Headstall Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 It is always amusing in a discussion when because you won't switch your belief to the other person's view, you are the one being unreasonable. Quote from PrivateTim I couldn't agree with you more...like a dog with a bone ...while amusing, I wonder if this thread will ever end....and I must say I am in awe of the power of WILL...and a person can certainly be reasonable without being logical
mmike1969 Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 I want Zach to get drunk and sign up enlistment papers to join the Army. Or maybe air force since their standards are lower.
Mark Arbour Posted June 12, 2014 Author Posted June 12, 2014 Something to ponder: Flux has been a little sedate lately. Things pick up a little bit, starting with Chapter 30. And that will post on Father's Day, which is Sunday. For real. 3
impunity Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 I've never had a really good reason to look forward to Father's Day before.
Daddydavek Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 Something to ponder: Flux has been a little sedate lately. Things pick up a little bit, starting with Chapter 30. And that will post on Father's Day, which is Sunday. For real. Wow, something else to look forward to besides barbecued pork steaks! 1
Mark Arbour Posted June 12, 2014 Author Posted June 12, 2014 Wow, something else to look forward to besides barbecued pork steaks! Such a St. Louis boy. Pork steaks.
Daddydavek Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 Such a St. Louis boy. Pork steaks. Yup! My daughter said she was bringing some gooey butter cake for breakfast too! 3
PrivateTim Posted June 13, 2014 Posted June 13, 2014 Such a St. Louis boy. Pork steaks. I'd invite you to our BBQ Sunday except the sushi keeps falling through the grill..... 2
Mark Arbour Posted June 13, 2014 Author Posted June 13, 2014 I'd invite you to our BBQ Sunday except the sushi keeps falling through the grill..... Mix it with the briquettes. No one will notice.
Timothy M. Posted June 14, 2014 Posted June 14, 2014 (edited) It is always amusing in a discussion when because you won't switch your belief to the other person's view, you are the one being unreasonable. True. However, when you don't acknowledge people who make an effort to state when they agree with you or think you're right about something, and you ignore any reasonable arguments they make and rarely seem to accept anyone else's point of view, but prefer to latch on to anything that will let you go on telling them how wrong they are and how only you know what's going on, you shouldn't really be surprised that people consider you unreasonable and annoying. I'm sure you do not act like this on purpose, but it's how the other part in the conversation feels. So I've learnt my lesson and will stay away from any discussion you're involved in from now on. A mature person who sees things clearly, would have sat down calmly with Zach and talked things through. Which is exactly what Will did not do. Where is this clear thinking Will who shared things with Zach? Quite right, I'm waiting to see him emerge too (as I've already said earlier). Over and out. Edited June 14, 2014 by Timothy M. 1
davewri Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 oops! my bad.... in a review of Chapter 30 descendent is the adjective and descendant the noun 1
John Prz Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 I'm the only one that thought about the infamous song from Legally Blonde The Musical when I read about the Earl of Bridgemont? 1
methodwriter85 Posted June 18, 2014 Posted June 18, 2014 From Chapter 30: He pulled out a laptop and set it up on the table, so Stef and I could both see, and showed us some of his latest designs. “There is a definite hip-hop influence,” Stef noted. “But also a Bohemian flavor. This is truly unique.” “Bohemian is giving way to the hipster movement,” he said. I looked at him, confused. I’d never heard of that. Stef didn’t say anything, but it looked like he hadn’t either. “They’re a bunch of tortured young people, trying to be individuals,” he joked. I thought this was funny, because I had to explain what a hipster was to a guy who was 47 in 2013, so about close to Brad's age. He was saying I had to dress like Greenwhich Village bohemian for a part in a play he was directing, and I said, "So like a hipster?" He didn't know what that was, or that Brooklyn is now the "cool" borough. Interesting little generation gap moment there. It's going to be interesting to see how Alex affects these guys. Nice way to have a "crossover", of sorts.
Daddydavek Posted June 18, 2014 Posted June 18, 2014 (edited) For us guys who can remember the nineteen fifties, hipster has a meaning. I'm not sure if it translates well to the last decade however.... see for reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hipster_(1940s_subculture) Edited June 19, 2014 by Daddydavek
Kitt Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 Having been away for a couple of weeks I had a bit of catching up to do. At the risk of starting the argument all over again: It is more logical that if it was a bigger than Barry realized thaten it was because Barry got that feedback after he started to promote Zach, not because he is trying to break up Zach and Will. While that may very well have been the case - aren't these recruitment camps applied to and filled well in advance? The idea that a position suddenly became open does not bother me at all, but that in the three weeks since Barry had become the adviser that it had not been mentioned at all does. If it was so important why was it not pointed out to Zach right away and that he was put on the wait list? It seems to me that three different situations that have separated the boys or attempted to in as many weeks is suspect. As for Wally and Clara's reaction to Zach choosing Europe, would someone explain to me how forcing the boy back to Clairemont for his senior year would be benificial to his potential NFL career? LaSalle = high visibility Clairemont? not so much. I also have to agree that Will's reaction to the Nebraska camp was not domino one. When Barry sent Zach to camp while Will went to Hawaii, he also told the boys that the rest of July would be free for them to go to Europe. The pressure he tried to put on Zach to go even after knowing the boy had committed to Europe with JP and Will was not even it. When Barry, Wally and Clara ganged up on the boy to get him to drop Will is in my opinion domino one. And I do not think we have seen the last one fall yet. As I said in one of my reviews, Zach must feel something like the wishbone at the table after Thanksgiving dinner - everyone pulling him in different directions. Each faction professes to want what is best for the boy, but I am seeing it to be more like each wants their own way. I don't see Wally and Clara's demand he return to Clairemont as being best for his career, I don't see hiding his relationship with Will as good for his emotional well being, although it is necessary at that point. I don't see Barry as being honest about why he wants Zach in Nebraska. I don't see Will's emotional outbursts as helpful at all, and I don't think the kid has a snowball's chance in hell of getting anywhere unless someone manages to actually come down on Zach's side. 3
Mark Arbour Posted June 19, 2014 Author Posted June 19, 2014 I don't see Will's emotional outbursts as helpful at all, and I don't think the kid has a snowball's chance in hell of getting anywhere unless someone manages to actually come down on Zach's side. The takeaway from that was that Will's initial outburst wasn't helpful, but his follow up conversations with Zach were. If ever someone needed to learn restraint and self-control, it's Will. And we're seeing the beginning of that.
Headstall Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 The takeaway from that was that Will's initial outburst wasn't helpful, but his follow up conversations with Zach were. If ever someone needed to learn restraint and self-control, it's Will. And we're seeing the beginning of that. My take on this is that, yes, self control is the ideal but I think that in this case, Will's initial outburst was helpful. It appeared to me that a wakeup call was needed by Zach, and Will provided just that. Zach for all his inexperience, is still a very strong personality and all this drama helped him get there. This allowed them to get to the follow up conversations and consequently help teach them how to better deal with the rough patches that are bound to come up...and continue the process of improving how they relate to each other. I am not "sticking up" for Will...obviously he still has a lot to learn...but in this case it was Barry,Wally and Clara that were trying to rain on their parade..and Will lashed out...and I for one, won't blame him...cheers
Kitt Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 The takeaway from that was that Will's initial outburst wasn't helpful, but his follow up conversations with Zach were. If ever someone needed to learn restraint and self-control, it's Will. And we're seeing the beginning of that. Exactly. My take on this is that, yes, self control is the ideal but I think that in this case, Will's initial outburst was helpful. It appeared to me that a wakeup call was needed by Zach, and Will provided just that. Zach for all his inexperience, is still a very strong personality and all this drama helped him get there. This allowed them to get to the follow up conversations and consequently help teach them how to better deal with the rough patches that are bound to come up...and continue the process of improving how they relate to each other. I am not "sticking up" for Will...obviously he still has a lot to learn...but in this case it was Barry,Wally and Clara that were trying to rain on their parade..and Will lashed out...and I for one, won't blame him...cheers True, sometimes a catalyst is needed. But having been on the receiving end of some rather emotional outbursts similar to some of Will's, while they may have pushed me in the right directions, I could definitely have done with a tad less drama in the process! Don't get me wrong, I think Will was perfectly justified in being upset, and even tossing a bit of a fit. I have just learned over the years that if I can keep things more low key I get where I want to go without a lot of stomach upset! 2
Headstall Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 Exactly. True, sometimes a catalyst is needed. But having been on the receiving end of some rather emotional outbursts similar to some of Will's, while they may have pushed me in the right directions, I could definitely have done with a tad less drama in the process! Don't get me wrong, I think Will was perfectly justified in being upset, and even tossing a bit of a fit. I have just learned over the years that if I can keep things more low key I get where I want to go without a lot of stomach upset! I am in 100 per cent agreement...I would just add that we are a lot older than Will. He is being written as a sixteen year old character and how Mark writes him is very believable...if he always acted beyond his years, he wouldn't be believable...and it took me a long time to figure ome things out in my own life...cheers Kitt 5
Kitt Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 I am in 100 per cent agreement...I would just add that we are a lot older than Will. He is being written as a sixteen year old character and how Mark writes him is very believable...if he always acted beyond his years, he wouldn't be believable...and it took me a long time to figure ome things out in my own life...cheers Kitt Oh yes, very believable. I have known many teens just like him - incredibly mature one minute and totally out of control the next! Makes me quite happy Wings never had such wicked swings when she was a teen! 2
PrivateTim Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 I am in 100 per cent agreement...I would just add that we are a lot older than Will. He is being written as a sixteen year old character and how Mark writes him is very believable...if he always acted beyond his years, he wouldn't be believable...and it took me a long time to figure ome things out in my own life...cheers Kitt The point is that Will is 15 at this time and is portrayed and defended as a 15 year old who is wise well beyond his years and always knows better than the adults around him what is best, not just for himself, but for others as well. Oh yes, very believable. I have known many teens just like him - incredibly mature one minute and totally out of control the next! Makes me quite happy Wings never had such wicked swings when she was a teen! And the point on this one is that most 15 year olds have parents or other adults to moderate these wild swings and reduce the damage the teen can do to themselves. Will has no such restraint on him. He might consider what a JP or Stef has to say, but he has had his moments where he blows them off as well and thinks he knows better than them. He absolutely disregards(ed) anything that Brad, Robbie or his mother might have had to say. 1
Headstall Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 The point is that Will is 15 at this time and is portrayed and defended as a 15 year old who is wise well beyond his years and always knows better than the adults around him what is best, not just for himself, but for others as well. And the point on this one is that most 15 year olds have parents or other adults to moderate these wild swings and reduce the damage the teen can do to themselves. Will has no such restraint on him. He might consider what a JP or Stef has to say, but he has had his moments where he blows them off as well and thinks he knows better than them. He absolutely disregards(ed) anything that Brad, Robbie or his mother might have had to say. On your first point...being an adult, in itself, does not mean that you always know better. I know a lot of stupid adults who constantly make poor decisions that affect themselves and others...and some who absolutely do not know how to behave at the best of times.On the other side of the coin...I know some "kids " that are indeed wise beyond their years...one of my daughters, at 14, was astoundingly wise while her sister, who has achieved wisdom now, took a much longer time to get there. My boys are a different story altogether. the point is that you can't ever fit them into a box and say definitively how they should behave and as a dad I will readily admit that respect is something you have to earn from your kids. We can no longer expect blind obedience from our children...things have changed and they are much more enlightened than the previous generation, and have learned, rightly so, that they deserve fair and respectful treatment. The days of "because I said so " are gone the way of the dinosaur. That said, Will is a very astute, self aware child of this generation who knows when the fairness he deserves is not being employed...and that is the crux...as a 15 year old he is devoloping the skills under Mark's tutelege,to control his volitility but it doesn't mean that at times that that volitility isn't warranted...he IS smarter and more perceptive than a lot of kids his age and that doesn't make it less a fact because you or others hate him. There have been times when all three of his parents didn't deserve his respect, and he managed to navigate through that the best way he could. He didn't fall into the traps a lot of young frustrated kids do...such as booze, drugs, cutting etc. He has come out the other side as a much more balanced teenager and is definitely capable of a respectable level of maturity...he is loving and caring of his family and generally treats people the way he wants to be treated. I don't think you can ask for more than that...and It seems obvious to me that for the most part, his family is very proud of him. I really think you have it wrong with regards to JP and Stef...Will worships both of them and EVERYTHING the say has an impact on him...and he always takes it into account when it pertains to him. This is a new Will that has come out the other side and he exhibits as much restraint as most of the teens I know. I don't expect that this will have any influence on your opinion of Will...after all, you are an adult with all the benefits you feel that entails...especially the right to you own opinion and the right to behave as you see fit. I just wonder when you think Will will deserve those same rights and benefits.When should he no longer "be seen and not heard? "...cheers 2
PrivateTim Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) I won't copy all of that to respond, but we can go back and look at the stories and the discussions of the time. Respect is a two way street. When did 13+ Will ever respect Jeannie? He blew her off and treated her like hired help because Brad let him get away with it. If Will didn't like what Jeannie said he went to Brad to countermand what she had said. That was very bad parenting by Brad and bit him in the ass because it was part of Will's "I know better" attitude or "if it displeases me, I ignore it." Of course there are clueless adults and wise teens, but there are far more wise adults and clueless teens than the other way around. No disrespect, but I am far closer to my teen years than you and remember them well. I was much smarter than Will at that age and knew far better what was good for me and what wasn't than my parents did..... or so I thought. It is only in retrospect from a more mature viewpoint did it occur to me that maybe at 15 I wasn't as smart or well informed as I thought I was. And wait.... Will didn't fall into the traps of frustrated kids such as booze and drugs? (what about the "sex" trap) We are talking about Will, who drinks like a fish, smokes weed like it is no one's business and frequents gay 21 and over clubs, right? Will of the 30 or so sexual partners at 15, half of whom were illegal for him to have sex with? If that is "as much restraint" as most of the teens you know, then I might suggest you know some pretty wild teens? Will does not worship everything JP & Stef have to say no matter how much he might love and respect them. If need be I can go back to the textual references where he blew off or was mad at Stef. JP examples are fewer, but not non-existent. There are also different kinds of respect. There is the "I respect you as a person" which is different from "I respect that you have authority for me". It is possible to not respect your parents because they are so "mean and clueless" compared to all the cool parents your friends have, but recognize that they still have the responsibility for you until you are 18 and that when they give you a midnight curfew on weekends you have to respect that authority or suffer the consequences. Will has never had to suffer consequences for his destructive behaviors. Edited June 20, 2014 by PrivateTim
Headstall Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 Thanks for proving many of my points...however inadvertantly. Jeannie was a terrible mother to Will..she had no clue what to do in Will's teen years...she wasn't there for him much of the time,,,she favored JJ...and her viewpoint was skewed partly due to mental issues...and as you said, Brad fell down in the parenting department in a big way...not to mention Robbie's inadequacies..he was often irrational in his anger at Will and wasn't there for him much of the time...they were all involved in their own drama...and you are blaming Will!!!!! As far as saying that you mean no disrespect...well that doesn't change the fact that it felt disrespectfu. Do you really think that I am some feeble minded old fart that can't remember his teens as well as you?? I would suggest that your more mature viewpoint doesn't provide you the qualities you think you have now...but I will put your ageism aside for now as I recognize that it comes from someone very full of themself (your first post to me said that I suffered from Stockholm Syndrome...so all else I will take with a grain of salt. I do in fact remember my teens in exquisite detail, and I as well have raised four wonderful children who were also teenagers at one time...and my home was an open house for their multitude of friends. AS far as Will falling into traps...yeah, he was way nore sexually active than I thought appropriate...he smokes pot no more than his dad or JP or the rest...these were his role models...and the sex with older guys falls more on the older guys as to legality...just look what was going on around him...he was acting out for sure, but he was also doing what he was witnessing..and once out ,you can't put the sex genie back in the bottle.Again, suspect parenting put him on this path. What I put forth was that he did not fall into a lot of the destructive traps in that he doesn't have a drinking problem,nor a drug problem,nor is he self destuctive...he is loving and caring and loyal and supportive and very family oriented...but you don't or won't get that Private Tim...At your young age of 37, can your mature viewpoint not let you get past the need to hate...or the need to be right? And, once again, I feel respect has to be earned...I don't buy in to what you think Will owed his parents till some arbitrary age...he is emancipated so lets stop living in the past and accept the situation for what it is now. There is a lot to be gained by just letting it go. 1
B1ue Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 he smokes pot no more than his dad or JP or the rest...these were his role models I'm going to stay out of this for the most part, except to also put in that I don't see Will as mature as the narrative insists I believe (a change from my initial stance when Will started to become a major character), but I will comment on this aspect. I hate that Will smokes pot. I, in fact, hate it that Brad and JP indulge in the habit as well. This has nothing to do with a rational analysis of benefits and pitfalls of smoking, and entirely to do with my own experiences with people that smoked it, including my immediate family members (I'm pretty much the only person I know personally that has never smoked). Despite my distaste, I don't count it against Will. Even if he had never sought emancipation, and was just as agreeable on the surface as JJ, he would probably still smoke just as much, because all of his potential guardians and role models have no problem with it. While in reality, I think it would be a useful point to debate someone's character, in the context of this story it's pretty silly. Smoking pot is about as risqué, and defiant, as breathing. 2
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