The 8 point story arc or What my writing was missing

[Kenny Deheart]

Yesterday I came across a website that gave me a simple plot outline template that I now realize was what is missing from my writing. I have actually been going through all the bits that I have written and filling in plot for my plotless and unfinished stories. I can free write with no problem but I always end up loosing direction after a while and no matter how hard I try to create a decent plot, it always end up being too complicated and and I end up loosing interest in the story. I am the kind of person that sometimes needs things spelled out in a simple fashion and these 8 points do that.

 

1. Stasis

2. Trigger

3. The quest

4. Surprise

5. Critical choice

6. Climax

7. Reversal

8. Resolution

 

 

The link below explains each point in detail and is being extremely helpful for me.

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/how-to-structure-a-story-the-eight-point-arc/

Posting it here in hope it helps others who have similar problems

Edited May 31, 2013 by Kenny Deheart

[Cia]

An 8 plot point arc is one way to do it. There are many to be truthful. The best thing you can do is research, research, research and then write, write, write. Figure out what methods are out there that seem worthwhile to you and then use them. The only way to improve your writing is to learn and do.

[Dolores Esteban]

Very useful advice. Thank you.

[The Pecman]

I don't think you can always reduce a novel to a bullet-point list. There are some interesting novels out there with unconventional structures that kind of defy rules, lists, and expectations.

 

Having said that: I think the basic ingredients of conflict, compelling characters, and an ebb and flow to the drama -- with a twist about 2/3 of the way in, and a resolution in the final chapter -- are all pretty standard. And that works in movies, too.

 

Jack Bickham's book Scene and Structure goes into a lot of this in detail. I think the key is to be able to see your novel at a glance and figure out where the dramatic highlights have got to hit. Having said that, I know there are writers who can crank out novels without an outline (I'm not one of them), and they somehow manage to create best-sellers with huge audiences. 

 

I do absolutely agree with Nigel Watts' observation that At some stage, your protagonist needs to make a crucial decision; a critical choice. You can point to some of the greatest stories in literature, film, and the stage that all do this: a moral choice that sets the adventure in place, or forces the hero to decide which direction to go in. The first time I read that was in Joseph Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces, and at the time, I was fairly stunned in realizing how many great works hinge on the protagonist making a difficult decision. 

Edited June 2, 2013 by The Pecman

[Thorn Wilde]

I think it would sort of stifle my creativity if I were to break down my stories into lists like this. I might be able to do it as an after thought once the story is actually finished, but if I did it while writing I believe it would demotivate me.

[Sasha Distan]

When i was at Uni, there was a book on the list for creative writing. i looked up the author, whose only published books were on how to be an author and how to get published. she had never actually published a fiction book, the thing she purported to be master at doing. i threw the book away. it also contained a list like this.

 

If it helps you, great. But i think all "how to write..." ideas should be taken with more salt than English fish and chips.

[The Pecman]

When i was at Uni, there was a book on the list for creative writing. i looked up the author, whose only published books were on how to be an author and how to get published. she had never actually published a fiction book, the thing she purported to be master at doing. i threw the book away. it also contained a list like this.

 

I don't think the lists necessarily work, but there are some good books on writing fiction that helped me quite a bit. The three that helped me the most:

 

The First Five Pages

by Noah Lukeman

Fireside Books [iSBN #068485743X]

 

How to Write a Damn Good Novel

by James N. Frey

St. Martin's Press [iSBN #0312010443 and #0312104782

 

and

 

On Writing

by Stephen King

Pocket Books [iSBN #0743455967]

 

Each book runs about 300 pages and costs under $10 each in paperback (half that if you pick them up used). All of them are useful to a point, with solid gold nuggets of wisdom scattered throughout, but none is perfect. I've read at least 25 or 30 books on writing (and have a shelf full of dozens more I haven't yet cracked open), I've taken a half-dozen college-level classes on writing many years ago, and I made a pretty good living as a writer and editor for a half-dozen newsstand magazines for over two decades. I readily admit that I'm far from knowing all there is to know about writing. But the three books above taught me more about writing fiction than anything else I've seen, heard, or experienced.

 

Lukeman's book gives a good rundown on the top 25 things not to put in a novel -- specific items that will immediately turn off editors, agents, or anybody else who knows how to recognize amateurish elements. James Frey's original book (a classic that's been used in college-level writing classes throughout the 1990s) goes into great detail on how to build up the strengths you already have, and figure out what works and what doesn't. Frey's second book, How to Write a Damn Good Novel II: Advanced Techniques for Dramatic Storytelling, isn't quite as enthralling, but provides another dozen or so good ideas that can help any budding novelist.

 

Stephen King's book is more a general philosophy on how the process works; the first half is a biographical essay on how and why he came to be a writer, and the second goes into the nuts and bolts on writing. King also gives the very good advice that to be a good writer, you also have to read -- a lot. And by that I mean published books with solid literary merit, not just amateur Net fiction posted for free. I find a steady diet of the latter can actually hurt you in the long run, simply because most of the truly good fiction out there are those you have to pay for.

[Thorn Wilde]

I have never read a volume on how to write, nor have I ever taken any creative writing classes. I just read a lot, and then I write when stories get in my head. I'm not saying that classes or books or tips from authors can't be helpful (and I have spoken to quite a few published authors who have shared their experiences and their creative processes and the like), but I do think that the most important thing to do is figure out a method that works for you. No one can really tell you how to be a writer, because their minds don't necessarily work like yours does. If you can find other people's tips and tricks and lists and what have you helpful, great. Good for you. But don't be discouraged if you don't. If someone else's method doesn't do it for you, find your own. Writing takes brains, literally, because there's nowhere else for your unique stories to come from. If you can come up with a story, then you can come up with a way to finish it, too. All you need, in the end, is your mind.

[The Pecman]

I have never read a volume on how to write, nor have I ever taken any creative writing classes.

 

Don't knock it if you haven't tried it. I doubt that I got more than four or five good ideas from any of the books on writing I've ever read, but they if they even gave me a hint on something I'd never considered before, or perhaps forced me to consider an idea from a completely different point of view, then it helped. Just understanding the common mistakes most amateur authors make was fairly illuminating. 

 

I think the two biggest things I ever learned -- and they were significant lessons -- were: 1) don't be boring, and 2) most scenes work better if you start in the middle. Every major best-selling novel I've ever read generally follows both guidelines very well; too much online fiction does not. There are always exceptions, but writers who have the talent to recognize the need to avoid following the rules is something I don't see too often.

 

I wrote non-fiction for 25 years after taking only two college-level creative writing classes, and did well when newsstand magazines were flourishing (which has sadly not been the case since 9/11). Writing fiction required a totally different set of muscles for me, and while I started writing my first novel before reading any books on fiction, I read a couple about halfway through the book, and it set me on a path that revealed the mechanism of storytelling in a way that was illuminating and very logical. It's kind of like watching a magician's performance, being amazed, then being allowed to watch the same illusions backstage, where all the tricks are revealed. Knowing how it all works doesn't necessarily make you a better performer, but it does give you a very different perspective than only being a spectator.

Edited June 7, 2013 by The Pecman

[Thorn Wilde]

Don't knock it if you haven't tried it. I doubt that I got more than four or five good ideas from any of the books on writing I've ever read, but they if they even gave me a hint on something I'd never considered before, or perhaps forced me to consider an idea from a completely different point of view, then it helped. Just understanding the common mistakes most amateur authors make was fairly illuminating. 

 

I think the two biggest things I ever learned -- and they were significant lessons -- were: a) don't be boring, and most scenes work better if you start in the middle. Every major best-selling novel I've ever read generally follows both guidelines very well; too much online fiction does not. There are always exceptions, but writers who have the talent to recognize the need to avoid following the rules is something I don't see too often.

 

I wrote non-fiction for 25 years after taking only two college-level creative writing classes, and did well when newsstand magazines were flourishing (which has sadly not been the case since 9/11). Writing fiction required a totally different set of muscles for me, and while I started writing my first novel before reading any books on fiction, I read a couple about halfway through the book, and it set me on a path that revealed the mechanism of storytelling in a way that was illuminating and very logical. It's kind of like watching a magician's performance, being amazed, then being allowed to watch the same illusions backstage, where all the tricks are revealed. Knowing how it all works doesn't necessarily make you a better performer, but it does give you a very different perspective than only being a spectator.

 

I wasn't knocking it, like I said, if a person can find it helpful then all the more power to them. I was only saying that for me, personally, it has felt like it would be a waste of time. I find that rules stifle my creativity. I've never had a problem with my process that I couldn't solve myself. Maybe if I find out one day that I do, I'll look into books and classes on the subject, but as it is, I just don't think that anyone can tell me how to write but me.

[Cia]

I wasn't knocking it, like I said, if a person can find it helpful then all the more power to them. I was only saying that for me, personally, it has felt like it would be a waste of time. I find that rules stifle my creativity. I've never had a problem with my process that I couldn't solve myself. Maybe if I find out one day that I do, I'll look into books and classes on the subject, but as it is, I just don't think that anyone can tell me how to write but me.

 

Really? So you knew how to drive all by yourself without reading the student driver handbook? Cook without ever touching a cookbook? Knew how to type the second you touched a keyboard? Look, I'm all for self-learning. I see no reason why a person has to take 'official' classes in subjects in order to learn about them ... but only someone very foolish would say that they know all there is to know about a subject themselves and can't learn from other sources.

 

No one can determine how an author writes other than the author themselves but the only true way to write well is to try all different styles and types of writing-following the rules and not following the rules. For instance, you use a very old style of using a speech tag with nearly every line of dialogue. I've found that successful modern writers are moving away from using tags and including actions to show the character's movements and the scene to show who is speaking. It's not wrong ... but it's not very popular nowadays because the emphasis has become SHOW don't TELL.

 

I'm not trying to tear you down, but I have to find the attitude of 'no one can tell me how to write but me' to be very short-sighted. No one is perfect; everyone can learn something new. The literary world is constantly evolving. GA is, in large part, focused on the principal that we are all here to share our writing and to grow as authors. if you aren't willing to take advantage of that, to learn from others, what's the purpose of sharing your writing at all?

[Thorn Wilde]

Really? So you knew how to drive all by yourself without reading the student driver handbook? Cook without ever touching a cookbook? Knew how to type the second you touched a keyboard? Look, I'm all for self-learning. I see no reason why a person has to take 'official' classes in subjects in order to learn about them ... but only someone very foolish would say that they know all there is to know about a subject themselves and can't learn from other sources.

 

No one can determine how an author writes other than the author themselves but the only true way to write well is to try all different styles and types of writing-following the rules and not following the rules. For instance, you use a very old style of using a speech tag with nearly every line of dialogue. I've found that successful modern writers are moving away from using tags and including actions to show the character's movements and the scene to show who is speaking. It's not wrong ... but it's not very popular nowadays because the emphasis has become SHOW don't TELL.

 

I'm not trying to tear you down, but I have to find the attitude of 'no one can tell me how to write but me' to be very short-sighted. No one is perfect; everyone can learn something new. The literary world is constantly evolving. GA is, in large part, focused on the principal that we are all here to share our writing and to grow as authors. if you aren't willing to take advantage of that, to learn from others, what's the purpose of sharing your writing at all?

 

With all due respect, I never said that I couldn't learn from other people. In fact, I believe I said that I read a lot, and my work is greatly influenced by the authors that I read and enjoy. What I said was that I find that check lists and the 'this is how you do it' kind of thinking stifles my creativity. I am here because I want feedback. I want people to tell me what about my writing they like and what they don't. Really, I do. What I don't like is the whole 'This is how you write a novel' thing, for myself, because I want to develop my style and my process. I have a process that works for me. I have no problem with people commenting on my product. In fact, I encourage it, and what you just said about speech tags is definitely something I'll take under consideration.

[Cia]

Writing books go way beyond 'you must do this or that or this in such and such sequence' however. You're doing yourself a great disservice by not exploring them, or 'classes' (there are free/cheap ones available) that force you to stretch your mind and your techniques. For instance, I own a really great book called Self-editing for Fiction Writers which talks about a lot of the bones of writing and editing. It's not always new information, but it's put out there for authors to learn from. There are things I've tried that I don't like, such as poetry, but I still stretch myself every once in a while. Doing so earned me a $25 gift card in a contest last year. No one says you have to use what you learn ... but if you don't at least try other ways how will you know if they are helpful or not?

 

You know that tip you like that I mentioned you? It came from that editing book..

[Former Member]

I, personally, have found that when I outline, I find myself in the same predicament as Thorn.  I've tried it on a number of occasions and it just...sucks, for me at least.  My best friend outlines EVERYTHING.  She wants to be sure she can follow her lines of thought as she writes.  But I find that I write the way I read: without necessarily knowing the ending.  Just as a reader might be surprised by a sudden character death, I go through the same sort of emotions when I write.  I've found that if I outline things and know precisely where things are going to go, I get disinterested and unmotivated.  It's like skipping to the ending of an amazing book only to realize that your favorite character dies somewhere between the ending pages.  After that you don't really want to read the book anymore right?

 

But even though this 8 point method wouldn't work for me, I'm always searching for ways to improve my writing and stretching my limits.  Normally I loathe writing in anything but first person, it's comfortable to me for some reason.  But I've found that I really need to explore other options and character development plans that just don't work in 1st.  So, currently I'm working on both a collection of shorts and a longer project that I don't entirely know where it's going, all in 3rd.  It's a struggle, but I'd like to see it through.  If only to prove to myself that I can do it.  I want other people to be able to tell me what works, which is largely why I joined GA in the first place.  Otherwise, I'll just fall into a 'safe' routine and my writing will become stagnant.  I think that's an author's worst dream - aside from making a Mary-Sure AND by some happenstance getting attached to it - is to reach a point when they either can't or don't want to learn anything or change anything about their writing style.  At least that's my worst nightmare.  I never, ever want to become predictable.  It's a surefire way to cause readers to lose interest in the things you write after you've caught their interest.

[Thorn Wilde]

Writing books go way beyond 'you must do this or that or this in such and such sequence' however. You're doing yourself a great disservice by not exploring them, or 'classes' (there are free/cheap ones available) that force you to stretch your mind and your techniques. For instance, I own a really great book called Self-editing for Fiction Writers which talks about a lot of the bones of writing and editing. It's not always new information, but it's put out there for authors to learn from. There are things I've tried that I don't like, such as poetry, but I still stretch myself every once in a while. Doing so earned me a $25 gift card in a contest last year. No one says you have to use what you learn ... but if you don't at least try other ways how will you know if they are helpful or not?

 

You know that tip you like that I mentioned you? It came from that editing book..

 

Again, I think you're taking my words out of context and reading more into them than what I've actually said. Just because I don't read writing books or take classes, that doesn't mean I don't challenge myself, stretch myself or take other people's advice. I try new things all the time, explore new language, write in a different tense, try different kinds of POV, test my patience with my characters, outline more, outline less, etc. This is where the fun of writing is for me. This is what makes it fun and not work––being analytical, figuring things out, doing things my way. 

 

What you said about speech tags is a comment on style. The 8-point story arc is about the process. My process works for me, and I see no point in fixing what ain't broke. I will take any amount of critique on the content of my story or my stylistic choices. Come at me, bro. Seriously. But I don't see why my process should have anything to do with you. The reason why I mentioned it at all was that I spent quite a few years being demotivated because the things I was being told I should do with regards to my writing process didn't work for me. I thought it might be helpful for other, less experienced writers to know that it's okay if these things don't work for you, you can do it your way.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Thorn Wilde

[Cia]

The original post isn't telling authors that they have to plot a story in set way, like you need to sit down and write all that out, it's simply telling you that these are major events that need to be hit in your plot. I've seen this 8 point plot arc before, I've seen 3 story act plot types as well. There are many theories about plot progression ... but I think any author will agree, you have to do something. For those who like a structured approach, this can be helpful to remind them of the different elements that should be added to write a good story.

 

I consider plot development to be just as vital to employ as character portrayal. Knowing how to create a good arc is important. If an author meanders too much, races to the finish too quickly, or fails to wrap up their 'surprise' in the resolution ... readers will know. It's vital to find out what works for you, and this is just one of the many methods that can help turn a story that needs work into a cohesive whole.

[Sasha Distan]

I, personally, have found that when I outline, I find myself in the same predicament as Thorn.  I've tried it on a number of occasions and it just...sucks, for me at least.  My best friend outlines EVERYTHING.  She wants to be sure she can follow her lines of thought as she writes.  But I find that I write the way I read: without necessarily knowing the ending.  Just as a reader might be surprised by a sudden character death, I go through the same sort of emotions when I write.  I've found that if I outline things and know precisely where things are going to go, I get disinterested and unmotivated.  It's like skipping to the ending of an amazing book only to realize that your favorite character dies somewhere between the ending pages.  After that you don't really want to read the book anymore right?

 

 

I completely agree here. i wrote the whole of Born Wolf without a single word of planning and i get told that it's the best thing i've ever written. it was hard, emotional, challenging. i forced myself to write other characters, side plots, deaths, births, the works. female characters (which is my least favourite thing to do for some reason) all the things i'm bad at to make myself a better writer. but my process is generally the same. open word, type furiously, post online, await shouting. that's it.

A friend of mine uses Scrivener to plan her works and i have seen so many "authors" get so tied up in planning for a novel, that they never actually get on and write anything. i know this doesn't apply to everyone, and i promise that i'm not inciting hatred of Scrivener users, but each writer's process is different, and I really agree with Thorn when he says if my process works for me, i won't fix it.

people i know would never sit down to write a novel without planning, but i swear for me it just happens, so there we go.

[Former Member]

Haha...my 'planning' tends to actually come to light when I write out of chrono.  Sometimes it can get a little messy trying to insert it back in, but it really helps me at least to visualize where I want things to go without really sitting down and detailing it out.  This way, I also get use the words I know I want to use right then and there and it's all a matter of tweaking.  Not to mention that if I particularly like the scene I'm writing, it makes me all the more eager to fill in the more boring parts to actually get to where I really want to me.

 

For me, my process is all about keeping up my motivation.  If I lose motivation, I'll quickly lose interest.  And typically, I'll never really touch it again.

[Dolores Esteban]

I don't plan much in advance either. I also like to go with the flow. I want to have fun when actually writing the story and often enough I'm surprised myself by the twists and turns and the ending of the story. I'm enjoying this process of writing a story. But when it comes to editing the story, I'm analytical and unemotional. I learned of the 8 point story arc two years ago and it helped me a lot when editing a 50K novel.

[Thorn Wilde]

I completely agree here. i wrote the whole of Born Wolf without a single word of planning and i get told that it's the best thing i've ever written. it was hard, emotional, challenging. i forced myself to write other characters, side plots, deaths, births, the works. female characters (which is my least favourite thing to do for some reason) all the things i'm bad at to make myself a better writer. but my process is generally the same. open word, type furiously, post online, await shouting. that's it.

A friend of mine uses Scrivener to plan her works and i have seen so many "authors" get so tied up in planning for a novel, that they never actually get on and write anything. i know this doesn't apply to everyone, and i promise that i'm not inciting hatred of Scrivener users, but each writer's process is different, and I really agree with Thorn when he says if my process works for me, i won't fix it.

people i know would never sit down to write a novel without planning, but i swear for me it just happens, so there we go.

 

I actually use Scrivener, but I don't generally plot much. I just like it because it's structured, so when I go back to edit (which I do a lot) I know where everything is and I can sort things out without ending up with inconsistencies. Sometimes I make a general sort of plan of what's going to happen in my novel, but as a general rule, I just sit down and write.

 

Connie Willis, a sci-fi author, can spend more than a year plotting her novels and never strays from the plot she's developed when she types out the novel. It works well for her and she writes awesome books, but I could never do that. To each their own.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Thorn Wilde

[joann414]

I think some of you are missing Cia's point.  No one is beyond needing help when writing unless you are a William Faulkner, Noah Webster(my grandson supplied that one)  or maybe Hemingway.  Humility as a writer makes us all better.  Some of you have posted great stories, and I am certainly not an editor, but I have found a few things that could be tweaked.  No offense guys.  Be open minded when you write.  It will certainly not hinder you talent

[Thorn Wilde]

And I don't think any of us were saying we're beyond needing help with our product. This is why we have editors and beta readers. What we're talking about is personal process. These are two completely different things.

[The Pecman]

I wasn't knocking it, like I said, if a person can find it helpful then all the more power to them. I was only saying that for me, personally, it has felt like it would be a waste of time. I find that rules stifle my creativity.

 

Don't think of them as rules; think of them as suggestions. Again, all the major best-selling books, as well as works by my favorite authors, generally do follow these guidelines. It's extremely rare I see them coloring outside the lines.

 

Read just the two books I suggested above and tell me what you think. Again, even if you go through the first dozen ideas and say, "naaaaa, that doesn't apply to me" or "I don't agree with that," that's cool... but there's always the chance you'll stumble over an idea where you stop and go, "hey! I never thought of that before." So don't dismiss it out of hand.

 

I've also read several books on screenwriting, and several biographies of major authors, and all of those helped in small ways as well. But I think I wrote about 1000 published (and paid for) articles before I cracked a single book on writing, save for what I had blitzed through in high school and college writing classes. 

 

Gotta tell you a funny story: in an English Lit class (class of all juniors where I was a freshman, much fun), I had to write a 2000-word paper on a book I hadn't actually read. I flipped through it the night before, wrote the paper, then turned it in, assuming I'd fool the prof. The next day, she handed back the papers where I was relieved to see I had gotten a C+ (not bad for knowing zip), but she commented, "it was clear to me you hadn't actually read the book, but you faked it so well, I had to give you a C+. You should consider becoming a writer." That really floored me, and was the first inkling I had that maybe it was a path I could take someday.

Edited June 7, 2013 by The Pecman

[The Pecman]

The original post isn't telling authors that they have to plot a story in set way, like you need to sit down and write all that out, it's simply telling you that these are major events that need to be hit in your plot. I've seen this 8 point plot arc before, I've seen 3 story act plot types as well. 

 

I usually go with a 3-act play kind of thing, but I also tend to end chapters episodically, kind of loosely inspired by TV (which is my background). I think there's an art to picking the right break, and also finding a way to keep pushing the story forward, which to me is kind of the essence of structure. 

 

I try not to over-outline, but I do at least jot down some bullet-points here and there so I know that by Chapter 5, so-and-so has got to die. It's always a discovery process, and once in awhile, I'll wake up in the middle of the night and say, "whoa! I gotta throw a completely unplanned idea into this other chapter!" So I've deviated from the bullet-points and the story arc on occasion. 

 

A couple of times, I've been guilty of letting the novel climax a little early, and I wind up having kind of an extended aftermath with an additional climax kind of jammed in to provide a big finale. I've done this twice, and it deviates from the normal act format, but it didn't bother me too much. My worst sin has been to kill certain characters off-screen, which is a mistake I try to avoid nowadays. I look back on some of that stuff and think, "jesus, that's such a cheap gimmick," but I got a lot of accolades from readers, so most of them didn't seem bothered by it (nor did my various editors and Beta-readers). 

[Kenny Deheart]

I don't know how I missed the fact that I actually got replies to my topic, lol

 

I just wanted to make sure everyone realizes that my intention was to share something that impressed me, and not to say that you should follow this system. Twenty days later and using this to actually plot out a few of my abortive stories shows that this system does works for me, as long as I keep in mind that its a changeable guideline and not a hard and fast plot.

 

I personally need things laid out at first so that I can see where the story is going, the lack of which is one of the main reasons I almost rarely finished any stories, and the two that I did finish feel basically random and plotless. So far this is working, and as a small proof, I actually managed to write a plot and the first chapter of a story that I feel is better than anything I have ever written before, and posted it here of course, pending review since I am a first time poster.