fanfiction What Universe Would You Like To Write In?

[CassieQ]

23 minutes ago, BigBen said:

True, and I eventually realized that gay men are not intended to be part of the readership of the M/M fics, so I got bummed off for that reason, as well.

Why on earth wouldn't they be?

[BigBen]

I admit to having sampled only a few fandoms on AO3, but the pieces I've read all give the strong impression that, whatever the concerns of the writers and readers of m/m fanfic may be, the realistic portrayal of gay life is not one of them.

The gay characters in the stories I've read on AO3 all seem to be depictions of what my heterosexual women friends say they wish the men in their lives were more like.  It's interesting, up to a point, but nothing I can truly identify with.  The smut by the male authors on Nifty, it must be admitted, is not a realistic reflection of gay life, either, but at least the characters do think and act a bit more like actual gay men.

I guess what I'm really looking for is literature dealing with recognizably human characters who happen to reflect my sexual orientation in the bargain.  (They should also be adults, not thirteen-year-olds, please.)  The closest I've come to what I'm looking for is a series of murder mysteries in which the detective is a gay policeman, and in which the balance between the character's sexual orientation and the other concerns of his life is really good.  If only I liked murder mysteries!  I wonder if it would be possible to persuade the author to shift her focus from mystery to romance . . . .

[CassieQ]

13 hours ago, BigBen said:

I admit to having sampled only a few fandoms on AO3, but the pieces I've read all give the strong impression that, whatever the concerns of the writers and readers of m/m fanfic may be, the realistic portrayal of gay life is not one of them.

The gay characters in the stories I've read on AO3 all seem to be depictions of what my heterosexual women friends say they wish the men in their lives were more like.

I feel like I'm not understanding something...how are they acting then?  Not all men, or women, act all the same.  Is there a blanket heterosexual male fantasy that I am missing out on?

[BigBen]

I could list the tropes common on AO3 that don't jibe with my experience, but would that really tell you anything?  Let's just say that stories about people obtusely pining for each other, wilfully ignoring all the signs of mutual attraction, just don't work for me.  Male sexuality is stimulated by visual cues, and men are ready to connect.  It's women who slow them down.  Two men eager to connect aren't going to beat around the bush long enough to fill a story with a decent amount of tooth-rotting fluff.

Men do have emotions, but they tend to become engaged much later in the story.  Probably three-quarters of the male couples I know connected sexually first, and forged friendships and loving relationships afterward.  It's not very romantic, but there we are.  I reckon I racked up nearly two hundred anonymous sexual contacts in a year-and-a-half of promiscuity before I settled down (friends of mine, who weren't nearly as shy, reached two or three times that number); yet one of those anonymous contacts ended up being my lover for ten years.

A romance fic that proceeded along such lines would be far more realistic, in my book.  It's the sort of story I'd enjoy reading, and the sort I'd write, if I could.  I just wouldn't post it on AO3, because it's not the sort of story AO3 exists to provide a home for.  I wonder how it would be received here on GA, for that matter.

Edited May 18, 2021 by BigBen

[Carlos Hazday]

1 hour ago, BigBen said:

I wonder how it would be received here on GA, for that matter.

The two main characters in my series met and had sex a couple of days later. They fucked like rabbits.

They ended up marrying, but after 8 books and 5 years. I even had one of them tell a show's host on national TV that love at first sight didn't exist, that it was lust at first sight and love grew slowly. I think that fits better with your appraisal. The series has been well received.

Men and women are NOT alike and too many MM romances end up emasculating at least one character.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Carlos Hazday

[BigBen]

3 hours ago, Carlos Hazday said:

The series has been well received.

Men and women are NOT alike and too many MM romances end up emasculating at least one

That the series has been well received is good to know.  I'll have to check it out, despite my current resistance to getting involved in long series.

As for the emasculating of characters, I'd be interested in your further thoughts about that.

[Carlos Hazday]

11 hours ago, BigBen said:

As for the emasculating of characters, I'd be interested in your further thoughts about that.

Maybe I didn't use the right word. Most MM romances read like a man/woman relationship with the woman being replaced by another male. Based on experience, personal and that of friends, men are more interested in spreading their goods around. Funny I say that considering I made the primary couples in my work monogamous. If we went by most MM stories on GA, men straying's always a bad thing, while most couples I know play around some. Gay men's sexuality is seldom accurately described.

[BigBen]

Given that the fanfic out of which m/m romance has evolved originated with heterosexual women, it is not surprising that monogamous heterosexual marriage is the unconscious model even of fiction written by gay men.  Heteronormativity is everywhere.

I suspect heteronormativity is why no one ever writes gay male couples that are content to keep their lovemaking strictly oral, and why the trope that only anal sex is "real sex" or is "lovemaking" is so very strong.  Obviously, it's the closest thing to vaginal penetration that gay men can do.  Though I often wonder how our lesbian sisters feel when they read that what they do in bed is not "real sex."

While I am basically a one-man man myself (serially, at least), I have known a number of gay male couples over the years who, while deeply committed to each other, nevertheless derived their primary sexual satisfaction outside the relationship.  By all appearances, they were quite content with their arrangements.  I wonder how a story about such a couple would go over on most m/m romance sites (exclusive of Nifty and Literotica, of course).

ETA:  it is probably worth mentioning that the pattern of a large majority of the gay male couples I know was that they met while cruising, had sex, perhaps met for sex a few more times, decided they liked each other enough to date, and eventually fell in love.  By contrast, the standard pattern in the fics on AO3 is that the guys pine interminably for each other, oblivious of the glaringly obvious signs (AO3 readers apparently find this both amusing and titillating), eventually come to their senses and start a permanent, monogamous relationship, suck each other off for a few months, then "make love" (anal sex) for the first time.  Fics that follow this standard pattern the most closely get the largest number of strongly approving comments.

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by BigBen

[Freerider]

3 minutes ago, BigBen said:

Given that the fanfic out of which m/m romance has evolved originated with heterosexual women, it is not surprising that heterosexual marriage is the unconscious model even of fiction written by gay men.  Heteronormativity is everywhere.

I suspect heteronormativity is why no one ever writes couples that are content to keep their lovemaking strictly oral, and why the trope that only anal sex is "real sex" or is "lovemaking" is so very strong.  Obviously, it's the closest thing to vaginal penetration that gay men can do.  Though I often wonder how our lesbian sisters feel when they read that what they do in bed is not "real sex."

While I am basically a one-man man myself (serially, at least), I have known a number of gay male couples over the years who, while deeply committed to each other, nevertheless derived their primary sexual satisfaction outside the relationship.  By all appearances, they were quite content with their arrangements.  I wonder how a story about such a couple would go over on most m/m romance sites (exclusive of Nifty and Literotica, of course).

When I read a story with this heteronormativity it is a sign for me to check the author. Almost without exception it is a (heterosexual) woman. Some are authors with masculine names. But it does not fool me, the proof is in the story line. Maybe some are truly men, but certainly not gay as they show no knowledge of gay life. Many do not seem to understand that when you write a heterosexual love story it takes much more than swapping mf to mm to make good gay fiction.

 

 

 

[BigBen]

7 minutes ago, Freerider said:

But it does not fool me, the proof is in the story line.

It's a dead giveaway when the sex is clearly written by someone who has no idea what a prostate gland is or does, lol!

Edited May 19, 2021 by BigBen

[Freerider]

2 minutes ago, BigBen said:

It's a dead giveaway when the sex is clearly written by someone who has no idea what a prostate gland is or does, lol!

Not only that, but the whole dynamics of the sex scenes is often wrong. As are the dynamics of relationships, as you pointed out earlier.

[headtransplant]

Very informative discussion. It’s good to read your views on how gay men’s relationships are often incorrectly portrayed in fiction. I think it needs to be discussed more often and more openly. I’m not afraid to admit I’ve got a lot to learn. I really appreciate your candor. 

[BigBen]

If I were in the same league as youse guys, I'd love to try writing the kind of stuff I'd like to read—that's how a number of writers I really like got started, after all!  Maybe someday soon . . . 😁

 

 

 

[headtransplant]

4 minutes ago, BigBen said:

If I were in the same league as youse guys, I'd love to try writing the kind of stuff I'd like to read—that's how a number of writers I really like got started, after all!  Maybe someday soon . . . 😁

 

 

 

Yes please!! If you have the inclination to write, I think your voice needs to be heard. 

[Mawgrim]

17 hours ago, BigBen said:

By contrast, the standard pattern in the fics on AO3 is that the guys pine interminably for each other, oblivious of the glaringly obvious signs (AO3 readers apparently find this both amusing and titillating), eventually come to their senses and start a permanent, monogamous relationship, suck each other off for a few months, then "make love" (anal sex) for the first time.  Fics that follow this standard pattern the most closely get the largest number of strongly approving comments.

 

Thus meaning that other writers who want to get lots of kudos and comments follow the same pattern! I post on AO3 as well as GA, and it's always interesting to see the difference in the comments I get on the 2 sites when I put up a new chapter. I've also found that although you can post original fiction on AO3, it tends to get ignored. Most of the audience are there only for fanfic.

Give the writing a go and don't be too terrified. People here are generally kind with their comments. It's always good to see new authors posting stories and different styles of writing.

[cehammock]

Several comments on this thread of alluded to the possibility (probably true) that women white M/M romance for other women that reflect a female point of view, and that gay men are often turned off by these perspectives, because they do not reflect their own romantic/sexual experiences.  This got me thinking.  What are some of the tropes of M/M romance that reflect women's interests?  And what would be some M/M romance tropes that would reflect a male perspective, particularly the point of view of gay men?  Anyone have any ideas or comments? I am working on my own M/M fiction, and I would like to be more self-aware about the tropes that I'm using. Thanks. 

[cehammock]

On 5/19/2021 at 11:26 AM, BigBen said:

Given that the fanfic out of which m/m romance has evolved originated with heterosexual women, it is not surprising that monogamous heterosexual marriage is the unconscious model even of fiction written by gay men.  Heteronormativity is everywhere.

 

On 5/19/2021 at 11:48 AM, Freerider said:

When I read a story with this heteronormativity it is a sign for me to check the author. Almost without exception it is a (heterosexual) woman. Some are authors with masculine names. But it does not fool me, the proof is in the story line. Maybe some are truly men, but certainly not gay as they show no knowledge of gay life. Many do not seem to understand that when you write a heterosexual love story it takes much more than swapping mf to mm to make good gay fiction.

 

Several comments on this thread of alluded to the possibility (probably true) that women white M/M romance for other women that reflect a female point of view, and that gay men are often turned off by these perspectives, because they do not reflect their own romantic/sexual experiences.  This got me thinking.  What are some of the tropes of M/M romance that reflect women's interests?  And what would be some M/M romance tropes that would reflect a male perspective, particularly the point of view of gay men?  Anyone have any ideas or comments? I am working on my own M/M fiction, and I would like to be more self-aware about the tropes that I'm using. Thanks. 

[W_L]

On 4/1/2021 at 10:59 PM, superstoryfanficgayboy said:

I ove to write in the unverse of digimon

That's cool, which series? I thought Adventure series 1 and 2 were fun. Gatomon is my favorite Digimon for her spunky personality and quick wit in the English dub. Tamers had its moments, but I never got back into it into later series.

On 4/2/2021 at 1:10 PM, astone2292 said:

Growing up, there has been one universe that has stood out among the rest. I would absolutely love to tackle a journey in the Pokemon world! My fingers are begging for the challenge. Imagine writing a description for a Grimer, or suspense of an Electrode rolling towards you with its cheeky grin! I think I'll add this to my growing "to-do list."

 

On the other side of the Digimon v. Pokemon debate I have played a bunch of Pokemon games for years and watched the Anime on and off (less Black and White).

Which Region would you consider writing in? I'd join your writer support team in a second or if you need motivation, I'll be your writing rival for fun, I haven't done fanfic in Pokemon for quite a while.

I love Sinnoh, Ash vs. Paul in Diamond and Pearl sold me on Sinnoh story arc, it was probably the best take on how extreme Pokemon training can be, re-watching that series nowadays, I still feel like Paul might have been abusing Chimchar with how it reacted to Ash in their first friendly battle (it looked like he was holding his little monkey hands up expecting ash to strike him. I went for Chimchar as my Sinnoh starter, he needs to be loved).

Kalos was fun too, because of the Mega Evolutions. For people who play Pokemon games. I also enjoyed the nice dual starter set up that they give you: one Kanto starter to one Kalos starter. I chose Charmander and Chespin, my C&C combo

Edited May 25, 2021 by W_L

[Krista]

To answer your question - None of them are. It is just perceived bias that women don't know what true blooded gay men want - apparently a good fuck and barely a thankyou, (Which women are into that as well) but I am here to set the record 'straight' if you prefer. As a woman who has spent, I don't know, half of my life writing Gay fiction - albeit mostly in the High School/Young Adult world of things, which is completely different than other genres. I couldn't help feeling completely put aside by some - if not most - of the comments within the latter half of this discussion. Also, I write for no one, my target audience is the audience for which I post my writing to, it is neither male nor female. It is GayAuthors. 

Now, I have no penis, I own a penis through marriage. So I feel that I know my way around one decently enough to get the juices flowing. Again, I am allowed to go there, right? After reading this, I'm not sure I should have made the attempt, by the high standards you 'gay men' seem to desire, I have no balls to throw at you. I never did.

What should be well within this discussion is human characteristics in fiction and what doesn't do it for you and what does. I mean, until it was completely derailed. Because human nature is similar in both genders. No need to downgrade the talent of female writers within this genre to make your point. Ao3 doesn't have the quality over content platform that GayAuthors naturally has, because it is larger. That is a proven fact. There are plenty of first timers or novice writers here, but there are triple that number on the other platform. It is more about the experience of the writer, not what is or isn't dangling between their legs or which hole gets plowed whilst bent over a barstool in some seedy assed bar. 

Yes, I am angry, I never thought I would have to deal with the lack of respect for my creation based on my gender. Not here. So you people with dangly bits that feel like women can't write quality gay fiction (and you know as well as I do, the balls look like half-plucked chicken butts) need to re-examine your points. Women are more than capable of writing within this genre. It takes a good story, a good editor/beta team, and a good skill set. No dick required.  

Edited May 25, 2021 by Krista

[headtransplant]

6 minutes ago, Krista said:

To answer your question - None of them are. It is just perceived bias that women don't know what true blooded gay men want - apparently a good fuck and barely a thankyou, (Which women are into that as well) but I am here to set the record 'straight' if you prefer. As a woman who has spent, I don't know, half of my life writing Gay fiction - albeit mostly in the High School/Young Adult world of things, which is completely different than other genres. I couldn't help feeling completely put aside by some - if not most - of the comments within the latter half of this discussion. Also, I write for no one, my target audience is the audience for which I post my writing to, it is neither male nor female. It is GayAuthors. 

Now, I have no penis, I own a penis through marriage. So I feel that I know my way around one decently enough to get the juices flowing. Again, I am allowed to go there, right? After reading this, I'm not sure I should have made the attempt, by the high standards you 'gay men' seem to desire, I have no balls to throw at you. I never did.

What should be well within this discussion is human characteristics in fiction and what doesn't do it for you and what does. I mean, until it was completely derailed. Because human nature is similar in both genders. No need to downgrade the talent of female writers within this genre to make your point. Ao3 doesn't have the quality over content platform that GayAuthors naturally has, because it is larger. That is a proven fact. There are plenty of first timers here, but there are triple that number on the other platform. It is more about the experience of the writer, not what is or isn't dangling between their legs or which hole gets plowed whilst bent over a barstool in some seedy assed bar. 

Yes, I am angry, I never thought I would have to deal with the lack of respect for my creation based on my gender. Not here. So you people with dangly bits that feel like women can't write quality gay fiction (and you know as well as I do, the balls look like half-plucked chicken butts) need to re-examine your points. Women are more than capable of writing within this genre. It takes a good story, a good editor/beta team, and a good skill set. No dick required.  

I agree with your points - gender is absolutely not a qualifier for who can write good gay fiction. 

At the same time, if multiple people feel like the lives of gay men aren’t being accurately reflected in the fiction they read, this  deserves to be explored. I hope people can present our thoughts without the gender of the author being a factor.

A new thread might be better since we’re going off topic from Fanfics. Anyone want to start it? 😬

[BigBen]

3 hours ago, Krista said:

Yes, I am angry, I never thought I would have to deal with the lack of respect for my creation based on my gender. Not here. So you people with dangly bits that feel like women can't write quality gay fiction (and you know as well as I do, the balls look like half-plucked chicken butts) need to re-examine your points. Women are more than capable of writing within this genre. It takes a good story, a good editor/beta team, and a good skill set. No dick required.  

My favorite authors are almost all women, and they write realistic men of all sexual orientations.  Several of them got started by writing fanfic, in fact, so your point is well-taken.

I'm very sorry to have made you angry.  I haven't yet encountered any of your stories, and therefore have no idea what your writing is like.  I will make a point of looking up your work.

My point was not that women can't write realistic gay male characters, but that the fanfic I've read on AO3 truly does not appear to have that as its goal, and it's that apparent lack of intent to write realistic gay male characters that makes me feel excluded from the readership of those fics.  The comments on the stories reinforce my impression, because the most approving comments are for those characters and actions I find to be the least representative of any gay men of my acquaintance.

The question of whether anyone but a member of group X can write effectively on the X experience is a long-debated one, and I would venture to say that a good enough writer probably can put him- or herself in the place of anyone, but it takes imagination, empathy, research, and effort.  I've read essays by gay male writers claiming that only a gay man can accurately convey the gay male experience, but I've read convincing gay male characters written by writers who were not themselves gay men, so I know it can be done.

[Krista]

5 minutes ago, BigBen said:

My favorite authors are almost all women, and they write realistic men of all sexual orientations.  Several of them got started by writing fanfic, in fact, so your point is well-taken.

I'm very sorry to have made you angry.  I haven't yet encountered any of your stories, and therefore have no idea what your writing is like.  I will make a point of looking up your work.

My point was not that women can't write realistic gay male characters, but that the fanfic I've read on AO3 truly does not appear to have that as its goal, and it's that apparent lack of intent to write realistic gay male characters that makes me feel excluded from the readership of those fics.  The comments on the stories reinforce my impression, because the most approving comments are for those characters and actions I find to be the least representative of any gay men of my acquaintance.

The question of whether anyone but a member of group X can write effectively on the X experience is a long-debated one, and I would venture to say that a good enough writer probably can put him- or herself in the place of anyone, but it takes imagination, empathy, research, and effort.  I've read essays by gay male writers claiming that only a gay man can accurately convey the gay male experience, but I've read convincing gay male characters written by writers who were not themselves gay men, so I know it can be done.

I have an inkling that my writing is not your cup of tea. They are mostly coming of age, questioning sexuality, high school stories. The earlier works are very rough, mostly unedited, and written by me in high school. That's fine, I try not to cater to anyone when I write the stories that I write. So, if you insist, "Forces of Nature," or "Standing in Shadows," are two of the later works that have better editing for the most part. 

If you're new to Fanfiction in general, most people use Fanfiction to get into writing. Most of them are new, the veterans of fanfiction typically have better stories. I am rather harsh on fanfiction stories and just don't finish most of what I start. It is just easier to write characters that are already fleshed out in newer ways, etc. There are challenges in fanfiction, but yes, for the most part they generally are written by character first, plot and tone falling well behind. 

[astone2292]

6 hours ago, W_L said:

That's cool, which series? I thought Adventure series 1 and 2 were fun. Gatomon is my favorite Digimon for her spunky personality and quick wit in the English dub. Tamers had its moments, but I never got back into it into later series.

On the other side of the Digimon v. Pokemon debate I have played a bunch of Pokemon games for years and watched the Anime on and off (less Black and White).

Which Region would you consider writing in? I'd join your writer support team in a second or if you need motivation, I'll be your writing rival for fun, I haven't done fanfic in Pokemon for quite a while.

I love Sinnoh, Ash vs. Paul in Diamond and Pearl sold me on Sinnoh story arc, it was probably the best take on how extreme Pokemon training can be, re-watching that series nowadays, I still feel like Paul might have been abusing Chimchar with how it reacted to Ash in their first friendly battle (it looked like he was holding his little monkey hands up expecting ash to strike him. I went for Chimchar as my Sinnoh starter, he needs to be loved).

Kalos was fun too, because of the Mega Evolutions. For people who play Pokemon games. I also enjoyed the nice dual starter set up that they give you: one Kanto starter to one Kalos starter. I chose Charmander and Chespin, my C&C combo

I'm slightly ashamed to say I stopped when Sinnoh debuted. My brain was fried, and learning another 100+ monsters was too much for me. I recently decided to get caught up by watching Poketubers and their adventures. Currently at work, but I'll PM you about my thoughts for an adventure in detail, but I'm interested in a Kanto adventure (the region I'm most familiar with) focusing on a singular trainer. I always look at Ash's journey and wonder what single-episodic characters do on their journey on their own. I'm sure they have their own rivals, but their stories are never told.

[Freerider]

10 hours ago, Krista said:

To answer your question - None of them are. It is just perceived bias that women don't know what true blooded gay men want - apparently a good fuck and barely a thankyou, (Which women are into that as well) but I am here to set the record 'straight' if you prefer. As a woman who has spent, I don't know, half of my life writing Gay fiction - albeit mostly in the High School/Young Adult world of things, which is completely different than other genres. I couldn't help feeling completely put aside by some - if not most - of the comments within the latter half of this discussion. Also, I write for no one, my target audience is the audience for which I post my writing to, it is neither male nor female. It is GayAuthors. 

Now, I have no penis, I own a penis through marriage. So I feel that I know my way around one decently enough to get the juices flowing. Again, I am allowed to go there, right? After reading this, I'm not sure I should have made the attempt, by the high standards you 'gay men' seem to desire, I have no balls to throw at you. I never did.

What should be well within this discussion is human characteristics in fiction and what doesn't do it for you and what does. I mean, until it was completely derailed. Because human nature is similar in both genders. No need to downgrade the talent of female writers within this genre to make your point. Ao3 doesn't have the quality over content platform that GayAuthors naturally has, because it is larger. That is a proven fact. There are plenty of first timers or novice writers here, but there are triple that number on the other platform. It is more about the experience of the writer, not what is or isn't dangling between their legs or which hole gets plowed whilst bent over a barstool in some seedy assed bar. 

Yes, I am angry, I never thought I would have to deal with the lack of respect for my creation based on my gender. Not here. So you people with dangly bits that feel like women can't write quality gay fiction (and you know as well as I do, the balls look like half-plucked chicken butts) need to re-examine your points. Women are more than capable of writing within this genre. It takes a good story, a good editor/beta team, and a good skill set. No dick required.  

Oh boohoo. You deliberately misinterpret the discussion so you can make this about you and feel offended. How very modern of you. 

But at least you more or less get the fact that it is not about sex or the dangly bits. Nor is it about anybody's writing talent. It is not even about gender as such. But you miss that point. It is about heteronormativity in stories and in my case my observation that almost without exception this is done by female authors. This does not mean that ALL female authors do this. This is basic logic, but apparently it is necessary to write it out. As you say it is more about the experience of the writer. And it (often) shows that hetero women have no in depth experience at being a gay male, no surprise there.

But this is all very OT, we can discuss in a different topic if you need to. I don't need to.

 

[Krista]

6 hours ago, Freerider said:

Oh boohoo. You deliberately misinterpret the discussion so you can make this about you and feel offended. How very modern of you. 

But at least you more or less get the fact that it is not about sex or the dangly bits. Nor is it about anybody's writing talent. It is not even about gender as such. But you miss that point. It is about heteronormativity in stories and in my case my observation that almost without exception this is done by female authors. This does not mean that ALL female authors do this. This is basic logic, but apparently it is necessary to write it out. As you say it is more about the experience of the writer. And it (often) shows that hetero women have no in depth experience at being a gay male, no surprise there.

But this is all very OT, we can discuss in a different topic if you need to. I don't need to.

 

I misinterpreted nothing, my dear. There was a very distinctive tone and idea that gender played a specific role in what you and others considered good gay fiction. I am also not the 'only' person to see that. I was just the only one that said anything about it. So please, learn from this instead of doubling down, it does you no credit to continue on with this behavior and series of opinions.

 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Krista