AFriendlyFace

I bet he's adorable! I'm celebrating the big news about gay marriage in Iowa and Vermont!!

I believe that would have been Robbie (Rknapp) Grew up on Whoopie? You can't even get born without it!

Yeah, I pretty much agree with this. Look on the bright side, he didn't take you out again. Why is that a good thing? Because it sounds like he was never interested in something serious, only in sex. He might have been the sort of guy who liked a challenge and strung you along until he did get in your pants. Wouldn't that have been worse? Instead he did the somewhat more honourable thing and decided to leave you alone and let you down easy (probably what he thought he was doing) when he realized you weren't interested in casual sex. James is right in that he probably got mixed signals from you at first. He was thinking, "hook up" and you weren't. When he realized that he probably thought it would be nicer to make excuses instead of being blunt. I can see your point that you'd have preferred bluntness, but bluntly letting someone down isn't easy for a lot of people. I have an ex I broke up with, "because I was too busy and didn't have enough time." That was true, but I also just didn't think it was working. Now, nine months later I still get random calls/texts from him asking if I have more free time now and trying to make plans. It's my fault for not being more honest and direct. I get that. But I really think in the majority of cases if someone keeps making excuses and finding polite ways to say no, it means they're not interested. To make matters more complicated, some people don't prefer bluntness. If a relationship is in its early, getting to know you stage (not later), the I'd definitely prefer for the guy to let me down easy and do pretty much what he did, rather that be blunt with me. Not everyone is the same. Some people prefer to be blunt, some people don't. Some people prefer it when others are direct with them, others prefer it when people are gentle and more evasive with them and let them take the hint on their own. Pick yourself up and try again. There are plenty of guys out there who aren't just interested in sex. Some are interested in dating; he might not have been. Look at it this way, you had a fun time that evening and enjoyed his company and the attention. Take it for what it is, a nice memory to look back on and a chance to be proud of yourself for both having a good time and still being able to uphold your boundaries and feel good about yourself. That's not a bad thing at all. Good luck, dude, and take care -Kevin

Yes, exactly! So just let me say again, Wooo HOOO Vermont!!

Oh how very dreadful! I'm glad they're okay, Lacy

Aww I hope you didn't have too rough a time in elementary school. I'm not particularly intimidated by tall people, but I think in general it's natural and unavoidable to be a bit wary at first when encountering people much larger in size. For most of human existence we spent our time sizing each other up and deciding if the other person was a physical threat. Someone much larger than us would have been, so even if there's no real danger, I think that's at least partly instinctive. Personally I definitely have a preference for guys around my height give or take an inch or two. If it's more than an inch or two then my preference is definitely that they be shorter. That's not to say I wouldn't date a guy who was a good bit taller, but it wouldn't be my natural preference, just not necessarily a deal breaker, lol. If the guy is taller though, I'm more comfortable with him having a very slight build. Tall and skinny is okay, but tall and muscular/bulky tends to not be what I'm attracted to. It undoubtedly has something to do with subconscious power/dominance issues, but it would take a lot more effort on my part to be with someone a good bit larger altogether. Anyway, I don't feel badly about it, because it seems like most tall, muscular guys are in high demand with the ladies and gay boys, so I'm sure they can do without my romantic affections (Anyway, if I fell in love with the guy for other reasons it would still be okay, just not what I'm expecting or seeking).

I can understand the situation a bit better now I think. Thanks, Ieshwar! I agree!

Welcome to the site! Welcome Dragon! This probably isn't what you're talking about, but you would be welcome and able to put a link in your signature to something you post in eFiction

Hey dude, I'm so sorry you're going through all this I have some thoughts. I think the best way to "work things out" is going to depend on the dynamics of your particular relationship. Only you can really say what the best way to "fix" this is, because you're the one in the situation and you know yourself and him far better than any of us do. As a caveat I would say that if you have any close mutual friends who understand both of you pretty well, then they may be able to give you insight because they would benefit from having the fresh, outside perspective, but also from knowing both of you pretty well. Everyone in this thread undoubtedly wants to help and wants to make the situation better for you guys, but we don't know him at all and most of us probably don't know you that well either. We've certainly never seen the two of you interact. All we can do is tell you what we would do, or what we think might work based on what you've said. I'm hoping someone happens to suggest something which gives you perspective and makes you say, "yeah! That might help!" I'll have another attempt myself. I've recently repaired a broken friendship that was very important to me. At one time I would have described this person as one of my best friends and obviously I cared about him and trusted him a lot. The "break up" was very painful and confusing. The friendship didn't heal quickly by any means, but the way it did heal was through casual time spent together which gradually grow in intensity and frequency. In other words we didn't have any sort of direct relationship at all for awhile, but we still had quite a few mutual friends and saw each other during common activities. We were generally nice to each other, and over time things very gradually mended. The only reason they did though was probably because we continued to see each other, rarely at first. Now things are pretty much better than ever between us. If you don't have any contact with him at all for the next several months and then you only run into each other once or twice here and there...well yeah, maybe things won't really get mended. On the other hand, if you have mutual friends and activities of interest, then maybe they can provide a non-intense, neutral sort of common ground where you can still see each other and interact but with less pressure and awkwardness. My mended friendship was more or less unintentional, after I grieved and dealt with the loss I didn't intent to purposely rebuild the friendship at all, so I didn't purposely look for these sorts of non-awkward contact situations, nevertheless they just sort of happened. Obviously my situation is vastly different from yours, but the point remains that if you do have anyone you might be spending time with anyway, who also has a friendship with him, then you can sort of manipulate this non-awkward contact with him. Just say to your mutual friend, "Hey, why don't we/you invite ___ to join us." If your friend is someone who can understand the situation and be supportive then they may very well be willing to do whatever they can to help out without overly butting in. I dunno, just another suggestion. It may or may not help at all. I hope it does though I can see how Old Bob's post can be a bitter pill to swallow, Nickolas, but in honesty I more or less agree with the general message in it. The message I'm reading is that once it is apparent there's not really anything you can do about it, your only two options are essentially to remain in misery or pick yourself up and move on. Moving on really is the only tolerable choice IMO. That doesn't mean it won't be painful, but if you can't fix things then what else can you really do? I also think it's true that you undoubtedly do have lots of other people out there whom you can meet or get to know better who can provide you with warm, satisfying relationships. That's sort of a message of hope to me. Yes, this situation sucks, but try this new one and see how it goes. I also think that Old Bob is expressing general truths about life and "fate" in his post. Sometimes what's done is done and the best you can do now is look back with happiness over the good times. You had 18 wonderful years with him; that should provide a well-spring of happy memories to draw upon! I'm hoping you get to create more with him, but if you don't, please take solace in those good times. The only point I'll disagree with is that now might be the time to stop grieving and move on. I think there's still a chance of repairing things, and regardless only you can know when you're ready to stop grieving. I will say though that I don't think you have the "right" (and I mean this in that from my perspective you owe yourself more) to be miserable forever, or even completely miserable for more than another month or so. After a "reasonable" amount of time (which you mostly get to define, but which I could caution you against defining to be too long a span), I do think it'll be time for you to start to get on with your life. It is okay to still be sad sometimes and to get unhappy and hurt when you think about what happened, but you should still start to move on and put it behind you after this "reasonable amount of time." Basically, I think after that period of time you should start gradually actively looking for (and yes I know this is going to sound horrible and hurt) a new best friend and new chances at happiness. If things obviously aren't going to get better, or if they aren't going to get better any time in the foreseeable future, what other tolerable option do you really have? I'm not saying that time is yet. I think your friendship still has a good chance, I really do! I also think that you'll be the best judge of when it is time to give up on it (at least for now). when that time does come, yes take your time and grieve enough to get it out and start to heal, but please don't be 'seduced' by the grief and despair. After it servers its purpose please do push it aside and start to move on. Anyway, I'm not you, or him, or anyone of relevance in this situation, so take everything I've just said with a grain of salt Good luck, Kevin

LOL, Oddly enough I was just having a conversation an MTF transwoman today about vocal pitch. Hmm, I have some thoughts on this, Martin. If you don't want to be a part of it, then I definitely think that's fine, but I would encourage you to keep an open mind in general and also to judge it on more than just one or two contextual situations. Gay culture is not synonymous with gay club culture. There is a LOT more to it than that and even if you don't like gay club culture it doesn't mean you can find things you enjoy that relate to: -Humour -History -Art -Literature (indeed I would say that you're probably at least marginalized exposed to, and I would speculate enjoying, this aspect of gay culture already and would likely enjoy reading and contemplating print books as well) -Music -Movies -Ethics and Values -Social Perspectives. You might also enjoy gay venues and gay socialization more in a non-club setting. For example gay run, and patronized: -Restaurants, -Cafes -Stores, Businesses, and other services (almost any and every type you can imagine) -Pubs and bars (which can often be more relaxed than clubs). -There are also gay sports and recreation leagues for almost any sport or game you can imagine. -There are quite a few gay religious organizations for almost any denomination you can think of (even the traditionally homophobic ones often have their own "gay" branch consisting of still devout followers who are attempting to reconcile their faith and sexuality). -The are gay professional organizations for lawyers, doctors, and a ton of other careers. -Obviously we mustn't forget things like the theatre, symphony, and opera, which are certainly stereotypical and may not be your thing, but which you might still view as more positive overall. So simply because you don't like gay club culture (or any one or two other aspects of gay culture), please don't dismiss the whole thing out of hand and decide that you wouldn't enjoy other forms of gay socialization or the unique spin GLBT people have put on some other common, everyday life experiences and activities. I actually quite agree with this as well. My experiences with gay clubs (and as I said, gay clubs are a relatively small part of gay culture overall anyway) has been quite positive as a whole. No offense meant at all, but maybe you're going to the bitchier sort of clubs or interacting with the more judgmental people at the clubs. More simply, maybe you're just going to the wrong sorts of clubs for you. I know a lot of gay people who like Metallica (don't tell anyone, but I myself like their music, but dislike them on principle dating back to the whole Napster/MP3 thing from the late 90s). A fondness for heavier rock music is not at all "ungay," nor is wearing band shirts, jeans, and having long hair. There is most definitely a gay scene for that. Of course one of notable size might not exist in your location. I agree, good points! So didja win? I agree with all this. I think a lot of this, like almost all behavioural, social things, comes down to how the person perceives what is appropriate in the context at hand. One sign of having good social skills is being able to express yourself (not lose yourself) in the language and style most appropriate to your situation. The language and expression I use in a professional setting is going to be different from the language I use in a social setting with casual friends, and both will be different from the language and expression style I use with close friends and close family members. I'll probably use a slightly different style of expression still if I'm going to be be speaking and socializing at a gay rights event, or engaging in a theological/philosophical/spiritual discussion. I'm still going to try to express my core ideals and the main aspects of my personality, but I'm going to do these things very differently in each situation. I think that very often after a period of time gay people have spent a lot of time with other gay people and a lot of the linguistic styles and expressions have "rubbed off" on them. It's very likely that they'll start to emulate the expression style while in these settings, and there's nothing wrong with that at all; it's what all people do to "fit in" to their environments and feel comfortable. I think it's inevitable, and as I said desirable, that some of those ways of communicating will carry over into other situations to some extent. It might be that the person seems "less gay" in their professional role as a doctor let's say, but there will still be traces of the "gay person" there because that's an important aspect of the person. In the same way, the gay person might sound less like a "doctor" in social settings, but some ways of communicating, thinking, and behaving are most certainly going to remain because again being a doctor is significant in this person's life. Naturally it's also likely that the way one expresses oneself with intimate family and friends (not 'social' per se, more the unique 'language' of the family) will also come through in some places. I think it's this big, rich amalgam of contexts and individual cultures and 'languages' that makes each person uniquely who they are. I for one am happy that my experiences, history, and status as a gay person is expressed in the way I communicate. Just a few more of my thoughts -Kevin

Happy Birthday, Martin! I hope the day brings you all the happiness you deserve and may the coming year fill you with joy! -Kevin

Hmm, Christmas before last my best friend and I went to a holiday party at the home of one of our friends from church. There were a couple of other gay people there, but the majority were straight people (notable because I rarely socialize much anymore in groups where straight people are predominant ). Anyway, no one swore for the entire evening. That is until we broke into two huge teams and started playing the party game "Taboo." In case anyone is unfamiliar with the game players take turns getting cards. The card will have a word on it, let's say "broom." Below the main word will be five other words which the player isn't allowed to say while describing the primary word to his/her team. For example "bristles," "sweep," "witch," "mop," and "dustpan," might be disallowed for the clue broom. The player gets a set amount of time and the more words he/she is able to correctly describe to his/her team without saying the taboo words, the more points the team gets. One of the players from the opposing team monitors the clue giving player to make sure that he/she doesn't say one of the taboo words. If the player does then the monitoring person presses the buzzer and the team loses a point. So we're all having a good time, and I've already gone a few times and done pretty well so I'm starting to get a bit competitive. Anyway, sure enough halfway through my turn I accidentally say one of the taboo words and the buzzer goes off. Without being able to stop myself I exclaimed, "Oh F***!" At first everyone seemed a bit surprised then everyone started to laugh (and of course this interruption made my turn even less effective ). But anyway, the whole evening the only time anyone swore it was me, a gay guy In general though I think I do agree with Ieshwar's statements. I think as a whole gay people might be moderately less likely to swear in social settings than straight people, but I actually think the "sophisticated" thing he's describing is very accurate and has a lot to do with general word usage and language style. I think that's a good point, Tim. I definitely think one of the key aspects is indeed the stressing and pronunciation of words versus just the pitch with which they are said. I also agree that a lot of gay people are more likely to use those terms of endearment like "hun" or "sweety." I don't use them that often, but I do occasionally, and I'm sure I'm more likely to do it than your average straight male. On the other hand I call people, "dude" a good bit, and less frequently but occasionally, "man" and when I say that I do mean it as a term of endearment. I wouldn't say it to someone I didn't like, which can be seen in the fact that I occasionally say it to lesbians and perhaps the rare straight girl. I embarrassed myself one time though when I was hanging out with some friends and one of them was an MTF trans person. I hadn't known the person long but I was growing to like her, and without thinking about it I accidentally addressed her as, "dude." You can imagine how that went over

Great pic, Joe

The situation is very sad indeed

Happy Birthday, Devin! I hope you have a very special and happy day and a truly awesome year! -Kevin

Glad you took the plunge and decided to join! Welcome to the forum and I hope you have a lot of fun Have a great day! Kevin

I don't think "effeminate" is the whole story. Certainly some gay guys do sound effeminate, as do many straight guys, and certainly many gay guys don't sound effeminate (as do many straight guys). However, as the article indicates (and as I agree with) there are other pronunciation styles and speech patterns which have nothing to do with the pitch of the voice. When I think of "effeminate sounding" I think of a high, more feminine voice, and I think one can certainly sound gay without sounding effeminate. Indeed I've known guys who didn't sound effeminate but did sound gay. Really, I'm thinking of this as more of an accent and a style of speech (vernacular, slang, idioms, and other expressions) than as anything relating to the tone of voice itself. Again to use the same example "sounding Southern" has nothing to do with how feminine or masculine you sound. Going back to the specific style of speech part of this (and focusing less on the accent here), my friends and I occasionally use words, and describe/express things, in ways that the average, non-gay exposed straight person would not even understand. Or we legitimately say things and use phrases that while popular enough to be understood by all aren't likely to be used by non-gays. -Kevin

I recently came across an interesting article on the topic of gay speech. I'm not trying to present it as scientific at all, in fact it seems like they used a small sample size and did a great deal of speculating and conjecturing. Nevertheless, I found it thoroughly interesting and thought it might be nice to have a chat about it here. Check it out: Sounding Gay I think the last sentence, unrelated to actually sounding gay, brings up an interesting point: I have no doubt that a lot people will find the article controversial. In fact I fully expect several of you to vehemently assert something to the effect of, "I don't sound gay." or "I don't think it's accurate to try to generalize something like that to refer to all gays." Well okay, maybe you don't sound gay, and undoubtedly many gays are indistinguishable by their voices. Nevertheless, my personal opinion (again, just opinion, not trying to say it's fact) is that a lot of gay people are identifiable by their voices and speech patterns. I have a pretty good gaydar and at least some part of that is based on how the person sounds. On past occasions I've accurately identified gay people in non-sexually oriented environments strictly by the sound of their voice (without ever having seen them, and only getting confirmation of their sexuality later). Personally, I don't find it controversial or offensive. I think it's fine if someone doesn't sound gay, but I think sounding gay is at least a mildly positive quality (assuming you are gay that is). I often speak of gay culture, and like every other culture, I think speech patterns play a role in that. I think it's a good thing for gay people to sound subtly gay because it affirms their status and culture. By the same token I think it's perfectly fine for people's voices to indicate their racial/ethnic status or geographic region. Assuming they're comfortable and happy with this status I see no problem at all in representing it. I can see the argument that having one's sexuality (or race/ethnicity or geographic region) identified by voice can expose one to prejudice, but that's a failing on the prejudiced listener's part, not on the speaker's. I can hear someone and think "oh he/she is ____" (insert race/ethnicity) or "oh he/she is ___" (insert geographic region) and not feel any prejudice toward that person. Nor do I then begin to hold expectations or stereotypes for that person. In simple terms I can pick out a Southern accent, but that doesn't mean I think the person I've pegged as "Southern" is going to act or behave a certain way due to their status as a Southerner. Anyway, I enjoyed the brief article, can't attest for sure one way or the other about its accuracy, but speculatively agree with it for the most part, and I also think that it's mostly a good thing if gays have their own unique speech patterns in the same way that I'm in favour of all other cultural aspects (literature, music, history, art, cuisine, fashion, etc.) One final note, all of my comments (and it seems to me like the article's speculations as well) are only in reference to gay males. I strongly suspect lesbians have a distinct style of speech as well, but despite knowing a lot of lesbians, I'm still pretty sketchy on picking it out, so I really can't make any comment about it. Take care all and have a great day Kevin

Oh Myr, I'm so sorry This sucks big time! I'm sure it's no consolation, but the issues I went through with Comcast back in January literally made me angrier and more frustrated than I've been in a good 5 or 6 years. I'm usually a very calm person, but they had me literally screaming into the phone. Like you I also had no recourse because Comcast is a monopoly in my area for cable. I did try to switch to AT&T for DSL, but after three failed installation attempts by their technicians I finally gave up. I really don't blame AT&T, apparently the wiring is just an archaic disaster and they obviously tried to do everything they could. No, Comcast is most certainly the enemy. Anyway, cable monopolies suck and these companies treat consumers like crap because they know we have no alternatives. I hope their little experiment fails and they drop the whole thing very soon. Good luck getting through this mess and thanks for keeping us updated. -Kevin

Wow! This is so awesome! I have to confess it wasn't on my radar at all! I got a text about an hour ago from a friend with the news, but he said "they'd struck down the ban on gay marriage." So I simply took that to mean that the actual possibility of gay marriage was now an option that might be discussed in the future. This is obviously a million percent better!!

What a beautiful and moving piece. I personally am inclined to believe that there is love out there for everyone

Exciting chapter! I will say though that I was hoping for a bit more Eric/Jansen/Helen/Jane etc. That story line is the one I prefer, so I'm sorry there was only one section on it. Still, very exciting chapter and I'm looking forward to the next one!

By the look of it they'll never catch him!

Sounds like an awesome time, CJ! LOL, now you you me craving a tasty cappuccino, and I certainly won't be able to find one that compares! I hope you're having fun! Take care and be safe -Kevin

I really like this poem and the imagery it calls to mind. Personally I'm a big fan for poems with a solid, repeating structure, so I quite like the "talk to me as we..." framework. I also like how each verse matches well with the other lines in that verse. Great piece, Rose -Kevin