Manifesting Character problems

[Rechan]

I need some help thinking through a character, as well as getting a "check" on my plot outline.

 

For the longest time, I've had a character that I really want to write about but I didn't have a plot for. Now that I have the semblance of an idea, I think that I need to work a little more ont he manifestations of his problem.

 

Let's call him Jacob. In his youth Jacob was very promiscuous. Sex was convenient, with many hookups and short term relationships that existed were built on sex. Twenty years later, Jacob is middle aged, and has not been able to rely on his looks to catch the young hot guys eyes for almost a decade. Because of the habits he ingrained so well, he never learned relationship skills because he fell into the same patterns. How to make a relationship, how to keep one, how to behave in one. And now Jacob can't take it. He's lonely, and wants something more of substance and long term, but he has no idea how to do it, and it's tearing him up.

 

(To those familiar with the US version of Queer as Folk, I see Jacob as if he was like Brian in his late teens and 20s, then in his 30s became Ted.)

 

The plot of the story is that Jacob meets a guy and he really wants to make it work. But a lot of the conflict comes from the mistakes he makes, either due to habit or pre-conceived notions. And his struggle to change himself and to make it work.

 

So part of my question is how would this ineptness manifest? How would he screw up relationships he's trying to establish now? Cheating is obvious but aside from that, what mindset or behaviors would be a hurdle for him, and how would these habits show even when he's not meeting/associating with a man he's interested in? One way I was thinking of was to show the reader that when he sees a guy, he immediately accesses them for sexual attraction/compatibility, and if they don't meet what he likes, he acts almost professional to them, treating them like either a colleague or a neighbor or a relative purely based on their physical appearance. Although this may be more a more common response than I'm guessing, so this is part of a reality check.

[Nephylim]

I would think that one of the ways would be an inability to think of the other person... for example not thinking to call if he's going to be late, or to let his partner know where he is going to be if plans change.. obviously leading to the conclusion he may have been cheating and then reacting to the fear that hemight be with defensiveness and anger making the other person even more insecure.

 

Not recognising small endearances and things that are important to a relationship but not generally. For example if his partner makes him dinner but he comes home late... can;t understand why it's such a big thing when he's said he doesn't mind eating it cold. Or inviting a friend on an intimate evening etc.

 

Just off the top of my head. hope it helps... oh and if you're not used to to relationships it is really difficult to deal with issues... first reaction is to be defensive and fight back.

[JamesSavik]

1- go to a gay bar

 

2- watch any guys over 40

 

3- remember that no one gave us a manual and there is not 2000 years worth of literature or movies that shows us how it works

[Dolores Esteban]

He might have weird concepts that he's unaware of maybe. For instance: sex sells and love = sex --> love sells --> I can buy your love --> giving presents, but showing no true interest in the other person's life and personality (past, present, future; thoughts, ideas, plans, worries, hobbies, interests, habits, etc; all the things that make a person unique and special).

 

 

[Rechan]

I would think that one of the ways would be an inability to think of the other person... for example not thinking to call if he's going to be late, or to let his partner know where he is going to be if plans change.. obviously leading to the conclusion he may have been cheating and then reacting to the fear that hemight be with defensiveness and anger making the other person even more insecure.

 

He might have weird concepts that he's unaware of maybe. For instance: sex sells and love = sex --> love sells --> I can buy your love --> giving presents, but showing no true interest in the other person's life and personality (past, present, future; thoughts, ideas, plans, worries, hobbies, interests, habits, etc; all the things that make a person unique and special).

 

Bare in mind that outside of his issues, Jacob is not a douchebag. He has no deep seated emotional or social disorders. So he cares about another person's life and personality, he has empathy. He has friends. These problems don't exist with platonic relationships. And he knows general social etiquette - if he's doing something with a friend, he's going to be polite enough to call if he's going to be late.

 

So what you're suggesting Dolores is purely to his romantic interests, he doesn't show emotion very well in them. Or is ignorant to the expression of non-sexual affection, and perhaps acts less interested in a person's life and personality than he would if he was not interested in having sex with them?

 

Not recognising small endearances and things that are important to a relationship but not generally. For example if his partner makes him dinner but he comes home late... can;t understand why it's such a big thing when he's said he doesn't mind eating it cold. Or inviting a friend on an intimate evening etc.

 

Just off the top of my head. hope it helps... oh and if you're not used to to relationships it is really difficult to deal with issues... first reaction is to be defensive and fight back.

I like these. These are helpful.

 

Jacob has yet to be fully fleshed out in my head, I wanted to get his issues down before I started rounding him out, that way his issue could be more cohesive than tacked on at the end.

[Dolores Esteban]

Yes. He might just be confused himself, which could result in inappropriate and perhaps awkward actions. Just an idea. It's up to you, of course. Your story concept is very interesting.

 

 

[JamesSavik]

There is a huge generational difference between someone who grew up pre and post HIV/AIDS.

 

In the "old days", things were a lot more free-wheeling. There was no disgrace in sleeping around like a drunken sailor. In fact I knew people that thought that if they didn't get laid a night was a complete waste. It was like a game and a lot of people were going for the high score. Many of those same people didn't make it.

 

Now things have changed quite a bit. Promiscuity is a taboo for obvious reasons but there are still a lot of people out there acting like it's still the seventies.

 

This is something that your character has had to struggle with.

[Rechan]

Yes. He might just be confused himself, which could result in inappropriate and perhaps awkward actions. Just an idea.

I think I can see that now. More in the sense of in a relationship, you're supposed to at least accept or encourage your partner's interests. Keep up on them. Ask them about them. Even if you have no interest, they do and you care about them so you care about their interests. However with family members or colleagues, you might not care at all and so it's ok to just nod your head and smile and change the subject unless they're bombarding you with it. But if your partner cares about something then you can't just blow that off.

 

This is something that your character has had to struggle with.

Actually, no. I don't want to dwell on this but I'm not writing about current day earth with humans per se. I know you're going to say "Well that alters everything becasue culture and history and the relations of species", but it doesn't for this purpose. Trust me. The story has a certain niche with its own assumptions of setting built in so my readers will understand. Culture and psychology are quite the same but issues like STDS are just not a concern for reasons I don't want to get into.

[Tipdin]

Jacob sounds like an interesting guy; very much like someone I know - well.

 

If Jacob is basically a good guy, then many of his accidental faux-pas may be on account of his own insecurities. He may forget to call or some other little thing, and then go to such great lengths to overcompensate that he actually causes the suspicion that he's trying to prevent.

 

Again, old habits and insecurity might drive him to wonder if his new beaux is cheating on him simply because Jacob caught him checking out a nice butt or getting a smile from a stranger. Jacob remembers how he would have behaved in his old days and projects that onto his new friend, which would cause trouble in any number of ways.

 

And then old habits are, ...habits, after all. Jacob knows that when he sees a cute butt or gets a stranger's smile, he's still tempted to go after the stranger for a quickie. Perhaps he would even go after the stranger and then try to minimize it as not ACTUALLY being cheating because it wasn't in a bed, or doesn't count because he never got the guy's name. Jacob is minimizing his own behavior while suspecting or worrying if his new friend is - or would be - guilty of the same thing.

 

For most of us, fighting one's self-doubt and insecurity is far, far more difficult that fighting someone else. A guilty conscious can be made so much worse when one knows they are already guilty of the desire for the doing of the crime.

[JamesSavik]

If you are gay and male and you haven't lost even a little sleep over HIV then you don't live on this current day earth.

 

I can show you graveyards full of people who thought that HIV wasn't a concern.

[Rechan]

I'm not being flippant. I'm just saying that it doesn't exist in these terms in the setting being used.

[Rechan]

If Jacob is basically a good guy, then many of his accidental faux-pas may be on account of his own insecurities. He may forget to call or some other little thing, and then go to such great lengths to overcompensate that he actually causes the suspicion that he's trying to prevent.

 

Again, old habits and insecurity might drive him to wonder if his new beaux is cheating on him simply because Jacob caught him checking out a nice butt or getting a smile from a stranger. Jacob remembers how he would have behaved in his old days and projects that onto his new friend, which would cause trouble in any number of ways.

 

And then old habits are, ...habits, after all. Jacob knows that when he sees a cute butt or gets a stranger's smile, he's still tempted to go after the stranger for a quickie. Perhaps he would even go after the stranger and then try to minimize it as not ACTUALLY being cheating because it wasn't in a bed, or doesn't count because he never got the guy's name. Jacob is minimizing his own behavior while suspecting or worrying if his new friend is - or would be - guilty of the same thing.

Hm. That's an interesting take. Here I was thinking of the reverse, of the fact that because of his habits, cheating initially wouldn't enter his mind as way of therat. An interesting idea I had was that at some point when he is in deep with the other guy, an attractive man offers some no-strings attached sex. And Jacob initially takes the bait, but has to actually stop and think about it, remembering that no, that's actually not a good idea. I had thought he might even go to the length of calling his boyfriend to ask if he could (but that perhaps is too unbelievable to write in, or would do more damage realistically than I want).

 

Or perhaps it isn't at first, until he remembers that men he cheated with left their SOs for him, or it ruined their relationship, and oh god it may ruin his, as this is his only shot!

 

Although there's also the question of why the other guy even puts up with him. So far, I have no idea of the Other Man's character yet. Because Jacob and the premise of his issue has been sitting in the back of my head for years, taking up a visible space but never given attention.

[Rechan]

One thought for a beginning of the novel is that Jacob comes into contact with a younger man who is doing the same things that Jacob did in his younger days and he wants to caution from. The challenge though is finding an appropriate venue for this young man and how Jacob knows him. My initial idea was that he would be a relative or perhaps the son of a friend's relative, a boy who just went to college and just came out and they are ushered towards Jacob. Or they solicit Jacob's advice.

 

Although that doesn't make sense. Your family isn't going to know if you're a slut; you're not going to advertise it. And if there's all ready a large support network for those realizing their sexuality, why go to an older person? So there's the issue of how Jacob (or whoever steers the boy his way) would know, or how that "coming into contact" would work out right.

 

The whole point of this interaction is to 1) show the audience Jacob's internal strife and past. The reader will see his loneliness and perhaps his ineptness/need towards other men, but not have the background or the real far reaching nature of the issue. And 2) It will bring it to the forefront to the character. It's the first step to wanting to do something about it.

 

Or perhaps that first step should come when he meets The Other Man, because if he sees the potential there, he's going to want to rise and meet it.

 

I'm not sure. That's part of the why of this thread, so I can have a nice sounding board.

[Tipdin]

Hm. That's an interesting take. Here I was thinking of the reverse, of the fact that because of his habits, cheating initially wouldn't enter his mind as way of therat. An interesting idea I had was that at some point when he is in deep with the other guy, an attractive man offers some no-strings attached sex. And Jacob initially takes the bait, but has to actually stop and think about it, remembering that no, that's actually not a good idea. I had thought he might even go to the length of calling his boyfriend to ask if he could (but that perhaps is too unbelievable to write in, or would do more damage realistically than I want).

 

Or perhaps it isn't at first, until he remembers that men he cheated with left their SOs for him, or it ruined their relationship, and oh god it may ruin his, as this is his only shot!

 

Although there's also the question of why the other guy even puts up with him. So far, I have no idea of the Other Man's character yet. Because Jacob and the premise of his issue has been sitting in the back of my head for years, taking up a visible space but never given attention.

 

 

This reminds me that I had a real life situation where I had broken up with a man that I was with for four years. I met another guy a few months after my breakup, and was VERY interested in him. While talking at dinner one night, he was telling me about the psychopath that he'd been dating for the past several years, and was so glad to get rid of him. It turned out to be my ex...

 

Boy did we have a lot to talk about then! But once I knew he'd been sleeping with my ex -during the same time that I was- it got to close for comfort. I had to start asking every potential bf is he knew my ex. My ex got around - a lot!

[gardentuber]

Jacob sounds like an interesting character study.

 

You know the most basic rule/suggestion/advice: write what you know. I'd suggest this applies here. What do you know about the changes a person undergoes as he matures? What do you know about formulas for interacting that are no longer age/situation appropriate? What interactions have you observed in your life that inform you about your possible character?

 

I'm not saying, 'don't write this'. I am suggesting that the details needed to write convincing and interesting prose are most likely to be derived from personal observation. That's where you'll find the information you need. You have surely gone through some transitions in life and may be able to apply your accrued knowledge to the process your character's experiencing. If you don't feel you have enough personal knowledge, head out and watch people at bars, as another person suggested. That'll tell you about how your character behaves while in public and on the prowl. It won't tell you much about how your character behaves in private, though.

 

If you find you don't have enough information to write a worthwhile story just now... wait. Write some sketches (interactions with old friends, interactions with previous tricks, interactions with potential tricks, interactions with potential boyfriends, interactions with coworkers, personal musings, interactions with family, etc). Not everything you write needs to be included in a final draft; just don't throw anything away!!!! You can sit on the idea for a while, a few years, even a few decades. It's a character worth exploring, a story worth telling. Good luck!

[Rechan]

Jacob sounds like an interesting character study.

 

You know the most basic rule/suggestion/advice: write what you know. I'd suggest this applies here. What do you know about the changes a person undergoes as he matures? What do you know about formulas for interacting that are no longer age/situation appropriate? What interactions have you observed in your life that inform you about your possible character?

Honestly? I've never been in a relationship before. And given my sexual history... Let's just say if "Write what you know" was enforced, I wouldn't be writing romance or erotica. So i have to take some steps into the "fake it really well" arena.

 

I think part of the challenge also will be making sure Jacob is a likable character instead of an asshole, or at least someone that will not grate on the reader. They need to liek teh character in order to keep reading, need to care otherwise why bother investing in his struggles?

[gardentuber]

Honestly? I've never been in a relationship before. And given my sexual history... Let's just say if "Write what you know" was enforced, I wouldn't be writing romance or erotica. So i have to take some steps into the "fake it really well" arena.

 

I think part of the challenge also will be making sure Jacob is a likable character instead of an asshole, or at least someone that will not grate on the reader. They need to liek teh character in order to keep reading, need to care otherwise why bother investing in his struggles?

 

Yeah, well, the 'good writing' police will break down your door and read you your Miranda rights (or is that writes?) before hauling you off to study hall and making you complete your assignment before you're permitted time out on good behavior!

 

This raises the question of just where and how therapy and writing interact. It's interesting to read stories on this site from that perspective. After all, what does a story about sudden wealth or abusive parents or bullying say about the author? What do so many stories about sudden wealth, abusive parents or bullying say about the people who choose to publish on GA?

 

And then there's the question of keeping your readers interested. Do you need to make your characters likable to maintain readership? If they're simply interesting, will that be enough to keep your readership? Will a thrilling plot line (violence or threatened violence, lots of sexual escapades, hang gliders/car chases/encounters with sharks) or cliff hanger chapter endings keep a loyal fan base? OK, alright - you sound like you plan a thoughtful character study rather than a thriller. Good for you. The downside is: you have to know your character - which means study, study, study.

 

Time for you to get out there and use your youth and physical prowess to break some hearts so you can write about it, dontcha think? So, instead of study hall, your assignment is to go out to the baths, bars and clubs and arrange to have lots of impersonal sex. So the writing police have decreed! Get to it!!

[Rechan]

Yeaaaah no.

[gardentuber]

Yeaaaah no.

 

OK... so you're not going with the oodles of impersonal sex approach. Probably a good decision.

 

Instead, think about what you do know. As mentioned earlier, you can't get to 26 years old without dealing with change, both the welcome and unwelcome aspects of it. Write about that. Don't focus so much on your character's sexual proclivities (aside from what you know or you've been able to learn from your social network). No dungeons, no safe words or multi-orgasmic orgies if that's not something you're cognizant of. After all, we're talking about a 'coming of age' tale here... maybe not the teenage version, but still that's what it is. If you don't feel you can realistically support a character in his 40's, don't put him in his 40's. Whatever the age, you're writing about change, about adjusting to new perspectives, about adapting to new limitations and new abilities, maybe even about learning to be a better human being (since you want him to be likable).

 

After introducing your character to us, we'll look forward to meeting him as you develop and publish your story. Also, there are plenty of folks here who would be happy to beta or edit your work before you publish. Since you sound like you're wrestling with the character, bounce a chapter or two off some of those folks. Just be willing to hear their feedback.

 

Best of luck!

[Rechan]

Instead, think about what you do know. As mentioned earlier, you can't get to 26 years old without dealing with change, both the welcome and unwelcome aspects of it. Write about that. Don't focus so much on your character's sexual proclivities (aside from what you know or you've been able to learn from your social network). No dungeons, no safe words or multi-orgasmic orgies if that's not something you're cognizant of. After all, we're talking about a 'coming of age' tale here... maybe not the teenage version, but still that's what it is. If you don't feel you can realistically support a character in his 40's, don't put him in his 40's. Whatever the age, you're writing about change, about adjusting to new perspectives, about adapting to new limitations and new abilities, maybe even about learning to be a better human being (since you want him to be likable).

Yeah, the character is dealing with his relationship shortcomings, and the conflict that brings to the guy (Steven). After all, Jacob (while he still wants sex) wants something of substance because he's never had it and feels that he has cheated himself because of that. The change comes from grappling with his own intimate social skills blowing up when put to work.

 

Really that's all I want here - suggestions on how they might blow up.

 

After introducing your character to us, we'll look forward to meeting him as you develop and publish your story. Also, there are plenty of folks here who would be happy to beta or edit your work before you publish.

Really?! Where?

 

... Do folks here mind the freaky stuff? I have a story sitting in my hip pocket, but it's... freaky.

[Persinette]

It's an odd, minor thing; but maybe not knowing how to provide physical contact that doesn't turn sexual? Say he knows how to comfort a friend physically because they're not filed under the 'sexual partner' folder in his brain, but he doesn't have a tag for 'person I am sleeping with, but also emotionally involved with'.

 

It's understandable and unintentional (Jacob's holding his lover and idly petting his hair while they watch a film, Jacob feels warm and relaxed and intimate...and automatically translates that into sex), but 'you only touch me when you want to screw me!' is a realistic sore spot to develop and one that could very easily lead to a blow-up.

 

... Do folks here mind the freaky stuff? I have a story sitting in my hip pocket, but it's... freaky.

What flavour of freaky? I might be able to do a little beta work for you, if you're wanting it.

[Rechan]

It's an odd, minor thing; but maybe not knowing how to provide physical contact that doesn't turn sexual? Say he knows how to comfort a friend physically because they're not filed under the 'sexual partner' folder in his brain, but he doesn't have a tag for 'person I am sleeping with, but also emotionally involved with'.

 

It's understandable and unintentional (Jacob's holding his lover and idly petting his hair while they watch a film, Jacob feels warm and relaxed and intimate...and automatically translates that into sex), but 'you only touch me when you want to screw me!' is a realistic sore spot to develop and one that could very easily lead to a blow-up.

That's an interesting point. Especially for someone who is just physically affectionate. Physical affection does not mean a signal for sex.

 

I actually bought a book a while ago with the intention of using it to create or express conflict in relationships. The Five Languages of Love. That particular conflict (Misinterpreting physical affection) was one that hadn't occurred to me.

 

What flavour of freaky? I might be able to do a little beta work for you, if you're wanting it.

I realized that you can't post explicit stuff in the eFiction area. Right now, I need just a grammar check, and putting the final polish on the story to make it pop (adding little extra details to add a little more character or whatnot).

 

As for the freakiness... It's Furry BDSM.

[Rechan]

I didn't get any replies to this, either, so I thought I'd call attention to it. Any suggestions as far as this is concerned?

 

One thought for a beginning of the novel is that Jacob comes into contact with a younger man who is doing the same things that Jacob did in his younger days and he wants to caution from. The challenge though is finding an appropriate venue for this young man and how Jacob knows him. My initial idea was that he would be a relative or perhaps the son of a friend's relative, a boy who just went to college and just came out and they are ushered towards Jacob. Or they solicit Jacob's advice.

 

Although that doesn't make sense. Your family isn't going to know if you're a slut; you're not going to advertise it. And if there's all ready a large support network for those realizing their sexuality, why go to an older person? So there's the issue of how Jacob (or whoever steers the boy his way) would know, or how that "coming into contact" would work out right.

 

The whole point of this interaction is to 1) show the audience Jacob's internal strife and past. The reader will see his loneliness and perhaps his ineptness/need towards other men, but not have the background or the real far reaching nature of the issue. And 2) It will bring it to the forefront to the character. It's the first step to wanting to do something about it.

 

Or perhaps that first step should come when he meets The Other Man, because if he sees the potential there, he's going to want to rise and meet it.

 

I'm not sure. That's part of the why of this thread, so I can have a nice sounding board.

[Graeme]

My suggestion is a mutual friend introduces them. Someone who is between them in age and knows Jacob has stepped away. The mutual friend hasn't stepped away completely, but is (in their own mind) keeping things under control or maybe only dabbles in whatever it is, but is concerned that the younger person is going too far, and wants them to talk to Jacob because he's been there.

[Rechan]

My suggestion is a mutual friend introduces them. Someone who is between them in age and knows Jacob has stepped away. The mutual friend hasn't stepped away completely, but is (in their own mind) keeping things under control or maybe only dabbles in whatever it is, but is concerned that the younger person is going too far, and wants them to talk to Jacob because he's been there.

I've been thinking about this. Trying to think of a good situation where the middle man would know Jacob's sexual history and his current problem, along with the younger guy's. The first thing that comes to mind is a roommate of the younger guy. But this also brings to mind "How does he know Jacob?" The character that comes to mind is one who is awkward, uncomfortable with the situation - that the younger guy is bringing lots of partners over and it's bothering him, but he doesn't know how to address it. A character like this is amusing, but it brings back the question of his relationship to Jacob.

 

The solution I've thought of is that the Roommate has a sister. The sister is close to Jacob. The roommate tells his sister his problem, and his sister relates it (in anecdotal fashion, all amused) to Jacob, and Jacob gets it in him to have a talk with the younger guy. Or the sister could be encouraging Jacob to talk to the young guy to begin with. Jacob knows the roommate (more an acquaintance than a friend).