Thorn Wilde Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 I don't know of any off the top of my head other than the rising use of possessive 's for words that end in s, primarily because the extra s sound is vocalized. Which just annoys the crap out of me, to be honest. Are you saying that NOT adding the extra s is the correct way? So: Silas' heart, Chris' boyfriend and so on is correct and not just me refusing to add the s (Chris's boyfriend simply looks too weird to me) ? Sorry, Tim. I agree with Cia. This "s's" thing is a result of educators' attempt to use phonetics as a teaching method for English. It has limits which are being ignored by many. I believe possessive s in words that end in s is correct in British English. Only in singular, though, of course. So, 'Chris's boyfriend', but 'the Thompsons' cat'.
Site Administrator Cia Posted June 17, 2015 Site Administrator Posted June 17, 2015 The possessive apostrophe s for words ending in s rather than just using the apostrophe is a new development, and many learned to not use it. Up til last year both methods were accepted in Chicago Manual of Style, but in their 2015 edition, they moved to the 's being the only accepted format for words ending in s... with some exceptions, of course. It throws me visually every time I read it, but I outlined the rules for possessive s for words ending in s in the comments section of my Grammar Rodeo #4 blog post.
Timothy M. Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Sorry, Tim. I agree with Cia. This "s's" thing is a result of educators' attempt to use phonetics as a teaching method for English. It has limits which are being ignored by many. no need to feel sorry for me. I was very happy Cia was saying the old and better way was the one I use. I believe possessive s in words that end in s is correct in British English. Only in singular, though, of course. So, 'Chris's boyfriend', but 'the Thompsons' cat'. Ah, right I was taught British English that's why I felt I was doint something wrong writing Chris' boyfriend. The plural I knew about.
Timothy M. Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) I outlined the rules for possessive s for words ending in s in the comments section of my Grammar Rodeo #4 blog post. I remembered reading that and thinking F*** that I'm staying with the way I like. Now I'm again, but at least it was correct somewhere somewhen. Edited June 17, 2015 by Timothy M.
Carlos Hazday Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Y'all, I grew up following the rules set down by Real Academia Española. Established hundreds of years ago, it aimed to standardize the way Spanish was written and spoken. HA! I never had the pleasure of studying English grammar in school, which causes me headaches as I try to conform with rigid rules set by the Chicago Manual of Style and others. All I have to say is this too shall pass. The young people we now scream to, over their destruction of the language and the flaunting of rules, will soon be the ones making the rules. As hard as some find reading Shakespeare today, one day others will have a hard time reading what is written now. Finally, the dollar trumps all rules. I want to know what publisher will object to Clive Cussler or David Baldacci placing commas wherever they damn well please. Or flaunting almost any other rule. But until I get to their level, I guess I'll have to follow the rules set by the powers that be. Just you all wait until prolly replaces probably as an accepted spelling! 3
MikeL Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 Just you all wait until prolly replaces probably as an accepted spelling! Prolly won't be long, y'all. What really boggles my mind is Chicago becoming the seat of English grammar rules. When did that happen?
Drew Espinosa Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 I never had the pleasure of studying English grammar in school, which causes me headaches as I try to conform with rigid rules set by the Chicago Manual of Style and others. All I have to say is this too shall pass. The young people we now scream to, over their destruction of the language and the flaunting of rules, will soon be the ones making the rules. As hard as some find reading Shakespeare today, one day others will have a hard time reading what is written now. That is the amazing thing about language. It is a living thing, subject to change. English has gone through so many changes in the past thousand years. The rules we follow today will be changed or replaced in a matter of decades (maybe less that, given this Technology Age and the Internet). Today there are few words or rules in English that have remained unchanged. The word "with" comes to mind. The only languages that do not change are dead languages, such as Latin. Even then, when Latin was widely spoken two thousand years ago, it changed in various Roman Provinces to form today's Romance Languages. Just remember, when our language changes, it means people are still speaking it. 2
Ashi Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 (edited) Prolly won't be long, y'all. What really boggles my mind is Chicago becoming the seat of English grammar rules. When did that happen? I don't know. The one I studied back in college was the MLA (Modern Language Association) recommendation, and it's pretty much consistent with Chicago Manual of Style Cia is using. The grammar book I use is Little, Brown Essential Handbook for Writers (usually just called Little Brown Book), which is MLA style, I believe. (Yes, I had to dig out the book to see if the title of the book should be underlined or italicized. Inline citing should be underlined). The only difference between MLA, Chicago Manual, and yet another standard, APA (American Psychological Association) is citation style (footnote, bibliography). Otherwise, I would say all American grammar rule is the same. The confusion arises when there are so many people from different backgrounds and countries all join together over the Internet. There are quite a few common mistakes that are now accepted. Back in high school, teachers would never accept using the word "gay" as a noun (it is an adjective). Back in college days, California colleges anyways, we used MLA for linguistic studies papers, and APA for social sciences papers. Don't know why they couldn't adhere to just one standard, because it's confusing to students. (in my Little Brown Book, it lists four different citation standards: MLA, Chicago Manual, APA, and CBE). The "modified block" style of this post is in fact, a MLA recommendation. The indented first line, double-spaced style is APA, and the more traditional format, which I see less usage in our time. BTW, I just happened to see this section about a vs. an in my copy of Little Brown Book. Articles usually trouble native English speakers only in the choice of a versus an: a for words beginning with consonant sounds (a bridge, a uniform), an for words beginning with vowel sounds, including silent h's (an apple, an urge, an hour). (Aaron, Jane E., The Little, Brown Essential Handbook for Writers, Second Edition, 42) Edited June 20, 2015 by Ashi 2
JackBinimbul Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 As far as "herbal" is concerned, I would always use "an herbal", my only exception to this would be dialogue. If the person speaking is likely to pronounce the hard H, I'd use "a herbal", though it pains me to read 1
Site Administrator Graeme Posted June 20, 2015 Author Site Administrator Posted June 20, 2015 LOL -- but for me, "an herbal" is the one that's painful to read because in Australia it is pronounced with the 'H' I think I'll do my best to avoid the word in future, since it seems to cause such confusion. It's easier to avoid the problem than to work out the correct way to solve it. 1
MikeL Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 "Care for some herbal tea?" A good suggestion, Jack. I just realized that the article "a" or "an" refers to the noun "tea", not to the adjective "herbal". I don't think anyone has mentioned that. So, the pronunciation of the adjective determines whether we enjoy a tea or an tea. "Some herbal tea" may feel awkward to some English speakers, because the traditional unit of consumption is a cup, not the whole pot. Which leads us to the less controversial construction "a cup of herbal tea". There is no end to the possibilities. What I need now is a good, strong coffee (or a cup thereof). 1
Zombie Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 A good suggestion, Jack. I just realized that the article "a" or "an" refers to the noun "tea", not to the adjective "herbal". I don't think anyone has mentioned that. So, the pronunciation of the adjective determines whether we enjoy a tea or an tea. "Some herbal tea" may feel awkward to some English speakers, because the traditional unit of consumption is a cup, not the whole pot. Which leads us to the less controversial construction "a cup of herbal tea". doesn't matter if it's a noun or adjective following the article does it? Typically I'll say "would you like some tea or coffee" and I never feel awkward
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