Straight women who write M4M fiction for other women

[NaperVic]

I read this article in the most recent Out Magazine "Meet Alex and Erastes, two straight women who write erotic man-on-man fiction for other women. Confused Yet? - Cintra Wilson explores publishing's hottest new trend" and found it very interesting. It's hit upon many areas that might be of interest to many on GA.

 

Here's an online link to the article.

 

There's good info for those of you considering getting your work published.

 

Take Care®,

 

Vic

[Tipdin]

I'm not sure why this is even an issue.

 

Straight men have been using lesbian sex to get their rocks off forever. It just seems natural that straight women would use gay men the way straight men use gay women.

 

People are sexual beings for pete's sake! Sexual orientation, sexual fantasies, and all other emotions exist on a sliding scale. Most everything in life is a degree of intensity, it seems so logical and simple to me.

[Bandage]

I think this certainly describes a few straight women who write/read gay novels, but not all. Of course, I'm no woman so I can't really judge!

 

I must say however that most of the best novels/stories I have read so far were written by a woman, so you certainly don't hear me complaining! (♥ Cia)

 

I think women spend more time thinking/writing about the emotional part in stories, while men tend to be focused on the physical part of love, and which does explain why one might get more sympathy for the characters.

 

 

Just my 2 cents ;o

 

And thanks for sharing the article!

[AnytaSunday]

As a woman and a writer, I just want to say I love writing love stories (emotional comes first, but personally I like a splash of the physical too, because I think it adds to the realness--and sexual desire is a part of life for most).

 

Anyway, I write both straight and gay love stories for no intended audience, just whoever wants to read them.

[zland666]

I'm not sure why this is even an issue.

 

Straight men have been using lesbian sex to get their rocks off forever. It just seems natural that straight women would use gay men the way straight men use gay women.

 

 

Thank you thats me and thats the way i explained it to my dad

[W_L]

I wonder, who's attracted to "Sex and the City" then?

[Amelia]

If I ever tried to write anything, it would be M/M slash. It is the fantasies from my head, played out on paper, and often better than my own imagination. I love the romance between two men, followed up by passionate, steamy sex. From what I have read (and I have more than 80 m/m e-books - sick, i know, if you ever want to e-lend, I'm your gal), male authors write the best sex scenes, but so far the majority of my fav authors are female, for the combination of romance and sex.

[Young Sage]

Someone told me that I needed to comment on this (I'm not mentioning any names *coughCaeduscough*). Admittedly, I skimmed through the article, but I guess I do have a question for y'all. What does everyone, especially the females here, think about female writers who basically writes one of the gay main characters as nothing more than a woman with a penis (yes, these kinds of women DO exist out there, and yes, I'm talking about stuff beyond the realm of yaoi, which I know is also written "by women, for women")? Basically, guys who display unrealistically feminine traits to the point that it's kinda insulting to both men and women.

[Amelia]

Someone told me that I needed to comment on this (I'm not mentioning any names *coughCaeduscough*). Admittedly, I skimmed through the article, but I guess I do have a question for y'all. What does everyone, especially the females here, think about female writers who basically writes one of the gay main characters as nothing more than a woman with a penis (yes, these kinds of women DO exist out there, and yes, I'm talking about stuff beyond the realm of yaoi, which I know is also written "by women, for women")? Basically, guys who display unrealistically feminine traits to the point that it's kinda insulting to both men and women.

 

More often then not, I enjoy the stories where both men have very strong masculine traits. However, Jet Mykles' Heaven Sent series is one of my absolute favorites. It is Yaoi, and a few of the characters intentionally have a feminine flair. Just as all gay men are not feminine, flamboyant, or flaming ... some of them are. I appreciate the mix in fiction, as well as in life.

[viv]

I won't claim to be the first female to write gay romantic fiction, but I was the first female to be hosted here years back. I'm straight, and I don't feel as though I'm transgendered or that I can't identify with the female body, although I will admit that I have a serious case of penis envy every now and again, mostly because without one, there are just somethings I can never know. I like men, so of course, two is better than one, and assuming a person isn't held back by other (ridiculous) factors that would make gay male sexual relationships anything other than beautiful, then there should be no reason a straight woman wouldn't enjoy a story involving two men.

 

I think for me, it's always been about ego. When women are egotistical, they're called bitchy or stuck-up. When men are egotistical, it's expected, so much so, that men allow their egos to get in the way of things they want or would like to try, perhaps like taking a ballet class. Society has made it so that if you're an 'Alpha Male' you have a responsibility to uphold the 'example of manliness', and if you're not the 'Alpha Male', you're striving to be just like one. There are a few men, here and there, that just don't care. They don't care what society expects from them, they don't care what label they're given, they just follow their hearts, and I'm more in love with the idea of that than almost anything else.

 

I think that there's just something amazing that can happen when egos are pushed aside in favor of emotions and that's the thing I love to explore. When you allow emotions to guide you, that brings with it all the accompaniments that make any story or relationship something all people can relate to: excitement, joy, love, fear, sadness, faith, trust, and those things have no gender or sexual orientation.

 

I will say that I know there's a place for everything in this world, even corny, bad porn, but for me, it's the relationship that I want to see. How they interact with each other, how they support each other, and how open they are willing to be to find their happiness. As adults, we all know that adult loving relationships involve sex, and even some relationships that don't involve love involve sex, but I think it's just a part of the characters' story. It's not the point of the story.

 

Additionally, until recently, there hasn't been much of a support system for young gay people. How many of you were 12 or 13 and while all your friends were talking about their new fascination with the opposite sex, you were wondering what the big deal was? And then around 14 or 15, when they were all getting their first boyfriend or girlfriend, their first date, holding hands for the first time, their first kiss, you were realizing that you wanted that too, but with someone of the same sex. And then comes all the fallout from that realization, the collateral damage. What does that make me? How will I live with this? Can I tell my parents? My friends? What does this really mean for my future long term?

 

I think, sometimes, knowing that you're not alone and that other people have walked down this road before, lived to tell about it, and arrived with a smile on their face and love in their heart can mean more than almost anything to someone who feels scared and alone. It's for these reasons that I choose to write coming of age type stories, and because love doesn't discriminate that I can write about two gay men who set aside their egos in exchange for a chance at something more.

[Krista]

I love your explanation Viv.

[Amelia]

I won't claim to be the first female to write gay romantic fiction, but I was the first female to be hosted here years back. I'm straight, and I don't feel as though I'm transgendered or that I can't identify with the female body, although I will admit that I have a serious case of penis envy every now and again, mostly because without one, there are just somethings I can never know. I like men, so of course, two is better than one, and assuming a person isn't held back by other (ridiculous) factors that would make gay male sexual relationships anything other than beautiful, then there should be no reason a straight woman wouldn't enjoy a story involving two men.

 

I think for me, it's always been about ego. When women are egotistical, they're called bitchy or stuck-up. When men are egotistical, it's expected, so much so, that men allow their egos to get in the way of things they want or would like to try, perhaps like taking a ballet class. Society has made it so that if you're an 'Alpha Male' you have a responsibility to uphold the 'example of manliness', and if you're not the 'Alpha Male', you're striving to be just like one. There are a few men, here and there, that just don't care. They don't care what society expects from them, they don't care what label they're given, they just follow their hearts, and I'm more in love with the idea of that than almost anything else.

 

I think that there's just something amazing that can happen when egos are pushed aside in favor of emotions and that's the thing I love to explore. When you allow emotions to guide you, that brings with it all the accompaniments that make any story or relationship something all people can relate to: excitement, joy, love, fear, sadness, faith, trust, and those things have no gender or sexual orientation.

 

I will say that I know there's a place for everything in this world, even corny, bad porn, but for me, it's the relationship that I want to see. How they interact with each other, how they support each other, and how open they are willing to be to find their happiness. As adults, we all know that adult loving relationships involve sex, and even some relationships that don't involve love involve sex, but I think it's just a part of the characters' story. It's not the point of the story.

 

Additionally, until recently, there hasn't been much of a support system for young gay people. How many of you were 12 or 13 and while all your friends were talking about their new fascination with the opposite sex, you were wondering what the big deal was? And then around 14 or 15, when they were all getting their first boyfriend or girlfriend, their first date, holding hands for the first time, their first kiss, you were realizing that you wanted that too, but with someone of the same sex. And then comes all the fallout from that realization, the collateral damage. What does that make me? How will I live with this? Can I tell my parents? My friends? What does this really mean for my future long term?

 

I think, sometimes, knowing that you're not alone and that other people have walked down this road before, lived to tell about it, and arrived with a smile on their face and love in their heart can mean more than almost anything to someone who feels scared and alone. It's for these reasons that I choose to write coming of age type stories, and because love doesn't discriminate that I can write about two gay men who set aside their egos in exchange for a chance at something more.

 

ditto on your explanation. I give you a plus too, but I have reached my quota for the day.

[Forty-Two]

I'm not sure why this is even an issue.

 

Straight men have been using lesbian sex to get their rocks off forever. It just seems natural that straight women would use gay men the way straight men use gay women.

 

People are sexual beings for pete's sake! Sexual orientation, sexual fantasies, and all other emotions exist on a sliding scale. Most everything in life is a degree of intensity, it seems so logical and simple to me.

 

I had a conversation of this type with .Soup. in the thread Are There Any Lesbian Stories On GA? At some point I definitely thought that women only read guy-on-guy because it was sexy in the same way girl-on-girl is for guys. I now think there's a lot more to it than that. The pertinent bit that relate to this thread are pasted below:

 

I'm not sure if you've watched Queer As Folk before, but i read an article a few years ago on why such a large percentage of their audience is made up of straight females when the show is primarily about gay guys. It's kind of psychoanalytical and also a little stereotypical but nonetheless it did raise some valid points about the audience, which are demographicaly similar to this site, despite the different mediums (tv show, fiction).

"Why are all these Straight Chicks Watching Queer As Folk?" [article]

 

The article pointed out some interesting bits, such as that when women watch guy-on-guy they're not consuming sex in the same way that guys are when watching girl-on-girl. Straight guys like girl-on-girl because there is no male figure to have their sexuality threatened by. Women always watch and compare themselves to the girl in guy-on-girl and end up feeling badly about themselves, so they feel more satisfaction when watching guy-on-guy because there is no one for them to be distracted by.

[Forty-Two]

"Why are women fans so alienated from their own bodies that they can write erotic fantasies only in relation to a non-female body? She surmises that perhaps men

[Amelia]

"Why are women fans so alienated from their own bodies that they can write erotic fantasies only in relation to a non-female body? She surmises that perhaps men's bodies are simply easier to fantasize with because they aren't the legal, moral, religious battleground that women's bodies are. ... While the men in M/M novels are invariably described as looking like Roman gods, the women -- auxiliary characters such as unwanted wives or nosy scullery maids -- are not portrayed as sexually or emotionally desirable at all. They are usually quite the opposite -- weak, whining simps who cough up blood and lose their hair and/or their minds. "

 

I can see women feeling one way or the other, or both - that they want to avoid the female body because of all the stressful cultural associations they have with it, or that they are participating in misogynist hate/trashing of the female body.

 

"The plain and simple answer for me is that in my sexual imagination, I'm a gay man. I write to satisfy a sexual desire that I can't physically satisfy in this body." Yes, but how much of that is just your fantasy space and how much of that is your true feeling of your sexual identity?

 

"For a long time, I thought I was transgender. I thought I literally was a gay man trapped in a woman's body. Now I'm just confused. I don't really identify with either gender. But it's taken me 40 years to get to this point." This is also probably a common sentiment, especially among young women who aren't sure why they are attracted to m/m or feel that it is shameful/wrong.

 

"Both women agree: Slash is the whole thing. For both of them, and presumably for a number of their fans as well, slash, in itself, literally is sex." I don't want to jump into stereotypes or be disrespectful, but I can't help but notice both these women are well into middle age and are quite overweight. Perhaps the reason this IS sex for them is in part due to their lack of sexual options in real life?

 

To your first response to the article quote ... Maybe some women feel that way, but I defiantly don't. Do you think that men who enjoy f/f sex hate their bodies? I guess there are negative cultural associations with the female body, but I'm not sure there are all that many of us who avoid our bodies to such an extent.

 

To your second response ...I think this was a unique view taken by someone who is bisexual and confused about her identity. I don't think most women or men, for that matter, are confused about their gender identity, although transgendered people are out there.

 

And to your last ... One of them is married, so her sexual options are fairly open. I don't know that I'd say slash is sex for me, I have plenty of it with husband, but it is my sex of choice in reading, watching, and many fantasies.

[Former Member]

I don't have an issue with it, except when the female women present the men sometimes as only, as young sage said, "a woman with a penis".

 

Wrote an article it myself, and though it was at my own blog, the link was posted at one of my publishers, Dreamspinner Press, so a number of authors from there posted interesting comments, many of whom are straight women who write m/m or as I prefer, gay fiction. Female writers of M/M fiction. I also posted the article on GA, but the comments from widely known authors are at wordpress.

 

I would say some lesbian writers can be included in that also, as on the writer forum one day, one asked "what lube do you guys use in a bathtub scene, am writing a sex scene in water"...and I felt like saying, if you have ask, why are you writing about that? Most of their questions were about very graphic details of gay sex. I wanted to ask, why do you feel the need to write about it in that much detail?? Anyway...at my article here or at WP. There's a couple of practical reasons for it, including marketing and this is what's highly popular and high selling at the moment.

 

For myself I have no comment regarding men's interest in f/f reading because it does not and never has interested me in the slightest. For m/m fiction for that matter, I don't read that much of it because if I want to read or see something about gay sex, I put a mirror on the ceiling. If I want to read a story which happens to have gay characters I might look for something carefully. Stories which are by majority about sex, are sexually graphic in detail, especially if it's a woman I've read who does not "do it" right, I simply prefer to abstain than critique.

 

Additionally, until recently, there hasn't been much of a support system for young gay people. How many of you were 12 or 13 and while all your friends were talking about their new fascination with the opposite sex, you were wondering what the big deal was? And then around 14 or 15, when they were all getting their first boyfriend or girlfriend, their first date, holding hands for the first time, their first kiss, you were realizing that you wanted that too, but with someone of the same sex. And then comes all the fallout from that realization, the collateral damage. What does that make me? How will I live with this? Can I tell my parents? My friends? What does this really mean for my future long term?

 

I think, sometimes, knowing that you're not alone and that other people have walked down this road before, lived to tell about it, and arrived with a smile on their face and love in their heart can mean more than almost anything to someone who feels scared and alone. It's for these reasons that I choose to write coming of age type stories, and because love doesn't discriminate that I can write about two gay men who set aside their egos in exchange for a chance at something more.

 

I think it depends very much on the society in which you live. Which is why I rejected life in the USA for Germany, Berlin specifically because it was far, far less of an issue who you kissed: it was a boy one week, a girl the next, and it was considered the normal instead of the exception.

 

I also like your explanation, but I know very, very many female writers of m/m who do it, self-expressed, not for that reason at all. There are always the exceptions who are like that, and I don't take their percentage to be the whole by any means, but it does very much increase my caution in choosing what I read if it gay fiction written by a woman. I choose to be honest about that. I like good fiction no matter if its hetero or gay, no matter who wrote it. That's my bottom line. And....I think some people confuse gay fiction with gay erotica. I read the former, not the latter.

[Cia]

I read anything and everything. Genre matters to me somewhat as well as age but I try not to judge until I've tried each story myself. I don't care if it's f/f, m/m, m/f, m/f/m, f/m/f, whatever other combo you can throw in there. I'm forever trying to find new books to read, though I am much pickier in those than I am in online fiction, mostly due to length. Really I don't need sex in the stories, graphic or discreet. A good story stands on it's own. That's not to say I don't enjoy a good sex scene if it's done well, because I do. And it doesn't really matter to me who is having sex, as long as it's well written I can enjoy any combo of characters. As for writing, I write the characters that come to me. I don't think I write guys who are especially feminine, if anything I have regular guys or a bit more 'alpha' male types.

 

What does everyone, especially the females here, think about female writers who basically writes one of the gay main characters as nothing more than a woman with a penis (yes, these kinds of women DO exist out there, and yes, I'm talking about stuff beyond the realm of yaoi, which I know is also written "by women, for women")? Basically, guys who display unrealistically feminine traits to the point that it's kinda insulting to both men and women.

 

I am not arguing, I've read stories that the 'alpha' male character calls the other male lead character derogative names and feminize them, especially in regards to sex scenes. I've never liked those kinds of stories honestly. But what do you mean unrealistically feminine traits? Is a guy who is in touch with his feelings, who is comfortable sharing them and being open about them 'being feminine'? Is it a guy who likes to shop, who knows fashion and is open about that 'feminine'? What exactly is it that makes something a 'womanly' trait versus just a human trait? Why do we stereotype that way? I've known men in real life who were gay and as 'macho' as they come, as in they love sports, beer, hanging with the guys and all that and I've known gay men who dress in drag at times and who get mani/pedi's and go shopping with their women friends. I also know straight men who do the shopping thing way better than I can and who don't like most sports but enjoy reading a good book with a glass of wine.

 

I myself write m/m but it's just the characters that come to me. I don't view it as sex for me, it's not the sole thing I think about when it comes to sex. I happen to be married to a man but I'm bi. I like to think I have a wide variety of interests and experiences with people (of all types, not just sexual experiences) that easily identify with what you might think of as a 'male' character. I hunt, I fish, I like football, I don't like to shop or be fussy about being a woman with things like fashion, hair or make-up. That being said, I like being a woman, I just am not your 'stereotypical' one.

 

"Both women agree: Slash is the whole thing. For both of them, and presumably for a number of their fans as well, slash, in itself, literally is sex." I don't want to jump into stereotypes or be disrespectful, but I can't help but notice both these women are well into middle age and are quite overweight. Perhaps the reason this IS sex for them is in part due to their lack of sexual options in real life?

Being secure in myself, in watching scenes it doesn't matter, f/f, m/f whatever, I don't feel the need to put myself in the actor/actresses place in any way. I'm not the ideal size 6 or whatever and I really don't care too much. Does not being an 18 year old slim waisted perky chested girl with tight clothes limit a woman's options? Sure. But it is similar for men I'd think. Does that mean watching videos and reading stories with sex isubstitutes sex for them because they feel they can't get it in real life? Maybe. But I think younger people often think that sex is only for them and don't realize that most people as they age give up those 'ideal' body types and issues and find someone based more on compatability and overall attraction not just appearance, so not being that perfect type isn't as much of a hindrance as you might think. I don't think women who like m/m stories or vids are interested solely to avoid comparison to their own bodies or because they lack other options. I think it's an interest for them, that's it. You can't really pin down interest like that as having a single sole reason. Attraction, desire and sex are really so much more complicated than that.

[zland666]

I don't have an issue with it, except when the female women present the men sometimes as only, as young sage said, "a woman with a penis".

 

Wrote an article it myself, and though it was at my own blog, the link was posted at one of my publishers, Dreamspinner Press, so a number of authors from there posted interesting comments, many of whom are straight women who write m/m or as I prefer, gay fiction. Female writers of M/M fiction. I also posted the article on GA, but the comments from widely known authors are at wordpress.

 

I would say some lesbian writers can be included in that also, as on the writer forum one day, one asked "what lube do you guys use in a bathtub scene, am writing a sex scene in water"...and I felt like saying, if you have ask, why are you writing about that? Most of their questions were about very graphic details of gay sex. I wanted to ask, why do you feel the need to write about it in that much detail?? Anyway...at my article here or at WP. There's a couple of practical reasons for it, including marketing and this is what's highly popular and high selling at the moment.

 

 

Because us straight females haven't had experience, well I haven't with m/m sex we either have to picture it or watch porn to get how it works(Which by the way i did once and this is how my mom found out i was into this). I love writing about it because it's hot to me:). It's alot less hastle to ask a gay male how that kind of sex works, what it feels like the emotions. All our knowledge on it is from imagination but in order to have it so it isn't slopy in the story and more beliveable this should help you answer those questions you asked

 

A Why were writing about it.

B. Why do they feel the need to write about it.

[Former Member]

I don't have an issue with it, except when the female women present the men sometimes as only, as young sage said, "a woman with a penis".

 

Wrote an article it myself, and though it was at my own blog, the link was posted at one of my publishers, Dreamspinner Press, so a number of authors from there posted interesting comments, many of whom are straight women who write m/m or as I prefer, gay fiction. Female writers of M/M fiction. I also posted the article on GA, but the comments from widely known authors are at wordpress.

 

I would say some lesbian writers can be included in that also, as on the writer forum one day, one asked "what lube do you guys use in a bathtub scene, am writing a sex scene in water"...and I felt like saying, if you have ask, why are you writing about that? Most of their questions were about very graphic details of gay sex. I wanted to ask, why do you feel the need to write about it in that much detail?? Anyway...at my article here or at WP. There's a couple of practical reasons for it, including marketing and this is what's highly popular and high selling at the moment.

 

 

Because us straight females haven't had experience, well I haven't with m/m sex we either have to picture it or watch porn to get how it works(Which by the way i did once and this is how my mom found out i was into this). I love writing about it because it's hot to me:). It's alot less hastle to ask a gay male how that kind of sex works, what it feels like the emotions. All our knowledge on it is from imagination but in order to have it so it isn't slopy in the story and more beliveable this should help you answer those questions you asked

 

A Why were writing about it.

B. Why do they feel the need to write about it.

 

I don't have a problem with that, for gay males who don't mind being asked the question and don't mind answering that it. It might be less hassle but just imo, in general asking stuff like that, seems rather an invasion of privacy or kind of crass. But people have different levels of what they find acceptable.

 

Those were hypothetical questions of sheer incredulousness only thought of in that particular instance. I would never ask them of anyone because I already know the answers. But yes, I would rather have it answered or researched than having to endure more badly written gay sex by a woman (or man for that matter).

[Daisy]

I didn't really like commenting on these sorts of things at first .

 

I first got into 'gay fiction or erotica' when I was probably around 17, maybe it was 16? I was in 6th form anyway. And procrastinating from doing school work, as always. I was on Amazon trawling through book lists that people had made and recommended - can't remember now what I was looking for at the time, but I was a known bookaholic growing up - so was probably just a distraction finding random things. And I'd discovered that useful thing where they let you peek at the first chapter. And one of the books on one of the random lists happened to be gay fiction. It was so completely different, and I hadn't really thought about it before then. I think I found others by clicking on various links to other lists with similar things on. And there was that peek thing. And of course I just wanted to read more.

 

It's strange. Part of me was reading it because some of the things were explicit and I'd never read anything like it - or experienced it yet - and I certainly hadn't watched porn. And I was sexually excited by it. Some of it was definitely more explicit than any trashy novel could ever be. Another part of me was reading because it was just a new social environment - I like new things and experiences and learning - and in a way that's what I get out of reading - even fiction. And I soon discovered by one of the books on amazon that a lot were actually free - one of the publishers strangely put the books free online as an e-book as well as selling it. So there, that's how it began.

 

And it soon became an addiction . I was doing my alevels and this free resource was available as a distraction. And I find it hard not to put a book down until I've finished it. I was hating studying and just wanted any escape - and this became it while I was pretending I was studying.

 

In the process I stumbled into communities like this - and that is what has kept me here. I've no idea really whether there are other free resources online for novels - I've not really looked - and I'm not sure what I would be looking for (how to search for it) - the non gay genre I mean. But yeah, the community is a large part of it now - another learning environment , and well for the people I e-met.

 

But over the same time period my normal reading has completely dropped off, apart from academic. I've been really busy so that it was one or the other - and the internet thing won out. So now I'm used to it - and it seems 'normal' .

 

I have wondered what it says about me. And I have to say I am still pretty clueless. At first entering into communities such as this was a big deal - and I only watched from afar - because I felt like I was intruding - and was a freak - or certainly seen to be one - and I didn't want to be looked down on or publicly called out. That's soon shook off as I felt safe here.

 

So what it says about me? I have an addictive personality. The internet thing is certainly part of that - and the reading. I find an interest and get my hooks into it quite passionately for awhile. Quite often that interest is there to squash out any other responsibilities I have that I want to hide from - like actually writing my thesis which I should be doing at this very moment. It's something I am going to have to learn to control.

 

Other than that - reading those books at the time jump started I think me questioning myself about my sexuality and all that jazz , and that's still ongoing. It certainly added to something which was confusing as hell on its own. I still don't understand myself. But I've certainly learnt a lot while reading all this stuff and more (and I do read outside of m/m).

 

So yeah, that's my two cents Not much insight, but I've learnt to live with that .

Edited August 27, 2010 by Smarties

[shawn9]

I haven't replied to this thread yet - was curious what other people thought.

 

For me, the curious fact here is that one of the straight women interviewed flat out admits that she's had gender identity issues. There is a major difference between straight women who use gay fiction as a method for erotic exploration versus those who use it as a means for dealing with gender identity issues. It sounds like one of the author's interviewed really doesn't identify as a straight woman, even if she's decided to live her life that way, simply because she's forced to make a binary choice.

 

Maybe it's because I'm from a generation in which gay is 'ordinary' whereas trans is off the radar, but it absolutely never occurred to me the extent to which my own involvement in gay fiction, erotica, or porn (no, not here - haha) had to do with gender identity. I used fiction as a means of creating characters and storylines that better reflected my own personal thoughts and feelings. And what's interesting is that my SO read some stuff I wrote - stuff that I never shared here or elsewhere - and in the back of his mind, he thought "There is no way a straight woman would know these things or have these thoughts or feelings. This could only come from a gay male mind." Except....he didn't tell me at the time. I figured that this WAS something normal for straight women. And I never thought about the fact that I'd had a fictitious parallel universe running in my head since I was 12 in which the primary figures were always male & switched from heterosexual interests to homosexual interests when I was about 17 or so, the time when my own orientation became more clearly defined to me.

 

What is funny now is I realize how much the same stuff bugs me that bothers others who have posted above. The "female with a penis" character annoys the ever-loving-snot out of me too, and I've never been into stories like that either.

[Daisy]

http://gehayi.livejo...ml?format=light

 

Another a bit angry response to that same article. I just ran across it and realised it was talking about the same thing.

 

Interview With an Agenda

Yesterday I read an interview in Out Magazine with alex_beecroft and erastes--and a commentary on the interview here.

 

 

I'm afraid that the interview and the commentary are not very accurate and are, in some ways, rather offensive. The Gawker article starts off this way:

 

It's a bit of a joke that straight guys are into "hot girl-on-girl action," but what's new is the burgeoning industry of "M/M romances," erotic novels about gay men written by and for straight women. What's that about?

 

From where I'm sitting, what both the original article and Gawker's interpretation of it are about are built-in assumptions, agendas and tropes. I counted twelve tropes. You may find more.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2010 by Smarties

[Amelia]

http://gehayi.livejo...ml?format=light

 

Another a bit angry response to that same article. I just ran across it and realised it was talking about the same thing.

 

 

 

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I feel like Gehayi's points were a bit over the top. Yes, both women stated that they were not on the "straight" end of the spectrum. While I don't write M/M romance, I very much enjoy reading it and I am on the straight end of the continuum. I am glad that the article was edited to say women instead of straight, but it seems more like the author was trying to make the point that they were female and not that she was ignoring the bisexuality piece.

 

"It isn't all about the porn," Beecroft laments.

 

"I don't believe you," I say.

 

"I know. People don't, and it's such an annoyance. Do you think a 300-page book with three sex scenes in it is all about the sex?"

 

(And please note--the article writer admits in this passage that she's already decided that she doesn't believe what the writers are telling her about their own writing.)

 

An awful lot of people read romance novels for the sex scenes. I do not choose male erotica becuase of the abundance of sex scenes, but I certainly hope to read some sex when I buy a m/m romance novel. I don't believe the author of the article was insinuating that Beecroft only writes for the porn, but I do believe she was saying that for a significant number of people, part of the allure is the sex. I understand that there is a distinction between sex and porn - but have you read some of the prolific m/m authors out there? I think many of their scenes are much more explicit than you find in a typical heterosexual romance. Not all - this is not a blanket statement - but I am not sure why Gehayi was so quick to take offense to what was clearly a statement made half in jest - and certainly far from false.

 

"dirty stories starring men sticking it to other men." Not only does that present a value judgment--that books containing sex are necessarily "dirty" and, by implication, bad-

 

Dirty does not equal bad. Although I admit this is a strong statement.

 

"meant for the types of suburban ladies who pick up those paperbacks with Fabio on the cover." Fabio Lanzoni isn't ON romance covers anymore.

 

So? They still look like Fabio. Same difference - and I do think she is right, although some gay men are certainly more interested in these stories than the ones she is referring to.

 

"the types of suburban ladies who pick up THOSE paperbacks" sound just a trifle dismissive of the intended audience to you?

 

They are out there and would probably describe themselves the same way. There is no getting around it - I am sure many don't look like that, but the statement isn't untrue.

 

Did Not Do The Research: Both Wilson and Gawker state that m/m romance originated with slash fanfic. This is not true. Male/Male romance has been around in stories since at least the myth of Zeus and Ganymede, the Biblical David and Jonathan, and the Epic of Gilgamesh. And there was a substantial trade in pulp paperbacks that dealt with male/male and female/female romance since at least the 1940s, as anyone who cared to do the research could discover.

 

Ridiculous. Yes, we all know it has been around forever, but it got popular and prolific with the onset of slash.

 

You Fail English Forever: "While the men described in m/m novels are invariably described as looking like Roman gods..."

 

The correct expression is "Greek gods." I've never heard of anyone described as looking like a Roman god.

 

Ummm... Can we say nit picky?

 

 

In my opinion - it is responses like this that give feminism a bad name. Pick your battles - the ones chosen in this article seem to be a bit of a stretch.

[Daisy]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I feel like Gehayi's points were a bit over the top. Yes, both women stated that they were not on the "straight" end of the spectrum. While I don't write M/M romance, I very much enjoy reading it and I am on the straight end of the continuum. I am glad that the article was edited to say women instead of straight, but it seems more like the author was trying to make the point that they were female and not that she was ignoring the bisexuality piece.

 

An awful lot of people read romance novels for the sex scenes. I do not choose male erotica becuase of the abundance of sex scenes, but I certainly hope to read some sex when I buy a m/m romance novel. I don't believe the author of the article was insinuating that Beecroft only writes for the porn, but I do believe she was saying that for a significant number of people, part of the allure is the sex. I understand that there is a distinction between sex and porn - but have you read some of the prolific m/m authors out there? I think many of their scenes are much more explicit than you find in a typical heterosexual romance. Not all - this is not a blanket statement - but I am not sure why Gehayi was so quick to take offense to what was clearly a statement made half in jest - and certainly far from false.

 

Dirty does not equal bad. Although I admit this is a strong statement.

 

So? They still look like Fabio. Same difference - and I do think she is right, although some gay men are certainly more interested in these stories than the ones she is referring to.

 

They are out there and would probably describe themselves the same way. There is no getting around it - I am sure many don't look like that, but the statement isn't untrue.

 

Ridiculous. Yes, we all know it has been around forever, but it got popular and prolific with the onset of slash.

 

Ummm... Can we say nit picky?

 

 

In my opinion - it is responses like this that give feminism a bad name. Pick your battles - the ones chosen in this article seem to be a bit of a stretch.

 

I agree that the lady who wrote that is over the top - and was searching for reasons to slate it. There were some more sensible ideas in the comments, or at least reflections.

 

But personally I do feel that she had a point about the interview/article. I did think that the intention or the maybe overall affect of it was a bit too simplistic? or not that, but it did rely on some assumptions and it didn't examine issues properly. It did seem to have a preconceived idea - and it was turning these women into something to be ogled at - the "other" as she said. I haven't re-read the article since - apart from skimming the first section just earlier - but I think my impression was that it wasn't welcoming and it put me on the defensive (or that could be talking about this topic ). But it certainly was interesting - because those women are completely different to me.