impunity Posted December 19, 2014 Posted December 19, 2014 (edited) For pure entertainment value, it doesn't get much better than a good old fashioned bible thumping. Edited December 19, 2014 by impunity 2
B1ue Posted December 19, 2014 Posted December 19, 2014 (edited) Seriously? That was the best his parents could do? I could have run rings around someone like that at 16, and I'm the good kid. My sisters would have had him for breakfast. I'm amazed Zach kept from laughing at him, although I can see he came close a couple times. Edited December 19, 2014 by B1ue 2
Headstall Posted December 19, 2014 Posted December 19, 2014 Seriously? That was the best his parents could do? I could have run rings around someone like that at 16, and I'm the good kid. My sisters would have had him for breakfast. I'm amazed Zach kept from laughing at him, although I can see he came close a couple times. Zach barely controlled himself...well actually he failed at controlling himself...I guess he is finding it is not easy being a pious, upstanding, religious zealot LOL. By the way, I think Zach is 17...cheers...G 1
methodwriter85 Posted December 19, 2014 Posted December 19, 2014 (edited) Zach is 17, and probably counting down the days to his 18th birthday on June 12th, 2003. I wonder how much awful Christian rock music Zach is probably making himself listen to in front of his schoolmates. I also wonder if he's wearing one of those "What Would Jesus Do?" bracelets. I remember those being pretty popular with the Uber-Christian crowd back then. Edited December 19, 2014 by methodwriter85 2
impunity Posted December 21, 2014 Posted December 21, 2014 So, Thomas Hartford...who is he? And just how exciting is this dinner going to be? 1
PrivateTim Posted December 21, 2014 Posted December 21, 2014 Zach is 17, and probably counting down the days to his 18th birthday on June 12th, 2003. I wonder how much awful Christian rock music Zach is probably making himself listen to in front of his schoolmates. I also wonder if he's wearing one of those "What Would Jesus Do?" bracelets. I remember those being pretty popular with the Uber-Christian crowd back then. I doubt Zach is listening to Christian rock music or wearing bands or anything. When you go to a Catholic boys school you don't need to put on airs of piety. There are many committed Christians around you. it is not like being in a public school where sometimes the evangelicals have to circle the wagons. I also don't think Thomas Hartford is anyone. I am sure he was just one of the people that ran in the G(B)ay Area crowd back in the day. 2
Kitt Posted December 22, 2014 Posted December 22, 2014 (edited) Isn't Thomas Hartford the kid from Book 1 that eventually became a TA for JP? At first the only Thomas Hartford I could think of was the Penn State kid who died after falling from an upper window at a frat party, but Never sent me back to reading! Edited December 22, 2014 by Kitt 5
Mark Arbour Posted December 22, 2014 Author Posted December 22, 2014 Isn't Thomas Hartford the kid from Book 1 that eventually became a TA for JP? At first the only Thomas Hartford I could think of was the Penn State kid who died after falling from an upper window at a frat party, but Never sent me back to reading! He's the one. Had a relationship with JP and with Stefan. 3
impunity Posted December 22, 2014 Posted December 22, 2014 I guess Will hasn't yet learned that one doesn't invite a family member's (let alone two family members') ex-lover to dinner without prior warning. Or maybe he does know and he's just being Will. 5
mmike1969 Posted December 22, 2014 Posted December 22, 2014 He's the one. Had a relationship with JP and with Stefan. For all those who want a refresher, We first see him at the end of chapter 30/Book 1 of CAP. 2
Popular Post GLH Posted December 25, 2014 Popular Post Posted December 25, 2014 Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas to each and every one of you and wishing y'all much health, happiness and prosperity to you and yours in the coming year! 7
davewri Posted December 26, 2014 Posted December 26, 2014 Always looking for clues.........Will the dentist in Zach's past show up in the visit to Claremont?
Bucket1 Posted December 28, 2014 Posted December 28, 2014 In reviews Mark writes Gary, I think you picked up on something important, and that is that Zach is viewing his past in a relatively healthy way. He's looking at what he did, and realizes where he was a dick. I think the contrast between 15-year-old Zach and 17-year-old Zach is stunning; I'll bet he gets that. I know Will does. I couldn't agree more - 15 vs 17 is a lifetime apart (well for some of us). Zach is growing up, he has goals, he has a vision for his future. And he is now mature enough to look back at some of his mistakes. Will has played a part in that (sorry Will-haters) and Zach and Frank deserve some credit too. In an odd way I think Wally deserves some too - at least Zach has a very clear view of where he doesn't want to be. 4
Kitt Posted December 28, 2014 Posted December 28, 2014 Knowing where you DON'T want to go in life can be as important as knowing where you do. 3
Daddydavek Posted December 28, 2014 Posted December 28, 2014 And I think it's important to realize and expect kids to make some major mistakes. It is part of growing up and some lessons just are not really learned except from ones own mistakes.....No matter how much parents preach. 5
methodwriter85 Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 I like that JJ is dipping is wick finally, I just wish it had been Alistair. I liked that character and thought/think he'd be good for either Will or JJ. If Alistair turns out to be gay he is not someone who was ever going to hide it. I liked that character...I think he would have been good for Will; not so sure about JJ. Unfortunately it just doesn't make that much sense for either him or Ryan (who I liked) to show up since they're probably both busy being juniors at Harvard-Westlake while Will's going to school in Palo Alto and JJ's operating out of Boston now. JJ managed to hold on to his virginity until he was almost 17. That feels like a record for this current CAP generation, LOL. It's interesting to see how JJ makes actual skating history "diverge" a bit, as Parker Pennington was the winner of the real 2003 Eastern Sectionals. I like how Mark's blending in the real skaters with our fictional ones. I really, really, really hope we see the 2003 U.S. Nationals, because that was known as the '"Disaster" championship where Johnny Weir messed up royally and other male skaters followed. JJ's reaction to Johnny Weir would be priceless. Mark's already set up them hating each other. 3
Bucket1 Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 Oops I forgot to mention something in my review - no one has really told Zach the worst thing about parents. Once he gets over that shocking truth he might be in a better place to deal with Wally and Clara's "madness". The worst thing about parents? They are just average ordinary people with faults like the rest of us... 3
B1ue Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 I'm pretty sure Zach is well aware his parents have faults and limits. The problem is that his parents aren't prepared to admit that in front of him. 2
Bucket1 Posted January 1, 2015 Posted January 1, 2015 I'm pretty sure Zach is well aware his parents have faults and limits. The problem is that his parents aren't prepared to admit that in front of him. He knows they have faults - faults that cause him significant pain. The problem for Zach is he hasn't accepted that that is who they are - he is holding them to a higher standard, he is deeply hurt by their failings. A perfectly natural reaction but it makes it easier to deal with it when you accept that your parents are only human. 1
Kitt Posted January 1, 2015 Posted January 1, 2015 It is never easy to accept that nothing you ever do will please a parent. 3
Timothy M. Posted January 1, 2015 Posted January 1, 2015 he hasn't accepted that that is who they are - he is holding them to a higher standard it's a standard that Frank (and Isobel) has no problem achieving and Wally's behaviour in relation to the football thing is way beyond anything acceptable. I think Zach could deal with everything else with very little problem. And if you recall, Frank called Wally on this mátter a while ago, and even Gathan was pissed on Zach's behalf. Plus the counselor immediately recognised it as a huge problem. Zach should not have to concede on this matter - anything else is up for discussion and negotiation, but Wally (and Clara) has to admit he has been doing this unfair thing to his son, and promise to change. Otherwise, Zach should write them off. And the sad thing is I can remember when we met Wally and Clara and admired them for taking in Gathan and Ella and doing better with their kids than most Hayes couples, in spite of not being wealthy or 'smart'. 3
Bucket1 Posted January 1, 2015 Posted January 1, 2015 it's a standard that Frank (and Isobel) has no problem achieving and Wally's behaviour in relation to the football thing is way beyond anything acceptable. I think Zach could deal with everything else with very little problem. And if you recall, Frank called Wally on this mátter a while ago, and even Gathan was pissed on Zach's behalf. Plus the counselor immediately recognised it as a huge problem. Zach should not have to concede on this matter - anything else is up for discussion and negotiation, but Wally (and Clara) has to admit he has been doing this unfair thing to his son, and promise to change. Otherwise, Zach should write them off. And the sad thing is I can remember when we met Wally and Clara and admired them for taking in Gathan and Ella and doing better with their kids than most Hayes couples, in spite of not being wealthy or 'smart'. I agree absolutely and I think it makes it harder for Zach to come to terms with the fact that Wally is tragically flawed when he has such good examples else where. I don't think that Zach should concede on this but he might need to recognise that Wally isn't able to admit he has a problem dealing with Zach and that Clara will agree with Wally even when it is against the interests of her child. On the other hand, this counsellor seems to know his stuff - he may be able to work the same magic on Wally that was successful on Zach. I will keep my fingers crossed for the magic of the counsellor but it may be better for Zach to have some distance at this time. ("Writing them off" seems so permanent) It is never easy to accept that nothing you ever do will please a parent. The balance to this is usually grandparents who spoil the grandkids rotten 2
PrivateTim Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) Zach should write them off. And the sad thing is I can remember when we met Wally and Clara and admired them for taking in Gathan and Ella and doing better with their kids than most Hayes couples, in spite of not being wealthy or 'smart'. I can remember that for most of the years of this story Zach has been a shithead. The author has chosen to highlight Wally's blindspot on Zach's football prowess, but Zach was not an endearing character when we first met him and still isn't a candidate for citizen of the year. He is the second or third most self centered character in the story. If Will had written off Zach and kicked him out of his room after Robbie's memorial instead of having sex with him Streak would have been a paragraph, not a story. Despite some things he has done okay, like keep his grades for the last year, Zach has several years of screw-ups to live down. Edited January 2, 2015 by PrivateTim 2
Headstall Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 The thing about a lot of young people, especially gifted athletes like JJ and Zach, is that they often think it is all about them. They have success and get accolades heaped upon them and there is a tendency for it to sometimes go to their heads. This, I think has been the case with both of these characters. JJ appears to get more family support for his success than Zach does for his. I have never heard of any family member criticizing JJ's skating performances. Wally's inability to give Zach credit for his talent, hard work and success is a huge issue for Zach to deal with so he has had to go elsewhere for support. He gets that now from Frank and Will and Will's family. By Zach's own admission, he has been an asshole...but at the age of 17, I can see him changing. Just like Alex appears to have a positive effect on JJ, I think Will has a positive effect on Zach. Some kids are always good kids...some kids start out good and end up bad...some kids start out bad and end up good...the possibilities are endless. I wouldn't nominate either JJ or Zach for sainthood but I also wouldn't write them off for past behaviors...at least not at their young ages. I like that JJ is starting to have a more balanced life...and I like that Zach appears to be assessing his past behaviors and considering more of how he treats people...and I personally think it has a lot to do with support, as well as normal maturing. Just saying... 3
Bucket1 Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 I can remember that for most of the years of this story Zach has been a shithead. The author has chosen to highlight Wally's blindspot on Zach's football prowess, but Zach was not an endearing character when we first met him and still isn't a candidate for citizen of the year. He is the second or third most self centered character in the story. Only second or third? You don't say that sort of thing to people with competitive streaks! 3
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