Poor Man's Son

centexhairysub · April 6, 2011

Hmmm, well what to say about chapter 6 .

Well, Gathan got shot.

Tiffany moved out.

Robbie and Will had a good conversation.

Will and John had good oral.

The thing that sticks with me is still that Gathan and Stef are still having sex, and it is still there in a completely bad way for me..... Am I the only one bothered by the fact that a 17 year old is having sex with someone old enough to be his grandfather. I live in Texas and I can tell you that in 2000, if Stef and Gathan slept together; they were breaking the law. I really don't consider myself to be a prude or even very judgemental but an approximately 40 year age difference is a little much for me. I understand that some have made a big deal out of Stef sleeping with Gathan to help him get over his issues with not thinking he was a good lover, that he raped his partners, etc... but this is getting a little old.

I keep trying to get into and stay into this story but for the first time in the CAP series that is proving to be a really hard thing to do. Is it just me???

BeysJoshersLepton V2 · April 6, 2011

The highlight for me was very much the conversation between Robbie & Wil. I also feel slightly at odds over Gathan & Stef but I know I am a bit of a prude so perhaps thats more my issue, I know that when I have children I would not want such a huge age gap in their sexual partners but Mark has yet to produce anything but fantastic work so I trust him.

Hermetically Sealed · April 6, 2011

Can't say that I have any respect for Will and his attitude towards his parents. He's coming off as an entitled little shit. Whether he likes it or not, he is only 13/14 years old, and his parents are not his friends, even if they can be friendly. If he screws up, not only does he get hurt, but they are responsible for his actions. If he wants to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, he can just move on out and make it on his own like the big man he thinks he is.

Not saying I would expect him to be all puppies and rainbows towards them, but that's a kid in desperate need of the business end of a paddle.

B1ue · April 6, 2011

I can't say you're completely wrong, Hermitically, because Will is acting like a little shit, especailly towards Jeanine, but I don't think the approach would work. It'd only make him more defensive, I think, and prove that they really are out to get him.

I hope he does realize, soon, that his parents have reasons for their actions beyond driving him crazy. I'm also slightly disapointed in Robbie for not explaining to Will why Jeanine gets to say what goes. I hope Brad backs her up more when he gets in. Or Gathan does, since he's proving capable of explaining things to Brad and Wills of the world.

Edit: RE: Stef and Gathan. It doesn't really bother me. That's not to say I think it's perfectly fine. In fact, I try not to think about it, since I can't mentally place myself in either character. So I more or less gloss over it mentally, refusing to let it shake my suspension of disbelief.

One Cheap Suit · April 6, 2011

I really like the story. I really don't like the blue cursive writing, I can't read it on screen very well and have to use a screen reader to read it to me, which is a little weird to have a mechanical voice talking sexy talk, it's a little Steven Hawking. But whatever on the Gathan/Stef thing, and Will is a kid without a filter between his brain and his mouth - just like lots of teenagers.

Mark Arbour · April 6, 2011

I really like the story. I really don't like the blue cursive writing, I can't read it on screen very well and have to use a screen reader to read it to me, which is a little weird to have a mechanical voice talking sexy talk, it's a little Steven Hawking. But whatever on the Gathan/Stef thing, and Will is a kid without a filter between his brain and his mouth - just like lots of teenagers.

Sorry about the blue writing. I can change it if someone has better suggestions, but I think it would be hot to hear Steven Hawking reading it.

Regarding Gathan and Stef "still" having sex. I see this as an interlude thing, something to help Gathan move on to the next step of his sexual life. "Still" implies that it's been going on for a while. In fact, they started having sex on a Friday (or was it Thursday) and it's just now Tuesday.

I could make Will this amazing, lovable character, or I could make him a teenager. I chose the latter.

methodwriter85 · April 6, 2011

Will's an extremely realistic teenager. Bright, but a know-it-all, and a strong sense of "I know I'm right and the adults around me are wrong."

Will needs to make a huge mistake at some point about something, I think.

KYE · April 6, 2011

Regarding Gathan and Stef "still" having sex. I see this as an interlude thing, something to help Gathan move on to the next step of his sexual life. "Still" implies that it's been going on for a while. In fact, they started having sex on a Friday (or was it Thursday) and it's just now Tuesday.

With all due respect, even though they have only been "having sex" less than a week you've seemed to have developed a close relationship between the two that centers on a sexual relationship. Even though Stef is in an open relationship with JP, this seems to be the closest sexual relationship you have developed for Stef with one person since JP and Stef becoming partners. Stef even rides in the ambulance instead of Brad when the attempt was on Brad's life. What I do not like is Stef's non-caring attitute about the others in his family with this relationship, i.e. Will's feelings, JJ's dislike or jealousy of Gathan, JP, Robbie, and even how he seems to be telling Brad to F off and to keep his nose out of it. Surely not all these people are going to say "oh no big deal Stef and pat him on the back saying way to go". Also no thoughts about the family that has raised Gathan back in Claremont. But yet Stef and Gathan seem to only stop having sex long enough to tell Brad how to be a parent. So we have a slut and a 17 year old rapist as parenting experts, telling someone how to raise his loud mouthed sexually active 13 year old (who the 17 year old has also messed with). This without having to deal with the crazy home life this kid has that includes 3 GAY guys living in the same house that all have screwed his mother getting her pregnant not knowing which Gay guy is the father. No wonder the kid his having problems respecting his mom or listening to anyone.

In another direction; I thought Kevin and Cody had developed a close relationship were Kevin even had become jealous of Cody possibly being with someone else. Many have said they couldn't see Cody as a father, What about Kevin and Cody as a couple helping raise a kid? How does this affect their relationship? Guess we'll find out. Does Kevin even know Cody might be a Daddy?

Edited April 6, 2011 by KYE

Ivy · April 6, 2011

I also think Will is being a typical teenager at this point, just with more money and resources than most.

Speaking from experience, it's hard when you have two sets of parents (divorced) and living in two separate houses that you have to answer to. Will has three parents living in the same household, along with a few other adults present at any given time. As a headstrong teen, I can see him feeling oh so suffocated, oppressed, and spied on with all those adults around, not to mention brothers. Is it right that he speaks to Jeanine the way he does? No. But he's been acting this way for a few years now, and if no one put a stop to it when it started, it's probably not going to change until he grows up a bit more. He's Brad all over again, fine-cool-easygoing as long as things are going his way.

Ok so what I'm really interested in is Tiffany moved out...Where did she go? Is it permanent? What do Matt and Wade have to say about this? If the breakup is permanent, will she still want a baby as a single mother? Yeah, probably jumping the gun a bit with some of those questions, but Tiffany is younger than Jeanine and a lot of the story content so far has dealt with age related relationship issues. No matter how Tiffany and Jeanine feel about each other, they are in different places in their age related maturity level and how they deal with issues.

Personally, and I'll admit, my moral compass is way screwed up, but I just don't see it worth leaving your committed partner because you're pissed off that she had a one night stand when you're both pregnant from sleeping with two men at once. It wasn't like she was out on the prowl, it was more or less drunken comfort sex between friends. It's not like Cody was trying to steal her away or something. And it's probably not the first time Cody & Jeanine have slept together, though we may never know. Eh, but that's just me looking at it from the outside. I know there are many more emotions at play when it's happening to you.

Daisy139 · April 6, 2011

I agree that Will is a very realistic teenager, and just how many teenagers would put up with Jeannine's attitude and still come out respecting their parents anyway? She treated him like a little turd. Sorry. It's very hard for me as an adult to respect other adults who are disrespectful to me, and I'd think a teenager would have an even harder time to do that, even if society says he's supposed to because he's her son. I"m not sure for how long she's been treating him like this... but his behavior isn't coming as a surprise in a scene like that one...

I'm still not seeing the age difference as a problem. A friend of mine married a professor who was about 30 years older than her when she was in her 20s. They're happy, have a kid, have a cute house, he helped her get back on her feet jobwise after she failed out of grad school... they're perfect for each other.

About Stef's behavior towards Gathan, I don't see him as getting too close to Gathan. Gathan is a teenager who just took a bullet for someone very important to him, and yes, they are having an interlude so he cares about him.... but not necessarily on a level comparable to JP or a close family member I would think. And given the interlude and that Brad maybe still isn't Gathan's best buddy, I can see why Stef would ride with Gathan, not Brad. Stef is still my all-time favorite character.

Jeannine is really sinking in my list of likable characters. I really dislike it when parents treat their kids disrespectfully just because they legally can. There's no justification for that. And she seems like her moral compass is a bit off in general....I dislike people who take relationship problems as a justification to go cheat.

Very interesting developments in that home life.

Going back to Will....I actually think there's something cute about how he's trying to train/manipulate his 3 parents. I like him

Tommy_B · April 7, 2011

Thanks for the input. I was going with Tommy's assertion there that the look was beach-grubby instead of preppy...that's why I figured Will would avoid preppy clothes and dress more skater, except on the days he needs to wear a suit. The videos I've seen of Malibu High students seemed to back up Tommy's "not preppy at all" assessment of the fashion there. And I was going with my own experience that skater/surf boys(cue Avril Lavigne) would never dress preppy, and preppy boys wouldn't dress skater. But I guess I should have asked the people from that area.

Do you agree with my DKNY/Urban Outfitters assessment for JJ? He kinda comes off as someone who would dress just a little too mature and chic for his age, as if to make up for being so short and looking so young. As for John, he does seem like a total Abercrombie Boy. In fact, I bet he looks just like an AF model named Colton Haynes...

Anyway, it's fascinating to learn about the different styles going on at different schools at the same time. At my school, the look was either hip-hop with stuff like Roccawear and Timbaland, or baggy Tommy Hilfiger/Nautica, or the AF/American Eagle stuff, or the skater punk look.

Oh, and I learned something that might be important to the story-

http://www.malibuhig...servicelearning

Malibu High School requires kids to do twenty hours of community service each year. I'm guessing JJ will get out those hours by teaching kids at the skating rink, while Will is going to work at the WeHo mission. Maybe the community service stuff will get JJ to act just a little less bitch?

Tim is right that there are all kinds of looks. Malibu High is much more laid back than Beverly Hills High, the Brentwood School and places like that, but you do have the people who dress preppy, if preppy means wearing any thing by Abercrombie. You can be grubby and grungy in Abercromie because they made t-shirts that are like supposed to be grungy. There are also the guys who wear Faconnable because there is a lot of money at the school even if a lot of the big bucks kids go other places, but it isn't like the school is massively prep, but they are there.

What is interesting is if you go 20 minutes away to a place like Inglewood, it is a whole different world.

centexhairysub · April 7, 2011

With all due respect, even though they have only been "having sex" less than a week you've seemed to have developed a close relationship between the two that centers on a sexual relationship. Even though Stef is in an open relationship with JP, this seems to be the closest sexual relationship you have developed for Stef with one person since JP and Stef becoming partners. Stef even rides in the ambulance instead of Brad when the attempt was on Brad's life. What I do not like is Stef's non-caring attitute about the others in his family with this relationship, i.e. Will's feelings, JJ's dislike or jealousy of Gathan, JP, Robbie, and even how he seems to be telling Brad to F off and to keep his nose out of it. Surely not all these people are going to say "oh no big deal Stef and pat him on the back saying way to go". Also no thoughts about the family that has raised Gathan back in Claremont. But yet Stef and Gathan seem to only stop having sex long enough to tell Brad how to be a parent. So we have a slut and a 17 year old rapist as parenting experts, telling someone how to raise his loud mouthed sexually active 13 year old (who the 17 year old has also messed with). This without having to deal with the crazy home life this kid has that includes 3 GAY guys living in the same house that all have screwed his mother getting her pregnant not knowing which Gay guy is the father. No wonder the kid his having problems respecting his mom or listening to anyone.

This is sort of where I am, the age thing does really bother me however. I guess if it was 20 or even 25 years apart in age, it might not bother me so much but 40 years is just too much, but I don't guess I can pick an exact age gap where it goes from being okay to creepy so..... I think Kye is right on the button on how I feel though, I think a big part of me is that it isn't how long Stef and Gathan have been having sex or even how much but how intimate they have become in such a short time. I really do feel that Stef is being really disrespectful to several other members of the family.

I realize that JP and Stef have an open relationship to a certain extent and maybe JP is back at Stanford just screwing every hot guy there but I don't think so. If JP was doing what Stef was doing, I think a lot more people would be upset.

And then there is Will, Stef and Will are blood brothers like Brad and Stef are and have this great bond but even after Stef finds out that Will cares for Gathan in some way and might have had something going on, Stef continues to sleep with Gathan; it is like telling Will, well you don't matter as much to me as getting laid but call me and we will do lunch. Now, I personally would much prefer Will with John, and Will seems to be leaning that way but Stef doesn't know this.

JJ has all kind of issues with Gathan and once again, Stef and JJ are suppose to be tight as well, I mean for all intents and purposes Stef is both JJ and Will grandfather, and yet he doesn't care enough about JJ to stay away from or at least stay out of bed with someone he has a major issue with?

Robbie doesn't know about this yet and I have to wonder how he will react. Robbie and Brad are just finally back together and seem to be happy and now Stef is going to sleep with Robbie's cousin and maybe cause all kinds of issues between Brad and Robbie, if Robbie takes it badly and Brad ends up defending Stef's behaviour?

I don't know, maybe Mark is setting a scene where it turns out that Stef has had a stroke or has a brain tumor and it is effecting his judgement and behaviour; I hope there is something going on to explain Stef's behaviour and attitude about this. I know that Stef has always sort of been a little slutty but really not since the first book in the series when he was a young teenager has Stef behaved so irresponsible, at least in my opinion. As others have stated, Stef has always been one of the four or five favorite charecters in this series for me; but my respect level for him is sliding down rapidly in this story.

Now, having said all of that, I know that none of these people are real, this is a work of fiction but after spending so much time reading and loving all these stories; I have developed a real affinity for so many of the charecters in the CAP series. It just really bothers me to see such an important charecter behaving in a manner that seems so against their idea of family fidelity.

methodwriter85 · April 7, 2011

I'm with you in being bothered by Stefan's behavior, but I'm kinda just shrugging my shoulders and going, 'It's Stefan. He likes to have sex with teenagers, so why not his grandson's love interest?"

I'm sure when Courtney's guy friends are old enough(let's say 16 in 2011), Stefan will start flirting with them and having sex with them as well. His grandkids are going to supply him with a fresh batch of young teenagers to have sex with for years to come.

Edited April 7, 2011 by methodwriter85

rjo · April 7, 2011

I'm going to try this again. Stef is Stef, Not many people could do what he does. Stef is try to give Gathan confidence, something he needed. I believe it will go on for a little longer. As for JJ maybe he should grow up and not think only about himself. Will has John back and I think that is what Will really wants. JP understands Stef. Who here would not like to sleep with Stef even if he is in the 50s.

Will may be a teenager but I think he has his head on straight. Will sees the world in black and white, very little gray. That can be a hard road to travel but Will is a young man who believes his word is his bond, which makes him in my book almost noble. Honestly, Brad is not the easiest father to have. Robbie I think would be much easier to live with. I also think because Brad and Will have been so close in the past. Will uses Brad against Jeanine. What teenagers hasn't done that. Brad and Jeanine have not been a team in raising Will and the other kids. I think JP and Isidore did a better job. Brad needs to learn you can't be a buddy and dad at same time and it comes a time you have to trust your children to do the right thing. Maybe this is the time.

One thing I feel odd why did Stef ride to the hospital with Gathan and Brad did not. Maybe the next chapter will tell us.

Edited April 7, 2011 by rjo

KYE · April 7, 2011

I'm with you in being bothered by Stefan's behavior, but I'm kinda just shrugging my shoulders and going, 'It's Stefan. He likes to have sex with teenagers, so why not his grandson's love interest?"

I'm sure when Courtney's guy friends are old enough(let's say 16 in 2011), Stefan will start flirting with them and having sex with them as well. His grandkids are going to supply him with a fresh batch of young teenagers to have sex with for years to come.

So what makes Stefan's conduct any better than Sam's conduct was in the story "Be Rad"? (Scratching my head and wondering) We know what the family's reaction was to Sam but with Stef, oh well Stef is Stef.

KYE · April 7, 2011

Ok so what I'm really interested in is Tiffany moved out...Where did she go? Is it permanent? What do Matt and Wade have to say about this? If the breakup is permanent, will she still want a baby as a single mother? Yeah, probably jumping the gun a bit with some of those questions, but Tiffany is younger than Jeanine and a lot of the story content so far has dealt with age related relationship issues. No matter how Tiffany and Jeanine feel about each other, they are in different places in their age related maturity level and how they deal with issues.

Personally, and I'll admit, my moral compass is way screwed up, but I just don't see it worth leaving your committed partner because you're pissed off that she had a one night stand when you're both pregnant from sleeping with two men at once. It wasn't like she was out on the prowl, it was more or less drunken comfort sex between friends. It's not like Cody was trying to steal her away or something. And it's probably not the first time Cody & Jeanine have slept together, though we may never know. Eh, but that's just me looking at it from the outside. I know there are many more emotions at play when it's happening to you.

Let's see... Tiffany and Jeanine mutually agree they want a child of their own and that Tiffany will try to get pregnant by Matt. Jeanine then has sex with Brad and Robbie and gets pregnant herself, not part of their relationship agreement. When Tiffany gets mad because Jeanine had sex with Brad and Robbie, which was not what they agreed to, Jeanine gets mad and lonely and has sex (cheats on her) with Cody also not part of their agreed relationship. Plus Jeanine keeps her second romp, with Cody this time, secret for months making leaving Tiffany to think Brad or Robbie is the father of Jeanine's baby. Add to that the fact that Tiffany's breeders (Matt and Wade) do not live in the same house but in a city miles way. Jeanine's breeders (all 3 of them) live in the same house. Can Tiffany trust Jeanine not to find her way to another's bed in the SAME house every time they have a spat? How much support does Tiffany really feel she can now get from Jeanine in raising the child since Jeanine is also with child and likely to screw the guys living with them again. Plus Tiffany may be wondering if this household is really going to be the best place to try and raise a kid. Yep, I can see why she would leave. Of course Brad, Robbie, Cody, and Jeanine are all innocent in this breakup and bear no responsibility at all.

Edited April 7, 2011 by KYE

mmike1969 · April 7, 2011

I doubt greatgrandpa JP or grandpa/grandma Carswold (if the dad is Matt) or grandma/pa Danfield will allow Tiffany to starve or be homeless so I am not worried. BTW, if Tiffany is bi, you can make HER the object of Gathen's desire.

Mark Arbour · April 7, 2011

Visualize this: You are a wealthy, successful man in your mid-50s. You see the world in shades of gray, and you don't get hung up on societal rules and mores. You know that most of those were developed by uptight people that hate your kind anyway. You don't have all the hangups about sex that Americans seem to be born with. In front of you is a 17 (almost 18) year old guy in an amazing amount of pain, and you have it in your power to help him through some of it. To do that, you have to violate some of those rules, and maybe annoy some members of your own family, but you've seen this guy in action, and with your astute instincts, you know he has major potential. You can offer him sexual love and intimacy, even though it will be fleeting, knowing that ultimately it will probably generate into a more stable friendship, a conventional mentor thing. How do you balance out the cost-benefit here? Of course, your partner could be upset, but he understands you, and he knows what kind of guy you are and what your motives are. Besides, didn't he have a fling with a young guy about 10 years ago, when the age difference was just as pronounced?

So what do you do?

rjo · April 8, 2011

Hasn't Stef been doing that since befriending Brad in 1973? Thank you Mark you said it better than any of us could have.

centexhairysub · April 8, 2011

Visualize this: You are a wealthy, successful man in your mid-50s. You see the world in shades of gray, and you don't get hung up on societal rules and mores. You know that most of those were developed by uptight people that hate your kind anyway. You don't have all the hangups about sex that Americans seem to be born with. In front of you is a 17 (almost 18) year old guy in an amazing amount of pain, and you have it in your power to help him through some of it. To do that, you have to violate some of those rules, and maybe annoy some members of your own family, but you've seen this guy in action, and with your astute instincts, you know he has major potential. You can offer him sexual love and intimacy, even though it will be fleeting, knowing that ultimately it will probably generate into a more stable friendship, a conventional mentor thing. How do you balance out the cost-benefit here? Of course, your partner could be upset, but he understands you, and he knows what kind of guy you are and what your motives are. Besides, didn't he have a fling with a young guy about 10 years ago, when the age difference was just as pronounced?

So what do you do?

Okay, I am going to post this last comment on the Stef and Gathan issue and then not get into anything to do with it again. I would not continue to sleep with someone that has so many psychological issues that revolve around sex. I just really feel that Stef seems to be willing to risk several of his family relationships for someone that he just met in the last year. I am not even going to be willing to say that Stef doesn’t have a point and maybe he is doing this for all the right reasons, but I just question why someone of his maturity and intelligence would risk so much when as Mark says it will be a fleeting relationship. Now, I realize that Stef and Gathan will be linked by family and perhaps even friendship or a mentor type relationship for years to come; and I even believe Stef is doing this to help Gathan get over an issue but wouldn’t a really good therapist have been a better way to go? Okay, now maybe the therapist wouldn’t have been nearly as much fun but… I have learned that sometimes Mark does something and then pulls it all together later in the story and maybe that is what is going on here, I really hope so. I will say that Mark has somewhat of a point about the fact that JP has gotten involved with guys quite a bit younger than himself at least twice. I will concede that fact but would say that in both cases there were major differences.

With Mouse, there was a 28 year age difference. Mouse was 21 and out of college and they both found out there were HIV positive and that bonded them together. Now, as we all know, JP later found out his was a false positive but the initial diagnosis bonded them together. Mouse was of legal age and out of school and I don’t care what anyone says you grow up a lot from 18 to 21 as you go through college.

With Marcel, there was a 32 year age difference. Once again, Marcel was 22 and between his college and doctoral programs. Now, I realize this is only about nine or ten years difference between the age gap of Gathan and Stef but the fact is once again, Marcel was legal had had gone through college and had that extra level of maturity.

Several of my friends have been really shocked by my stance on this issue, I am usually the one that says age, race, or sex doesn’t matter; you can not control who you fall in love with nor who you find attractive. I can’t even say why this bothers me so much and maybe that is part of the reason I am so bothered by it.

In post # 189, rjo, says “Stef is Stef“; well that is circular logic and does nothing to bolster or support anyone’s position. I know I am going to get into trouble for this next statement because I am going to take that idea to an extreme point of view but that is like says well a murderer is a murderer or a rapist is a rapist, it doesn’t excuse or explain anything.

Another issue, I have is on a purely personal level, I am not a child and do not need to be lectured to just because you don’t agree with my ideas. The idea that rjo is going to “try this again“ because obviously the rest of us are not smart enough to understand the situation is really patronizing. Now, maybe I am taking this way to personally, I have actually gotten a couple of personal emails basically attacking my position as an attack on Mark’s writing or talent; it is neither. I think Mark is a remarkable writer and has an amazing level of talent.

As I stated earlier, I am going to try and make this my last posting dealing with the Stef and Gathan issue. I am probably taking this too personally but as I said, I have gotten emails from a couple of different people on my personal email account berating me for some of my post on this forum. I have never been a shy flower or someone that stayed in the background and I have always expressed by opinion even when it is not a popular one. I don’t do this to antagonize anyone or to try and stir the pot but to give feedback and express how I feel on a subject. I am not trying to berate or belittle anyone else’s opinion and if I have done so any anyway I humbly apologize in advance.

methodwriter85 · April 8, 2011

You have NOTHING to apologize for, Cent. Nothing. You have been expressisng your opinion in a pretty respectful way, and you do not deserve to get berated by people from this forum for your opinion.

rjo · April 8, 2011

I am sorry if any of you thought that I was lecturing you. By the phrase "I will try this again" I meant I was having trouble posting my comments. I had tried it twice before and before I finished them they disappeared. I would never dis any comment by any of you ever. All of us are here because we love Mark's stories. Again I am very sorry if you got that impression. I hope you all will forgive me.

sat8997 · April 8, 2011

For anyone receiving nasty-o-grams just because they've got a differing opinion, might I suggest you just forward them on to me. I'll be perfectly happy to...'ah'...explain a few things to them. :2hands:

One of the beauties of fiction, is its ability to evoke such differing emotions. I think any author that can bring about such differences in opinion from the same story must be doing something right. I, for one, love to read all the different views here in Mark's forum (except for Jeremy's - they usually just piss me off).

Everyone please keep up the good work!

Mark Arbour · April 8, 2011

For anyone receiving nasty-o-grams just because they've got a differing opinion, might I suggest you just forward them on to me. I'll be perfectly happy to...'ah'...explain a few things to them. :2hands:

One of the beauties of fiction, is its ability to evoke such differing emotions. I think any author that can bring about such differences in opinion from the same story must be doing something right. I, for one, love to read all the different views here in Mark's forum (except for Jeremy's - they usually just piss me off).

Everyone please keep up the good work!

Such wisdom, from someone so young.

Mark Arbour · April 8, 2011

Okay, I am going to post this last comment on the Stef and Gathan issue and then not get into anything to do with it again. I would not continue to sleep with someone that has so many psychological issues that revolve around sex. I just really feel that Stef seems to be willing to risk several of his family relationships for someone that he just met in the last year. I am not even going to be willing to say that Stef doesn’t have a point and maybe he is doing this for all the right reasons, but I just question why someone of his maturity and intelligence would risk so much when as Mark says it will be a fleeting relationship. Now, I realize that Stef and Gathan will be linked by family and perhaps even friendship or a mentor type relationship for years to come; and I even believe Stef is doing this to help Gathan get over an issue but wouldn’t a really good therapist have been a better way to go? Okay, now maybe the therapist wouldn’t have been nearly as much fun but… I have learned that sometimes Mark does something and then pulls it all together later in the story and maybe that is what is going on here, I really hope so. I will say that Mark has somewhat of a point about the fact that JP has gotten involved with guys quite a bit younger than himself at least twice. I will concede that fact but would say that in both cases there were major differences.

With Mouse, there was a 28 year age difference. Mouse was 21 and out of college and they both found out there were HIV positive and that bonded them together. Now, as we all know, JP later found out his was a false positive but the initial diagnosis bonded them together. Mouse was of legal age and out of school and I don’t care what anyone says you grow up a lot from 18 to 21 as you go through college.

With Marcel, there was a 32 year age difference. Once again, Marcel was 22 and between his college and doctoral programs. Now, I realize this is only about nine or ten years difference between the age gap of Gathan and Stef but the fact is once again, Marcel was legal had had gone through college and had that extra level of maturity.

Several of my friends have been really shocked by my stance on this issue, I am usually the one that says age, race, or sex doesn’t matter; you can not control who you fall in love with nor who you find attractive. I can’t even say why this bothers me so much and maybe that is part of the reason I am so bothered by it.

In post # 189, rjo, says “Stef is Stef“; well that is circular logic and does nothing to bolster or support anyone’s position. I know I am going to get into trouble for this next statement because I am going to take that idea to an extreme point of view but that is like says well a murderer is a murderer or a rapist is a rapist, it doesn’t excuse or explain anything.

Another issue, I have is on a purely personal level, I am not a child and do not need to be lectured to just because you don’t agree with my ideas. The idea that rjo is going to “try this again“ because obviously the rest of us are not smart enough to understand the situation is really patronizing. Now, maybe I am taking this way to personally, I have actually gotten a couple of personal emails basically attacking my position as an attack on Mark’s writing or talent; it is neither. I think Mark is a remarkable writer and has an amazing level of talent.

As I stated earlier, I am going to try and make this my last posting dealing with the Stef and Gathan issue. I am probably taking this too personally but as I said, I have gotten emails from a couple of different people on my personal email account berating me for some of my post on this forum. I have never been a shy flower or someone that stayed in the background and I have always expressed by opinion even when it is not a popular one. I don’t do this to antagonize anyone or to try and stir the pot but to give feedback and express how I feel on a subject. I am not trying to berate or belittle anyone else’s opinion and if I have done so any anyway I humbly apologize in advance.

I have no problem with your posts, your opinions, and I value feedback. It would be disturbing in the extreme if you were a shy wallflower.

I understand where you're coming from, but there are peripheral issues here (not with you, but in general) that bother me. One is that it seems there's this double-standard, where an older man can date a much younger woman and it's alright, but an older man dating a much younger man isn't. I've addressed this issue before, and I'm sure I'll address it again, but to me, as long as both parties are over the age of consent, I find little to fault in a liaison. At what point does an age difference become "wrong?" Is a 35 year difference OK, but 36 is not?

The second issue revolves mental health. Therapy is usually the prescribed solution for someone like Gathan, and there's a good chance it will help him, but it's not the only way, and the methods therapists use are not always effective. I think so many times people ignore the resources around them, and in this case, Stef is just doing his bit to help Gathan along, in his own fictional way.

Finally, it really disturbs me that people are bitching at you for stating your opinion. That's what these forums are for, and quite frankly, these forums are the reason I'm at GA. This interface, the ability to get feedback and enjoy these interactions, is what makes this site valuable to me as a writer.

Poor Man's Son

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