that that might have formed some of the difficulty with your mum and other generations, but only part. It really isn't just English though. Gairaigo, or foreign loan words are all rendered in katakana, so French, German, Spanish, Arabic, anything from a different language automagically gets rendered in katakana. It isn't an English phenomenon and it's been happening for a lot longer than 30 years ago. If it were English than x-ray wouldn't be rentogen, which is based on a German inventor's name, or the word for bread would be bureddo, not pan, which is taken directly from French.

 

Still, I imagine that's only part of the problem. Slang used by younger people is just as often based on taking native Japanese words into new forms. So for instance, chacku, the word for zippers is taken from the Japanese word kinchaku, but katakana is used to render it even though it's Japanese. Your examples are a good mixture of that, because your first one really is "viking" -- it's the word for all you can eat because we imagine the old vikings doing just that: They came. They saw. They eat. It is not supposed to mean biting, which would be baitingu or bainchingu, not baikingu. Akanbee is much older than heavy Japanese contact with English and is not necessarily a word or expression that gets across frustration. It is simply the name for pulling down your eyelid until you see red (aka would be red in Japanese, thus akanbee) and sticking your tongue, these often saying, "beee" as you do so. (Pronounced "bay.") It is a Japanese expression based on Japanese words and has nothing to do with English, since it is thought to have Buddhist origins. It's also really old and not exactly something that older and newer generations don't understand.

 

Other than the fact that we devote one of our three "alphabets" to it, it's really no different from the way English appropriates loan words from other Japanese words, such as the funny way English speakers pronounce words like tsunami, sushi, karaoke or hara-kiri, which is a similar warping of the original pronunciation, or the different spelling and meaning for words like honcho and skosh, which also came from Japanese.

 

I think another issue is the way we think when we say "I speak such and such language." In English, I notice a lot of people say that they can speak Japanese, even though their Japanese is pitiful and hilarious. Japanese on the other hand don't tend to say they can speak a language even if they can speak it somewhat -- unless they are fluent, which we consider actually being able to speak a language. So when I first had visits to English-speaking countries and couldn't speak as well as I do now, I would say, "I can't speak English" and people would get confused and say, "But you are speaking it right now."

[hh5]

thanks for the clarifications ... that young person must like using the combination of slang n waseieigo\katakana ... it sort hits the generation gap hard especially when my mom can speak japanese but hasn't been in japan for a few decades ....

 

the akanbee ... thats my aunts friend ... she a bit nutty when she refuses to embrace the english language after 30-40 years in america ... her children are very americanized .. I never met them enough to know if they do speak japanese ... but all in all ... the american husband has adapted very well and loves visiting japan

 

your later paragraph ... is very humorous when one meets someone who claims to be fluent ... and is not ... for the observers they wait to see when the such a guy realizes the other guy doesn't speak a word of it ... the comedy of misplaced trust

 

imagine a korean that comes to america for the ESL program who has already taken the korean ESL program back in his own country ... he comes here in the usa to obtain the piece of paper that he's done the program ... but the real reason of his visit is to have fun and obtain the charity of the people he meets to go places while spending minimally ... goes back to korea and parades the experience as a way of getting a job quicker ... getting a position as a korean to american relations business liaison ...

imagine experiencing part of this first hand ... somewhere there's the positive experience of telling others ... somewhere there is the negative experience of being the host ... but somewhere is the comedy of the misplaced trust that comes in the form of a one time family experience ... the comedy is the bad apple makes the host wiser to ever host again

Are you talking about waseieigo, or Japanese-created new words from foreign constructs in katakana? I can imagine that that might have formed some of the difficulty with your mum and other generations, but only part. It really isn't just English though. Gairaigo, or foreign loan words are all rendered in katakana, so French, German, Spanish, Arabic, anything from a different language automagically gets rendered in katakana. It isn't an English phenomenon and it's been happening for a lot longer than 30 years ago. If it were English than x-ray wouldn't be rentogen, which is based on a German inventor's name, or the word for bread would be bureddo, not pan, which is taken directly from French.

 

Still, I imagine that's only part of the problem. Slang used by younger people is just as often based on taking native Japanese words into new forms. So for instance, chacku, the word for zippers is taken from the Japanese word kinchaku, but katakana is used to render it even though it's Japanese. Your examples are a good mixture of that, because your first one really is "viking" -- it's the word for all you can eat because we imagine the old vikings doing just that: They came. They saw. They eat. It is not supposed to mean biting, which would be baitingu or bainchingu, not baikingu. Akanbee is much older than heavy Japanese contact with English and is not necessarily a word or expression that gets across frustration. It is simply the name for pulling down your eyelid until you see red (aka would be red in Japanese, thus akanbee) and sticking your tongue, these often saying, "beee" as you do so. (Pronounced "bay.") It is a Japanese expression based on Japanese words and has nothing to do with English, since it is thought to have Buddhist origins. It's also really old and not exactly something that older and newer generations don't understand.

 

Other than the fact that we devote one of our three "alphabets" to it, it's really no different from the way English appropriates loan words from other Japanese words, such as the funny way English speakers pronounce words like tsunami, sushi, karaoke or hara-kiri, which is a similar warping of the original pronunciation, or the different spelling and meaning for words like honcho and skosh, which also came from Japanese.

 

I think another issue is the way we think when we say "I speak such and such language." In English, I notice a lot of people say that they can speak Japanese, even though their Japanese is pitiful and hilarious. Japanese on the other hand don't tend to say they can speak a language even if they can speak it somewhat -- unless they are fluent, which we consider actually being able to speak a language. So when I first had visits to English-speaking countries and couldn't speak as well as I do now, I would say, "I can't speak English" and people would get confused and say, "But you are speaking it right now."

Edited October 2, 2013 by hh5