Streak

[Timothy M.]

16. You get your DL at 16 in CA. Some states in the U.S. are as young as 14 years old.

 

Oh, right. Thanks. Over here you have to be eighteen, so it's always weird for me to read about high school kids driving a car. I end up thinking of them as adults - or eighteen at least. And then I get confused that they can't drink beer or go to a bar, lol.

[Timothy M.]

In my review to the most recent chapter (24) I should have said I love it when JP, Will and Wade are a team and point out how wrong other members of the family are. In this case it's buying shares in companies which promote and profit from war, but it doesn't matter what the cause is. They make an awesome team: JP provides the unassailable academic reasons, Wade the stoic morality and sense of right and wrong, and Will does the high-handed explosive bitch-slapping with a righteous passion. Wonderful  

[methodwriter85]

Remember that JJ wants Alex. He's totally into him, and he's latched onto him like a thirsty man lunges for a glass of water. JJ really doesn't want to know the details of Alex's tryst, and he really doesn't want to hear the excuses about why Alex didn't call him. He wants Alex to pay attention to him. He wants to be the center of Alex's world.

 

 

I think that goes back to when JJ said to Will that the coach may have sex with the other boys, but that the coach liked him best. I think as long as JJ knows he's the "legitimate" one, and the whore is just a whore, he's okay.

 

 

 I think that the Iraq War was one of the more shameful episodes in our history, not because it was worse than some of our other incursions, but because we should have known better. This is one aspect of the story where I'm going to have to work hard to even trot out the opposing opinion. 

 

It really depresses me to think about how the United States is about to go on a decade-long boondoogle that will bankrupt the country while making certain defense contractors rich, and I'm glad you are finally getting chance to vent about the direction the country took through the characters of his fictional series CAP.

 

I actually participated in a student walk-out to protest the Iraq War in early March of 2003, just before the war broke out. We walked out "symbolically" at 9:11 a.m., which was my French class. I can still hear us chanting "Drop Bush, Not Bombs!" and "To Hell With This Oil War Shit!" I was willing to take the detention I knew I was getting for it, but after lunch, our dean came out and threatened all of us with expulsion if we didn't go back to class.

 

The irony of it all was that gasoline shot way up after Iraq, hitting by 2005 what was an incredible 2 dollars per gallon.

[GLH]

The irony of it all was that gasoline shot way up after Iraq, hitting by 2005 what was an incredible 2 dollars per gallon.

 

$2/gallon gas? 2005??? If memory serves me correctly, gas hit $3/gallon long before 2005, because I distinctly remember gas blasting past $3/gallon the day Katrina hit N'Awlins.

[PrivateTim]

$2/gallon gas? 2005??? If memory serves me correctly, gas hit $3/gallon long before 2005, because I distinctly remember gas blasting past $3/gallon the day Katrina hit N'Awlins.

 

Here are the charts from Gas Buddy. You can filter by cities. From my memory, gas hit $3 because of Katrina and closing the refineries in the Gulf Coast.

 

http://www.GasBuddy.com/gb_retail_price_chart.aspx?city1=USA%20Average&city2=NewOrleans&city3=LosAngeles&crude=n&tme=132&units=us

[methodwriter85]

Hmm, interesting. I actually came across an old school newspaper from spring 2005 that bitched about rising gas prices, showing the gas to be a whooping $2.12 a gallon. I just must have not been paying attention to gas prices that much, because I wasn't driving in the fall of 2005- I lived on campus at a small liberal arts school in Delaware. I do remember that summer I knew people who were bitching about gas prices creeping up closer to something like $2.50.

 

The big one I remember very well was the summer of 2008, when gas prices hit 4 dollars a gallon. I was driving a lot that summer.

 

 

I loved JJ's comparison between himself and Will, especially "No way I was sleeping with the help." Thank you for another excellent chapter!

 

 

Yeah, I loved that one. It was very in character- he wants people with good breeding, or at least appear that way. I can see his type being, when he's older, an Anderson Cooper or Bennedict Cumberbatch type. He's just not going for the meathead blue-collar jock type.

Edited November 18, 2014 by methodwriter85

[mmike1969]

You have in your possession a 10 year old school newspaper?

 

You have issues method.

[Daddydavek]

Or maybe he is just a born archivist......

[GLH]

Here are the charts from Gas Buddy. You can filter by cities. From my memory, gas hit $3 because of Katrina and closing the refineries in the Gulf Coast.

I don't know about elsewhere, but I distinctly recall gas at well over $3/gallon during Katrina. There was another instance in the same time frame where gas went up over 50¢/gallon in the span of two or three days, the oil companies laughing all the way to the bank. Our esteemed AG subsequently prosecuted quite a number of distributors for price gouging as a result. $3.08 and $3.43 were prices that come immediately to mind...

[Mark Arbour]

You have in your possession a 10 year old school newspaper?

 

You have issues method.

 

 

Or maybe he is just a born archivist......

 

No.  He has issues. 

[Timothy M.]

Unless Stef and Brad come to their senses before Thanksgiving, they will have the unpleasant experience of facing the contempt and censure of the WWJ trio of anti-war-profit campaigners.   serves them right 

 

Edit to quote Mark:

 

I think that beyond the politics of the thing, the real issue here is that Brad and Stef are ignoring what a big deal this is to JP.

 

Yes, I saw your comment on Gary's ch 24 review and it immediately struck me as a core matter. Stef is effectively saying that making a profit is more important to him than his husband's peace of mind. It frightens me to think what this could lead to. I've always liked JP and Stef as a couple, and I would hate to see them split up over this.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Timothy M.

[mmike1969]

When GW has handed the Presidency, the first thing I did was to go over my financials with my broker and bank. Needless to say, even back in 2000, they were all going for oil and defense stocks.

 

Those who did buy into the paranoid world of GW made off like bandits. Those who did not, made modest, if little, returns over the next few years.

 

Everyone was telling me to sell what I had left in tech and go oil and defense. I said no to most defense. I did start buying Exxon and I was continuing to buy GE.

 

So I am not going to be rich like the Family here in this story. But I can at least go to sleep knowing full well my Apple stock I bought in 1987 would at least pay off my final debts and maybe the city where I live can throw a parade in my honor when I am dead. (Just kidding, I am having the money buried with me)

 

tldr: the whole point of a diversified portfolio is to mange risk and prevent a calamity when an entire sector collapses.

 

Ex: 2008 banks and real estate collapse.

 

You can't blame Stef or Brad for buying into defense or oil services. And with the poor economy for the next 8 years under Shrub, you remove defense and oil, your Trusts are going to have far less value in them unless the Family decides to spend less $$$. (I don't see that happening).

[chrisg02]

Following up, in a way, mmike's point: Can someone spell out what exactly is at the root of this moral disagreement between JP (& Will) and Stef (& Brad) about investment in industries that supply military equipment?

 

With no need to express a personal view, I could understand the nature of their issue if they have a general antipathy against munitions-related industries -- but that's not what the story-line suggests, is it? (Or if it is, then what about Triton, and how didn't they start pressing Stef & Brad to stop that already years ago?)

 

Is it their view that the (horrible) political decision to move towards war, in itself already puts moral disgrace on to the industries that supply the equipment-needs of the military? Surely that can't be it, just think what would happen if a company like Triton proposed to shut down a factory or two, just to hinder procurement of equipment for the military, and aiming to make it harder for the politicians to implement their terrible decision. There would not only be government penalties, but also public fury, for putting the soldiers' lives at even bigger risk. It would be on a different level than politics.

 

But then what else has happened (so far as the story-characters know or suspect) to make it so that the folly and disgrace of the politicians is shared by (some of?) the industrialists?

 

It would make sense if the background (so far unspoken) is that the characters know or suspect that some of the industrial people and their political friends are fomenting war for private gain. Meaning that national security alone, and/or security of supply of nationally vital goods, would not have been enough in themselves to make the politicians decide for war, and meaning that -- if not for the private gain -- the war would not be happening?

 

But in that case, how do the story-characters think they know this? (I'm not asking for real-world proof, of course -- just to know the background that explains the story-line.)

　

[Mark Arbour]

Following up, in a way, mmike's point: Can someone spell out what exactly is at the root of this moral disagreement between JP (& Will) and Stef (& Brad) about investment in industries that supply military equipment?

 

With no need to express a personal view, I could understand the nature of their issue if they have a general antipathy against munitions-related industries -- but that's not what the story-line suggests, is it? (Or if it is, then what about Triton, and how didn't they start pressing Stef & Brad to stop that already years ago?)

 

Is it their view that the (horrible) political decision to move towards war, in itself already puts moral disgrace on to the industries that supply the equipment-needs of the military? Surely that can't be it, just think what would happen if a company like Triton proposed to shut down a factory or two, just to hinder procurement of equipment for the military, and aiming to make it harder for the politicians to implement their terrible decision. There would not only be government penalties, but also public fury, for putting the soldiers' lives at even bigger risk. It would be on a different level than politics.

 

But then what else has happened (so far as the story-characters know or suspect) to make it so that the folly and disgrace of the politicians is shared by (some of?) the industrialists?

 

It would make sense if the background (so far unspoken) is that the characters know or suspect that some of the industrial people and their political friends are fomenting war for private gain. Meaning that national security alone, and/or security of supply of nationally vital goods, would not have been enough in themselves to make the politicians decide for war, and meaning that -- if not for the private gain -- the war would not be happening?

 

But in that case, how do the story-characters think they know this? (I'm not asking for real-world proof, of course -- just to know the background that explains the story-line.)

　

 

There are multiple factors that are influencing JP's issues, but a general antipathy to defense contractors is not one of them. 

 

I think the root of his issue can be traced back to Eisenhower, who warned of the dangers of the military-industrial complex.  It is also important to put it in the context of his past history, specifically with Vietnam, where he sees the same forces coalescing.  What JP is seeing is that some of these big players are joining in the cry for war, of which they will be big winners.  In his mind, if these companies actively encourage an invasion of Iraq, they are doing it for their own benefit, and it makes them complicit.  And if you are a shareholder and participate in those rewards, you are also complicit.  JP can write off Triton as a venture not motivated by that cause, but when Stef and Brad begin bulking up on defense and oil company stocks, JP sees that as them trying to cash in on the upcoming war.  It is that which he finds so abhorrent. 

 

Some would view it (as mmike pointed out) as a legitimate business opportunity, and focus on diversifying their investment portfolios.  There are two problems with this strategy as it pertains to this family.  First of all, with Triton, they're already heavily invested in the defense sector.  Second, as Will pointed out, this is not a family that needs the money.  It's not like their retirement incomes are going to be reduced because they don't jump into this investment sector. 

 

But of all of these issues, the most important one that must be plaguing JP is that despite the fact that he's explained how badly this issue bothers him, Stef and Brad have viewed the investment opportunity to be more important.  They picked making money over him, even though neither one of them really needs it.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Mark Arbour

[methodwriter85]

Again though, it's like with Will and JP....what exactly do they expect to happen with Triton? Brad and Stefan might not need the money, but in order to keep Triton running and to keep Claremont's renaissance going full-swing, it's almost a given that Triton will need to get itself involved in the Iraq War. Lots of people are going to depend on the new jobs being created, and the new wealth that's going towards the town as a result of the company.

 

Which could be an interesting quandary- Claremont needs this defense contract company to succeed in order to not slide back into being a rustbelt town, but on the other side, they'll be sending their young sons and daughter off to fight in a war that a lot of people do not believe in. I mean, it's really not just Haliburton that profits from this war- DuPont's Kevlar vests probably kept that company going as well during the war. And now we've got this fictional company in CAP that has been created and located to JP's beloved hometown, and will need to invest in this war to keep itself going.

 

I do think doing a story about the Iraq War is going to be challenging for Mark, because it's a big, sprawling story that spreads out over 11/12 years- Mark would have to pick a focus and stay there, but even then, as the decade goes on, the Iraq War stays in the background.

[Mark Arbour]

Again though, it's like with Will and JP....what exactly do they expect to happen with Triton? Brad and Stefan might not need the money, but in order to keep Triton running and to keep Claremont's renaissance going full-swing, it's almost a given that Triton will need to get itself involved in the Iraq War. Lots of people are going to depend on the new jobs being created, and the new wealth that's going towards the town as a result of the company.

 

Which could be an interesting quandary- Claremont needs this defense contract company to succeed in order to not slide back into being a rustbelt town, but on the other side, they'll be sending their young sons and daughter off to fight in a war that a lot of people do not believe in. I mean, it's really not just Haliburton that profits from this war- DuPont's Kevlar vests probably kept that company going as well during the war. And now we've got this fictional company in CAP that has been created and located to JP's beloved hometown, and will need to invest in this war to keep itself going.

 

I do think doing a story about the Iraq War is going to be challenging for Mark, because it's a big, sprawling story that spreads out over 11/12 years- Mark would have to pick a focus and stay there, but even then, as the decade goes on, the Iraq War stays in the background.

 

The issue is not the position in Triton, it was that Stef and Brad were bulking up on defense/oil companies (increasing their positions) in anticipation of a war.  It may not look immoral to others, but within the family, it looks as if they're trying to cash in on a war. 

[Mark Arbour]

I've just posted a notice about politics in posts.  I'll include the text here as an FYI: 

 

In the past, political discussion here at GA has often been contentious and less than productive, and that ultimately caused GA to shut down the Soap Box and ban political discourse from this site. 

 

As we move into more current politics with Streak, it's probably that discussions about the story will become political.  I think that's important to the story and to the topic.  It's always been that way for CAP, but those issues were more remote, and time had perhaps dulled our passionate arguments.  That isn't true of the turf we're now breaking into. 

 

I will amend this post as rules change or are clarified by the Admins, but in the meantime, I'm going to approach things in the following manner: 

 

1.  When political discussions ensue, those discussions must relate to the storyline.  Broad ranging diatribes aren't appropriate.

 

2.  The posts on these topics should be designed to be informative and not argumentative (which is a nice way of saying 'don't be a dick'). 

 

3.  If you post something with political content that is off-topic, it is likely that I will simply delete it. 

 

4.  While site staff do allow me to moderate my forum and determine the suitability to discuss politics in relation to CAP plot events, please remember that is not allowed elsewhere on the forums.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Mark Arbour

[B1ue]

Warning, I am about to sail this thread into the murky waters of psychological speculation of made up people. Please correct me if I wander off course.

 

Stef and Brad might not actually need the money, but how much credibility would they stand to lose if they didn't make that shift? I totally understand JP's position on this, but he's not exactly rational or dispassionate on the subject. I don't know that there is a middle ground for him, not on this topic. Its too central to his life's work, just as spotting trends and riding them to their crests is Stef's life's work. JP grew up relatively affluent, so he really doesn't see money or influence as very important. Some affluent do of course, but JP clearly doesn't, and since he's never been without it, it's never been something he thinks about. Does a mermaid think about water? Stef on the other hand had a different background, and thinks about that water all day every day to make sure that background is never able to touch him again.

 

Further, JP wants Vietnam to have meant something. For the deaths of Andre and everyone to have had at least had the affect of turning us off pitched warfare forever. And this war on terror is proving that we apparently had forgotten that lesson (note: I am not actually making a claim here, just guessing as to how JP would see this). JP is going to hate with every fiber of his being anything and everything associated with this war, because this war is undermining and upending everything he's worked towards.

 

As an aside, I think Stef and Brad investing in defense companies made them into convenient targets for now, but he's not going to be satisfied with being pissed off at them for long. Which perks my interest. Within the stories, when JP has gone off the rails, he's GONE OFF THE RAILS. We're talking about someone that drove another person to suicide over an office. I'm not certain how far he'll go for something like this.

[Kitt]

I think the whole thing becomes a matter of perspective.

 

As an outsider looking in, investing in oil and the like, with the intent of making a profit, is simply business. Granted the more anti-war factions would call it immoral, but for most it is just the way things work.

 

JP has a strong conviction on such matters. To him things look differently than they would to me when it comes time to sit down with my financial adviser and go over how my investments are doing.

 

To JP,having already been involved in Triton, maintaining that company and in the end making a profit due to the upcoming military actions is one thing. For his family members to disregard his opinions completely and invest as heavily as it appears Brad and Stef have must come across to JP as a failure on his part. He raised Brad, and met Stef when he was a 16 yr old rent boy. He had a hand in forming Stef's adult psyche as well. For them to be making decisions that are a polar opposite to what he purported as they were growing up has to feel like he failed as a parent.

 

Please note, I have tried not to insert my personal views on the impending war, or pass any moral judgement on either side of this. I am simply stating I can see how the younger men would consider this a business opportunity they could not pass up, and how JP would see it as a betrayal and feel he had failed in raising them.

[Bucket1]

I think the whole thing becomes a matter of perspective.

 

As an outsider looking in, investing in oil and the like, with the intent of making a profit, is simply business. Granted the more anti-war factions would call it immoral, but for most it is just the way things work.

 

JP has a strong conviction on such matters. To him things look differently than they would to me when it comes time to sit down with my financial adviser and go over how my investments are doing.

 

To JP,having already been involved in Triton, maintaining that company and in the end making a profit due to the upcoming military actions is one thing. For his family members to disregard his opinions completely and invest as heavily as it appears Brad and Stef have must come across to JP as a failure on his part. He raised Brad, and met Stef when he was a 16 yr old rent boy. He had a hand in forming Stef's adult psyche as well. For them to be making decisions that are a polar opposite to what he purported as they were growing up has to feel like he failed as a parent.

 

Please note, I have tried not to insert my personal views on the impending war, or pass any moral judgement on either side of this. I am simply stating I can see how the younger men would consider this a business opportunity they could not pass up, and how JP would see it as a betrayal and feel he had failed in raising them.

 

I think this post has hit the nail on the head. This is not really about the impending war at all. This is about a set of values that JP holds dearly and the fact that Brad and Stef seem to be running in the opposite direction.

[Daddydavek]

I agree with most of what Kitt says.  The only exception is that Will made the point, when is enough, enough?

 

Turning to JJ, I am stunned that there has not been more mention of his dealing with the flashback of his forced encounter by the coach during his anal sex with Alex.  For all his high maintenance, JJ seemed to work through that moment exceptionally well.   While I realize he had some significant counseling, that he handled as well as he did, speaks of some real strength of character as well.  Way to go JJ!

 

Some have spoken of their disappointment in Wade, but I really see Mark's point.  This is the Gay Games and they are not an old settled couple in their thirties, but still young and raunchy in their early twenties and Wade realized there would be temptation that almost no actively sexual gay man could refuse.....

[impunity]

Turning to JJ, I am stunned that there has not been more mention of his dealing with the flashback of his forced encounter by the coach during his anal sex with Alex. For all his high maintenance, JJ seemed to work through that moment exceptionally well. While I realize he had some significant counseling, that he handled as well as he did, speaks of some real strength of character as well. Way to go JJ!

 

I agree, and I also think that Alex's response to JJ's revelation was pretty crappy. I know JJ really wants Alex. I just hope he eventually comes to the realization that Alex is not great boyfriend material and that he can do a lot better.

[Mark Arbour]

These last five posts are the reason that I love having a forum.  Excellent points, and well said.

[Henson]

An interesting nuance - what, exactly, does Triton manufacture, and how directly does it stand to profit from anything other than a general re-investment in the defense sector after the drawdown of the 1990's?

 

More to the point, what projects is Triton involved in, and is it lobbying for war?

 

Many other companies stand to make a LOT, and they are most definitely lobbying congress to go to war - a fact little realized at the time, but obvious when you look at the media coverage and the way congress voted.  That hubris led to further nonsense like the ongoing F-35 saga and Lockheed Martin's (GOD I hate that company!) ongoing, intentional malfeasance in any number of projects they are involved in.  Lockheed in particular has a business model of selling flawed products to the government and then charging a premium to clean up their own messes.  I see it in my own sector (which interestingly is right where Triton sits, in subsurface warfare) and in every other government contract that company touches.

 

Not all defense contractors are equal.  Triton seems relatively politically inactive, and is focused on submarine warfare, not an area that grew as a result of the Iraq invasion.  Halliburton and LMCO, on the other hand, are a whole different story.  I think it's entirely fair to look beneath the hood of a company when your family is making a multi-million (or even billion) dollar investment in their product and, more importantly, their philosophy and business practices.  It is not unreasonable for the family to ask, "What behavior are we really funding here - and should we?"

[Northerner]

This latest development made me think about the implications of Will being disturbed by the mercenary attitude of his boyfriend, Wade finally being a little evil and possessive - I like it! The good kid with flawed parents finally descending into the world of less than perfect people; Will could end up being used by Zach... There are storm clouds on the horizon. Then again, Zach - I wonder when and if one of the gay Hayes boys will ever find true happiness? It feels like their lot is to suffer under their own errors.

 

As for Alec and JJ, I read it like Alec could be perfect for JJ, at least until he grows out of the shadow of Will. I have a feeling that some of JJ's motivations and goals are far more complex than those of Will, at least that's a tangent the story could go into.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Northerner