Small town vs. Big metro area

[Andrew Q Gordon]

For those of you who read my blog, you know the partner and I are trying to have a kid - with a bit of luck we will know next Friday if the surrogate is pregnant. With that in mind, we are using our vacations to check out different place to live. There is nothing wrong with the DC area if you like high crime, too much congestion, high cost of living and hit or miss schools. [in fairness there are a lot of good things to recommend it, VERY accepting, great cultural events, good amenities, many interesting sites, good employment opportunities among other things]. Our biggest issues are schools, safe environment and acceptance.

 

On the one hand, we would not be the only same sex couple in our area - not even on our street for that matter. Our kid might be the only in their class to have two dads [or two moms] but they wouldn't be the only person they knew. The level of acceptance is very high where we live. Unfortunately the school system is sub-par after elementary school. There is NO way in hell I will send my kid to the middle school and high school in our boundaries. Then there is the level of gang activity, crime, and assaults in the area. It is not an easy place for a kid to navigate - certainly not impossible by any means, but not the experience our parents gave me and my other half.

 

Looking at small towns, they have few of the negatives our metro area has but we worry about the lack of acceptance. The less urban, the less chance they have experienced a small sex couple with kids. It's hard enough being a kid with adding being harassed for being the one with two gay dads.

 

Before we can move anywhere, we need to see where we are going. So we are undertaking the 'Great Investigation' across America to find the right place to move.

 

Anyone have any experience either as a same sex couple with kids or the friend of someone with same sex parents? Or just have an opinion on the issue [i am sure there are a few of you out there.]

 

Thanks

 

Andy

[AnytaSunday]

Just a quick question--why do you want to move to a smaller town? That didn't come across for me in this message.

 

I mean this as in opposed to another city with say, less crime and better schools.

[Andrew Q Gordon]

For me, and well us, the whole small town feel, walk down main street, know the shop keepers, know you neighbors, slow pace of life - are all attractive, That and small towns are less prone to the same high crime that any city has - it is more an economic issue really. Small towns lack good - if any - public transportation, making it harder for people to move without a job and/or transportation. It limits growth and/or migration keeping things more stable.

 

That is just my 'un-edumacted' opinion.

 

That and I grew up in a small town, where I rode my bike to the corner deli, walked to school, played basketball until dark on the street, ran around with my friends without my parents worried about where we were or what might happen to us. So it brings back good memories that I probably can't recreate for my kids no matter how I try, but still want to try.

[option]

fyi: im not american

 

 

Are you not basing a lot of this on generalisations?

eg; the idea that a city may be more accepting than a small town, yet a town in a state that allows same-sex marriage etc could well be more accepting than a city in a state that either disallows it or explicitly makes it unavailable.

 

Hasnt Walmart destroyed small town america?

 

 

Also, what of the childs needs, that you wont know about until theyre born, or even later?

They may have a disability, & the resources available are likely to be greater in a city.

 

In terms of education, things change over time.

They wouldnt be starting school for 4/5 years, & middle-school for 11 years. Schools could, & do, radically change in those time periods.

A small town may have no choice of schools, whereas a city does.

 

 

 

Personally, I think for a small child, town/countryside is a good environment to grow up in, then as they become teenagers, the extra resources & variety of a city are better for them.

I suppose the ideal is somewhere between the two, a town with good transport links to a city, or a city with easy access to countryside etc.

[DragonMando]

A bit of a warning...please, please, PLEASE don't move to a small town. I grew up in small towns and rural areas and I've resented my parents my whole life for the lack of opportunities for everything. People in small towns tend to be pricks about everything from how you talk and walk to your clothes to even having the wrong personality or not having a big enough tractor. On top of that, when I got older and started looking for work, there's NOTHING. Two weeks twice a summer for hay baling crews, but that's it for jobs where I live, unless you're 6'3" and 200 pounds of muscle, then you might make it 14 weeks a year as a logger.

 

A small to mid-sized city would be my recommendation. Something big enough that there's opportunity for them to be social and get a job when they're older, but small enough that the crime rates are still down. Something with a population in the mid-tens of thousands is massive around here, but I know a lot of you guys probably think 40-60k is tiny. It's still enough that everything is there if you look, but not so big that it's easy to drown.

[Andrew Q Gordon]

A small to mid-sized city would be my recommendation. Something big enough that there's opportunity for them to be social and get a job when they're older, but small enough that the crime rates are still down. Something with a population in the mid-tens of thousands is massive around here, but I know a lot of you guys probably think 40-60k is tiny. It's still enough that everything is there if you look, but not so big that it's easy to drown.

 

I am not sure where you are talking about but I am looking at towns an hour or so from DC or Philly that keep their small town feel but are close enough to civilization. That said, you raise a valid point. One of the other options we are exploring is just what you suggest, a smallish city somewhere, preferably one with a large university. At the risk of sounding too much like a snobby prick, summer/part time work won't be a consideration in that we have the means to make up for any lack of employment if it means a better childhood/school experience.

 

Thanks for weighing in, your perspective is now factored in the equation.

[Andrew Q Gordon]

Are you not basing a lot of this on generalisations?

eg; the idea that a city may be more accepting than a small town, yet a town in a state that allows same-sex marriage etc could well be more accepting than a city in a state that either disallows it or explicitly makes it unavailable.

 

 

Small towns, even in accepting places/state tend to be way more conservative and less accepting. I know this from personal experience. The more rural a place, the less accepting of gay people they tend to be. Totally a generalization but there is some validity in them as well.

 

Hasnt Walmart destroyed small town america?

 

 

Depends on where you go. There are not many big box stores on Maryland' Eastern Shore for example but they are everywhere in the Mid to Western rural areas.

 

 

Also, what of the childs needs, that you wont know about until theyre born, or even later?

They may have a disability, & the resources available are likely to be greater in a city.

 

Any move won't happen until after they are born but before school starts if we decide to move.

 

 

In terms of education, things change over time.

They wouldnt be starting school for 4/5 years, & middle-school for 11 years. Schools could, & do, radically change in those time periods.

A small town may have no choice of schools, whereas a city does.

 

All good points but I think schools don't improve near as much unless demographics change. Engaged parents lead to better students and school That kind of change takes decades not years. On the other hand, as you suggest, smaller school district would have few resources and few opportunities.

 

Personally, I think for a small child, town/countryside is a good environment to grow up in, then as they become teenagers, the extra resources & variety of a city are better for them.

I suppose the ideal is somewhere between the two, a town with good transport links to a city, or a city with easy access to countryside etc.

 

In other words there are no easy answers

 

Thanks for weighing in, you do raise things we didn't think about.

 

Andy

[methodwriter85]

This might sound rude, but what sort of budget are you looking at? There are some really nice towns in this mid-Atlantic area, but they can get pretty pricey. I might be able to give you some guesses, but I'd be able to give you better ones if I knew what sort of money you are willling to drop on a house.

[rec]

I suggest you call the principals of the middle and high schools to ask them about your situation. You might as well be direct. Then, you will need to assess whether or not the principals are following the PC response requirement or express a true belief--one way or the other.

[Andrew Q Gordon]

This might sound rude, but what sort of budget are you looking at? There are some really nice towns in this mid-Atlantic area, but they can get pretty pricey. I might be able to give you some guesses, but I'd be able to give you better ones if I knew what sort of money you are willling to drop on a house.

 

rather not discuss budget on a public forum, but assume we r not buying a McMansion nor r we living in a trailer. Living in DC we shouldn't be priced out of many areas.

[Mark Arbour]

This might sound rude, but what sort of budget are you looking at? There are some really nice towns in this mid-Atlantic area, but they can get pretty pricey. I might be able to give you some guesses, but I'd be able to give you better ones if I knew what sort of money you are willling to drop on a house.

 

What are you? A f**king realtor?

 

[methodwriter85]

What are you? A f**king realtor?

 

I spent my summer temping with Stefan, don't you remember?;-) Nah, but seriously, I watch a lot of realty shows, and I'm from the Philly metro area.

 

rather not discuss budget on a public forum, but assume we r not buying a McMansion nor r we living in a trailer. Living in DC we shouldn't be priced out of many areas.

 

Alright, so I'm not directing you to Villanova or Greenville, but I'm also not directing you to Chester or Claymont. I think the thing is, it's really hard to find a vibrandt, liberal, walkabe, small-town that has a large college and has a good school district, and at the same time is not outrageously expensive, when it comes to the Philly or DC metro area. I'm going to be level and tell you that I think it might be really, really hard to find that kind of area.

 

In terms of medium-sized college towns, Newark in Delaware has some pretty good upsides. Yes, you get the rowdy college kids, but when you get further away from the campus and into the nice developments, they're not as much of an issue. I had friends who grew up there, and they would ride their bikes into the Downtown, which has some pretty nice resturants and a various of shops. You can walk just about anywhere, It's a pretty liberal town, and I don't think a kid with two gay parents would get that much crap from people. You also have the amenity of a nice state park, and while there isn't a Broadway, the University of Delaware has a pretty top-notch school theater that offers good productions at cheap prices. Also, it's a not a bad commute to Philadelphia if you want to taste a big city every once in awhile. The problem is, since we're talking Delaware, the public high schools aren't that good, and you'd have to send your kids to a private or a charter or a magnet school, most likely. But since you"re talking about an area that's cheaper than DC Metro, and has low taxes, it wouldn't be much of an issue. Pike Creek and Hockessin are also in that area, and they're pretty nice, but they don't really have a downtown- they're more suburbs.

 

You could look around Delaware County, which is the site of the famed-Mainline. There are other, not-as-outrageously-expensive areas in that county that still have some pretty good schools, like Unionville-Chadds Ford. It's a bit of a Republican stronghold, but I doubt you're going to see that much homophobia in a Philly metro town. I also recomend looking at Doylestown, PA and the general Bucks County area, which apparently has a strong art scene going on. Montgomery County is also nice- it was named one of the best places to raise a family.

 

Suburban Philadelphia can be pretty damn nice without being Mainline-expensive, and at the same time there's a pretty lively gay community in Philly. There's also a ton of Universities in Philly Metro, so I'd give it a shot!

 

BTW, I watched an episode of House Hunters set in Alexandria, VA. Damn, that place is expensive!

Edited August 27, 2010 by methodwriter85

[Bumblebee]

now im not american, but if you live just out of the city - say in the suburbs, then you could still have the city close by, but the "small town" attmosphere that you want

 

where i live, you can take a bus to the train station, then a train to the city all in under an hour, yet because the primary and high schools are in the same suburb, all the kids grew up together and everyone knows everyone

 

plus when your kid gets older, they would want to see friends, and go to big shopping centres with friends and eat crappy food..... with friends

 

but remember that you have to live there to, so even if whatever place you find has everything, except that no one accepts you and your partner

 

 

[Andrew Q Gordon]

now im not american, but if you live just out of the city - say in the suburbs, then you could still have the city close by, but the "small town" attmosphere that you want

 

where i live, you can take a bus to the train station, then a train to the city all in under an hour, yet because the primary and high schools are in the same suburb, all the kids grew up together and everyone knows everyone

 

plus when your kid gets older, they would want to see friends, and go to big shopping centres with friends and eat crappy food..... with friends

 

but remember that you have to live there to, so even if whatever place you find has everything, except that no one accepts you and your partner

 

 

 

Thanks for this - it is really very helpful keeping in mind the views of those younger than we are. What we might think is so great might end up hell for the kids.

 

Oh and what's with the change of name? Change of scenery?

[Andrew Q Gordon]

 

Suburban Philadelphia can be pretty damn nice without being Mainline-expensive, and at the same time there's a pretty lively gay community in Philly. There's also a ton of Universities in Philly Metro, so I'd give it a shot!

 

Lived there for a time, won't say where exactly but I could walk to campus to watch the Cats play as a kid. My brother is in Delco so I know the area well. We are definitely considering moving back but want to explore other options.

 

BTW, I watched an episode of House Hunters set in Alexandria, VA. Damn, that place is expensive!

 

You have no idea - and Alexandria isn't the most expensive place either. Our old house on Cap hill in a transitioning area that was 9 rooms big - plus 2.5 bathrooms - just sold for 800K - crazy talk I know. :wacko:

 

Thanks for the input, we never thought too much able Delaware, but it is something to consider.

[option]

Lived there for a time, won't say where exactly but I could walk to campus to watch the Cats play as a kid. My brother is in Delco so I know the area well. We are definitely considering moving back but want to explore other options.

 

If youve lived there before, & have family in the area, you wouldnt be such an outsider/newcomer.

 

 

I dont know if one exists, but is there a gay parents group/org?

If so, their members will have experience of what your doing.

[hh5]

Just be aware of the schools - they may say they are good but if the place is boring for your kid and secretly there is drugs in the schools then that's not place to raise a kid

if the kids there got nothing better to do then get into things - bad things drugs, drinking, smoking ... etc - no ethics or morality

 

Sounds like inner city kids in big city sometimes

 

there is a hidden picture that must be uncovered - I live in NYC limits - nothing to do - city life no good - then again it was sort suburbs

manhattan - would be too much a bad thing vs good thing - unless your upscale rich - private schools and stuff

[JamesSavik]

I'd rather live in a small town an hour away from a big town.

 

That way you can use the amenities of the big town and leave the crack heads behind at the city limits.

[jon-jon]

Might I suggest Columbia, MD? It is a "planned" community with a collection of small houseing enclaves, good schools, diverse population, "big" shopping and "small" shopping and convenient to Wash. DC and Baltimore. More liberal than an older small town/city. If it comes off as too rural you might also consider Baltimore itself. Definately a size down from DC, but still a "city" with a punch. Crime is high and the schools are so-so but improving; but houseing prices are lower. Frederick, MD is another possibility. Can't help you with VA - unfamiliar territory.

 

I found when I moved to PA from Baltimore, that older small towns, while having the quaint main street, etc. they also have the quaint conservative attitudes. The old "you aren't from here unless you were born here" attitude. They also tend to socialize around their churches - not something welcomeing to gays.

 

Good luck with the new family.

[PrivateTim]

Looking for areas that are within an hour of Philly or DC, I am not sure you'll really get "small town" the same way you might in Wyoming or Iowa or even CO when the nearest big city is three hours away.

 

If it was me, I'd move to Annapolis in a heart beat, maybe Fairfax or Oakton.

 

You will get away from crime, not necessarily congestion, but you will find pretty enlightened people too.

[Andrew Q Gordon]

Looking for areas that are within an hour of Philly or DC, I am not sure you'll really get "small town" the same way you might in Wyoming or Iowa or even CO when the nearest big city is three hours away.

 

If it was me, I'd move to Annapolis in a heart beat, maybe Fairfax or Oakton.

 

You will get away from crime, not necessarily congestion, but you will find pretty enlightened people too.

 

This post sort of morphed into recommendations vs. what people think the merits of either are but its all good.

 

Tim - I am barely willing to set foot in Virginia and will NEVER live there again. I lived in Arlington - a wonderful place to live if you are straight - but we moved when VA passed the constitutional amendment saying gays are second class citizens in the "great' commonwealth of hate - er - Virginia. Sorry if this sounds angry, it is not directed at you by no means, but lord I have a deep anger with VA and it's voters.

 

Annapolis is nice, as is the Eastern Shore, some great small towns on the other side of the Bay

[Mark Arbour]

This post sort of morphed into recommendations vs. what people think the merits of either are but its all good.

 

Tim - I am barely willing to set foot in Virginia and will NEVER live there again. I lived in Arlington - a wonderful place to live if you are straight - but we moved when VA passed the constitutional amendment saying gays are second class citizens in the "great' commonwealth of hate - er - Virginia. Sorry if this sounds angry, it is not directed at you by no means, but lord I have a deep anger with VA and it's voters.

 

Annapolis is nice, as is the Eastern Shore, some great small towns on the other side of the Bay

 

You ventured into the South, and you were surprised they hate gays?

[Andrew Q Gordon]

You ventured into the South, and you were surprised they hate gays?

 

Mark,

 

To be clear, moving to VA was the BF's recommendation, I always thought it would be unfriendly - but Arlington was different, they elected an openly gay county commissioner, passed domestic partnership benefits for county employees [the state over turned those somehow], and by and large the county and immediate area was generally very gay friendly. So we were a bit surprised - though in hindsight we shouldn't have been - when they state passed the Amendment.

 

But even if we were not surprised, we were still angry - probably irrational given the circumstances but we voted with our feet and are not unhappy we did.

[jon-jon]

This is an odyssey in the making. You guys should start a blog and document your travels through the mid-atlantic states in your search for a new home. Sort of a mid-atlantic travel guide for gays.

 

But you are right, you did ask for the merits of small town vs. big city. So, in as much as your kid is going to be the most important thing here (as parents your stuff automaticly goes to the end of the line), I guess you should think like a kid and try to imagine what they would want. So, young kid = stuffed animals, playgrounds, other kids, school, solid home life, good parents, safety, healthy invironment, back yard swings, low stress levels, etc. Looks like small town/suburbs/track developement/rural would win out over city. Remember, if you stay within the mid-atlantic area, you won't be far from a city - few hours drive at most. So you can probably get the best of both worlds.

 

My family originated on the eastern shore of MD, and I have to admit it is pretty country. Unforntunately, I can't speak for the attitudes of the folks. The shore tends to vote conservative. Maybe you should check out Chestertown, MD. It's a college town which is always a good thing. But there I go again with recommendations over merits . . . !

[Andrew Q Gordon]

Jon,

 

Was actually in Chestertown on Friday, very cool town, small for sure but nice. I really like the Eastern Shore, most folks couldn't care less if you are gay or not, seems there are more than a few in St. Michaels/Easton/Oxford as well as Chestertown. The issue is work - for me, the BF works at home, and schools. We are still exploring a ton so no decision is close.

 

Thanks for the input, appreciate it.

 

Andy