so long and kiss my ass

[JamesSavik]

Opinion retracted...

[Nephylim]

Not that you care much I love your passion and happen to totally agree with what you say this time.

[PrivateTim]

I don't give a flying f**k about these brats and their god damned proms.

 

I am so sick of hearing about this. The whole thing trivializes the real problems that GLBT people have.

 

Since the prom drama has descended on us, two major gay-rights issues have basically vanished from the news: the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't tell and the Employment Non Discrimination Act.

 

What is the point of going to your prom if you are going to be denied a military career or have to face years of discrimination in the work place?

 

Kinda put the prom drama in perspective doesn't it?

 

Be careful with the media. They are not our friends. They will roll the same stock footage of someone acting a fool at a Pride Rally for decades.

 

Don't think using these Prom stories as a distraction from the Realpolitik is beneath them.

 

If your prom is the biggest problem that you've got, then thank your lucky god damned stars.

 

Grown ups have problems too and the stakes are a hell of a lot higher so STFU and take one for the team.

 

Has anyone ever accused you James of speaking before you think or think of the hurt the words might cause? I know I have been accused of that and not always inaccurately. I am intensely emotional and often fire from the hip before I think.

 

While the prom might seem trivial to you, it might not to the young lady in question, it seems to her a basic right, to take a date of her choice to prom her senior year of high school. I have only read the barest accounts of the story, but I remember correctly, it was in MS and somewhat rural MS. I don't know when Ms. McMillen came out, or if she ever did or if she suffered at her school because she is gay, but I know plenty of gay kids who have been tormented by their classmates, called names, been shoved into lockers, isolated, had their car and or locker defaced maybe even their homes vandalized. Wanting to have one nice memory of high school doesn't seem too much to ask.

 

Gay youth would like to feel the love and support of the gay community since they may not get it anyplace else, not at school or even at home. And then to be told by a gay adult to STFU. I don't think I could take that, that would be the last straw for me.

 

On a personal note, that you don't understand the incredibly high stakes at making public schools safe, supporting and even friendly places for gay youth shocks the conscious. Most gay people will pay for schools they never have children to send to. To think that we can not support one of our own is staggering.

 

 

[Drewbie]

I see what James is saying, in the grand scheme of things, prom is not the end of hte world, bullying in school is an issue, but not to make prom the main issue of gay's being discriminated in schools. Getting fired from a job or being forced out, don't ask don't tell, is a bigger issue.

 

I find this case a bigger issue http://americanasylum.wordpress.com/2010/01/16/justice-department-defends-gay-teen/

Edited April 11, 2010 by Drewbie

[JamesSavik]

Opinion retracted...

[NightOwl88]

I never went to high school so I never had the issue of having to deal with Prom and being gay, to be honest I wouldn't have gone anyway lol.

 

Maybe its because I don't have that stigma but I can see both points being made here. I agree that a canceled Prom isn't the end of the world but you've got to step back and take a look at the broader implications.

 

How can we solve harrasment and discrimination in the work place if we can't prevent it our schools? You can't fix the big issues without fixing the small ones first, it undermines the entire system. We learn hate and discrimination at a young age, from home, from tv, and from school. We can't change what kids learn at home, what their exposed to, but we can make a difference by changing the rules of the schools, making them a safer more fair minded place. I'm sure I'll get argument here *what good does changing the schools if we don't change the rules for society as a whole* You've go to think though, Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

Build the foundation first, then the structure it supports. Older minds, older people don't change just because you repeal and pass laws. I'm not saying people don't change but the vast majority don't because they are still chalked full of the programing they recieved as kids. PUBLIC schools are a place where a real and tangible difference can be made, examples can be given that will carry over into the adult life.

 

Do you think this girl or the other LGBT students will be better for this experiance or worse, will this make them champions for Civil Rights or make them hopeless jaded assholes who don't care about the world around them. People may not think so but this 'little' story could cause VAST changes in the people involved, positive and negative and affect anything they might do and any LGBT laws or movments in the future, ever heard of the Straw that broke the camels back?

 

As for Don't ask don't tell. I don't have any strong feelings on the subject, I don't intend on joining the military but I do feel for the people it affects. I understand that it's not fair not to be able to be yourself in the defense of your country but you have to admit there is safty in silence and ambiguity. I can't honestly believe anyone would think repealing the Law would make military life for LGBT soilders any easier, sure they wont be discharged but they'll always have that stigma hanging over their heads, marked men/women, if you will.

 

My final point, if I've even made one in this little ramble, is that does it really matter? Media coverage should be balanced between *large* and *small* issues but in the end it out of the common people's hands, its for the government and the courts to decide.

 

best Wishes,

NightOwl

[Tommy_B]

I see what James is saying, in the grand scheme of things, prom is not the end of hte world, bullying in school is an issue, but not to make prom the main issue of gay's being discriminated in schools. Getting fired from a job or being forced out, don't ask don't tell, is a bigger issue.

 

I find this case a bigger issue http://americanasylu...fends-gay-teen/

 

So you agree with James that she is just a brat and should STFU?

 

When should gay bi les students stand up for their rights?

 

Am I a brat for wanting to invite a boy to be my date to prom?

 

Not that I can or would because I don't go to public school.

 

So tell us where we should start.

 

I am very confused by this hostility and yelling at a gay kid.

[Ramon]

Now if you are going to tell them to STFU might as well be nice about and say "please STFU, thanks!"

 

In all seriousness though, I don't think anyone can argue against the issues you presented being bigger issues compared to the girls prom. However, can't you also make the argument that since it isn't that big of an issue, then the school should just let her go to the damn prom? Now I know that they may be way up in the boondocks but somebody there must have a brain (a heart is still debatable) and realize that.

 

Also, does her 'taking one for the team' really help that much with the other issues? The girl dropping the case won't necessarily lead to the media focusing more on the repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell or the Employment Non-Discrimination Act. They'd probably just have more guys devoted to following Tiger Woods or Jesse James hoopla.

 

Side note: Didn't they already go to some alternative prom type of thing? Why is this issue back in the news?

[Drewbie]

So you agree with James that she is just a brat and should STFU?

 

When should gay bi les students stand up for their rights?

 

Am I a brat for wanting to invite a boy to be my date to prom?

 

Not that I can or would because I don't go to public school.

 

So tell us where we should start.

 

I am very confused by this hostility and yelling at a gay kid.

 

I agree with james that it isn't the biggest issue, I find it more troublesome with the link I sent and if a kid is being threatened by another kid, this link never got broadcasted nationwide like this prom case is.

 

Honestly I think we should start with having rights with work place, and being able to see a partner if they go into the hospital, and dadt. we are wasting so much money by letting go service members who get outed or out themselves and like I said twice the case about the school system doing zip to protect the kid and the teachers while the kid got push down the stairs, there was no news about this case nation wide but the prom one did.

 

 

http://americanasylum.wordpress.com/2010/01/16/justice-department-defends-gay-teen/

 

please read what is inside of the link.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Drewbie

[Johnathan Colourfield]

I'm from Mississippi. I've had a ringside seat.

I've also seen hundreds, maybe thousands of other kids who weren't quote as photogenic as a hot lesbian get completely f**ked over.

Where is their article in the Times? Where is the ACLU or the press?

This entire episode is political theater and we're going to end up getting shafted because everyone is saying awe let the kids have their prom and NOT WATCHING THE BALL.

f**k THE PROM. It's 4 hours when you are 17.

I'm MUCH MORE CONCERNED ABOUT THE REST OF OUR LIVES.

 

 

Excuse me... This is rather offensive towards teenagers in the LGBT movement. For alot of people the prom is the only night that they get to feel beautiful or special.

And to have that removed from them because of their sexuality is a very key concern. How dare you say that it is just 4 hours when you are 17.

I was bullied majorly because i was gay by students in my year when i had my Year 11 prom.

 

i was scared to walk in the door.

 

But on that evening, everyone was treated equal regardless of sexuality and gender and everyone looked like angels. For some people it is the best night of their lives.

So i resent your comment about it only being a very short space in time.

 

Also please don't refer to location, i am in quite a rough town in the UK, where gays still get chased for being gay. *rolls eyes* Meh who really cares about this

 

 

Yes of course you should be concerned with the rest of our lives, but i know in england, that it is one of the very few things that are banned (homosexual couples going to their proms), it is "legal" to be gay at 16 here and i know we do need to look to the future but alot of people do not look to the future at that age. They are more concerned with who they are going hump next at college

[Arpeggio]

What happened in my teenage years and currently is affecting the rest of my life. Either way I want equal rights. >_>

 

I was told I couldn't go to my prom with Chris not because he was a guy, but because he had been expelled, so I never actually had any problem with this, but I'd be pretty upset if they said no because we were gay. DADT and employment discrimination would be miles away from my world then.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Arpeggio

[JensenC]

I have mixed views on this, I have to say I understand people feeling frustrated that a prom gets more attention than other big issues but then I have to agree that prom can be a big deal and not being able to take your date because they are the same sex is discrimination.

 

I do think the anger needs to be redirected more at the media and not those that are fighting for gay rights, the girl using the media is doing all she can to help fight her case. It is obviously important to her and I have to think a fight for gay rights no matter how small is a worthy fight, and she cannot be blamed for using the media if they are willing to cover the story so much.

 

As someone said if that story was not covered it doesn't mean more important gay issues would be.

 

It would be great if the media covered the important issues but even the smallest of battles can have an effect on things. Fighting discrimination often starts small, with a handful of people refusing to be treated diffrently because of their race, sex, sexual orientation. The big fights help but all the small ones make some difference.

 

I try and see what the girl is doing as a positive thing and wish more in the gay community felt able to stand up for themselves, i think telling them to STFU is sending the wrong message, the gay community have had to live in silence for too long as it is. So we should be showing someone who is so young and able to speak out our support, not trying to silence them because there are enough people that want to do that.

 

As i said aim your anger at the media for deciding to cover this story over others for whatever reason, I am fairly sure the girl and many others would still fight even without the media coverage.

 

I think young gays and lesbians should be give the respect they deserve for standing up for gay rights in various ways, even if its as simple as prom dates. You never know who they will grow up to be and what they will do to support gay rights in the future and it may seem insignificant but this could just be the start. If she listens to the suggestion to STFU then you lose a gay adult with a voice who is not afraid to air her views on gay rights and fight for them.

 

That would be a sad loss.

 

Just worth thinking about.

Edited April 11, 2010 by JensenC

[Mark Arbour]

What a fascinating thread, all about priorities, and especially inter-generational priorities.

 

I guess if you're my age, the Employment Non-Discrimination Act would be the most important.

 

If you're in high school, being allowed to bring your partner to the prom would be.

 

If you're 18 and want to join the military, then it would be the repeal of DADT.

 

And if you're in college, it would be the ability to form a GSA on campus.

 

I think we're making a big mistake, thinking that all of these things are disconnected. I don't think they are. I think they're all part of GLBT people demanding equal treatment, all from different parts of the spectrum. It would be easy for me, as someone who is middle-aged (f**k you Jeremy ) to ignore the prom factor. But the truth of the matter is that our society is conquering discrimation against GLBT people (and racism in general) with the attitudes of the much more tolerant and open-minded youth of America. To me, that makes this Prom thing a big deal.

 

For every middle-aged asshole who declares that two fags can't go to the prom together, a bunch of young people decide they don't want to be like that.

[Hoskins]

James feel free to correct me here, but I'm guessing that your frustration isn't really with the girl or the prom per se, but at the media attention its getting instead of the wider issues you're discussing?

 

I personally think the whole deal is a complete ratf**k for the girls and the kids in that town.

 

I think the issue should not be taking media or lobbyist attention away from larger issues.

 

I, however, blame the gay community for not staying focused on those issues in the first place. We should not be in this position with a Democrat in the White House.

 

And so I blame El Presidente as well.

[Mark Arbour]

James feel free to correct me here, but I'm guessing that your frustration isn't really with the girl or the prom per se, but at the media attention its getting instead of the wider issues you're discussing?

 

I personally think the whole deal is a complete ratf**k for the girls and the kids in that town.

 

I think the issue should not be taking media or lobbyist attention away from larger issues.

 

I, however, blame the gay community for not staying focused on those issues in the first place. We should not be in this position with a Democrat in the White House.

 

And so I blame El Presidente as well.

 

Dude, we're in the lounge. No politics.

 

Bad Hoskins. Bad.

[Drewbie]

James feel free to correct me here, but I'm guessing that your frustration isn't really with the girl or the prom per se, but at the media attention its getting instead of the wider issues you're discussing?

 

I personally think the whole deal is a complete ratf**k for the girls and the kids in that town.

 

I think the issue should not be taking media or lobbyist attention away from larger issues.

 

I, however, blame the gay community for not staying focused on those issues in the first place. We should not be in this position with a Democrat in the White House.

 

And so I blame El Presidente as well.

 

Yea half it is media, and I just don't want the whole priority just on the prom issue. I'd say another issue is really not everyone is behind one big issue, some it's towards marriage, some dadt. a few of them needs to take the post priority and then still back the other ones. not sure if that makes sense.

[JamesSavik]

Opinion retracted...

[Y_B]

Guys, guys, you're all forgetting that James is just too cool for school.

 

Clearly we must understand that if it's not his problem, then it's not a problem at all, right? right?

 

I may need to rethink my whole life!

[Phantom]

IMHO it's about the broad implications of this. Yes it has to do with her prom, but it can be used for anything beyond that. They tell someones who gay they can't goto prom (a school sanctioned event) and lo and behold they can do the same thing in another area (say baseball, soccer, school clubs, committees, etc). The idea that this can happen is what makes me think that it's good idea that she sues because then they can use that to cite in other cases they may be brought up. Think of the long term, not the immediate term. In any case I feel that this is more ammunition for us to use on bigger things.

[JamesSavik]

Opinion retracted...

[Linxe Termoil]

No longer reading this thread- too pissed.

 

Will go away, kill something with a fork, talk to you later.

 

LoL. Why the hell did you even start this thread if you can't take it? Pissed off because not everyone agrees with you? You had to know that was coming.

[D_of_Hazzard]

I think most of what I want to say is already said by the people above.

 

James, you were giving a very inconsiderate and controversial speech, and you should not be surprised that your backlash received backlash. I'm not saying that I disagree that some issues weigh more than others in terms of how many people it affects and the lasting consequences, but everything starts small. Remember back to when you were a kid and you were dealing with things you would find trivial now. There are others kids dealing with the same these days, please don't condescend them or insult them for being at a place you have already passed.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Delts of Hazard

[JamesSavik]

I withdraw my support of any and all gay rights causes.

 

There is nothing in it for me so f**kIT

 

I retract this statement and apologize for being an asshole.

[wildone]

I withdraw my support of any and all gay rights causes.

 

There is nothing in it for me so f**kIT

 

 

Well James, I don't know how long that will last. You are much too much of a passionate and committed person to just say f it and move on.

 

If anything, this thread has maybe been an eye opening experience. You took one approach and found out you called a generation up in arms maybe not for your cause, but a cause in general.

 

Not saying that you will get everyone to be unified on marching the direction you want everyone to go, but maybe to use the passion and intelligence of the 'younger' crowd to move forward on a cause.

 

Every stage of life has a different objective, teens looking to becoming adults, young adults looking to settling down, middle agers to retirement, retirees to ?

 

Hope to see you around soon

[Y_B]

James, it was not so much what you said that gave you such a hard time in this thread, but the manner in which you were asserting your retracted opinions. Hardly anyone would argue that adolescent complications are comparatively trivial on the lgbt agenda but your approach was angry and tone bitter and that made all the difference, imho. Those ostentatious speeches of "I don't give a flying f*k about you so stfu" do not serve anybody well regardless of who it came from or the situation directed.