Using Images Of Minors In Ga Galleries

[JackBinimbul]

I have noticed a very common trend on GA that I think needs to be discussed.  I will endeavor to word this as tactfully as I can and explain why I think it is an issue without trying to sound overly judgmental.

 

A very large number of adult authors here use images of minors they have found on the internet in their user galleries.  They use these images as a way of saying "this is what my character(s) look like".  At face value, this seems fairly innocuous. 

 

Here is my issue; a great portion of these stories are portraying these minors in a sexual or at the very least romantic manner. Finding images of REAL minors to provide readers with visual stimulation while reading sexual/romantic themed teen stories is something I find to be very concerning. These are real human beings who are under the age of consent (in most Western countries) and very likely would not like their images being used in this context by much older writers without their knowledge.

 

What are your thoughts on this issue?

[Cia]

I actually agree with Jack, personally. Usually when I find models it's because I'm looking to publish a piece and it's easier to make a cover when my characters have a visual representation. I, however, purchase stock. I don't write teen fiction for the most part, and when I have, I've not done any visuals in that fashion.

 

One thing I want to stress, however, is that members should not be posting images they do not hold copyright or permission to post. We've stated this again and again, for just these reasons. You don't have to profit from an image to violate copyright either. Just because an image is on a website and doesn't have a disclaimer or proper attribution doesn't mean it's okay to copy it; you never know if the person posting it didn't steal it as well. This is also why I don't post any pictures of my children online; you never know what someone else might do with the images.

[Kitt]

I lean towards agreeing with you Jack, but for differing reasons. There is an entire division of law enforcement dedicated to internet abuses, and speciffically child pornography. I worry that eventually someone who is innocently saying simply "This is what Jimmy looks like." will get caught up in a sweep.

[Mikiesboy]

I have noticed a very common trend on GA that I think needs to be discussed.  I will endeavor to word this as tactfully as I can and explain why I think it is an issue without trying to sound overly judgmental.

 

A very large number of adult authors here use images of minors they have found on the internet in their user galleries.  They use these images as a way of saying "this is what my character(s) look like".  At face value, this seems fairly innocuous. 

 

Here is my issue; a great portion of these stories are portraying these minors in a sexual or at the very least romantic manner. Finding images of REAL minors to provide readers with visual stimulation while reading sexual/romantic themed teen stories is something I find to be very concerning. These are real human beings who are under the age of consent (in most Western countries) and very likely would not like their images being used in this context by much older writers without their knowledge.

 

What are your thoughts on this issue?

Have to agree. Personally, I find using pictures of people at anytime concerning and frankly unnecessary. A written description of the character is enough for me - I can see them in my mind's eye and that's enough. 

[C B]

I agree with Jack. I think it needs to be addressed just on the legal grounds that there may be potential issues. On a personal note, it creeps me out a little...

[Puppilull]

I have been on the verge of actually asking people to remove certain pictures, since I find the connection between young teens (below 15 for me since I'm Swedish) and sexual/erotic content disturbing. In that particular case (not on GA) I didn't say anything because the images themselves were not sexual. I still think about it though. So I would very much like to get people to think about this before they post. 

 

Also, as Cia pointed out there are other legal issues to take into consideration. Easy to forget (I'm guilty of that one myself...)

[Graeme]

It's a natural reaction to want to show people what you think one of your characters looks like. But it can be a legal minefield to use the image of someone who is underage (and since this is a USA-based website, that means anyone under the age of 18). The fact that a lot of stories here include sexual behaviour is another can of worms as it potentially links the person in the image to behaviour that may be illegal where they live, let alone implying sexual conduct that they probably don't do and don't want implied that they do. Throw in the problem of copyright that Cia mentions and...

 

Sorry, because I know that there's no ill-intent in what's been happening, but I agree that it's a concern. It is, however, something that I would prefer the members to police themselves, because there's going to be a lot of grey areas, especially around public figures (ie. actors). Ideally, the members making the post will do some research first to ensure that they're not breaching any laws regarding minors, as well as copyright laws.

[Dabeagle]

I disagree. Representations of a character or a found image for a cover is hardly disparaging. I'd also submit that today it is exceedingly common for someone to post images in which they wouldn't be dressed enough for polite company, and I don't see any of those here.

 

Once an image is released whether it be for a celebrity or just a private citizen, all control is lost. Posting it online puts out in the public domain - one has but to skip through Pinterest or Tumblr to find many of the same images represented over and over. Also, even Hollywood uses these images and the characters may do awful things like murder - or maybe just fall in love and have sex. Even novels include such things so the pairing of a general image with a story wherein someone is in a romantic situation is hardly cause for alarm. Let's not forget that this phenomena isn't confined to gay writing, either, but to every person who ever put their characters, underage or otherwise, into a sexual situation.

 

Additionally, there is no universal age at which a character may engage in consensual activity with someone their own age. While many of my stories, the vast majority, take place in the mid to late teens, the fact that teens have sex or fall in love should come as a shock to no one; even Republicans count teenage birth rates.

 

Now, were the picture suggestive in nature, I could see the point. There is 'hey, this is what I think my character looks like' and then there is salaciousness. For instance, I recently shared an image I found online and one of the guys - all fully clothed - was the idea I had for one of my characters. And, yes, he fell in love.

Edited February 27, 2016 by Dabeagle

[Graeme]

I'm looking at this partly from a parent's point of view. Would I want images of my sons used by a group that implies that my son belongs to that group when I know he doesn't, and doesn't want to? (pick the appropriate group of your choice from "Nose Pickers of Australia", "Boys who shave sheep" and "Insect Eaters of the World")

 

I appreciate that there's no malice intent and that the use of the images is intended to be as fictional characters for the sites I've listed above, but what if one of my son's friends saw that image on one of those website and assumed that my son was a member of that group? Since one of my sons has already been bullied in the past, I don't want to give any potential bullies ammunition that they could use against him.

 

As for legalities, there's a difference between being publicly available and in the public domain. Images on the Internet are publicly available, but they're not all in the public domain. Taking an extreme example, cars are publicly available, but they're not free for anyone to use whenever they want. You have to pay to use one -- you can't just take one from the car dealership or from the street. Or, a better analogy, copying movies or games and providing them to your friends is illegal. Just because you have access to a legal copy (such as available through a web browser for an image), does not mean you are free to distribute it (copying that image and putting it up somewhere else on the Internet). A lot of copyright violations are not chased, but that doesn't make it legal.

 

PS: I would love it if this wasn't a problem and that we could post images of how we feel our characters could look like, but I'm aware that things aren't as simple as that. We have to accept that we're a gay website and some people do not like anything associated with homosexuality. We shouldn't be in the position of potentially causing harm to an innocent because we posted an image here without permission.

Edited February 27, 2016 by Graeme

[Dabeagle]

I'm all for protection, I have children as well. Pragmatically, I can't protect him from everything - and frankly, if someone reads a work of fiction and assumes and happens to know the picture used, well, being gay is nothing to be ashamed of.

Even sharing an image that was used for inspiration attaches nothing to the person, celebrity or otherwise. If people assume fictional characters in a story are actually the people in images, well, you have to hope for a certain amount of sense somewhere. These works are pretty up front about being fiction, after all.

 

The car analogy doesn't hold water as these images get shared on public sites as I mentioned where people no longer have ownership of them unlike a vehicle for which you have keys, pay insurance, etc. People use Snapchat, Instagram and by now I'm sure those are alr3eady out of date to share their images - but once they go up on those services, they don't own them anymore. Frankly if you're willing to post yourself on line (which parents tell their kids not to and then, promptly, the kids don't listen) then being used for a story is hardly the worst thing. I've heard where those images end up on porn sites as teasers and stuff. No real evidence there, just rumor and hearsay.

 

Lastly, I find it worrisome that people are willing to read about gay people, gay people in love, but a portrait of the inspiration is a bridge too far.

[Cynus]

I don't do this often, but I have done it for my most recent story. I'm more inclined to side with Dabeagle on this one, though. As long as the intention isn't to make it erotic, and as long as it doesn't overtly do so, why would it be an issue? (Other than the potential legal ones)

And I'm careful when I post pictures to ensure that they're not erotic, as well. I may contain erotica in my stories, but I don't think I've ever written a story which was just erotica and nothing else, and I don't want my stories associated with that. All of the pictures I used for my most recent batch of characters were all fully clothed, and I intend to stick to that.

To my knowledge, I've never posted a picture of someone under 18, either, and the characters I associated these latest pictures with were no younger than 17. I think there's definitely a gray area there. Would I post a muse of my characters at 14 or 15? I'm not sure, and maybe there is a difference there, but when my characters are 17, the pictures are of 18-year-olds . . . I just don't see that as much of an issue. 

I also tend to use pictures of models (clothing models, usually) to represent my characters. My theory was that these would be more likely to be public domain, however, I am certainly no expert in legal matters and could be completely wrong about that.

To end my post, I am more than willing to remove any pictures at any time should GA (Or any other site where I'm hosted) ask me to, or if the original owner were to ask me to. I'm not so attached to these pictures that I'd fight for them, I simply don't see it as being as much of an issue as others appear to. 

Just my two cents!

[Graeme]

Lastly, I find it worrisome that people are willing to read about gay people, gay people in love, but a portrait of the inspiration is a bridge too far.

 

There's nothing wrong with a portrait of the inspiration. As long as you own the portrait or have permission to use it, then there's not a problem. It's the use of the portrait without permission that is the bridge too far. When it comes to a minor, we then get into the issue of whether they are capable (legally) of giving permission or do we need their parents permission?

 

Taking a different analogy, is it acceptable for someone to post a story by one of our authors here on their own website without permission, even if it's with attribution? I think the almost universal answer would be "no". That's theft. Why, then, would we consider it acceptable to do it for photos? Both are classified as 'creative works'. Why should copying one be acceptable but copying the other not?

[Cynus]

Taking a different analogy, is it acceptable for someone to post a story by one of our authors here on their own website without permission, even if it's with attribution? I think the almost universal answer would be "no". That's theft. Why, then, would we consider it acceptable to do it for photos? Both are classified as 'creative works'. Why should copying one be acceptable but copying the other not?

 

I hadn't thought of it that way. Perhaps it's just the culture I've been a part of on the internet? I use tumblr, and of course we reblog images all the time without thinking of that point. 

 

I'll be bowing out of the conversation now, having been convinced that there is more to think about than what I had originally considered, and will perhaps return when I have reevaluated my position.

[Dabeagle]

My understanding, which could be wrong, is that posting pictured to sites such as Instagram, Pinterest, Facebook, etc makes them their property and not yours. They want them so you can share more of their site, of course. I'm not talking about - what I think you are in your comparison - a photographer who sells their work or watermarks it. It makes sense that, if it were a professional work and owned, that it be marked as such.

[Graeme]

That's true for professional photographers and professional authors, but I'm an amateur author and an amateur photographer. I'd like to think my works are equally protected. Legally, they are, but that won't stop them from being 'stolen' if there's a perception that "if it's on the Internet, it's free to be copied."

 

As for the sites you listed, I'm not a member of any of them and I don't know the rules they provide. At worst, I suspect that the site owns the image after you upload them, but that unless the site has rules in place to allow them to be freely copied to other sites, I suspect it's still the same situation -- they own it and they're not giving permission for it be shared outside of their site. Their policy is in place to allow the images to be shared within their site as a way of promoting more use of their site.

 

It's time for me to bow out, too. I've said what I wanted to say and I'll also confess that my hands aren't clean, either. My last novel and the one that's about to start posting both involve real-life people who have not given me explicit permission to be used in my stories. I'm working off the basis that these are public figures, that I have a disclaimer saying that the words are mine and not theirs, and being as careful as possible to ensure that anything I have those public figures do/say is consistent with their real-life actions/statements. But I'm still potentially at risk by doing so.

[Cia]

My personal feelings about sharing images in any way that is not how the original was intended (a mom sharing a picture of her kid at a sport's game for friends and family is in no way intending for some random person to say 'this is my gay teen character' nor is an image used to promote a model's work as a model or actor in a movie intended to be used to represent say an in-the-closet youth rock star about to make it big) is why I'm very protective about what images I do and do not post online to avoid them being used in ways I don't approve. By doing something like that, no matter how innocent your intentions or the image itself, you open yourself up to some very nasty consequences in the legal system.

 

The Instagram and Pintrest ToS that applies to the conversation at hand about the content you're supposed to post, what you're legally responsible for, and what rights you allow Instagram/Pintrest to do with any content you post can be found below. Let me sum it up for everyone though. A person using the sites has to have legal right to post the content either by owning copyright (took the image being used) or purchased rights to use the image in whatever way they're using it (purchasing stock rights to use an image on an eBook cover is different from using the image on t-shirts that promote an eBook, for example). Users are responsible (as in you're the one who is going to get sued if you don't, not them) to ensure they know the legalities of their country/state for the content being posted.

 

On these sites the content is still owned by the person who posts it, but by posting it, they give the site and other users the ability to reshare or repin it. Note that is very different from 'save a copy to your computer and post it on other websites'. It's even more of a gamble if you're not sure if the person posting it before you followed those laws. Think this could never happen to you? Think no one notices or cares?

 

http://www.contentfac.com/copyright-infringement-penalties-are-scary/

 

http://www.blogher.com/bloggers-beware-you-can-get-sued-using-photos-your-blog-my-story

 

Remember how most of you find images? Search engines, right? Well, now that all you have to do is plug in an image and up pops all the sites it's posted on... it's even easier to find people who are posting content that does not belong to them. If you make the mistake of using an image by a person who actively checks for copyright violations (such as I do every few months for my story content to reduce plagiarism) and they're litigious... you're screwed.

 

Long post--and technical jargon if you chose not to read the ToS content below--short, do not post an image if you don't own it or can't prove that you purchased stock rights to use it unless you like to gamble with the legal system. Even the most basic search of 'copyright on the internet' will drive this point home again and again.

 

Just. Don't. Do. It.

 

 

 

 

Instagram ToS

1. You may not use the Service for any illegal or unauthorized purpose. You agree to comply with all laws, rules and regulations (for example, federal, state, local and provincial) applicable to your use of the Service and your Content (defined below), including but not limited to, copyright laws.
2. You are solely responsible for your conduct and any data, text, files, information, usernames, images, graphics, photos, profiles, audio and video clips, sounds, musical works, works of authorship, applications, links and other content or materials (collectively, "Content") that you submit, post or display on or via the Service.

Instagram does not claim ownership of any Content that you post on or through the Service. Instead, you hereby grant to Instagram a non-exclusive, fully paid and royalty-free, transferable, sub-licensable, worldwide license to use the Content that you post on or through the Service, subject to the Service's Privacy Policy, available here http://instagram.com/legal/privacy/, including but not limited to sections 3 ("Sharing of Your Information"), 4 ("How We Store Your Information"), and 5 ("Your Choices About Your Information"). You can choose who can view your Content and activities, including your photos, as described in the Privacy Policy.

 

You represent and warrant that: (i) you own the Content posted by you on or through the Service or otherwise have the right to grant the rights and licenses set forth in these Terms of Use; (ii) the posting and use of your Content on or through the Service does not violate, misappropriate or infringe on the rights of any third party, including, without limitation, privacy rights, publicity rights, copyrights, trademark and/or other intellectual property rights; (iii) you agree to pay for all royalties, fees, and any other monies owed by reason of Content you post on or through the Service; and (iv) you have the legal right and capacity to enter into these Terms of Use in your jurisdiction.

 

Pintrest ToS:

 

Pinterest allows you to post content, including photos, comments, links, and other materials. Anything that you post or otherwise make available on our Products is referred to as "User Content." You retain all rights in, and are solely responsible for, the User Content you post to Pinterest.

 

More simply put:
If you post your content on Pinterest, it still belongs to you but we can show it to people and others can re-pin it.

b. How Pinterest and other users can use your content

 

You grant Pinterest and its users a non-exclusive, royalty-free, transferable, sublicensable, worldwide license to use, store, display, reproduce, re-pin, modify, create derivative works, perform, and distribute your User Content on Pinterest solely for the purposes of operating, developing, providing, and using the Pinterest Products. Nothing in these Terms shall restrict other legal rights Pinterest may have to User Content, for example under other licenses. We reserve the right to remove or modify User Content for any reason, including User Content that we believe violates these Terms or our policies.

 

 

Pinterest ("Pinterest") respects the intellectual property rights of others and expects its users to do the same. It is Pinterest's policy, in appropriate circumstances and at its discretion, to disable and/or terminate the accounts of users who repeatedly infringe or are repeatedly charged with infringing the copyrights or other intellectual property rights of others.

 

In accordance with the Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998, the text of which may be found on the U.S. Copyright Office website at https://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf, Pinterest will respond expeditiously to claims of copyright infringement committed using the Pinterest website (the "Site") that are reported to Pinterest's Designated Copyright Agent, identified in the sample notice below.

 

If you are a copyright owner, or are authorized to act on behalf of one, or authorized to act under any exclusive right under copyright, please report alleged copyright infringements taking place on or through the Site by completing the following DMCA Notice of Alleged Infringement ("Notice") and delivering it to Pinterest's Designated Copyright Agent. Upon receipt of the Notice as described below, Pinterest will take whatever action, in its sole discretion, it deems appropriate, including removal of the challenged material from the Site.  If Pinterest removes or disables access to content in response to a Notice, we may notify the user with details about the Notice so that they can submit a counter-notice.  Pinterest may also send a complete copy of the Notice to users where appropriate.

 

Including this language about images: If the work you identified is an image, you can ask Pinterest to remove all copies of the image identified in your request by clearly specifying in the beginning of your email that you are requesting that Pinterest “remove all Pins containing the image”.  Please note that only identical copies of the image file can be removed by this function. If an image file has been re-sized or altered in any other way, then it cannot be detected or removed through this function.  (note they're getting around derivative works, but that probably wouldn't hold up in court)

 

 

 

 

[Headstall]

I don't want to tell people what they should or shouldn't do, but I'm going to put my two cents in. We are a predominantly gay literary site that caters to all orientations, including straights, and as such, we are prone to scrutiny. I like that we are respectable, with comfortable and intelligent standards. In my life experience, I have learned there are those who like nothing better than to hate on gay people. Why give them any ammunition. Posting pictures of young boys, no matter how innocent, or how clothed, adds fuel to those looking to start fires. Yes, there are many sensible arguments for why it should be allowed, and why it should be someone's right to do so, but I, for one, do not want anyone using whatever is posted here as a justification for bigotry. It may be unfair in some eyes that we should have to police ourselves, and they are probably right, but I will always err on the side of caution. As a father of four, I would not stand for a picture of one of my kids being used without permission. We are not a tumblr site. We are Gay Authors, and I'd like to think we would all chose to do what's in the best interest of our home here. Do as you will, but I am a gay man, and I have seen pictures in the gallery that I personally found offensive because of the fact they were of young-appearing boys in poses that are somewhat suggestive. Like someone has already stated, I too found them creepy. I am no prude. I just think there is a place for everything, and just like we have standards for our written content, I believe it is in our best interest to have standards for what is posted in the gallery. I judge no one, but like everyone else, I have a right to my opinion, and I am choosing to share it, for what it's worth. Cheers.

[Myr]

My attention was directed to this topic and I'm very much of a mixed mind on it.  The intention of the Gallery when we set it up on the site was for members to share their personal pictures and artwork. That is, stuff they have firm copyright control on.

 

Because this is such a gray area on what is and is not public domain, we do not actively police this and expect our members to be doing what is right.  Our posted Terms of Service cover this.

 

Now, as a writer myself, I also use pictures for the characters I write.  I don't post these in public.  I have had a talented artist render some of my characters and I have posted those with his permission though, for example.

 

Perhaps the safest solution for everyone is that we authors ask some of the artistically talented types on site to render characters for us in their medium of choice that we can then display?  And if that's not available, link externally?  This keeps everyone on Gay Authors, the site itself, free and clear of legal issues while addressing the very legitimate need of some authors to show images of what they have in mind.

[JackBinimbul]

 

Perhaps the safest solution for everyone is that we authors ask some of the artistically talented types on site to render characters for us in their medium of choice that we can then display?

As a freelance artist, I'm biased toward this method.  Yes, everyone hire me!

[Drew Espinosa]

Perhaps the safest solution for everyone is that we authors ask some of the artistically talented types on site to render characters for us in their medium of choice that we can then display? 

I'd like to recommend Roberto Zuniga, his artwork is phenomenal.

[mattie]

As a freelance artist, I'm biased toward this method.  Yes, everyone hire me!

Lmao, Jack

[Dabeagle]

After looking at Cia's links, I am clearly wrong and not a lawyer with respect to the legality.

 

The rest of the argument, I remain in disagreement.

[Arpeggio]

I had someone, when I first joined, ask if he could use my picture as a reference to one of his characters and I politely declined. As much as I was flattered, I was worried about the possibility of being sexualized (and I'm trying to be modest and not arrogant here ) I had no problem with the character being described as me because, let's face it, black hair and brown eyes is pretty nonspecific. I agree with Cia, I don't think it's very appropriate, but I have no qualms if someone has permission. 

 

I prefer to make my own visual image of a character anyways. It's more personalized. 

Edited February 27, 2016 by Arpeggio

[Cia]

After looking at Cia's links, I am clearly wrong and not a lawyer with respect to the legality.

 

 

And that's understandable. I'm very aware of the issue because I make covers and art to actively promote my eBooks on the market. I have an off-site blog where I use promotional images, as well. There are sites where you can find stock models who have put their images up for the purpose of being used in this manner, and the individual stock art is very cheap if you absolutely feel the need to share inspirational images for characters or settings.  

 

For instance, right now I have two model images I've used as the physical representations for my main characters plus my own landscape shots and a few extra graphics I will use to promote a novella that, if accepted, will be published with DSP. I've shared those model images (both adults) on Facebook, but I paid for the stock rights to use them, even if Dreamspinner doesn't end up using them for the cover. This way, I'm covered and safe from any liability issues. The cost? Less than $10. If I knew I was just using them for promotion, I could've gotten smaller images/less resolution and the fee would've been under $5. It's a far cry from thousands of dollars in fines and restitution, and that makes it worth it for me.

[W_L]

Perhaps the safest solution for everyone is that we authors ask some of the artistically talented types on site to render characters for us in their medium of choice that we can then display?  And if that's not available, link externally?  This keeps everyone on Gay Authors, the site itself, free and clear of legal issues while addressing the very legitimate need of some authors to show images of what they have in mind.

 

Sims editor is cheap and a decent animated approximation, plus you can program them to your liking