SEX!

[FreeThinker]

So, what do you think about sex?

 

I like it.

 

But...

 

When I first started perusing stories on the Internet, sometime during the previous century before Netscape was invented and all we had to go to were newsgroups such as alt.sex.stories.gay, almost all the stories I found, or were looking for, were primarily sexual in nature. There were a few exceptions, stories that had sex in them, but also had a strong plot and good characters, (Double Trouble and Hey, Dude come to mind, which I found in 1994-1995, the ultimate classics, written before Comicality gave us his wonderful work). But, to be honest, when I first came to the internet, SEX was what I was looking for. If I wanted Literature, well I lived in Austin Texas at the time and I had every outlet you could dream of for Literature.

 

But, as the years went by and the gay genre on the internet evolved and not only the variety of stories increased but the venues for finding them proliferated, some truly excellent authors emerged and, today, one can find wonderful gay stories with or without sex, in a variety of places.

 

My question is this to the authors and readers on this board.

 

Is sex really necessary?

 

I know this may seem like a silly question, but I am wondering. The only place I post stories is Nifty because it seems to be the place that EVERYONE goes to, (and because its free and I'm poor). When I posted my very first story two years ago, (a dreadful piece of weirdness that will go unnamed because I don't want anyone to read it or to associate it with what I am doing now), my goal was to write a sexual story that was more than a sexual story. I wanted it to have a good plot, good characters and lots of love.

 

However, the email I received, and I got a lot of it, was asking me to rely less on sex and focus more on the story. In my later stories, (Canterbury, Moon in Your Eyes, Centennial Park), I have done that. I get a lot of supportive email, but there is a paradox.

 

People tell me they want more story than sex. But, every time I post a chapter with sex, it gets 2-3 times the response of a non-sexual chapter.

 

Would someone like to explain this to me?

 

Has anyone else experienced this?

[Myr]

Well... before Fanfiction banned NC-17 stories, I had a bunch posted along with my main plot story, HP and the PoD. There was a handy enhanced stat funtion for premium members that shows hits. I was getting a ton of reviews for PoD, but NONE for the other stories... but people were reading the all sex story at a slightly faster pace than PoD.

 

The emails I get for PoD these days, (the ones that aren't demanding the next chapter RIGHT NOW), are contradictory... They want more sex and want less sex.

 

Personly, these days, I rather have a plot filled story with hints of sex instead of a sex filled story with hints of plot.

[miguelsanchez55]

Hi All,

I to try to keep the sex down to a minimum. My second story was amitedly away from that. I had been asked to add more sex to my next story, after Julio, but the response was less than what I wanted. The Day My Life Began started out as did Julio, with only 2 or 3 scenes of sex in the story. Then after much pushing, Book 2 took a different turn. I'm contemplating doing some re-writing on the story for the site here. It is a great story, I think, but can be better with a little less sex.

 

There are storys out there with little or no sex that in my opinion are better than reading one that's like an X-rated movie with sex in every other paragraph. A good example of that is In Time, by Pyro. I know ther are many others out there but this one stands out in my mind the best.

 

 

Take care all and much love

Mike :sword:

[EricCase]

My stuff used to have lots of sex, but then I got really weird and started seeing my characters as more like people and didn't like intruding on their privacy LOL

 

but seriously, most of the stories I wrote that people liked the most seemed to have the least actual sex, and the most story. The one story I DID write that had NO sex though most people never even read lol so I dunno I think people tend to like a little bit. For myself I love a story that has people who love each other but is written with enough style that you never actually read about them "doing it" but have no impression of a lack of attachment between the characters. BUT lotsa people like sex so having a flavor of it, at least through some eroticism (i.e. touching/feeling caressing LMBO) is usually the best way to have more readers enjoy the piece.

 

I wrote a gay story for my college professor last semester while I was doing the parttime classes at U Florida and he actually digged it even though he's straight, but it was because there wasn't any jumping in bed AND he said it showed him a lot more about what it meant to be gay than anything else he's seen. I'll post it here sometime but I only have a written copy cause my computer caught on fire LMBO (long story) so all I have is the final copy so I hafta retype it sometime lol but yeah that's my story for the day!!

[Forloyn]

right you know the only reason I read this topic is cuse the title said SEX right?

 

I don't know but to me plot comes easy, even when I start out with nothing (like the Tale of Two Rings) and didn't even plan on having a plot, it jumped out of the story and bit me on the arse.

 

Sex to me is hard to right, maybe cuse it's filled with lots of verbs and adjitives that I don't even know how to user properly let alone spell, common my highest grade in creative writting was a 70.

 

I mean my papers came back with more red marks on them then they had story in the first place.

 

Do people wanna read sex? yes

will they admit that? some will most won't.

Will they tell you that it could be better with less sex? yes,

but did they like it with the sex? yes.

 

I dunno I guese it would depend on the charicter develpment at the time of the story weather sex should take place or not, and if your not good at writing sex, cut to the next seen. however if you have skills like Myr if you cut to the next seen when i think you should have writen the sex seen you will be hearing from me!

[FreeThinker]

Personly, these days, I rather have a plot filled story with hints of sex instead of a sex filled story with hints of plot.

 

Good one, Myr!

 

 

I would prefer to write my stories without too much sex. I put more in because I am afraid people won't read them without it. Its similar, I suppose, to television. More people watch Fox than PBS. I can't imagine watching Bill Moyers copulating with William F. Buckley, (actually, on second thought, I might actually watch that after all).

 

I have tried to compromise. Centennial Park was originally intended to be submitted to a publisher. It had no descriptions of sex, only hints at when it occured. When I realized publishing was a fantasy, I significantly altered it, toned down the style to a more Fox-like level, as opposed to the PBS-level I had sought, and added several sex scenes for the Nifty crowd. I have felt that I sold out by doing so.

 

I have no objection to sexual stories. I don't read them much anymore. I'm just wondering if I am selling out by putting the sex in or if I am just being realistic about the audience.

 

Are there venues for gay-oriented stories that don't rely on sex?

[EricCase]

Honestly I think it just depends on the goal and audience of your writing. If you're trying to reach/touch the most people, it's probably best to include sex. If your goal is artistic expression of yourself and you don't want to have sex in your piece thennn... don't put sex in. I think there are people who don't NEED the sex in the story, but I think there are more who like the stories they read to have some sexual content.

[Pyro]

When I read stories I try and find the romance and love in a story. I am a romantic at heart (i'm still trying to figure out why i'm single hehe). I love to read romance on nifty and in here. I think for me that the best stories are the ones that don't have a lot of sex in them.

 

In my story In Time I think I did a totle of like 3-4 sex scencs (I don't remember directly). But also in my stories I try to add realisim to them. I think that is why on most of my stories I don't have people write as much.

 

I feel that a good story is one that shows reality to a point but dosen't go over board. I have tried to do that with most of my stories. I have gotten the e-mails stating that I need more sex or let so and so have a three some or somthing. I tell those people thanks for the advice but I try and have romance and realisim in my stories.

 

As I said I have lost a lot of readers because of that, but I am not worried about it right now.

 

Some of my fav stories that don't have a lot of sex in them but do have some or no sex at all is. HP and POD. Julio, The day my life began, Myles and Mark, falling off a log, and Christopher answer and so many more I can't think of.

 

To me writing is from the heart and sometimes it is how we see the reality and pain that is in the world.

 

Through our writtings we have helped people and let people enjoy living in another world for a short period of time. With all of our writtings we have shown them that being gay is ok, and that no matter what we can find love.

 

Pyro :-)

[Taima Matsumushi]

Oi, the all-important sex issue, eh? I'll take a stab at it.

 

Personally, I don't use explicit sex at all (I go for implied sex). I don't necessarily have a problem with people that do, in fact (and I'll admit) there are times when I'll read a story for the sex in it. The point at which it gets tricky for me is right around here; because when I read a story for sex, it's generally because I'm in the mood for porn. When I'm in the mood to read about sex for that purpose, any additional plot just seems unnecessary and wasteful given the reason for which I'm reading the story. If I wanted plot at that point, I'd go read one of the fine stories archived at GayAuthors.org.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I find it distracting to read and/or write scenes depicting graphic sexual intercourse in the middle of a story that I normally read for plot value. For me, the two worlds are very much separated in my mind (it's cool if they're integrated in yours, there's no problem with that, btw ). At the same token, reading pages upon pages of plot (pseudo-plot, really) in what is fundamentally a porn story generally turns me off as well. It's the equivalent of being excited about picking up a 3-hour X-Rated movie only to find out that 2.98 hours of it is LOTR-esque plot development. It's a bit of a violation of the reader's expectations of the genre, in my opinion.

 

Similarly, I think people can get pissy when their expectations are violated in the other direction. For example, I have many times been reading an online novel or fanfic and LOVING the deep storyline and character development, then become totally turned off when one of the chapters turns into an unnecessarily detailed (IMO) account of a sexual act involving one or more of the characters.

 

On Nifty, however, these expectations really shouldn't be much trouble, considering that most people know what they're reading ahead of time. Ocassionally people get confused, but more often than not, it's clear from the first chapter what type of story it's going to be.

 

On the issue of pleasing the audience, I think it's a sad, sad day for the GLBT community when a story lacking explicit sex scenes has an extraordinary amount of trouble succeeding (such as success is defined on the internet). Obviously the straight community has the same problems, but perhaps it's the fact that literary sites such as Nifty.org define themselves as venues in which sexually explicit content is a major draw. Once again, I'm not saying that sex scenes are bad, just that I believe that they shouldn't be what defines the genre of gay fiction (although I have trouble accepting the idea of "gay fiction" as a genre as it is, considering most, if not all gay fiction can easily fit into an existing literary genre, homosexual characters and themes notwithstanding).

 

I hope that made some sense.

 

FreeThinker- I really, REALLY hope there are.

[James Bond]

right you know the only reason I read this topic is cuse the title said SEX right?

 

Touch

[Forloyn]

For example, I have many times been reading an online novel or fanfic and LOVING the deep storyline and character development, then become totally turned off when one of the chapters turns into an unnecessarily detailed (IMO) account of a sexual act involving one or more of the characters.

 

her her!

[FreeThinker]

Well, YEA! This turned into a fairly interesting thread!

 

I guess if I am posting on Nifty, I can put a little sex into it without getting carried away. I don't have to be the queer-boy Jackie Collins, (oh my, what an awful thought!). SOME sex is fun and exciting, but that doesn't have to be the entire story. A good plot and story-line are necessary, with stong characters and an interesting setting. I believe sex, if it is going to enter into the story, should appear only if it is going to enhance the overall plot and story-line, not if Jon and Bruce are about to discover why the mummy's sarcofogus is open and decide, oh well, before we uncover the secret of the Mummy's curse, LET"S GET IT ON!

 

 

 

 

Feel free to continue the discussion!

[James Bond]

One of the most important questions that needs to be answered when you start writing a story, is who are you writing for.

 

When you write for Nifty or GA, you may reasonably assume you're writing for sexually curious, interrested or even openminded people, who seek gay or bi stories.

Posting a Jackie Collins type story here would be... let's say "original".

 

I don't mind reading a well written J-O story, there are authors at Nifty that do them well.

 

But the stories that satisfies me have a distinct plot or, even better, a clear purpose. Too much or too explicit sex can divert or even destroy a story.

And too little may make me feel cheated.

 

007

[EricCase]

I agree with 007, you just have to consider who your audience is and write accordingly

[Taima Matsumushi]

Yeah, I agree about audience consideration. My only major problem is the way almost all gay fiction on the net is inexorably linked with the expectation of sexually explicit content.

 

It makes it very difficult for people who don't use explicit sex (like me) to gain any sort of credibility when every venue with high traffic expects sex scenes as a matter of course.

[James Bond]

Not necessarily, Taima.

Just remember to include in the intro/disclaimer there will be little/no explicit sex.

Then those who're looking for "gangbangs" will know to stay away, and those who're looking for a good read will continue.

 

But you can describe love, without going into all the sordid details of the actual sex act(s).

 

 

007

[Myr]

Indeed. It is also why we have "codes" on the story archive. Most of the stuff that gets added to the archive is much more story than sex.

 

However, it would be rather handy to ahve people read the stories in the archive and rate them, leaving helpful comments for the author and other readers...

[miguelsanchez55]

Dear Taima,

I have read stories with no sex and there wasn't a warning at the start either. Just go for it and write it. I'd love to read another good story without sex.

 

Take care

Mike :sword:

[Pyro]

I agree I have read many stories with no sex or very little and I mean very little sex in them that I find are some of my favorite stories. As I said about I love more romance stories than anything else.

 

Pyro :-)

 

[dkstories]

Sex within a story is something I've always had to wrestle with. I've had people wanting MORE sex, and people wanting NO sex in the stories I write, and both types have valid reasons. For me, I long since decided that I don't want to write pornographic stories (even though I've been known to read a few from time to time).

 

However, I do occasionally include sex scenes in my story. Sometimes its because I need to show the physical intimacy between certain characters, or because something integral to the story happens during that scene. I do my best to make sure the scenes are not 'pornographic' in nature, but relate the true purpose of the scene. They aren't, um forgive the pun, "blow-by-blow" descriptions but they are descriptive enough to make whatever point I need to make.

 

For instance, in one of my HP stories, I have two characters taking a shower together and masturbating. They aren't touching each other, an integral plot point that needed to be made. It's also something both characters would NOT mention aloud to each other. The only way I could get that point across was to write the scene and show what was happening, without getting getting to descriptive.

 

Usually what I will do though is have the characters kiss, and go through foreplay before fading to black. I also try to keep it to what could be shown on screen in a very hard "R" or "NC-17" rating. I've only gone further than that once (in an early chapter of Mists of Fate that I later re-wrote because I didn't like it at all) and I doubt I'll ever go there again.

 

Hope this contributes to the discussion.

[dkstories]

I've actually had to surprise myself with my new story that I'm working on as I've progressed in it. It's a sci-fi story and I found that a lot of important character development takes place during certain sexual situations. I tried writing the scenes with most of the 'sex' parts not shown, but the important character developments didn't come through clear enough. The first re-write had things way to explicit and the character development was drowned out by the heat of the scene, so I changed it yet again, and reached a medium point that will probably make the people who don't like seeing the actual act go 'way too much', and those who want to see more say 'not enough'.

 

There's more implied sexual activity than expressed in the story, and that's the way I want to keep it, period, because the story is not about the sexual life of the characters. However, the sexual life has an impact upon the characters, and thus it has a part in the story. I think readers of both preferences for sex in stories will eventually be satisfied if they stick with it to the bitter end (and if you thought Mists of Fate was a bitter-sweet ending, just wait)

 

I'll just have to wait until we get it posted to see if this works or not!