Fictitious Place Names

[AC Benus]

Seeking some general opinions. I'm preparing my Becoming Real for the press and wondering about place names.

I first wrote these short stories concerning my coming out process soon after going through it. The clubs and bars mentioned in it, so much a part of the Gay Community in Saint Louis then, are now sadly closed. Consequently, I'm looking at the fake names I made up for two of these establishments way back when and wondering why I'd keep the fake names at this point in time. Surely Angles and Magnolia's deserve to be properly acknowledged, right. . . ? They played an important part in my personal journey. 

Other names I fictionalized are up for discussion too. Any reason I should not state the university I actually attended?

A second school is mentioned because of a high-ranking professor I met from there. Should I name names of this university as well . . . ? If it matters, the professor is and was out even then.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by AC Benus

[Ron]

I would use real place names as it has the benefit of keeping places alive, if only in the written word. 

[JamesSavik]

As I write sci-fi, I have can fun with this. Humans being human are going to recycle names from the home world.

That neatly explains where the planet names New Tuscany and New Britain came from.

Of course there are others like Evergreen, a jungle world, Pacifica, an ocean world and, Stonegarden, a mineralogists' playground.

Don't think too hard about place names. They don't have to be brilliant. They don't have to tell you much other than it is a specific place. You can do more with place names, but that's up to you and how you want to proceed. The rest you can flesh out with description and even dialogue, like:

 

"What's the name of this place, Gunny?"

"This little garden spot moon's name is KV-426c."

"It certainly doesn't look like much from orbit. The whole place is covered in dry ice. It's a snowball. What's the mission?"

"There's a science station down there we've lost contact with. We're supposed to drop, see if anyone is home and access the situation."

"Another glorious day in the Corp."

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by JamesSavik

[W_L]

The name should have meaning to the author, but don't bend over backwards to come up with them, like @JamesSaviksaid don't think too hard.

If you feel the place has emotional resonance to the story, add it. If it's merely to chart a fictionalize version of your own journey, consider what makes the most sense to the story first.

[AC Benus]

@JamesSavik and @W_L 

You guys have gone way off topic. Coming up with names is not the issue: to use real place names pros and cons is.

As my original posting says, I'm wondering if it's time I dump my made-up names for two Gay bars and two universities in my Becoming Real, written many years ago. 

Both bars are closed now

[JamesSavik]

@AC Benus I actually avoid using real names of people and places in fiction, except for historic figures and events. For instance, in my story The Company, Ronald Reagan, Chernobyl and a few cities/towns are mentioned, but only to nail down the time frame (mid-eighties), current events and geographic setting.

Names of people, places and things are one of the more fun things you get to do in writing. There was a politician in the eighties I absolutely detested. He's going to reappear with the same hypocrisy, same two faced lying, and same hick sounding accent under a new name. You'll probably recognize him if you followed politics in the eighties. This way, I get to spit in his eye without getting sued.

[AC Benus]

24 minutes ago, JamesSavik said:

@AC Benus I actually avoid using real names of people and places in fiction, except for historic figures and events. For instance, in my story The Company, Ronald Reagan, Chernobyl and a few cities/towns are mentioned, but only to nail down the time frame (mid-eighties), current events and geographic setting.

Names of people, places and things are one of the more fun things you get to do in writing. There was a politician in the eighties I absolutely detested. He's going to reappear with the same hypocrisy, same two faced lying, and same hick sounding accent under a new name. You'll probably recognize him if you followed politics in the eighties. This way, I get to spit in his eye without getting sued.

Well, as the places are closed, that makes them ‘historical’ in your definition.

And I’m not talking abt people. They’ll stay all fictitious, obviously, as they are not celebs or public figures like Reagan

[W_L]

36 minutes ago, AC Benus said:

@JamesSavik and @W_L 

You guys have gone way off topic. Coming up with names is not the issue: to use real place names pros and cons is.

As my original posting says, I'm wondering if it's time I dump my made-up names for two Gay bars and two universities in my Becoming Real, written many years ago. 

Both bars are closed now

My question is, do the names have emotional resonance for your story in some way?

Every place eventually closes, and everyone eventually dies, but not every place or person lives in the same moment as others.

That's what I am trying to explain: the most important thing with a name is if they are important to the story, i.e. foreshadowing, historical lesson, or something.

 

[Carlos Hazday]

AC, I use real locations in my stories all the time. And I blend in real people too. Those are important since they're often politicians my MC interacts with, and I like to connect current events to the individuals involved. I always try to follow the parameters used by the courts for slander: those real people always say and do things in my stories consistent with what they say and do in real life.

My MC trashed Marco Rubio when he ran for President because of his stance against same sex marriage. Currently, Clarence Thomas has already been criticized in one story, and it'll happen again in a forthcoming one.

I take a similar approach with locations. I won't give a real restaurant a crappy review unless there's evidence it deserves it. In case that's my goal, I'll make a place up. Since I write in the present, I have to be a bit more careful. You write in the past, and I don't think anyone's gonna come after you because you describe shenanigans in a bar that closed years ago.

PS and Off Topic

Chatting with Def last night, I suggested she stop by GA if nothing else to read your antho submission. That woman you. LOL

Edited September 15, 2022 by Carlos Hazday

[Dodger]

I think it depends on the story and what happens in the bars you mention. If they're sadly now closed, then I would probably use the real names. As you mentioned, they deserve to be recognized.

Definitely use the real name of the university, although I'm not so sure about using real names of professors.

That's just my opinion, for what it's worth. Good luck.  

[AC Benus]

50 minutes ago, Dodger said:

I think it depends on the story and what happens in the bars you mention. If they're sadly now closed, then I would probably use the real names. As you mentioned, they deserve to be recognized.

Definitely use the real name of the university, although I'm not so sure about using real names of professors.

That's just my opinion, for what it's worth. Good luck.  

Thanks, Dodger. As I mentioned earlier, people's names were never a part of this; only places. "What happens" I take to mean "if anything bad happened," which it didn't. There were great places where people congregated and line-stepped! (I can still see them at Angles doin this...). Only good vibes, nothing any character says or does criticizes them.

As for the schools, I still have to think about them. Why is it you say the school question is a defo use real names?

Thanks

Edited September 16, 2022 by AC Benus

[ReaderPaul]

As far as real place names go, I would still be cautious.  Sometimes people sue at the drop of a proverbial hat these days, and someone might take offense at the strangest thing(s).  If a well-known place such as (example) University of Missouri St. Louis, I would consider using the real name of the University, but make up fictitious professors and students.  

People tend to be overly sensitive in the USA these days and there always seems to be a greedy lawyer who is willing t take almost any case. In the cases of bars and clubs, I would consider carefully before using real names.  Just my cautious opinion.

[AC Benus]

10 minutes ago, ReaderPaul said:

As far as real place names go, I would still be cautious.  Sometimes people sue at the drop of a proverbial hat these days, and someone might take offense at the strangest thing(s).  If a well-known place such as (example) University of Missouri St. Louis, I would consider using the real name of the University, but make up fictitious professors and students.  

People tend to be overly sensitive in the USA these days and there always seems to be a greedy lawyer who is willing t take almost any case. In the cases of bars and clubs, I would consider carefully before using real names.  Just my cautious opinion.

Thank you, Reader Paul. That is certainly an interesting example of a Uni you mentioned *clears throat* (lol). But concerning the bar names, you suggest staying fictitious is better in case the former club owners stir legal trouble. Is this correct?

It's something to think about. I've been leaning towards keeping the schools masked by fake names but indulging in nostalgia when it comes to the pair of clubs (one closed since about 2000; the other since about 2010).  

[Dodger]

4 hours ago, AC Benus said:

What happens" I take to mean "if anything bad happened," which it didn't. There were great places where people congregated and line-stepped! (I can still see them at Angles doin this...). Only good vibes, nothing any character says or does criticizes them.

I thought this was likely to be the case and I don't see why anyone would object. I enjoy reading stories that mention places that I know, no matter how vague. I'm even prepared to forgive some inaccuracies in the description, as long as it's not completely different. I would name universities because most are well-known landmarks like a Town Hall or government building, but again this is just personal preference.

It sounds like Angles was a fun place to go, pity it had to close.

[AC Benus]

8 hours ago, Dodger said:

It sounds like Angles was a fun place to go, pity it had to close.

Saint Louisans are notoriously fickle about nightspots. Usually they open, become the "it" place and close, all within 12 months. 64 West was an exception; and Magnolia's was LGBT+ community-central for decades! From the 1970s to the 2010s. Lord know how many happy Gay couples first met on its dance floor  

[BigBen]

This is a tricky question.  I've read some stories on Nifty that are set in Sinclair Lewis's fictional State of Winnemac, which Lewis created after getting flak from some real towns he mentioned in an early novel.  He could describe Winnemac any way he wanted, and no one could object.

I'm not sure why the author of the stories I read decided to set his stories in Winnemac, except that Zenith sounds like a great city to live in.

I'm trying to compose a story about a character who is a student at the business school of Columbia University when the story opens.  The story is so interwoven with New York that I doubt it would work with a fictional university instead.  Or perhaps it's more that I can't write it without keeping Columbia in mind; would it really matter to readers?

On the other hand, another character has inherited an estate Upstate that I think has to be placed in a fictional New York county, because I want to do stuff that reality would get in the way of.

Anyway, that's my thinking at the moment.

[ReaderPaul]

@BigBen, I read a story back about 2006 where an author made up a fictional town in Iowa -- he thought.  It turned out that there really was a town in Iowa with that name at almost the exact place in Iowa he designated in the story!  However, the real town was about 3,000 people, and the fictional city was over 100,000 people.  After that, he started using Google Maps and Yahoo Maps to check whether a place of that name existed.

On the other hand, New York and Columbia University are much more well known than towns in Iowa.  Fictionalizing something in those places should be easy compared to that.

Edited September 16, 2022 by ReaderPaul
Attempting to correct grammar.

[lawfulneutralmage]

I can only agree with the previous answers, I would just like to add something that annoys me a lot about naming, mainly in fantasy and sci-fi settings. That is when people go overboard with this.

If you have the Mylnok empire at war with the Gawarrites who get supported by the Ronofel kingdom and the main characters (a mix of species whose names I safe for this example)  working as mercenaries for Jarkilyyns trading syndicate trying to profit from the war ... I would be lost after the second name. Same goes for alien characters species or names.

IRL, if it gets too complicated, people tend to shorten names or give nick names. That is what people in a story would do, too.

 

 

[John Henry]

On 9/14/2022 at 10:33 AM, AC Benus said:

Seeking some general opinions. I'm preparing my Becoming Real for the press and wondering about place names.

I first wrote these short stories concerning my coming out process soon after going through it. The clubs and bars mentioned in it, so much a part of the Gay Community in Saint Louis then, are now sadly closed. Consequently, I'm looking at the fake names I made up for two of these establishments way back when and wondering why I'd keep the fake names at this point in time. Surely Angles and Magnolia's deserve to be properly acknowledged, right. . . ? They played an important part in my personal journey. 

Other names I fictionalized are up for discussion too. Any reason I should not state the university I actually attended?

A second school is mentioned because of a high-ranking professor I met from there. Should I name names of this university as well . . . ? If it matters, the professor is and was out even then.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated

 

Unless you're creating your own fictitious city, you don't need to fictionalize real place or product names, since it falls under Fair Use laws.  It's a good idea to change the names of real people to protect them or avoid likeness rights issues.  If you plan on defaming a company or organization, you should definitely change the name and avoid direct references or hints.  On the show Community, Greendale College is loosely based on Dan Harmon's experiences at Glendale University, which would not lend their name to the show.

With that said, I've always had a problem coming up with names in general.  I keep a list of names on my phone as a back up for table top roleplaying games, which also works for my writing.  You can also use a random name generator, which is easily found online.

When in doubt, err on the side of caution.

[AC Benus]

@John HenryThanks for the insightful, informative message. For Becoming Real, I did decide to stick with fake names for the schools (in deference to a professor "named" in the book), but used the real club names as tribute. Nothing about their description could be considered critical; the opposite, they're loving tributes to places now long vanished. People names were and will always stay fictitious.

But your comments on fair use make me want to ask you about another book of mine. In a collection of novellas set during Christmas seasons at the Famous-Barr department store, I have based several of the stories on actual, documented holiday themes. So, 1964, for example, talks about Walt Disney and their new movie Mary Poppins. While 1976 revolves about Padding Bear coming to the store for Christmas.

I have been seriously considering if these novellas can be "safe" to publish. With 1964, do you think fair use covers mention of Disney's actual visit to the store? And with Mary Poppins, I feel I should create an alternative character that does not refer back to the original books or Disney's film versions of them.

What about Padding Bear? Is he "safe" to mention? This story also involves Julia Child's actual time at the store for the '76 season. Somehow I feel speaking about her is acceptable, for like Disney, these are public figures who chose to put themselves in the general culture (warts and all). This being said, again, there's not a critical reference in the novellas to either figure; they are also warmly cheered in loving ways. Showered with praise, as it were.

Thoughts?

 

 

 

[lawfulneutralmage]

 @Valkyrie, was there not a help page or forum about copyright questions? Sorry, if you are not the right person to ask, but somehow you came to my mind...

[John Henry]

1 hour ago, AC Benus said:

@John HenryThanks for the insightful, informative message. For Becoming Real, I did decide to stick with fake names for the schools (in deference to a professor "named" in the book), but used the real club names as tribute. Nothing about their description could be considered critical; the opposite, they're loving tributes to places now long vanished. People names were and will always stay fictitious.

But your comments on fair use make me want to ask you about another book of mine. In a collection of novellas set during Christmas seasons at the Famous-Barr department store, I have based several of the stories on actual, documented holiday themes. So, 1964, for example, talks about Walt Disney and their new movie Mary Poppins. While 1976 revolves about Padding Bear coming to the store for Christmas.

I have been seriously considering if these novellas can be "safe" to publish. With 1964, do you think fair use covers mention of Disney's actual visit to the store? And with Mary Poppins, I feel I should create an alternative character that does not refer back to the original books or Disney's film versions of them.

What about Padding Bear? Is he "safe" to mention? This story also involves Julia Child's actual time at the store for the '76 season. Somehow I feel speaking about her is acceptable, for like Disney, these are public figures who chose to put themselves in the general culture (warts and all). This being said, again, there's not a critical reference in the novellas to either figure; they are also warmly cheered in loving ways. Showered with praise, as it were.

Thoughts?

 

 

 

Okay.  There are many nuances when it comes to Fair Use with copyrights and trademarks.  So let's establish a few ground rules:

1.  You can passively mention a real person, place, product or company without issue.  For example, "Jimmy prefers Coke over Pespi."  That's fair use.
2.  You cannot/should not use a person, place, product or company with frequent occurrences.  For example, "Jimmy works for Cocoa-Cola" is fine, but if the story is centered around Cocoa-Cola, you will infringe on Cocoa-Cola's trademarks since it isn't happen stance or incidental.
3.  You can bypass Rule #2 when using it in parody.  For example, you can't write a fantasy world that in habits Hobbits, as that is still owned by the Tolkien estate; however, if you're fictional world parodies Lord of the Rings (such as National Lampoons' Bored of the Rings book), you can get away with it, as long as you make the necessary changes to the original materials to qualify as parody.
4.  Mentioning a famous or real life person is okay, but you cannot make them into main or frequently used characters without violating or triggering Likeness Rights.  For example, Jimmy could be a huge Mark Hamill fan so he's on a quest to meet his hero, but you can't make Mark Hamill a regular character without risking likeness rights problems.  There is nuance to this, such as basing characters on real people to the point that it is clearly said person, name change or not.  A good fictional example can be found in the movie Chasing Amy regarding Jay & Silent Bob being used as the basis for Bluntman & Chronic.
5.  Publicly owned places, like parks, and government agencies (for almost all of them) are always fair use.  Space Force is the exception.  Space Force's copyrights and trademarks are actually owned by the people who made the Netflix series, Space Force, since Donald Trump's administration didn't secure any of that when creating the agency.  It isn't very likely they'd go after you, but they technically still could.
6.  Fan fiction can still violate copyrights and trademarks.  Ann Rice, Wizards of the Coast (owners of Magic: the Gathering and Dungeons & Dragons) and others have tried to stop fan fiction from being made, so you may want to do some research before writing in those worlds.
7.  When in doubt, change it all together.  

Not that we have that established, we have to discuss Fair Use vs. Public Domain.

Public Doman deal with two essential issues:  Expired copyrights & trademarks and common uses in language, such as slang (in particular).

There's a great video by Devin from Legal Eagle on YouTube that goes over this in better detail than I will (he's also a lawyer, and I'm not), but until a copyright or trademark expires, you cannot legally use it without permission (preferably written).  Any attempt to do so, can leave you open for a lawsuit.  As for Disney, a lot of their older materials were taken from sources what were already in Public Domain at the time.  For example, Snow White and the Seven Dwarves.  You can write a story using Snow White and Disney can't stop you; however, you cannot use the seven dwarves as depicted in the film, since Disney came up with the names of each one.  Under fair use, you can casually mention the dwarves by name, but that it has to be as brief as possible and they can't be reoccurring characters.  You can use Whinny the Pooh from the original book, but you cannot use Disney depiction of the character.  Steamboat Willy is set to expire next year, so you can use that character in your stories, but you cannot use Mickey Mouse, who is essentially Steamboat Willy.

As for Common Use in Language, anytime a copyright or trademark become so synonymous with a particular item that any like-item is called by that copyright or trademark, it basic overrides the rights and becomes Public Domain.  For example, "aspirin" and "band-aids" are technically trademarked (Baer owns Aspirin and Johnson & Johnson owns Band-Aids), but since the product name is also used to describe other, similar products the trademark doesn't hold unless you are specifically referring to the brand names themselves.  This is where grammar is very important.  "Aspirin" is trademarked, but "aspirin" is not.  In a story, you can say, "could you get me coke?", meaning any cola, or, "could you get me a Coke?", meaning Cocoa-Cola, the specific drink.  One is public domain while the other is fair use.

Each country has their own rules and laws regarding all of this, so it's good to google it for your place of origin.  Disney is constantly trying to extend the length of time to hold its copyrights and trademarks, which they have done a lot, so just do a quick search and you should find it.

[John Henry]

On 4/15/2023 at 9:08 PM, lawfulneutralmage said:

I can only agree with the previous answers, I would just like to add something that annoys me a lot about naming, mainly in fantasy and sci-fi settings. That is when people go overboard with this.

If you have the Mylnok empire at war with the Gawarrites who get supported by the Ronofel kingdom and the main characters (a mix of species whose names I safe for this example)  working as mercenaries for Jarkilyyns trading syndicate trying to profit from the war ... I would be lost after the second name. Same goes for alien characters species or names.

IRL, if it gets too complicated, people tend to shorten names or give nick names. That is what people in a story would do, too.

 

 

I think George R. R. Martin had a good idea about having an appendix in the back with the nicknames, places, houses, etc. that he referenced to help readers.  The same could be accomplished on here with notes and the prologue sections.  One of my favorite animes, Bastard, turned heavy metal band names into locations but used puns to do it.  On a personal note, avoid the remake.  It sucks compared to the original.

I think names should also be pronounceable.  If it doesn't "roll off the tongue" it isn't worth reading, in my opinion.

[Valkyrie]

On 5/25/2023 at 4:03 PM, lawfulneutralmage said:

 @Valkyrie, was there not a help page or forum about copyright questions? Sorry, if you are not the right person to ask, but somehow you came to my mind...

Sorry for the delay in responding. For some reason I didn't get the notification about this post. There is a club specifically for copyright questions.  @Cia is actually the best person to ask, since she has a lot more knowledge than I do about copyright information.  I believe she has written some blog posts about copyright information as well. 

 

[John Henry]

1 hour ago, Valkyrie said:

Sorry for the delay in responding. For some reason I didn't get the notification about this post. There is a club specifically for copyright questions.  @Cia is actually the best person to ask, since she has a lot more knowledge than I do about copyright information.  I believe she has written some blog posts about copyright information as well. 

 

Copyright varies from country to country, so you need to check your local laws.  In the United States, copyright is automatic, though fighting to protect it can be a pain.  To register your copyright, you need to send a copy of the material to the Library of Congress, which will log it into their system.  To use someone else copyrights, you need permission (which can be verified) and list them and their copyright.  Fair Use doesn't need to have that.  Open Licenses, like you'd find in Open Game Licenses (such as for Dungeons and Dragons), have requirements for use and credits, which would be found in the terms of service section.  It is a very complicated thing, which is why there's an entire legal field dedicated to it.  When in doubt, make up your thing.