Lynn Flewelling, The Nightrunner Series and Gay Sex

[Dabeagle]

I've long been a fan of Lynn Flewelling and her Nightrunner series. She recently shared an older post of hers that concerns, in part, how gay sex scenes differ from hetero scenes and how it may feel as a writer to write such scenes. It's a very interesting short read.

https://varkat.livejournal.com/177248.html

[Zombie]

“Men are not women” - sounds kinda quaint in 2021 going on 2022

Interesting that the link is by and references entirely women writers of m/m including Josh Lanyon. Do readers actually notice / avoid / prefer women writers of explicit m/m sex scenes? Also, how important / significant is women readership for m/m explicit sex?

 

[Dabeagle]

1 hour ago, Zombie said:

“Men are not women” - sounds kinda quaint in 2021 going on 2022

Interesting that the link is by and references entirely women writers of m/m including Josh Lanyon. Do readers actually notice / avoid / prefer women writers of explicit m/m sex scenes? Also, how important / significant is women readership for m/m explicit sex?

 

Well, I think you should note the actual article is from 2010-2011.

Second Lynn Flewelling is a woman writing about this topic from a woman's perspective and understanding across the sexes isn't a bad thing.

I don't care who writes it if it's written well, but I thought what she had to say was interesting and I loved her books.

[Krista]

39 minutes ago, Zombie said:

“Men are not women” - sounds kinda quaint in 2021 going on 2022

Interesting that the link is by and references entirely women writers of m/m including Josh Lanyon. Do readers actually notice / avoid / prefer women writers of explicit m/m sex scenes? Also, how important / significant is women readership for m/m explicit sex?

 

Some readers do notice the differences with a man writing m/m fiction vs. a woman. I'm also sure there are narrow minded people that can't pick up a M/M romance with a woman's name on the cover. Probably of the same mold that wouldn't choose a female doctor and so on. I don't think it is that big of an issue as a whole within the genre. There are probably more Women who write M/M romances than men - or at least a more readily available one/rabid following. On the other hand, some men may prefer women who write M/M.

I personally don't see much of a difference, but I write more than I read within this genre. I am extremely picky, I write the stories I want to read and if what I am reading differs too much from that, then I don't finish - typically. I'm like that with Heterosexual romances too, probably only slightly more forgiving. If it is a strict romance, I mean. I can read M/M stories where romance isn't the basepoint with a lot more ease - that is why I used to lean heavily towards Paranormal/Fantasy stories when I started reading and fanfictions - because those were different than what I can critique as I read. 

I do get what she is saying; that men want a male voice when they read. When you lose the male voice, you lose the whole purpose of M/M Romance and that includes the sex scenes. There are discussions about this type of thing already on GA, so I don't want to repeat myself too much.

You can put down the writing, the story, etc I only ever get annoyed when people outright blame a person's gender for the reason why they can't read something. As she said, it takes some research for women to write the sex scenes, but not so much the romance because we really aren't that different. That tends to hold true, because one of the most asked questions of me is, "How do you write such believable male characters..." and I always just respond with something like, "I'm not really writing a male character, I'm just writing about people..." Men are different in a lot of ways, so as long as some of those things aren't thrown out the window, you can write M/M as a woman. 

Now, for me I don't feel like her when I go about writing a sex scene/explicite or not. So maybe I'm doing it wrong.  I don't feel like I have expressed any of my own fantasies/do's and/or don'ts when it comes to sex. I don't feel like anyone would be like, "Oh wow, that's you Krista..." when they're reading about two dudes playing hide the worm.  

I do have a funny story of when my husband caught me in the middle of writing a M/M sex scene. It ended with him saying that I was filthy - as a complete compliment, mind you -  and I had to remind him that I was still a lady. 

[BigBen]

A good writer is a good writer.  But a lot of the writers on Internet fiction sites are still learning to write, and there are pitfalls inexperienced writers fall into.  Some of them appear to be rooted in the differing sexual psychologies of the two sexes, though many more are not.  None of these pitfalls is insuperable to a writer with imagination and a strong desire to communicate with as many readers as possible.

I do think, however, that there are two issues relevant here.  The first is that the two sexes experience sexual contact from very different perspectives, and it takes some skill as a writer to be able to work out how the dynamics change when it's two men or two women getting together.  For one thing, the power differential is very different in a same-sex relationship.  Is it important to reflect that in m/m or f/f romance?

The second issue is that the goals of heterosexual sex are very different from the goals of sex for same-sex couples.  One important implication is that, in real life, gay men and gay women, not having penis-in-vagina sex as an option, give a lot more value to sexual practices that the heterosexual world dismisses as "not real sex."  Yet m/m romance seems to endorse the heteronormative view and require the characters to have penis-in-anus sex—because it is the closest that two men can come to penis-in-vagina sex—which is, in turn, the sine qua non of m/f romance.  (Which gives one to wonder how writers of f/f romance cope, given that penis-in-anus and penis-in-vagina are both off the table in their case.)  And so the question inevitably becomes, how would readers react, if someone were to post a story in which the culmination of the two guys' love was their fabulous oral sex, and they had no interest whatsoever in trying anal?

[Zombie]

6 hours ago, BigBen said:

Which gives one to wonder how writers of f/f romance cope, given that penis-in-anus and penis-in-vagina are both off the table in their case.

well it’s Christmas

and Christmas means toys

 

[Dabeagle]

On 12/23/2021 at 9:43 PM, BigBen said:

A good writer is a good writer.  But a lot of the writers on Internet fiction sites are still learning to write, and there are pitfalls inexperienced writers fall into.  Some of them appear to be rooted in the differing sexual psychologies of the two sexes, though many more are not.  None of these pitfalls is insuperable to a writer with imagination and a strong desire to communicate with as many readers as possible.

I do think, however, that there are two issues relevant here.  The first is that the two sexes experience sexual contact from very different perspectives, and it takes some skill as a writer to be able to work out how the dynamics change when it's two men or two women getting together.  For one thing, the power differential is very different in a same-sex relationship.  Is it important to reflect that in m/m or f/f romance?

The second issue is that the goals of heterosexual sex are very different from the goals of sex for same-sex couples.  One important implication is that, in real life, gay men and gay women, not having penis-in-vagina sex as an option, give a lot more value to sexual practices that the heterosexual world dismisses as "not real sex."  Yet m/m romance seems to endorse the heteronormative view and require the characters to have penis-in-anus sex—because it is the closest that two men can come to penis-in-vagina sex—which is, in turn, the sine qua non of m/f romance.  (Which gives one to wonder how writers of f/f romance cope, given that penis-in-anus and penis-in-vagina are both off the table in their case.)  And so the question inevitably becomes, how would readers react, if someone were to post a story in which the culmination of the two guys' love was their fabulous oral sex, and they had no interest whatsoever in trying anal?

You make some interesting observations about the equivalency of penetrative sex across hetero/gay sexual relations. Heteros aren't completely unaware of the pleasures that they can have via anal sex either, though, so while that may be a facet of the behavior, I'm not sure it can be styled simply as a replacement or equivalent. Heteros can gave anal sex, of course, and many choose to. Males can be pegged or there is digital stimulation while oral sex occurs, but I take your point in terms of what some may consider to be sex - as in not sex if it's not penetrative. Perhaps one of the more well-known instances of that being the 'I did not have sexual relations with that woman' statement. I recall someone on TV at the time talking about how a man like him may not consider non-penetrative sex to be actual sex. It seemed flimsy to me then and still does, yet it goes to your point.

I think perhaps I think as you do in some ways. I do consider oral to be sex, however I also see some sexual behavior as a progression - akin to first base, second, so on with penetrative sex as the final step. Of course you're right that people can stop anywhere along that path and be fulfilled, which doesn't address the folks who have no desire to run those bases at all.

It's an interesting idea to explore.

[Jason Rimbaud]

I think either men or women can write believable sex scenes. There are a few differences, on average, women tend to focus on emotional connection, while men focus more on the physical acts. I enjoy either if it is written well. 

The differences I can usually spot right away, even when a woman writes under a male name. Male and Female brains just work differently and it shows in the writing. And neither is better than the other, just different. It all comes down to whether or not the story is compelling with fun entertaining characters. 

[ReaderPaul]

2 hours ago, Jason Rimbaud said:

I think either men or women can write believable sex scenes.  There are a few differences, on average, women tend to focus on emotional connection, while men focus more on the physical acts.  I enjoy either if it is written well. 

The differences I can usually spot right away, even when a woman writes under a male name.  Male and Female brains just work differently and it shows in the writing.  And neither is better than the other, just different.  It all comes down to whether or not the story is compelling with fun entertaining characters. 

I have read good M/M fiction by both males and females, although on average males seem slightly better at relaying the physical aspects of penetrative sex.  Both males and females can write well the emotional aspects of sexual activity -- if they take the time to do so.  Two story sites I could name seem to concentrate more on the lustful aspects and not so much the emotional aspects.

Interesting topic and discussion.

[Krista]

I will never say that I am good at writing physical scenes. I don't go into them thinking that I am good at it. That is why I insert dialog, sometimes even plot and character important dialog in the middle of everything. They say don't break up a lot of the action with meaningful distractions such as that. The whole... someone noticing a rose while on the battlefield scenario. The character needs to focus on not being bludgeoned to death and not the rose. But, the longer I stay in the consecutive sentences of the physical act the more awkward I know it feels/gets. That's why the dialog is important to me. It also gives me a reason to read it back, otherwise when I know it is coming I skip over it and the next thing I know @wildone has to tell me that I'm smooshed body parts that doesn't like being smooshed... well I guess if the character isn't into that sort of thing.  Which begs the answer: Why do I do it then? 

I don't know, I can't find myself doing "off screen," or "fade to darkness," scenes in the writing. I feel, especially in mature romances that if you've been working up to the physical act then it needs to be written. Slow burn romances take that one step further, which I typically write. I spend thousands of words enticing, teasing, making the connective steps and to off screen it or fade it to nothing after a few kisses and gropes, I've always felt like if I did that it would steal something from the writing and the experience readers may be seeking within the story.

But yes, I will always champion Female authors in M/M fiction. I can see where there is a bloated market and that markets can be dictated by majority rules. I will not sit idle when people preach the removal of us, because it doesn't solve anything. We all must learn that championing and fighting for what we want does more good than telling people they cannot exist in the genre just because. 

As for male characterizations in my writing, I do fall into comfort zones. I like light hearted and joke-heavy best friends, for example. A character 'there' to be the counter to anything heavy themed. I like Warm/Cold relationships, where one person is a bit more reserved and calculated and the other flies by the seat of their pants. 

I do think some of my romantic tendencies do lean female, but I go into it hoping that I can still do the male characters justice within the story itself. I try to write grounded 'human' types.

--- I'll stop rambling now.  There is a noted difference in the way I answered here and how I answered all those years ago as well. Regression or growth, who is to say of that opinion? 

 

Edited March 29 by Krista

[ReaderPaul]

@Krista, that was a well thought out response.

[William King]

To make a concise reply, men have sex and then maybe a relationship, one night stands are common. M/m romance seems like a hetero invention attractive to women, It exists, but I doubt it's mainstream except for women authors. 

There are a lot of gay m/m romance stories, they are not all written by women, but they all seem a little like fantasy. It seems more realistic to see gay men as hunters, seeking sex. We fall in love, have romantic relationships, but primarily men are driven by their penis. The biological genetic drive to reproduce, which minus any female, is rather bestial, savage, and wild. 

How many women authors write about threesomes, orgies, fetishes of all sorts. Hardly m/m romance, but occupying a large place in the gay world, like sex, and hence sites like Nifty that are probably more representative of the gay male psych, than say a teenage romance site. The middle ground between fantasy romance and brutal reality is perhaps here on this site which hosts all gay themed stories, with some restrictions, but offers a platform for women writers of gay stories as well as men, so you can take you pick, romance or reality, or both!