third vs first person

[Graeme]

I started with first person. My first two novels and my first few short stories were all first person. However, I did find it limiting for some of the things that I wanted to write, so I spent some time practising with third person (short stories are a great way of practising different writing techniques because you're not locked in by what you've written previously -- this was an idea I picked up from Drake Hunter and I've been using it ever since).

 

I'm now writing mainly in third person because it offers more freedom, though it has its own challenges (like what to write about, since I've got the freedom to write about an entire universe if I want to....). I did have one interesting situation recently that relates to this thread. I had a short story, written in third person, that I wasn't happy with. I felt it was too dry and that I wasn't presenting the protagonist strongly enough. What I did was to re-write it in first person. That allowed me to get more into the mind of the character, and to present his views and thoughts more strongly. Once I was happy with it, I then converted it back to third person and that's the way it ended up. I chose the later because I'm preserving the option of expanding the short story out to a novel at some future time, and third person will be better suited because it won't be a story about a single person -- I need to show a broad range of characters and third person is best for that.

 

There is nothing wrong with first person. I started with first person because I found it easiest -- I just had to imagine myself as the narrator and write what came to me as a consequence. That novel also suited first person because it was about the evolution of a single character, the narrator.

 

Stories that revolve around a central character (such as coming out, or coming of age stories), or stories where the author wants to restrict the information flow to the reader (such as mysteries) are examples where first person is a good fit. Similarly, any psychological type stories (again, coming of age or coming out stories can be classified in this way, as they deal with the way the protagonist interacts with others) are good for first person.

 

Wide ranging stories with a broad selection of major characters are not well suited for first person. You can still do it if you're skilled, but it's a lot easier to write them in third person.

 

There are grey areas where it can be a tough choice. In this situation, the author needs to look ahead to what's going to happen in the future to determine if first person will meet their requirements, or if they should use third person to give themselves more options in the future.

 

Just my two cents worth...

[Former Member]

I am a weird 1 where when i write some of my stuff in the same story is done in 1st person i think its called... example "I got hit by a bus" and other parts will be "The boy woke up in a hospital bed and couldn't remember how he got there" My good friend who reads alot of the same novels as i read was laughing so hard at me that i will do alot of this. Like the boy who cant remember how he got there later on someone will come and talk to him and its back to "And the lady told me i got hit by a bus" he was telling me YOU CANT DO THAT YOU CANT SWITCH VIEWS! THAT WILL DRIVE THE READER CRAZY! I laughed and said "I'm the writer i can do anything i want!"

 

So far i have done this 3 times i think it was in the story i have been working on. At first it was to set the intro. Then another time it was to end a scene and jump into a few more.

 

What can i say? I'm learning as i go

[Tiger]

Sometimes mixing 1st person and 3rd person can work quite well. However, it can also be risky, because it can interrupt the flow of the story. I suggest using the mix with caution. Personally, I do not tend to mix the two, because I have gotten into the habit of mostly writing in 3rd with the exception of Dark Earth: The Prophecy. The only other story I have posted that is in 1st person is my Spring Anthology entry. However, I have some ideas for the winter one, and my idea includes the 1st-person perspective.

[PlugInMatty]

Interesting that this should come up, because I'm currently writing a mystery where I'm juggling two separate narratives/POVs.

 

The primary narrative is in first person, but I'm using third person to steadily feed the reader more clues to solving the mystery. More specifically, I'm using third person to feed the reader information that the first person narrator can't/shouldn't be privy to at that stage of the story.

 

Another reason for using first person is that I find it conveys emotion in a more 'authentic' way. Remember, life is 10% what happens and 90% how you react. I've got a couple of social issues I'm trying to explore, and a large part of my word count will be used exploring the emotions/reactions associated with these issues. If I'm writing in third person and I'm struggling to convey emotion, then 90% of my story is going to be sub-standard.

 

I'm also finding characterisation a lot easier in first person, although that probably has a lot to do with conveying emotion. A lot of my early objectives are to do with characterisation, so 60-70% of my early narrative is written in first person. However, once the first and third person narratives intersect, I'm finding that 60-70% of the story will actually be written in third person. In particular, I've got a stretch of 4-5 chapters coming up in which the plot will be driven almost exclusively by the third-person narrative.

 

All sounds a bit messy, doesn't it?

 

Maybe it is, but I think I'm getting the best of both worlds here. I get to create a strong central character and explore emotion in the most powerful way I can. At the same time, in third person, I can feed the reader all of the information necessary to create cliffhangers and keep the plot moving at a decent pace.

 

Now I think about it, most of my post probably isn't useful to anybody haha.

 

Maybe it's a quirk of the mystery genre, but rather than letting the limitations of each POV have a negative impact on my story, I'm actually able to use those limitations to my advantage. My first person narrator can't possibly know all of the details surrounding the mystery he's caught up in, but I can spend entire chapters exploring the mystery from his POV. More to the point, I can spend entire chapters releasing information in first person POV that makes the reader believe that A + B = C. Then, right at the end, I can release one piece of information in third person that means A + B cannot possibly equal C.

 

I think I might stop before this gets too complicated

 

Point is, each POV has limitations. However, it IS possible to use each POV's limitations to your advantage

[Graeme]

Third person can do everything first person can do, BUT it certainly is easier to give emotions and thoughts in first person. If you use third person limited, then you should be able to give the exact same level of emotions and thoughts, but you have to be careful how you word things.

 

First person is definitely a good selection in a number of areas. Mysteries are commonly first person, because it gives the read the exact same clues as the protagonist, and hence they have the chance to solve the mystery at the same time. Having said that, there are mysteries written in third person limited with the same characteristic (my favourite being the Cadfael series).

 

Another area where first person is a good selection is where you are exploring psychological or similar aspects of the situation. What's described above is an example of this. My latest short story, Superhero (shameless plug ) is written in first person for exactly this reason. My next novel (assuming I finish it) will be first person for this reason, too.

[Tiger]

I hope this thread is appropriate for this thread, and please go ahead and split it if you feel the need.

 

I have recently completed a series in 1st person. However, it is part of a trilogy, and I am going to write the remaining two in 3rd omniscient. I am doing this so that I can cover all the characters without having them constantly attached to the main character. He is still central to the plot, but I want to cover the others. As a matter of fact, I just finished the 1st Chapter of the sequel, and I am happy with the freedom of 3rd person for the new series. Is it okay to do this?

[PlugInMatty]

remember kids, proofread before you post

[Graeme]

I have recently completed a series in 1st person. However, it is part of a trilogy, and I am going to write the remaining two in 3rd omniscient. I am doing this so that I can cover all the characters without having them constantly attached to the main character. He is still central to the plot, but I want to cover the others. As a matter of fact, I just finished the 1st Chapter of the sequel, and I am happy with the freedom of 3rd person for the new series. Is it okay to do this?

Consistency is always better, but readers are generally a tolerant lot You can get away with a lot if there's a good reason. Don't worry about it.

[Tiger]

Consistency is always better, but readers are generally a tolerant lot You can get away with a lot if there's a good reason. Don't worry about it.

There is a good reason. There's a lot more going on beyond the prism that is the main character. I also want people to see him from a different persective than they did before. I can think of two others on GA who have done the same, and it seems to work well when used in a proper context.

[Cynical Romantic]

I hope I'm not out of place weighing in on this discussion, but I just wanted to say that I thought it was interesting that a lot of people view 1st person PoV as the "beginner's domain". I've heard that before, myself, and I think that it probably stems from the natural tendency of many beginning writers to fall into that style.

 

First person offers a lot of advantages, IMHO. If you avoid the trap of making the person yourself, and create a real character with a life of his/her own, it can be the best way to give readers an emotional connection to the characters, since third-person runs the risk of detachment. It's also a good way of allowing other characters in the story to evolve in the mind of readers at the same time as in the mind of the protagonist, as he or she matures. I can think of countless examples; a few that come to mind are "The Secret History" by Donna Tartt, or "White Oleander" by Janet Fitch. (Okay, I think both of those are respectively the first novels of the authors, so maybe the whole "beginner's domain" thing isn't entirely unfounded, but I digress.) The point is, in both cases, you have central characters who start off as being viewed one way by the first-person PoV, and in the course of the story, change entirely into something else, simply because the narrator has learned and grown and changed his or her view of them. There's something very real about seeing characters through the eyes of a person, and not through the eyes of an impartial omniscient presence.

 

The advantage of third person, of course, is that it allows for much more sophisticated storytelling techniques. Since you're not inside the head of a character, you can get a broader perspective on what's going on, or you can have hints or clues get strategically dropped in such a way that allows you to gradually tie the pieces together. A good story written in third person is a lot more like watching a movie, in a sense; you can use your imagination to picture how the story would be told, and put yourself in the head of the person sitting in the front row, viewing all the action from all the angles available. I find it's much less "dear diary"-esque, too. It's a lot easier to avoid long-winded explanations of everything that's going on inside a character's head. One of the hardest things for writers to learn is how to "show, not tell" the action, and third-person PoV forces this, which can be a great thing for a story.

 

One interesting technique is to first build up the emotional connection to the characters by using the first person in the initial story, and then broaden the scope using the third-person in the follow-up. I can think of two examples on this site where that has worked really well so far: Duncan Ryder's "Everybody's Wounded"/"How the Light Gets In" combo, and Dom Luka's "The Log Way"/"In The Fish Bowl". In both cases, the first story created some really compelling characters that readers became very, very attached to. And the second stories (both incomplete) seem to have taken the writing to the next level, allowing the stories to mature and take a jump outside the limited heads of those characters. Great stuff.

 

As for switching first-person PoVs, I agree it's amateurish when done poorly, but it doesn't have to be. I can think of a few examples where it's well done, mind you. If anyone's read Audrey Niffenegger's "The Time Traveler's Wife", for instance, that's a great example of a story that jumps back and forth between the two points of view of the protagonists, and the jumping serves a real purpose in the storytelling.

 

Anyway, I hope nobody minds me responding to this one; I usually don't read this forum since I figure it's the domain of the (many excellent) writers on this site, but I couldn't resist weighing in here.

[Graeme]

I hope I'm not out of place weighing in on this discussion, but I just wanted to say that I thought it was interesting that a lot of people view 1st person PoV as the "beginner's domain". I've heard that before, myself, and I think that it probably stems from the natural tendency of many beginning writers to fall into that style.

No, you're not out of place And I agree that a lot of beginning writers fall into that style. I know I did when I started out, but when I did my first (and so far only) novel in third person, I found a whole raft of new issues that I hadn't encountered using first person.

 

Having said that, third person limited is the closest to first person, because, while narrating slightly more detached, you still only get to see and feel what that character feels. The good novels I've read in third person limited have the equally same ability to get the reader to identify with the protagonist. But third person takes practise, so a lot of authors start with first person, for the reasons you've given. At least, that's my view

 

However, I'll re-iterate what's been said above: that first person is not really the "beginner's domain", because established authors also use it when appropriate. They are just more likely to use third person than a beginner

[Tiger]

The one I cannot seem to use is 3rd limited. I tend to want to go from character to character. I will still mainly focus on the main chracter(s), but some of the 2nd tier characters will sometimes have their own scenes, including the antagonist. Part of the reason I wanted to do 3rd omniscient for the sequel I'm writing is because of my desire to build the antagonists more and give the reader an idea of what they might do, though some dialogue is intentionally cryptic to make it fairly easy to surmise but not so obvious as to spoil the events themselves.

[Krista]

As I've said before, I'm primarily a 1st person writer. I'm a romance writer so I feel that those for me are easier to write in first person than third. If I wanted to write a Fantasy/Sci-fi, which is completely out of my comfort zone, I though would want to write it in third. Third to me is only better for those authors who like detail. They are more free to express detail and explain the happenings outside the character's mind in a more open way. First person limits an author because the character is controlling what the readers see and such like that.

 

 

I no longer think it's the beginner's level of writing, I think it's whatever you start out doing, it's just more first time authors will use first person and then branch out. It's what I've done, but I keep reverting back to first person because I like writing in first person.

[Tiff]

I really can't win! I started out my first series in first person, and multiple viewpoints, I might add (no-no), and now that I've finally got the hang of writing in third person and do it frequently, I can no longer write in the first person without getting the pronouns screwed up!

 

Usually it occurs when I'm really tired or really late at night...but still!

 

I don't think first person should be considered beginner's level. It's really how the author handles the entire piece. Domluka and Duncan Ryder were mentioned and although they used first person, they managed to tell a fantastic story, a hell of a lot better than some authors who write in the third person. It may be limited, but with one person they managed to convey such strong emotions and draw the readers in.

 

So I agree with Krista that it's sometimes how the author prefers to write. Sometimes rather than looking at technical stuff, just focus on the story and see where it takes you. Writing is an art and there is always a lot of wiggle room. Writing unconventionally and bending the rules, well as long as it works, then that's all that matters. If it's utter shit, then it's time to change something! Until then...keep writing!

[Tiger]

Tiff, the alternating points of view make a story difficult to follow. I will PM you more about that though.

[Tiff]

Oh definitely, alternating viewpoints is very confusing. I was in no way encouraging anyone to do that because it's not the easiest to follow, for the readers.

 

But I wrote so many chapters of the story already, I had to finish it in spite of it's huge flaw. And as of now, I can only go forward.

[Cynical Romantic]

Oh definitely, alternating viewpoints is very confusing. I was in no way encouraging anyone to do that because it's not the easiest to follow, for the readers.

 

But I wrote so many chapters of the story already, I had to finish it in spite of it's huge flaw. And as of now, I can only go forward.

 

Hey Tiff, I actually hadn't read any of your work until now. But this comment made me curious so I've started reading JOMM. I'm not done yet but I'm enjoying it so far. I wouldn't call it "flawed" like you did, but I can definitely see how it could work as a third-person story. There are a lot of characters to switch between, and sometimes it seems like you're dying to play omniscient narrator and the first-person PoV is holding you back. Like you're begging to break free from it, you know? Anyway, I'm gonna keep reading, and I'll provide more comments regarding the PoV to follow once I've finished.

[corvus]

I don't think first person should be considered beginner's level. It's really how the author handles the entire piece. Domluka and Duncan Ryder were mentioned and although they used first person, they managed to tell a fantastic story, a hell of a lot better than some authors who write in the third person.

 

IMO, DomLuka's 1st person POV stories are stronger than his 3rd person POV (half) story. It's not to say that ItFB is "worse" -- it just wasn't as absorbing when I read it. I'm pretty sure it's because I find DomLuka's greatest strengths to be the voice he uses for 1st person. You'll notice that, although each protagonists is definitely different, they all have a very similar voice, characterised by methodical elabortion of thoughts and feelings in a Henry-James-esque fashion, wry and understated humor, etc. Jumping into 3rd person made it harder to use this voice. It may also explain why he's stopped writing -- an outside, more "objective" voice is harder to maintain and liven. That's related to why people consider first person the "beginner's" POV, even though I agree with everyone who's pointed out how effectively first person can be used, and the numerous difficulties that belie this appellation.

[Duncan Ryder]

I think we just need to to be clear on what we mean when we say that 1st person is a "beginner's voice."

 

To me, it's just an observation... a lot of writer's begin writing their first fiction in first person. I think at least part of the reason for that might be because for a lot of us it's a natural next step. We often begin our fascination with the beauty and power of words by journalling...capturing our own stories and feelings and thoughts... I don't know how other people feel about this, but although I am somehow driven to do it anyway, I always feel...like a bit of a fraud when I sit down to write. Like how dare I think I can do this? What makes me think I really have something worth saying? But to go from journalling to writing a first person story...well, in some ways it seems like a logical next challenge... and so we take a leap and create a fictional character and capture thier story and feelings and thoughts...

 

To me, "beginners voice" in this observational sense should not be confused with "learners voice" -- something that, like training wheels, you discard as a child's tool once you know how to ride the bike. While many writers do indeed cut their teeth on first person, that says something about their growth as a writer, and not anything at all about the first person voice per se. It is not a voice only beginners use, or that writers only use as a beginner and then move on from there. It's not an easy voice, especially for a complex story line. It can in fact be an extremely challenging voice to use, and many brilliant works are done in first person.

 

Think about poetry. How many writers (me included) started by writing poetry. Hey, it's short! You just believe you can do it, that it's possilbe. But it is probably the most difficult literary form to do even mildly well.

 

As lots of people have said, you have to use the voice that works for the story you want to tell.

[Tiger]

To an extent, I agree about Dom Luka. Desert Dropping and The Ordinary Us were his best stories by far, and they were in 1st person. He really seems to capture the 1st-person perspective quite well. He's probably the best 1st-person author on GA. Hopefully, his muse will come back soon so that we can have more examples of his 1st-person supremacy.

[Cynical Romantic]

Sorry, I didn't mean to turn this into a specific story or author discussion, but since we're talking about Dom Luka, I have to say I disagree with both Duncan and Tiger - I thought that ITFB, his third-person PoV story, was his strongest writing yet. Don't get me wrong, the others were great, but ITFB was the story that made me go "damn, this dude can write!". There's just a level of sophistication to the characterization and the things both said and left unsaid that isn't matched in any of his first-person works, and it's a joy to read. (Another reason I really wish he'd return... we live in hope right?)

 

Back to the topic at hand, I think that Duncan is right about the reasons why many beginners automatically opt for first-person. It's an easier transition from journaling, and besides, a good number of the stories you read on sites like this one are actually highly autobiographical.

 

But to do first-person right is probably even more challenging than to write in omniscient third person. You see a lot of beginning writers struggle to give their first-person narrators a distinctive voice. It gets so that all of their characters sound like the same person - the narrator. In third person, you have the advantage of describing people through what they do and say and look like, but in first person, you also have to describe them by how they think and worry and rationalize.

 

Developing that unique thought process for so many different characters is really tough, and if you're going to make all your characters speak in your own voice anyway, you might as well be honest about it and become an omniscient narrator.

 

Just my $0.02.

[Tiff]

Hey Tiff, I actually hadn't read any of your work until now. But this comment made me curious so I've started reading JOMM. I'm not done yet but I'm enjoying it so far. I wouldn't call it "flawed" like you did, but I can definitely see how it could work as a third-person story. There are a lot of characters to switch between, and sometimes it seems like you're dying to play omniscient narrator and the first-person PoV is holding you back. Like you're begging to break free from it, you know? Anyway, I'm gonna keep reading, and I'll provide more comments regarding the PoV to follow once I've finished.

A lot of writers think alternating viewpoints is a big problem. Perhaps flawed was too strong a word, but it's not my strongest piece. Hence , I've broken out of my shell so to speak and have been experimenting. Sometimes when I read other stories with alternatin viewpoints, I get confused. Then with other stories it works well because the characters are so distinct. Nevertheless, this story is still close to my heart. But you are absolutely correct that I often felt limited and trapped.

 

 

IMO, DomLuka's 1st person POV stories are stronger than his 3rd person POV (half) story. It's not to say that ItFB is "worse" -- it just wasn't as absorbing when I read it. I'm pretty sure it's because I find DomLuka's greatest strengths to be the voice he uses for 1st person. You'll notice that, although each protagonists is definitely different, they all have a very similar voice, characterised by methodical elabortion of thoughts and feelings in a Henry-James-esque fashion, wry and understated humor, etc. Jumping into 3rd person made it harder to use this voice. It may also explain why he's stopped writing -- an outside, more "objective" voice is harder to maintain and liven. That's related to why people consider first person the "beginner's" POV, even though I agree with everyone who's pointed out how effectively first person can be used, and the numerous difficulties that belie this appellation.

Domluka is indeed a very strong first person POV author. One of his third person works wasn't too strong and it didn't have enough personality or emotion. It was just plain reading. However, his "ITFB" was much better and I think it was the way he wrote it. The characters were very different, and the things he omitted from the readers enhanced the interest and plot in unique ways.

 

Having said that I feel an author, regardless of their writing history/background/skills, can choose to do first person or third. And it's success depends on how they manipulate the story. The POV doesn't necessarily make one piece better than the other. I think some authors just have an easier time with a specific style, but are able to create something equally as wonderful. True some authors who utilize first person are beginners and they work on a step-by-step process, but not every writer starts out that way.

 

A personal note to Corvus, both his third person and new first person series are amazing, showing that if an author can write well, it doesn't matter which they choose. Mike and Winston protrayed so much emotion in third. Dismantle the Sun in first allows us to see into the main character's ahead and enjoy his thoughts and feelings. Great reads.

 

Ok, I hope I didn't talk in circles. If I did, I apologize. :wacko:

[Tiger]

Currently, I am working on the sequel to Dark Earth in 3rd, but I also started working on a romance story in 1st. I like both for their own reasons. I comes down to two issues. The first issue is what POV fits the story. The other is what the author is comfortable with. For instance, I am unlikely to write a story in 2nd person, because I don't feel that it fits my style or the stories I generally write.

[Tiff]

Currently, I am working on the sequel to Dark Earth in 3rd, but I also started working on a romance story in 1st. I like both for their own reasons. I comes down to two issues. The first issue is what POV fits the story. The other is what the author is comfortable with. For instance, I am unlikely to write a story in 2nd person, because I don't feel that it fits my style or the stories I generally write.

But how do you know which POV fits what story? Or is it a personal preference? I ask this because when I start something new, I don't automatically know which one to write in--1st or 3rd.

 

Does 1st allow more emotion, or can 3rd be equally telling depending on how the author portrays the character and their issues? I think someone mentioned that 1st is more intimate.

 

Libby Drew writes in the third and her latest story Between Lives, she packs so much emotion in very few words and sentences. I think it depends more on the word choice and how the sentence is formed.

[Graeme]

But how do you know which POV fits what story? Or is it a personal preference? I ask this because when I start something new, I don't automatically know which one to write in--1st or 3rd.

It is partially personal preference and partially what will suit the story. Third person is suitable for almost all stories, because third person limited is just a short step removed from 1st person. Rotating third person limited is like alternating first person, but without any confusion about who "I" is, because you don't use "I".

 

There are certain styles of stories where 1st person is well suited. Having a single main protagonist is, I think, a key requirement. If the story is psychological in nature (such as a coming of age type story), or if you want to restrict the readers to what the character knows (such as a mystery story), then 1st person is a good choice. You can do them as third person, too, but first person is a definite option.

 

If you don't have a single main protagonist, then I would advise against first person. Just my view