The Box

[Enric]

. So because Brad became Ace's brother just after the age of the Westermarck Effect, he was able to develop a sexual attaction to Ace in early adolescence.

 

It contrasts with the case of JJ and Will Schluter- even though they are not biologically brothers, they have been raised as brothers since infancy. I think that means that JJ and Will, as they get further into their teens- are not going to be sexually interested in each other.

 

the upper age limit in the Westermarck effect, it is somewhat fluid. Some argue it might last up to the 8th year of a kid. Some hold that age of 6 years.

I think it cannot be determined fully, being probably somewhat individual.

 

Then, another point: although romantic feelings and real sexual attraction, are suppressed by the Westermarck effect (hindering a real sexual love relationship),

still kids who have a 'Westermarck effect' towards one another, seem to sometimes *experiment* with one another, at least I have heard of such. Such as, two brothers, or two best friends from the sandbox age, or ten-year-old members of the same family in 'doctor' play/game. They do not necessarily go very far in such experimenting. Thusly, experimenting is not necessarily suppressed by the effect (or, if it should, then those experimenters are somewhat screwed). They just afterwards might drift apart (in sexual context, though not necessarily as friends) when they mature a bit and start to expect romantic (and not experimental) feelings in sex play.

[rjo]

Sorry to bother you guys again but still no chapter 8. I am not sure why but I still have two 7s no 8. I find that very upsetting because it sounds like Mark out did himself again. If I remember Steven just turned 16 in May, Aaron 16 in August and Billy and JP are both 5. Since Steven is telling this story, it is not unusual that a 5 yo kid would be a little dorky to him. If anyone knows why I get two sevens please contact me thanks.

[Enric]

 

But with this family, it's more likely the Stockholm effect. Where hostages become partners in their own captivity.

 

Man, and I thought MY family was messed up. This makes that old TV series Dynasty look more like a remake of Mary Poppins. This could at times be an episode of "Soap" however.

 

you mean, they are such hopeless screw-up cases that next to no outsider really would want to have sex or relationship with them for longer..... But but, I thought these guys are desired by many, many outsiders....

 

this phenomenon, screw-ups in eyes of others, reminds me of the phenomenon concerning in the 1800s the descendants (grandchildren, great-grandchildren) of king Louis-Philippe. Since he was an usurper (of the french throne) in eyes of all or most catholic dynasties of Europe, as soon as he was deposed, his descendants became almost pariah in the catholic royal marriage market - for half a century at least. How they solved that dilemma: well, they married extraordinarily much within their own, i.e grandchildren and great-grandchildren of Louis-Philippe married one another.

It was only much later, long in the 1900s, when really the larger marriage market opened to them, the bad odor having somewjat passed....

Had it remained cousin marriages in only one generation, I wouldn't be that concerned, but unfortunately, they had to repeat their recipe for over 50 years, which meant two, even three successive generations of cousin marriages. To talk about screw-ups then... The second and later generation of cousin marriages within that limited circle of one man's great-grandchildren, really condensed the heredity, and it was the heredity of a pear-shaped fattish french guy,....

[Enric]

Sorry to bother you guys again but still no chapter 8. I am not sure why but I still have two 7s no 8. I find that very upsetting because it sounds like Mark out did himself again. If I remember Steven just turned 16 in May, Aaron 16 in August and Billy and JP are both 5. Since Steven is telling this story, it is not unusual that a 5 yo kid would be a little dorky to him. If anyone knows why I get two sevens please contact me thanks.

 

everyone here has two sevens there. you are no different in that sense.

 

however, that you did not reach the ch8, is simply because you did not folloiw the instruction someone gave, to manually change the 7 to 8 in the url.

so, try clivk this:

http://markarbour.gayauthors.org/chronicles/box8.php

[rjo]

Thanks for the link. Wow what a chapter. I feel sorry for JP. I think we now know where JP got his passion for sex. I honestly didn't know how Mark does it, but at first Steven's diary was getting a little boring. Not now. I sit back here and think now a 16 yo kid can deal with all this stuff. Steven is a strong guy. I think at 16 this would have driven me over the deep end. Poor JP a little five year old kid growing up in a household of misfits. A uncaring husband so busy with business that he hasn't time for his wife. A passionate wife who has to find other people to love cause her husband is too busy and then a older brother who is a complete a*****le. Not caring about anybody but himself. Maybe it is not so weird that he and Bitty were going at it. You wonder why JP was uptight maybe this is the reason for the Iceman later in his life. Then the ties to the Hayes family. Starting with Aaron, Frank and Jeff. Those two families so different but so much thrown together. Stevens life maybe would have changed a lot with out Aaron and I know Jeff changed JP life so very much and still does even though he has been died for 30 years. ( Some of us are still upset about Jeff's death) I liked Jeff a lot his easy going nature, his sense of right, telling JP to help Isidore, adopt Ace, marry Isidore, build a family, even the house in California. And then Billy (JP's son) Robbie , Marcel, and Matt all part of the story. Mark there are just sometimes I wonder how you came up with a story this good. It is just amazing. Totally Awesome.

[Mark Arbour]

Holy shit! I am not surprised that Marie was a total slut, but she f**ked her own nephew and his best friend/lover. But then, we see JP getting all huffy about it, but I think we forget. Everyone talks about Stefan's sluttyness, but come on, JP may not be as much of a slut, but he's still a slut. Anyway, whoa... that was one of the most dramatic chapters so far. I know part of it is the lying, but he of all people should understand his mother and what her motivations were. She also felt guilty about it to a certain extent, but that doesn't seem to matter to JP. I'm probably being too hard on him here, but it's just the way I see things.

 

And jhol, I think you mean Marie. Tonto cheated only once and it was with Marie.

 

I think JP internalizes things, so he wouldn't really be demonstrative about it anyway. The only one who reads him completely is, I think, Stef.

 

 

That looks like a glitch. I'm sure Joe will get around to fixing it. The actual chapter is there though.

 

All you have to do is click on the second number 7.

 

Sorry to bother you guys again but still no chapter 8. I am not sure why but I still have two 7s no 8. I find that very upsetting because it sounds like Mark out did himself again. If I remember Steven just turned 16 in May, Aaron 16 in August and Billy and JP are both 5. Since Steven is telling this story, it is not unusual that a 5 yo kid would be a little dorky to him. If anyone knows why I get two sevens please contact me thanks.

 

Yep. Most little kids are dorky.

 

Thanks for the link. Wow what a chapter. I feel sorry for JP. I think we now know where JP got his passion for sex. I honestly didn't know how Mark does it, but at first Steven's diary was getting a little boring. Not now. I sit back here and think now a 16 yo kid can deal with all this stuff. Steven is a strong guy. I think at 16 this would have driven me over the deep end. Poor JP a little five year old kid growing up in a household of misfits. A uncaring husband so busy with business that he hasn't time for his wife. A passionate wife who has to find other people to love cause her husband is too busy and then a older brother who is a complete a*****le. Not caring about anybody but himself. Maybe it is not so weird that he and Bitty were going at it. You wonder why JP was uptight maybe this is the reason for the Iceman later in his life. Then the ties to the Hayes family. Starting with Aaron, Frank and Jeff. Those two families so different but so much thrown together. Stevens life maybe would have changed a lot with out Aaron and I know Jeff changed JP life so very much and still does even though he has been died for 30 years. ( Some of us are still upset about Jeff's death) I liked Jeff a lot his easy going nature, his sense of right, telling JP to help Isidore, adopt Ace, marry Isidore, build a family, even the house in California. And then Billy (JP's son) Robbie , Marcel, and Matt all part of the story. Mark there are just sometimes I wonder how you came up with a story this good. It is just amazing. Totally Awesome.

 

Thanks so much!

[methodwriter85]

Yep. Most little kids are dorky.

 

 

Unless you're Drew Barrymore. Then you're Studio 54's star partier, and worthy of a confidential tell-all book at the age of 13.

 

I kinda hope this story will serve to finally heal what went wrong with the Hayes family- that successive generations of that family won't become what Fred Hayes became.

[zland666]

well less drama in chapter 9

 

good break for Steven although his feelings are still getting crushed by Aaron and Aaron should have no right to feel jealous and Steven shouldn't feel bad about screwing around with Barbie for doing it.

 

I just want to jump in there and yell at Aaron to get a grip and say 'I love you' to Steven he's screwing around with Steven's feelings and doesn't seem to give crap about them.

 

Seriously, he needs to open up those eyes of his and see who's feelings he's crushing.

[ricky]

A great chapter. I think they have now both solidified their feelings. I think it took banging Barbie for Arron to realize that he loved him. The part about him not using the condoms was interesting. It said a lot. Well Done Mark.

 

 

Next comes the scary part. And the chapter will open with it.

 

Dec 7th, 1941

 

We'll see them watch the start of it all. They'll want to run off and fight. But they'll have to wait. They might even go and lie about their age. My stepfather did and got away with it. I guess that was not that uncommon.

 

I wonder how you'll makes this sad part of the story happy Mark. Or at least respectable or tolerable.

[Enric]

ch9: uh. that's a difference between boys and girls.

 

a great many girls are ready for marriage at the age of 19.

 

a great many boys are not ready/willing for marriage before the age 25.

 

it just is so often a bad idea for heterosexual young to pair with one who is the same year. And, of course, demographical stats show that usually, the husband is a few years older than his wife.

 

 

this made me to think about the case of my paternal uncle. As I understood it, he married at the age of 18 or 19 with a girl who was his classmate (and our remote blood kin also). The next year, they got their first kid. The uncle was only 20 or 19 at that birth.

 

I wasn't even born at the time. So, I don't really know what our family thought at the time - authentically.

However, from much later discussions and narratives, I gathered my uncle's deed was not thought as cleverest move, by relatives such as my grandparents and their other kids. And that was when the said marriage however had already shown to be stable and good, for decades (and they both managed to complete good educations...). So, if that belated impression was a tempered one, perhaps he faced somewhat real tight criticism at the authentic time.

[Tiger]

Enric, Steven dies in World War II after impregnating Stefan's mother, who was probably became a whore shortly after that. Anyway, he won't be marrying that girl, at least I doubt he will be unless he does so right before he's off to France. So really there's no point in saying that it will last, because we already know it will not. This is unfortunate, but that's how the story goes.

Edited March 21, 2010 by Tiger

[Mark Arbour]

Enric, the Steven dies in World War II after impregnating Stefan's mother, who was probably became a whore shortly after that. Anyway, he won't be marrying that girl, at least I doubt he will be unless he does so right before he's off to France. So really there's no point in saying that it will last, because we already know it will not. This is unfortunate, but that's how the story goes.

 

"The Steven"? Is that like "The Donald?"

 

God I hope not. I hate that guy.

[paya]

Enric, the Steven dies in World War II after impregnating Stefan's mother, who was probably became a whore shortly after that. Anyway, he won't be marrying that girl, at least I doubt he will be unless he does so right before he's off to France. So really there's no point in saying that it will last, because we already know it will not. This is unfortunate, but that's how the story goes.

 

On the other hand it would be nice if they found a 70something lady named Barbara Idon'tknowhersurname who after seeing Stefan would remember her first true love... Wouldn't it be a nice farewell remembrance of Steven? If she talked to them about him... I'm such a hopeless romantic

 

 

 

 

Frank should know more about "Uncle Aaron".

Edited March 21, 2010 by paya

[amBIguoustwo]

Mark,

 

Still too busy to post here regularly, but I'm enjoying every word. And, the sex is great!

 

Bryan

[Tiger]

"The Steven"? Is that like "The Donald?"

 

God I hope not. I hate that guy.

That was accidental. I don't know why I did that. I'd certainly hope you wouldn't make one of your characters like Donald Trump. Not only is he an arrogant pig, but he's also an ugly f**ker.

[Enric]

Enric, Steven dies in World War II .... So really there's no point in saying that it will last...

 

where did I suggest it will last?

 

please do not put that to my saying.

 

 

As I gather it, I was saying much of the opposite, in general terms though: a teenage male is not one prone to have maturity for marriage.

did you somehow imagine this meant a suggestion it will last?

[Enric]

Frank should know more about "Uncle Aaron".

 

well, he should.

 

on the other hand, Frank's reminiscences might be relatively naive. Seeing how he was less than 10 years old when Aaron died.

And, quite possibly, Aaron left the home (going to war) when Frank was six or so...

 

I have a few times interviewed some people about also their close relatives who passed away when they were seven or six or somesuch. Generally, they do not remember so much, and the memory seems to have something about how the one looked like, but not a good idea what sort of person they was.

[Mark M]

no1 remember aaron....wierd.....wonder what happened to him then??? Maybe he's still out there 0.0

[paya]

no1 remember aaron....wierd.....wonder what happened to him then??? Maybe he's still out there 0.0

 

At the end of the chapter JP says Aaron died in the WWII.

[ricky]

Mark,

 

Still too busy to post here regularly, but I'm enjoying every word. And, the sex is great!

 

Bryan

 

"Still" too busy? Don't be so amBIguous

[Mark Arbour]

On the other hand it would be nice if they found a 70something lady named Barbara Idon'tknowhersurname who after seeing Stefan would remember her first true love... Wouldn't it be a nice farewell remembrance of Steven? If she talked to them about him... I'm such a hopeless romantic

 

 

 

 

Frank should know more about "Uncle Aaron".

 

 

Maybe there's a reason he doesn't?

 

Mark,

 

Still too busy to post here regularly, but I'm enjoying every word. And, the sex is great!

 

Bryan

 

Well I'm glad you stopped in Bryan!

 

That was accidental. I don't know why I did that. I'd certainly hope you wouldn't make one of your characters like Donald Trump. Not only is he an arrogant pig, but he's also an ugly f**ker.

 

The thing about Trump is that he does "The Apprentice" and he's one of the worse managers ever. He punishes failure, even when people take legitimate risks. In his organization, no one in their right mind would go out on a limb, and that means missed opportunities. In fact, the only one who is allowed to fail is "The Donald." And he never admits a mistake. That's the worst thing a manager can do.

 

no1 remember aaron....wierd.....wonder what happened to him then??? Maybe he's still out there 0.0

 

Or maybe there's a reason for that. Does the rest of the story seem consistent with the world we met in 1962?

[paya]

Maybe there's a reason he doesn't?

 

Or maybe there's a reason for that.

[Mark Arbour]

Is that a rhetorical question or we are supposed to answer?

 

 

NO, it doesn't! 1962 was strictly STRAIGHT, nobody ever mentioned gayness until JP came out. Well... or at least until Tonto caught JP molesting Stefan. I really understand her freaking out now, she was scared it's back again! And so it was... Poor Aaron His existence was erased from their life. And if Steven wasn't a war hero... well that's an interesting thing, Steven was a war hero while Aaron was some damn faggot scum that doesn't deserve any remembrance...

 

 

 

Who says Aaron is faggot scum? He's not out to anyone.

[paya]

Who says Aaron is faggot scum?

[methodwriter85]

Well that was only from the "what if" category as in "what Aaron probably heard when/if he came out/was come out". It may be quite possible he never had come out - but then wouldn't he have been celebrated in the Hayes family as a war hero?

 

That's a good point. Maybe he was outed in some way, and the Hayes family disowned him. It really is interesting to see how the Hayes family were before they got ripped apart.