9.11

[centexhairysub]

  Okay, I can tell you from my experience with counseling that this actually happens more than most people would suspect.  Not always the act itself, althought that happens more than you would suspect; but the desire or feeling that by doing this they are fullfilling a desire from the past.  Often the kids are simply surrogates for the parents; but that isn't always the case either. 

 

  I think Sharon is right that in five or six years it wouldn't be quite as creepy as it would be now...  No matter what Will looks like and acts like he is still only fourteen.  It would not be the age difference that I would object to so much as Will's current age; well that and the fact that Brad and Scott were best friends and lovers when they were just a little older than Will is now...

 

  I think that both Sharon and Tim are right in that Brad's reaction would be violent.  So like Tim said, unless you are using this to move the story forward in some important way; why destroy Brad and Will's relationship, that has just gotten back on an even keel; much less Brad and Scott's, which would never recover. 

 

  Plus, their will they or won't they flirting is actually kind of hot; but the real thing is rarely as good... 

[Never Surrender]

Personally gotta say no! Do it if you really need to in order to move the story forward, but i think doing it for the hell of it would be unnecessary as all it would serve to do is to destroy will and brads relationship. I hope that will would have better sense than that, unless hes about to fall off the rails and become a wild child (which i cant see right now!). I think brad would see it as a major betrayal and that would cause him to raise questions about wills emancipation, even if he didnt end up following through with revoking it, etc.

[mmike1969]

Alright, I'd like to pose a question to those of you reading this forum. Actually, two of them.

 

1. Should Will sleep with Scott Slater?

2. If Will does sleep with him, how would Brad react?

Because everyone else is saying no, I am going to say:

 

1). Sure! Will is sleeping around with everyone else.

 

2) If Brad found out, he'd probably kill someone... So don't tell him! Duh!

[Daddydavek]

Just caught up this thread and my vote is also no.   I think it's way hotter for Will and Scott to flirt and act naughty about it than the actual deed would be. That would continue to push Brad's buttons without causing a major explosion.   If it indeed is necessary to move the story along I expect it will happen.  Otherwise, yuck!  However, Will is adventurous and Scott is reckless so anything could happen.

[Mark Arbour]

Thanks for your feedback!  To be honest, I hadn't really planned on linking up Scott and Will, at least not now.  But I wouldn't rule it out if I needed to do it to move the story (not this one, but a future one) forward. 

[Mark Arbour]

I'm putting the finishing touches on Chapter 17.  It should be posted within the next hour or so. 

[Never Surrender]

Really enjoyed this chapter. I found brads behaviour interesting, in that he wasnt happy with wills actions but still jumped in as a defence when isidore started to condemn him! Though i suspect this may partly have been due to JPs lack of reaction, as hes likely to trust JPs judgement. Glad jack is starting to see the point of the argument, and i agree that marie is unlikely to change until shes mature enough to understand the consequences of her actions. Looking forward to seeing what happens next with will, and how isidores decisions are going to impact their relationship.

[methodwriter85]

 

 Your observations on the differences between Will and JJ are interesting. I don't think that JJ is as hung up on family as Will is, and in fact, I think he looks for excuses to avoid family situations. I think that for JJ, his family comes with obligations that are tedious at times. For Will, it is truly one of his life's key forces.

 

     I think JJ looked to his brothers and saw that they were so caught up in family loyalty, so he didn't really have to be. The thing is, JJ's essentially's Jeanine's child, while Will was Brad's. I don't think Jeanine was ever really that caught up in the grandeur of the Schluter/Crampton family tradition, whereas Brad probably did install that within Will. (Only Will is much more fervent about it.)

 

     I think he became much more loyal to the figure skating world than he did with his family, to a fault. I think JJ is probably bonded closer to his family now than he was before the molestation reveal, but I don't think family is life or death to him the way it is for Will. If JJ ever had a falling out with his family to the level that Will had when he ran away to Hawaii, he'd simply move towards making close friends in whatever city he settled in and create a new surrogate family like he did with the figure skating world. (Likely Chicago, New York City, possibly London.) Will would never be able to live without repairing his familial relationships, but JJ probably would be fine.

Edited June 26, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Miles Long]

Alright, I'd like to pose a question to those of you reading this forum.  Actually, two of them.

 

1.  Should Will sleep with Scott Slater?

2.  If Will does sleep with him, how would Brad react? 

 

I've been trying (quasi successfully) to GA detox for a few days so I missed this and since I am all for kicking dead horses to make sure they are really dead:

 

NOOOOO!, Will should not sleep with Scott Slater; aside from the age gap Scott's a ginormo douche.

 

And if some crazy, drunken, mishap occurs, I think Brad would go AGRO, batshit, bananas on Scott for taking advantage of not only his very young son but his kindness (Scott would be dead if it weren't for Brad)

 

Thanks again for Chap 17...it was a great reason to throw my detox resolve away   .

[Miles Long]

     I think JJ looked to his brothers and saw that they were so caught up in family loyalty, he didn't really have to be. The thing is, JJ's essentially's Jeanine's child, while Will was Brad's. I don't think Jeanine was ever really that caught up in the grandeur of the Schluter/Crampton family tradition, whereas Brad probably did install that within Will. (Only Will is much more fervent about it.)

 

     I think he became much more loyal to the figure skating world than he did with his family, to a fault. I think JJ is probably bonded closer to his family now than he was before the molestation reveal, but I don't think family is life or death to him the way it is for Will. If JJ ever had a falling out with his family to the level that Will had when he ran away to Hawaii, he'd simply move towards making close friends in whatever city he settled in and create a new surrogate family like he did with the figure skating world. (Likely Chicago, New York City, possibly London.) Will would never be able to live without repairing his familial relationships, but JJ probably would be fine.

 

I'm not sure about JJ thinking that he doesn't have to be loyal because Will and Darius have it covered.  If I were him, my lack of loyalty would be directly correlated to the fact I am an outsider, and not in the way that Will sometimes feels, but really not part of that family.

 

Everyone has failed JJ; Jeanine has most of all.  I also really struggle with her not knowing something was going on with JJ's sexual abuse.  Michael, his former body guard (why isn't he dead?), was always in his crap.  Besides I also figure since she had no qualms letting that jerk photograph Will and the pictures were on the same chip how could she not know about JJ.  

 

I wonder what Hank would think if she knew about Jeanine's antics in Norway and the revelation about JJ's molestation.  If Hank can't handle a little pot, I don't figure her being able to brush aside child molestation and pornography as a by product of temporary crazy.

 

Anyhoo...I look forward to hearing JJ's perspective one day (HINT HINT ).

[methodwriter85]

 

Everyone has failed JJ; Jeanine has most of all.  I also really struggle with her not knowing something was going on with JJ's sexual abuse.

 

     I think the thing about JJ is that Will's rebellion of summer and fall 2000 really did take up so much attention and concern of the family that no one really noticed the son who wasn't visibily causing waves. They assumed because JJ was part of a tightly-controlled environment like figure skating he'd be fine, and it wasn't until Will settled down and Brad found out that JJ was flunking out of school that they started really noticing that things were not okay with him. I thought that was incredibly true to family dynamics- the loud and in-your-face sibling gets the notice, while the one who generally obeys the rules doesn't.

 

     Jeanine in many ways reminded me of the classic stage mother- because Jeanine never really did anything for herself, her identity became consumed into being the Star's Mother, and if she had any suspicions about JJ's coach, she probably buried them subconciously because Jeanine convinced herself that this guy was going to get JJ to Torino in 2006, just like JJ convinced himself that the coach really did have his best interest at heart.

 

 

 If I were him, my lack of loyalty would be directly correlated to the fact I am an outsider, and not in the way that Will sometimes feels, but really not part of that family.

 

 

     I'm not sure I think JJ sees himself as a total outsider to the family- I don't think it's Cal in East of Eden. I think he's simply more of a typical teenager in that he's way more interested in his friends and activities than he is with his family.

 

     But it has been set up that Darius and Will were always the favored ones by JP, Stefan, Brad, and Robbie, and JJ was the afterthought. (Except for with Jeanine, and later on Tiffany and Matt.) It would then make sense for JJ to seek out a surrogate family where he's the center star, i.e. figure skating.

[B1ue]

Hadn't noticed this until my second read-through, but the family only took an hour to pack after dinner. Considering the people involved, and that the trip was spur of the moment, that seems like an awesome statement. I can pack that fast. In fact, I've gone from bed to car for what turned out to be a four day trip with zero notice within fifteen minutes. But while anyone could do that, not many people actually do. Especially when there's no time pressure.

 

The obvious conclusion is that all of them are so used to traveling, and do it so often, that the motions are down to muscle memory, and that they probably have a bag with basic travel necessities (but stuff they don't necessarily use in daily life, like a spare unused toothbrush, extra shaving kit, the like) packed at all times. That even Stef can throw together a suitcase with minimum fuss when there's no particular rush is something I'd have flat thought improbable, but maybe he has a sense of urgency that JP doesn't.

[Gene Splicer PHD]

I have a really wealthy client whose got a private jet. One of the pilots is a buddy, and I once asked about how they always seem to be ready to fly at really short notice. He said that they keep a couple of packed suitcases for the people that travel most, along with clothing that's just "part of the plane inventory" either on the plane, or pretty much ready to go at any given moment. Most of the time they only fly from house to house (or house and yacht, or the ranch, take your pick) so knowing what the family needs is pretty predictable. They don't need to take much along when they go, because they have stuff at all the houses.

 

In fact, we replaced the client's laptop at one of the houses, and bought three more, making them all exactly the same so they could be sent to the other houses. He didn't want to have to remember to take it along. I envision he does the same thing with clothes and other stuff, just so he doesn't have to worry about stuff like that.

 

One of the things Mark doesn't talk about much is the service staff at Escorial. I imagine there are a few house maids and assistants floating around, making sure this kind of stuff gets handled.

 

And yeah travel is really routine and automatic - a business day for this guy can involve stops at three or four places between Florida and Northern Michigan. He lives full time on the yacht in the BVI, and he likes to be home by dinner, though.

[Miles Long]

     I think the thing about JJ is that Will's rebellion of summer and fall 2000 really did take up so much attention and concern of the family that no one really noticed the son who wasn't visibily causing waves. They assumed because JJ was part of a tightly-controlled environment like figure skating he'd be fine, and it wasn't until Will settled down and Brad found out that JJ was flunking out of school that they started really noticing that things were not okay with him. I thought that was incredibly true to family dynamics- the loud and in-your-face sibling gets the notice, while the one who generally obeys the rules doesn't.

 

     Jeanine in many ways reminded me of the classic stage mother- because Jeanine never really did anything for herself, her identity became consumed into being the Star's Mother, and if she had any suspicions about JJ's coach, she probably buried them subconciously because Jeanine convinced herself that this guy was going to get JJ to Torino in 2006, just like JJ convinced himself that the coach really did have his best interest at heart.

 

 

 

     I'm not sure I think JJ sees himself as a total outsider to the family- I don't think it's Cal in East of Eden. I think he's simply more of a typical teenager in that he's way more interested in his friends and activities than he is with his family.

 

     But it has been set up that Darius and Will were always the favored ones by JP, Stefan, Brad, and Robbie, and JJ was the afterthought. (Except for with Jeanine, and later on Tiffany and Matt.) It would then make sense for JJ to seek out a surrogate family where he's the center star, i.e. figure skating.

 

I agree completely about focus being so diverted to Will that JJ fell through the cracks.  It is a strategy I relied on as a kid to get away with murder.  

 

Yeah, Jeanine was/is a stage mother, just one with a moral compass so skewed that she was willing to sacrifice anything (JJ's well being, Tiffany's esteem) to further JJ's career.  I do not agree that she had his best interests at heart, though.  I seriously worry about Maddy.

 

I do not see JJ as the typical teenager, none of the Crampton/Schluter kids are typical, their wealth and unique family situation prevents that.  Sure JJ is of the age that friends and interests are really important, but I also think that he especially immerses himself into skating (does he have any friends other than Alistair?) because he doesn't really have anything else.

 

The truth is we don't really know what's going on in JJ's head, we can only speculate because we haven't had the luxury of the insight of his perspective.  JJ right now is a bit flat, but I think he has the most potential given what's happened to him in his short life.  Unfortunately, I can easily see him following down a similar path that Brian did, which would be heart breaking as JJ is in my my top eight.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Miles Long

[centexhairysub]

While I found the issue with Will needling his father and to a lesser extent Stef by buying the house, sort of, without talking to them; the real meat of the chapter was at the dinner table.

 

It is obvious that Brad has never really gotten over the rupture with Isidore back when she backed Billy over him.  While I don't know nor didn't then agree with how she handled the situation; I completely understood it.  Billy was her biological child and had been beaten pretty badly.  She reacted as a mother cub.  I really thought that after Billy's death and Brad doing the painting and handling so much of the funeral that they had repaired their relationship.  Isidore really stood by Brad and Robbie during Robbie's trial in Paris and used all her family connections to help.  She has gone out of the way over the years to support all the kids.  That is why I am having such a hard time as to why she is digging her heels in on this.  I sort of understand Claire, she is supporting her daughter, even if the daughter did lie; but is Isidore just backing Claire up because they have a tighter relationship?  I know being from France that Isidore would consider manners and behaviour really important and neither Brad or Will are immaculate with either but is that enough to cause another rupture? 

 

Well, once again, Mark has sucked me into a story to the point that I spend hours every week reading and re-reading and then analyzing every little nuance to each chapter...  Bad Mark, Bad Mark....

[PrivateTim]

She has gone out of the way over the years to support all the kids.  That is why I am having such a hard time as to why she is digging her heels in on this. 

 

Because the author needs her to.

[Mark Arbour]

While I found the issue with Will needling his father and to a lesser extent Stef by buying the house, sort of, without talking to them; the real meat of the chapter was at the dinner table.

 

It is obvious that Brad has never really gotten over the rupture with Isidore back when she backed Billy over him.  While I don't know nor didn't then agree with how she handled the situation; I completely understood it.  Billy was her biological child and had been beaten pretty badly.  She reacted as a mother cub.  I really thought that after Billy's death and Brad doing the painting and handling so much of the funeral that they had repaired their relationship.  Isidore really stood by Brad and Robbie during Robbie's trial in Paris and used all her family connections to help.  She has gone out of the way over the years to support all the kids.  That is why I am having such a hard time as to why she is digging her heels in on this.  I sort of understand Claire, she is supporting her daughter, even if the daughter did lie; but is Isidore just backing Claire up because they have a tighter relationship?  I know being from France that Isidore would consider manners and behaviour really important and neither Brad or Will are immaculate with either but is that enough to cause another rupture? 

 

Well, once again, Mark has sucked me into a story to the point that I spend hours every week reading and re-reading and then analyzing every little nuance to each chapter...  Bad Mark, Bad Mark....

 

I'll start by referencing my response to (your) reviews: 

I think that Isidore is looking at the situation with Will through the lens of her own values. When Will called her out for focusing on external appearances, I think he was spot-on. So for her, she's seeing Will's behavior as being rude and obnoxious, something she finds truly reprehensible, and she undoubtedly feels the same way about Brad. In that context, it makes sense that she would be more comfortable with Claire and her family, who probably echo her own values in that regard.

JP is very upset over Marie's seeming unwillingness to admit when she's wrong, and to admit it. For him, this is a key concept, and that's why he's being such a hard ass. I'll bet Isidore views these outbursts from Brad and Will with the same type of concern, and feels it is her duty to help reform them.

 

 

So while it looks like Isidore is being intransigent, she probably sees this as a fight to make sure Will grows up to be a cultured gentleman, and not a boorish oaf.  That would be very important to her, and not so important to Brad, depending on how they defined those two terms.

 

Because the author needs her to.

 

Cynic.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Mark Arbour

[methodwriter85]

   To be honest, in terms of having your characters act out of character for the sake of plot, I really didn't think that for Isidore's reaction. She's never been that strongly developed of a character (definitely not like Tonto) despite being in the story for "38" years, so she's a bit of an enigma. It's been strongly hinted that Isidore grew up in a strongly upper-class French family, so I don't have a problem with her having a very strong feeling on etiquette.

 

 

Sure JJ is of the age that friends and interests are really important, but I also think that he especially immerses himself into skating (does he have any friends other than Alistair?) because he doesn't really have anything else.

 

    Mark's actually set the seeds for that when JJ was 9 or so, in If It Fits. Stefan observed that while Darius and Will were seemingly good and talented at everything they picked up like surfing and art, JJ was a cheerful kid but wasn't really that good at anything. Matt in Bloodlines noted the same thing, wondering if JJ would ever find something he was good at, and that's where skating came in.

 

    Doing what JJ is shooting for doesn't really leave much in terms of having a lot of friends or activities, so it makes sense he doesn't have much of a life outside of figure skating. That's just the sacrifice of being in a highly competitive sport when you're 15. It remains to be seen if JJ will wind up regretting that choice.

 

 

 JJ right now is a bit flat, but I think he has the most potential given what's happened to him in his short life.  Unfortunately, I can easily see him following down a similar path that Brian did, which would be heart breaking as JJ is in my my top eight.

 

      I'm not sure I see him going the Brian route, but it does feel like there's a ticking time bomb of JJ's paternity, vs. the fact that he's in a very public sport that demands a very pristine, wholesome image. Born to a crackwhore being fucked by her uncle just doesn't really jibe with that, and if JJ's famous enough by the time of the 2006 Olympics, tabloids are going to jump all over it.

 

      I do see JJ having a period somewhere in his early/mid-20's when he tries to make up for all the time he lost in terms of social interactions with his peers. Child stars have talked at length about that kind of thing, and I'm thinking JJ will go through something similiar. I can also see JJ, like Robbie, trying to "buy" friendship/relationships...I'm betting 23-year old JJ is going to be picking up a lot of bar tabs for his "friends." Which will put him in stark contrast to Will, who at 14 seems to have fine-tuned his b.s. meter for who's a friend and who's just trying to take advantage.

Edited June 28, 2013 by methodwriter85

[MJ85]

I think by now I'm just completely over anything to do with Will.

[JimCarter]

So predictable all it takes to get Brad from pissed to excited is a group of hot guys fighting for waves.  

[methodwriter85]

 

I think by now I'm just completely over anything to do with Will.

 

    I do think that's understandable, given that he's been a protagonist for three straight stories now. Hopefully 2002 will see somebody else- I personally would welcome another Wade/Matt story, being that 2002 is their college graduation year and there's plenty of angst for them to work through.

 

    Anyway, I really liked the bit where JP muses on how quiet the world is being right now. Of course, there were signs- like in March 2001 the Taliban started destroying relgious monuments, but yeah...2000 and the first three quarters of 2001 were fairly quiet. 1999 had major stuff going on, like Bill Clinton's impeachment, Columbine, the Kosovo revolution, but not much seemed to have happened in 2000.

 

     I remember my biggest concern the morning of September 11th was whether or not I'd get in the school play. Man, it'll be interesting to see how they react to things that change.

[PrivateTim]

How any one can be mad about anything for more than five minutes on Maui is beyond me.

 

I think the Will & Scott hooking up thing has been laid to rest because what ever intrigue or attraction there was for Will about Scott was dispatched when Will saw what a major douche Scott is.

 

I hope Stef can do a Hawaiian/Pacific motif. There is nothing more annoying than a house in Hawaii that looks like a NY penthouse or Versailles.

 

Still a lot of set-up going on. At some point things will come to a head in Palo Alto and John has to deal with Will and the issues between them.

 

Brad didn't admit, but the Sprecklesville house is probably worth twice what Will paid for it because it is unfinished.

[Mark Arbour]

   

    Anyway, I really liked the bit where JP muses on how quiet the world is being right now. Of course, there were signs- like in March 2001 the Taliban started destroying relgious monuments, but yeah...2000 and the first three quarters of 2001 were fairly quiet. 1999 had major stuff going on, like Bill Clinton's impeachment, Columbine, the Kosovo revolution, but not much seemed to have happened in 2000.

 

 

I really think that's a bunch of crap.  It's so easy to look back with perfect vision on the past and see these 'signs', but nothing about the Taliban destroying monuments in March would translate into the destruction of the Twin Towers in September.  The 'signs' that seem so apparent now were not obvious then.  It's kind of like being annoyed that you didn't pick the right lottery numbers.

 

How any one can be mad about anything for more than five minutes on Maui is beyond me.

 

I think the Will & Scott hooking up thing has been laid to rest because what ever intrigue or attraction there was for Will about Scott was dispatched when Will saw what a major douche Scott is.

 

I hope Stef can do a Hawaiian/Pacific motif. There is nothing more annoying than a house in Hawaii that looks like a NY penthouse or Versailles.

 

Still a lot of set-up going on. At some point things will come to a head in Palo Alto and John has to deal with Will and the issues between them.

 

Brad didn't admit, but the Sprecklesville house is probably worth twice what Will paid for it because it is unfinished.

 

I think you're right about Will's attitude toward Scott.  If you notice, their whole relationship/demeanor changed, and Will ended up taking charge and directing Scott. I think that's the external illustration of the epiphany Will had about him.

 

Hawaiian/Pacific Motif?  Post a pic or two, show me what you mean.

 

I don't know that Will and John have to have a major 'repair the bond' conversation.  Not all guys do that (Darius comes to mind), and they'd be quite happy to just assume that things were fine, and to move on.  In fact, I'd hypothesize this is the norm with men (especially straight men) as opposed to having a big conversation about their feelings. 

 

I can't imagine that a quick-sale of an unfinished house wouldn't present an awesome investment opportunity for someone willing to invest the cash to finish it up. 

[centexhairysub]

I really liked this chapter for many reasons but especially because of the JP narration.  He is like the eye of a hurricane and Will is the the storm swirling around.  I think the dual narration between Will and JP really works because they are so polar opposites from each other but have the same core of strength running through each of them. 

 

I don't quite understand everyone acting like the issue between John and Will is so precarious.  I think they are in much better shape now then they were after John slept with Zach.  The issue with Marie and John talking about Will's relationship in front of outsiders was a fissure opening but not one that should keep them apart.  I don't think the physical side is that big of a deal to either of them.  The fact that for most of their lives they have been best friends/cousins/and sort of lovers means they are going to have their ups and downs. 

Upson Downs...HaHaHa..., if you don't get the reference; then you should all turn in your gay cards immediately...

 

Will understands how to wind Brad up but he also understands how to bring him back to get him centered again.  This is going to cause Brad years of aggravations and Will years of enjoyment. 

 

I am also not quite understanding everyone freaking out about Scott/Lark...  He really hasn't changed in all the years since he was introduced.  Did anyone think that facing a life and death situation was going to turn him into Father Tim???

[B1ue]

I hope Stef can do a Hawaiian/Pacific motif. There is nothing more annoying than a house in Hawaii that looks like a NY penthouse or Versailles.

I'll reserve full judgment until I can see exactly what you mean, but my kneejerk reaction is to disagree. I hate "Old West" and Southwest themed houses here in California. Especially when it's done by someone with no genuine respect or empathy for the culture surrounding it. I can just barely stand it in business in places like Santa Barbara or where my parents live, where it's unifying theme for the entire community.

 

If nothing else, I've always felt interior decorating should be able to fit the personality/needs of the user. If Will could use or favor a cleaner, more metallic or modern look, why not go for it? Who else is going to be bothered by it?