Cultural Appropriation

[Carlos Hazday]

This is my attempt to extricate an off-topic discussion from another thread. The subject of heterosexual women being able to write gay fiction is not something new, I've heard different takes on it since before joining GA. In a private conversation, another author once referred to the practice as cultural appropriation. I have no idea if that's realistic. However, I do know certain individuals have no concept of what gay men do or say amongst themselves. I was once accused of writing unrealistic dialogue for a group of men. The person raising the objection claimed she had been around gay men for a long time and her acquaintances never spoke the way I showed. My counter argument, supported by several readers, was that the moment a female was introduced into a group of males, the conversation dynamics most often changed. She would not experience the type of interchange I portrayed.

However, does her writing a MM romance constitute cultural appropriation?

I'm not sure. Did I commit the same error when I wrote something called Black Lives Matter from the point of view of a single, young, straight, black male?

Writing female characters, and I have done so plenty of times, is always a challenge. I would hate to upset someone by not getting it right. Writing from a black man's POV terrified me. I had a couple of black friends read what I'd written and was told, although not perfect, it was decent enough not to be offensive.

I'd love to hear what anyone else thinks.

[headtransplant]

I think this link is appropriate to the discussion:

https://greenheart.org/blog/greenheart-international/cultural-appreciation-vs-cultural-appropriation-why-it-matters/

“Appreciation is when someone seeks to understand and learn about another culture in an effort to broaden their perspective and connect with others cross-culturally. Appropriation on the other hand, is simply taking one aspect of a culture that is not your own and using it for your own personal interest.”

I think we can find examples of both in gay fiction. The careful research and willingness to seek out the perspective of others is key. 
 

1 hour ago, Carlos Hazday said:

My counter argument, supported by several readers, was that the moment a female was introduced into a group of males, the conversation dynamics most often changed. She would not experience the type of interchange I portrayed.

I have heard about this too, from the perspective of trans men entering male spaces and observing how differently the conversation goes when a woman isn’t present. 

So yes, inevitably there will be some aspects of the gay male experience that women cannot access. Can a woman still write gay stories realistically? I don’t see why not. 

This discussion can easily steer in the direction of offending women on the site, but I think it’s important. We need to rationally look at ourselves and how we approach writing about a marginalized group. I just hope anyone who adds to the conversation will be mindful and respectful of each other’s perspectives, and avoid misogynistic statements.

On that note, referring to women as “females” may seem harmless, but there is a trend of men using the word as a tool for othering / dehumanizing women. So if we want the conversation to be inclusive, the term “women” is better.

[Carlos Hazday]

23 minutes ago, headtransplant said:

On that note, referring to women as “females” may seem harmless, but there is a trend of men using the word as a tool for othering / dehumanizing women. So if we want the conversation to be inclusive, the term “women” is better.

I've had this discussion with my editor before. My use of female was in the same sentence as males. See the quote below.

 

23 minutes ago, headtransplant said:

a female was introduced into a group of males

So if my use of female is not PC, does the same apply to my use of males? Sometimes our society seems to find fault/take offense at even the tiniest of things.

[Mawgrim]

I can see why this could be a potentially explosive topic so i'm going to try to be careful. As writers, we often have the need to explore topics or characters in a story without having had actual, personal experience. Many years ago, as a creative writing assignment, I wrote a short story from the point of view of a murderer. Obviously I didn't go out and murder someone beforehand (you have to take my word on this😅) but I did as much research as I could prior to commencing the story. In most stories we are going to be creating characters who have opinions or characteristics we don't share. For example, a lot of people on this site write about vampires, shifters and such but I don't expect they've actually experienced what it is to be that type of character. I personally have never ridden a dragon in real life, but I hope that my imagination (plus many hours reading Anne McCaffrey's books) have given me sufficient information to make a fair job of writing about a person who does.

I understand the need to be careful when writing about characters who are different from ourselves, either in colour, gender, sexual orientation, nationality or anything else. If it's done sensitively and well, then hopefully it encourages readers to empathise with those characters. And, of course, research is essential, including getting people who do fall into those groups to tell us if we have made mistakes, or inadvertently caused offence as @Carlos Hazday mentioned.

In this day and age, it's important to bear in mind things that may have been acceptable in the past aren't necessarily that way now. In another ten or twenty years, more changes will have taken place. It would be terribly frustrating to any writer to only be allowed to write about situations he or she has personally experienced, so from the point of view of an author, I see no reason why a woman shouldn't write stories about gay males, or why a gay man shouldn't write from the point of view of a straight woman, providing they have done their homework and it is done with the intention to entertain and inform rather than to offend.

[headtransplant]

2 minutes ago, Carlos Hazday said:

I've had this discussion with my editor before. My use of female was in the same sentence as males. See the quote below.

I noticed that, and don’t think your use was offensive. I just want commenters to be careful about word choice because it’s a sensitive topic and the conversation can so easily get derailed. 

[Mawgrim]

I just re-read my own post and realised I'm inadvertently guilty of the same thing! It's so easy to make mistakes.

[headtransplant]

7 minutes ago, Mawgrim said:

I just re-read my own post and realised I'm inadvertently guilty of the same thing! It's so easy to make mistakes.

I don’t think you used the word in an offensive manner. Now I’m starting to think I inadvertently derailed the conversation 😅 It really is easy to make mistakes. It’s no big deal as long as everyone’s being respectful, and I think we are.

[Carlos Hazday]

43 minutes ago, Mawgrim said:

I understand the need to be careful when writing about characters who are different from ourselves, either in colour, gender, sexual orientation, nationality or anything else. If it's done sensitively and well, then hopefully it encourages readers to empathise with those characters.

Have you been reading my stories? Your list reads like my cast of characters. LOL

[Kitt]

4 hours ago, Carlos Hazday said:

My counter argument, supported by several readers, was that the moment a female was introduced into a group of males, the conversation dynamics most often changed. She would not experience the type of interchange I portrayed.

First off, female/male as used here is about as offensive as air/water. If someone can manage to take offense at this usage they have bigger issues to talk to their shrink about. 

Second, you are 100% right in that no matter how familiar an individual is with a group of the opposite sex, things are just different when both sexes (or more when you include Trans etc)are present. This cuts BOTH ways. Intro a man to a group of women and you get the same effect.

2 hours ago, Mawgrim said:

I can see why this could be a potentially explosive topic so i'm going to try to be careful

I think part of the problem is too many are trying to be too careful. You cannot be 100% non-offensive. No matter what you say, someone can manage to take offense. When that happens with what I will call piddling little things...see my comment to Carlos.

As for females writing m/m sex? I have a gay friend who's comment on the subject was "Maybe I should try that to see if it really works. Might be fun!"

[Cia]

Research, real-life experiences, and consideration for the characters being written as "real" people is how I write. I read a vast amount of content, and I can pinpoint authors who write locations who have never been there and failed to do adequate research (*ahem* published work written as a fanfiction that became a huge publishing success so the author excuses her flubs 🤢). I can pinpoint authors who fail to consider the real-world ramifications of injuries when they write characters who get hurt in fiction (no one deep throats during a blow job hours after breaking their nose, 1-breathing and 2-PAIN). I can also pinpoint authors who have probably not had anal sex, and definitely not shower sex (um, soap is not LUBE and it WILL burn and cause damage... don't do it!). If you don't have real-life experience with your subject matter, you better research the hell out of it. Either get some experience, or research and talk to those who have it, so that you're going to craft a story that is worth of your effort. And your audiences' time to read it. 

Is that appropriation? I don't think so. If we only write stories about characters like us, with our experiences, the world of fiction would be a sad, sad place. 

None of these examples were taken from fiction on GA, by the way. All were published works. Some I've seen actually in fiction written with male leads and others with female leads and featuring both gay and heterosexual romances. And you know what? I roll my eyes and move on. If it's not to my taste, I don't read the author again. I don't think they're misappropriating anything, but I do think they're probably misguided or maybe even lazy. 

Write what you want, but do it justice. Read what you want, by whoever you want if it's to your taste, but give it a chance first. Judging an author's skill based on their gender alone would be biased. Those are my views as an author and reader. 🙂

[Freerider]

24 minutes ago, Cia said:

soap is not LUBE

I agree. Believe me when I say you'll feel bubbly for days 

It does the job though.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Freerider

[Carlos Hazday]

7 minutes ago, Freerider said:

I agree. Believe me when I say you'll feel bubbly for days 

It does the job though.

Hair conditioner's a better option.

 

[Freerider]

6 minutes ago, Carlos Hazday said:

Hair conditioner's a better option.

 

Noted! 

[Krista]

I don't know... all of those have too many four or five syllable words listed within the ingredients to be good for you.

[Parker Owens]

While I may not have much new to add, I’d like to say how much I appreciate this discussion. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Parker Owens

[Mawgrim]

46 minutes ago, Krista said:

I don't know... all of those have too many four or five syllable words listed within the ingredients to be good for you.

So does lube! I just checked. Hydroxyethylcellolose and methylparaben to name just a few of the ingredients.

[BigBen]

1 hour ago, Cia said:

If you don't have real-life experience with your subject matter, you better research the hell out of it. Either get some experience, or research and talk to those who have it, so that you're going to craft a story that is worth of your effort. And your audiences' time to read it. 

This was more or less my point when I derailed that other thread.  My point was not that people who aren't themselves gay men should not write about gay men, but that they should do their research, because there are obvious signs when a writer has no clue.

[Mrsgnomie]

As a woman who writes gay male fiction, I’ve gotten a lot of heat. Mostly from men who flat out refuse to read from a woman writer. Perfect, don’t. No skin off my back. 

I’ve also gotten a lot of feedback from men who like woman writers because their stories tend to be a little softer, and they like that. I guess that’s the wonderful thing about fiction, there is, hopefully, something for everyone.

I got an email the other day because someone didn’t like something I wrote and claimed it was too far fetched. I’m a woman, I shouldn’t be writing for gay men. Ok, not the first I’ve heard that. I get it. 

The thing is, the part of the story they didn’t like was based off real events of the two men I was a surrogate for (with permission of course) and written in very accurate detail (per their feedback). So, was it too far fetched? Or was it something this particular person hadn’t experienced...or experienced with a different outcome?

“that’s not how dragons behave.” Says who? Why not?

”That’s not what men sound like when they talk.” What men? All men? Every. Single. Man?

”Thats not what love looks like.” For who? You?

”Woman don’t behave like that.” Out of 3.8 billion woman, I’m sure a few act like that.

”You can’t use soap as lube, it burns.” Ok, I’ll give you that one . But maybe someone has a special soap, organic with words you can pronounce, feels good shoved up your ass, maybe a little soothing. Maybe they like farting bubbles (autocorrected to bibles) for days. I don’t know?!! lol

I think others said it perfectly when they said we shouldn’t be tied down to only writing things we’ve personally experienced. What a dull world. So much literature we would miss out on. I also agree that as authors, we need to research. Still, all the research in the world won’t produce perfect works. 

One last thing. I have never been offended by someone using the word female. Obviously, context is important. But the word woman can also be extremely offensive. “What did I tell you, Woman?!”

I suppose you can take offense to anything if you want.

[headtransplant]

1 hour ago, Mrsgnomie said:

One last thing. I have never been offended by someone using the word female. Obviously, context is important. But the word woman can also be extremely offensive. “What did I tell you, Woman?!”

I suppose you can take offense to anything if you want.

After reading everyone’s comments I realize my original statement on woman/female was unnecessary. Agreed that context is really the only factor in whether or not a term will offend, and that being too careful can have a negative effect on conversation too. Live and learn  

It’s been so great to read everyone’s perspective. I’m surprised you have gotten so much heat from readers, @Mrsgnomie. I feel like I’d be pretty crushed if that happened to me so kudos for keeping your cool.

[Mrsgnomie]

11 minutes ago, headtransplant said:

It’s been so great to read everyone’s perspective. I’m surprised you have gotten so much heat from readers, @Mrsgnomie. I feel like I’d be pretty crushed if that happened to me so kudos for keeping your cool.

I get enough positive reinforcement that the rest roll off...mostly lol

Edited May 27, 2021 by Mrsgnomie