Is College Worth It?

[MikeL]

The Associated Press has an interesting article out today titled Student tracking finds limited learning in college. I know there is a significant difference among colleges. There are top flight institutions in the US which really challenge students in critical thinking, complex reasoning, and articulate writing. But a recent study discloses that 45% of undergraduate students show no significant improvement in these skills beyond the level reached at the time they graduated from high school.

 

One problem is that students just aren't asked to do much, according to findings in a new book, "Academically Adrift: Limited Learning on College Campuses." Half of students did not take a single course requiring 20 pages of writing during their prior semester, and one-third did not take a single course requiring even 40 pages of reading per week.

 

I see examples of poor language skills everyday. They can be seen here at GA, in your local newspaper, and in radio and television newscasts. People who have the greatest influence on how we use the language regularly say "snuck" instead of "sneaked", "bust" when they should say "burst", and "less" when referring to numbers rather than "fewer".

 

And, what is the value of a college degree in a person's adult life? That's a hard question to grapple with during times of economic distress and high unemployment. College enrollments are mushrooming at a time when many institutions, especially state universities, are hurting for the necessary funding. The lack of jobs for high school graduates and state lottery scholarships are prompting college enrollments.

 

I have to look no further than my own family for examples that call the value of a college education into doubt. One son has a master's degree, but drives a delivery truck. One of his brothers, with less than two years of college credit is a well-paid sales executive with a prominent company. My own father rose to a prominent place in local government service without ever attending a single college class.

 

My answer to the question I have posed is yes. A college education is worth the time and effort. Just make sure you select the best college you can possibly afford. Enroll in honors programs and foreign study opportunities and make the most of every class. Be socially active, be involved in campus life, and take part in political activities if they appeal to you. Just make sure you make the most of the education opportunities you have. Don't expect the professors to do more than their share, but do hold them to a high standard.

[Rilbur]

#include stdio

using namespace std;

 

int main(void)

{

cout << "Hello World!";

}

 

 

My vote is that my degree is certainly advancing my skill set!

 

That said, I have definitely taken classes that I'd rather have skipped for all the good they've done me... (Hell, I'm retaking one of them right now just because there's a new teacher who might actually teach me the shit I took that class to learn!)

 

Edit:

 

My perspective may be skewed. Fact is, I actually learned how to write in High School, and took a 'real' writing course my freshman year, and I haven't needed to work on my writing skills -- in a technical sense -- since. (In a story-writing sense, oh boy am I still working, but that don't count, no siree!)

 

Also, I'd like to point out that 'snuck' is entering the language, whether the high-and-mighty professors who are the gatekeepers of 'properness' like it not. Just like alot of other words, and ain't it a shame?

Edited January 19, 2011 by Rilbur

[MikeL]

#include stdio

using namespace std;

 

int main(void)

{

cout << "Hello World!";

}

 

?

[Cyhort]

I see examples of poor language skills everyday. They can be seen here at GA, in your local newspaper, and in radio and television newscasts. People who have the greatest influence on how we use the language regularly say "snuck" instead of "sneaked", "bust" when they should say "burst", and "less" when referring to numbers rather than "fewer".

 

 

 

You don't need to go to college to learn how to speak properly. This type of thing should be taught in high school English class instead of making kids read so called "great literature" as a substitute for teaching. Basic grammar isn't reinforced nearly as well as it should be in middle and high school but that's what happens when you teach kids to pass tests instead of how to use the lessons in everyday life.

 

Ok I need to stop before I go on a rant. God I hate public education in this country!

[Daisy139]

It depends - my degree didn't teach me anything I couldn't have taught myself by simply picking up a book (and most of the stuff I did in GenEd classes honestly was bogus - my college wasn't the best I guess); on the other hand it enabled me to start grad school which will hopefully be worth it, so in that sense, yes, college was worth it.

[TetRefine]

Yes, college is worth the cost because of several reasons:

 

1.) It is very hard to get any kind of job without a bachelor's degree. Unless you want to go into the military, be a plumber or electrician (both well paying), or be stuck working construction or other types of strenuous, low-paying jobs, you need a degree.

 

2.) You meet tons of people and are exposed to all different kinds of people and ideas that you would probably not be exposed to. If anything, it makes you question and/or reinforce your beliefs that you came in with. Also, you meet tons of great friends and have wild weekend parties.

 

3.) You get to be part of a small group in American society that posses a completion of higher education.

 

So yes, if you can afford it, college is very much worth it.

 

Edit: Also, getting a communications, philosophy, psych (with no plans of grad school), or English literature degrees would simply be wasting your time unless you plan on getting a Ph.D and becoming a professor.

Edited January 20, 2011 by TetRefine

[JamesSavik]

It all depends on why you go.

 

If you go for the fraternity experience, major in jerking off and minor in smoking dope, the answer would be NO.

 

If you go for a REAL DEGREE like engineering, computer science, Bio, Chem, Physics, Mathematics, etc- then it is well worth it.

[DragonMando]

Yes, college is wholly worth it. However, I have some stuff to point out about my beliefs on college versus highschool.

 

1. It is not college's job to teach language and grammar skills. These are both things that should be completed by the time highschool is finished, unfortunately, that is not so because education is so lax in the US that it fails in its most basic purpose: to take the illiterate and make them literate, in both words and numbers (math).

 

2. If one has not learned the basics of language by the time they reach college, they should be penalized for it, but still, it is not the job of the college to teach what the student should already know. Lower grades, people, not more remedial classes.

 

3. The main purpose of highschool is to teach the basics of how to get by in our world. It no longer does that. That means highschools need revamping, not colleges dumbed down.

 

4. The main purpose of college is to take the knowledge a student should already have and teach them how to apply it best as well as open them up to new ideas and philosophies.

 

5. Sadly, in this time in the economy, most people won't even give you a second glance if you don't have a degree, even if you're only applying to flip burgers. You've got to have the best you can just to survive, it seems.

 

Also, no Mickey Mouse degrees, guys. They don't do snot in the real world and only one in a hundred people with those degrees (if that) will ever get employed in anything remotely similar to their field. It's because of realizing that Graphic Design was, in essence, one such degree that I now am majorless. Again. Yay back to square one.

 

Forgive me for any repetitiveness, please, I'm too tired to read through. I can't even remember what I wrote as it is.

Edited January 20, 2011 by DragonMando

[Y_B]

It all depends on why you go.

 

If you go for the fraternity experience, major in jerking off and minor in smoking dope, the answer would be NO.

 

If you go for a REAL DEGREE like engineering, computer science, Bio, Chem, Physics, Mathematics, etc- then it is well worth it.

 

Singling one part of the college experience out isn't fair. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts and speaking from personal experiences, I wouldn't leave out anything I do.

 

To answer the questions. Yes and no. Nothing has intrinsic value, you take from something what you want from it and decide whether or not it was worth your time. College has a lot more to offer than to strictly teach you materials that you will most likely not use. The importance of education isn't specific facts or knowledge but to think. The professor who is able to get his students to regurgitate the textbook has fails whereas the professor who taught his students to think succeeds. Of course, no one can force one to do something he or she has no intention or aptitude of doing but the opportunity is there. College is all about opportunities, taken or passed. To me, it's not an experience that can be found anywhere else or most enjoyed at any other time than young adulthood. I'm sorry, GDIs can argue all they want, but the fraternity life is not a waste of time/money and my time with mine is much appreciated. Mike can vouch. In any case, the whole experience of college is priceless to me and I gladly pay for the expenses I cover.

[Tipdin]

Timely topic, I am about to graduate, (again).

 

College has a an artificial importance. Studies show that college graduates, leaving with a Bachelor's degree are ALMOST as well educated as a typical high school graduate of the 1950s.

 

Sadly, prospective employers look for a college degree, ANY degree, as a magic pass. So without a college degree, you're chances of being considered for a position are dramatically reduced.

 

Nearly 80% of those with a 4-year degree DO NOT work in the field for which they hold a degree. Nearly 60% of students using the Internet for online learning, fail to obtain a degree.

 

I had over 30 years experience in business administration when I applied for a secretarial position at a major company, near where I live. I did not have to required qualifications. I type 60 words a minute, have designed, built and maintained websites, owned several businesses for which I did all the bookkeeping and staffing, along with all the other aspects of running the show. But I did not have any college degree.

 

When I retied, I never expected health insurance costs to rise so dramatically, but I figured getting a simple little office-boy job would be a snap. Nobody would even talk to me!

 

I've spent the last two years getting a business administration degree. What a joke! Ninety percent of the crap I had to deal with in college was fluff and filler, just so they could charge $450.00 a credit. I challenged my instructors and went up against the Deen, herself. I tested out of half the classes, (for a price) but had to suffer through such COMPLETE and utter B.S. in many other classes. Some of the kids teaching the classes were not even as old as the number of years of my experience!

 

College has an artificial importance. I went to classes with kids that couldn't speak a full sentence in English - correctly - if it meant saving their life. Never mind diagraming one! Penmanship for these kids was at a first grade level, and forget arithmetic. Oral presentations were downright embarrassing, some kids could barely read. How did they get into college?

 

College is a joke. Especially now that so much of it is going online. I fear for the future. (But now that I am nearing the finish line, the college(!) asked me to be a instructor - in the tutoring lab!)

Edited February 12, 2011 by Tipdin

[Rilbur]

I went to classes with kids that couldn't speak a full sentence in English - correctly - if it meant saving their life. Never mind diagraming one!

 

I should point out that I couldn't diagram a sentence properly if my life depended on it. I understand the basics, but I just never picked up the skill.

 

That said, I certainly understand your point -- high school education has gotten incredibly watered down in many areas, though I'd like to point out that some of them, like penmanship, are a skill of diminishing importance. Fact is, computers are taking over, and typing is a far more valuable skill. With the advent of 'texting' developing the ability of people to function without a full keyboard, I'd expect to see typing-based skills to become vastly more important than they are now, to the degree where they obliviate the need to write out by hand in most situations, and unlike arithmetic where you need to understand the operations to get best use out of a calculator, handwriting really will be a stone age skill with no importance to the modern lifestyle. In fact, I'd like to see the time spent on it reduced, in favor of general computer classes. The fact is, no one with a modern education should fail to recognize a 'Hello World' program, or understand what it means. (It's the most basic program possible, and is the introductory point for virtually any computer language. If a programming book doesn't start with 'hello world', DON'T BUY IT.)

 

 

 

That said, I'd like to reiterate that not all degrees are fluff. Go get a math degree instead of a business one. Or a computer science one like I am. The snipped of C++ I used above is something you're expected to understand by the end of the first 'real' day of class in a programming class. You won't understand all the details, but you'll understand the basics, and be able to work with it. Maybe you should recognize it before you even get to class -- I'd certainly urge schools to increase their computer-based education, and I'm not talking about word-processing-for-idiots!

[Mark Arbour]

I think the question isn't relevant to the assessment criteria (and that's not a slam at you Mike.)

 

College isn't about what you learn, it's about learning who you are, discovering things you didn't know about, and growing as a person. It's about learning how to do critical thinking. It's about being able to divine the difference between fact and opinion. It's about being exposed to things like archaeology, Chaucer, the Franco-Prussian War, and the Beatnik movement, because even though you could have picked up books on that stuff, you wouldn't have. It's about going to parties and getting drunk and/or high and getting laid. A lot.

 

And when you come out, it's not about whether you can recite the periodic table, it's about the person you are.

 

Now, that's the abstract answer. Matt hit the nail on the head from a practical standpoint. An undergraduate degree is like a union card in the 50's. It opens the door to opportunity and removes a glass ceiling.

[Mark Arbour]

I should point out that I couldn't diagram a sentence properly if my life depended on it. I understand the basics, but I just never picked up the skill.

 

That said, I certainly understand your point -- high school education has gotten incredibly watered down in many areas, though I'd like to point out that some of them, like penmanship, are a skill of diminishing importance. Fact is, computers are taking over, and typing is a far more valuable skill. With the advent of 'texting' developing the ability of people to function without a full keyboard, I'd expect to see typing-based skills to become vastly more important than they are now, to the degree where they obliviate the need to write out by hand in most situations, and unlike arithmetic where you need to understand the operations to get best use out of a calculator, handwriting really will be a stone age skill with no importance to the modern lifestyle. In fact, I'd like to see the time spent on it reduced, in favor of general computer classes. The fact is, no one with a modern education should fail to recognize a 'Hello World' program, or understand what it means. (It's the most basic program possible, and is the introductory point for virtually any computer language. If a programming book doesn't start with 'hello world', DON'T BUY IT.)

 

 

 

That said, I'd like to reiterate that not all degrees are fluff. Go get a math degree instead of a business one. Or a computer science one like I am. The snipped of C++ I used above is something you're expected to understand by the end of the first 'real' day of class in a programming class. You won't understand all the details, but you'll understand the basics, and be able to work with it. Maybe you should recognize it before you even get to class -- I'd certainly urge schools to increase their computer-based education, and I'm not talking about word-processing-for-idiots!

 

Yeah, a computer programming degree, now that's a blast. Those guys get together with the accounting majors and really have some massive blowout parties.

[Bumblebee]

I see examples of poor language skills everyday. They can be seen here at GA, in your local newspaper, and in radio and television newscasts. People who have the greatest influence on how we use the language regularly say "snuck" instead of "sneaked", "bust" when they should say "burst", and "less" when referring to numbers rather than "fewer".

 

 

 

I was actually taught to speak/write in Primary school.

 

For me college was a joke, I knew more then the instructors, which is why I passed after coming in halfway though the course.

 

The commute was over 2hrs long on public transport is i missed a train, I lost thousands of dollars because I could only work 10hrs a week for 3 months.

I didn't learn anything and I didn't make friends because everyone was all snobby.

 

And it won't help me get a job because most of the jobs i will go for in the horse industry rely on word of mouth to get the job and how good you actually are not your qualifications.

[Krista]

A lot of the General Education that we waste time with for two years or a year and a half - we can learn AND do learn in High School. I think, since we're losing ground in Math and Science, we need to phase out the History/Government and the Social Sciences.. make it more about the area of studies. High School English, Math, and Science is a big problem and all of that follows students into college.

 

I hated that I wasted 2 years taking classes and learning the same things that I learned in High School... although it helped me maintain a 4.0 that got me into the Physical Therapy programs.

[Jack Frost]

I see examples of poor language skills everyday. They can be seen here at GA, in your local newspaper, and in radio and television newscasts. People who have the greatest influence on how we use the language regularly say "snuck" instead of "sneaked", "bust" when they should say "burst", and "less" when referring to numbers rather than "fewer".

What's wrong with those (maybe except with the term "bust" for "burst")? It's called linguistic evolution and it's always ongoing even we don't notice that much. Just saying that this is a poor example for a language freak like me as they aren't hallmark of "poor education".

[Rilbur]

[qoute] I think, since we're losing ground in Math and Science, we need to phase out the History/Government and the Social Sciences.. make it more about the area of studies.

 

Lets not. Do you really want more people who think impeachment is throwing peaches at the president, or that it actually means removing him from office completely? How about people who don't know what Rome was, much less Carthage? Hell, who don't know who the puritans were, and how they f**ked our country up royally. (OK, so the latter part is PURE OPINION). How about more people who think Abraham Lincoln was black?

 

We need to buckle down and understand that learning is work, and that it's work no one is going to do unless society and their elders makes them do it, makes them understand how important the acquisition and use of knowledge is important and that they are darned well expected to do it.

 

Which starts, frankly, by tearing down the 'no child left behind' standards in favor of something more realistic. Not everyone can be educated to the same level, so your goal should be to educate the greatest number of people to the greatest standard possible, not dumbing everyone down to the lowest common denominator.

[mr.chris]

yes. yes it is

[Tipdin]

Many well made points. Some college work is damn tough and deserves to be treated with reverence. I bow to ANY mathematician!

 

I must disagree with some statements however. I think that penmanship is still important. Not AS important as it once was, but still somewhat important. If you need to print or write, you should know HOW to print or write - and that includes spelling. I liken it to doing math.

 

Calculators are great and have saved my butt a million times, (and probably that much money too)! However...without a calculator, I couldn't add 1 plus 1. I have no clue how to figure a percentage without my beloved calculator. And I wouldn't be able to make change as a cashier to save my life. The machines do all the thinking for us. And that's part of the problem. We are so machine dependent now that most of us CAN'T make change, or figure percentages, or square roots without the machine.

 

People still need to write for all sorts of reasons. One should be ABLE to write in such a manner that others can read it. One should not have to depend on the cash register to tell us how much change to give back.

 

Now, I admit, that I can't make change - I have never conquered the language of Arithmetic. It might as well be Mandarin, or Arabic - for all I would know. So I am not condemning anyone for anything. I am simply asserting that we humans should be able to things like write, speak, and calculate to some degree without the help of machines.

 

Being that we live in an age of machinery, however, I agree that computer basics, such as language and programming should also be incorporated into school curriculum.

[Kavrik]

FACT: People that go to college would have thought the above situation out better.

[Rilbur]

I must disagree with some statements however. I think that penmanship is still important. Not AS important as it once was, but still somewhat important. If you need to print or write, you should know HOW to print or write - and that includes spelling. I liken it to doing math.

 

Calculators are great and have saved my butt a million times, (and probably that much money too)! However...without a calculator, I couldn't add 1 plus 1. I have no clue how to figure a percentage without my beloved calculator. And I wouldn't be able to make change as a cashier to save my life. The machines do all the thinking for us. And that's part of the problem. We are so machine dependent now that most of us CAN'T make change, or figure percentages, or square roots without the machine.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't see the connection between the two. Lets break this down part by part.

 

Spelling and printing aren't part of penmanship. Penmanship is the absurdity of asking students to learn and practice a second script -- cursive -- that has little relation to the primary script -- printed text -- that they are expected to learn. Cursive made sense once because it's quicker to write with, but in the modern era there is little to no point. I can type as fast as most people can speak, and I can type far faster than even the best hand writer can manage in cursive. Learning to write in print is a basic, grade-school level task that I wouldn't expect to last past 3rd or 4th grade, about the time typing takes over. Spelling would remain just as important as ever.

 

Arithmetic on the other hand is important because it's a fundamental building block to types of higher math. If you don't understand addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division you can't hope to learn fractions, algebra, trig, calculus... Each layer of math is build on the layers that came before it. Simply because a calculator can do it for you doesn't mean you don't need to know how to do it yourself, because if you don't understand it yourself you aren't going to be able to set the equations up for a calculator to crunch. Basic arithmetic is also a skill that needs to be ingrained at such a level that we don't need machines to do it, true, and the good news is that for most people, that's true. There are some, I will admit, who don't get it, but most people in my experience can make change without help. Percentages depends on the nature of the numbers involved -- if it's an easy one, sure, if it's not grab a calculator or paper and pencil. Square roots? The only way I know of to get to a square root is a calculator, or tons of guess and check. I prefer the former.

[Tipdin]

I'm sorry, but I don't see the connection between the two. Lets break this down part by part.

 

Spelling and printing aren't part of penmanship. Penmanship is the absurdity of asking students to learn and practice a second script -- cursive -- that has little relation to the primary script -- printed text -- that they are expected to learn. Cursive made sense once because it's quicker to write with, but in the modern era there is little to no point. I can type as fast as most people can speak, and I can type far faster than even the best hand writer can manage in cursive. Learning to write in print is a basic, grade-school level task that I wouldn't expect to last past 3rd or 4th grade, about the time typing takes over. Spelling would remain just as important as ever.

 

Arithmetic on the other hand is important because it's a fundamental building block to types of higher math. If you don't understand addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division you can't hope to learn fractions, algebra, trig, calculus... Each layer of math is build on the layers that came before it. Simply because a calculator can do it for you doesn't mean you don't need to know how to do it yourself, because if you don't understand it yourself you aren't going to be able to set the equations up for a calculator to crunch. Basic arithmetic is also a skill that needs to be ingrained at such a level that we don't need machines to do it, true, and the good news is that for most people, that's true. There are some, I will admit, who don't get it, but most people in my experience can make change without help. Percentages depends on the nature of the numbers involved -- if it's an easy one, sure, if it's not grab a calculator or paper and pencil. Square roots? The only way I know of to get to a square root is a calculator, or tons of guess and check. I prefer the former.

I think that penmanship is still important. Not AS important as it once was, but still somewhat important. If you need to print or write, you should know HOW to print or write - and that includes spelling. I liken it to doing math.

 

 

This statement shows my age. In the early 1960s, spelling, printing, and writing were all PARTS of penmanship, there was no distinction made between them in those days. If you were going to print or write, then you were required to know how to spell - and make sentences that were grammatically correct. To do otherwise was a show of disrespect to those that were going to see it. If you cared about the person to whom you were going to show your work, respect them enough to show them work worth looking at. Further, to show others poorly done work, they would know that you were a less-educated person - a HUGE shame thing in those days. The philosophy of the era was very different from what it is now.

[Rilbur]

If you need to print or write, you should know HOW to print or write - and that includes spelling.

 

But when would you need cursive? The only time -- the only time -- I've used it in the last several years is to sign my name.

[Jack Frost]

Eventually many students will end up developing a mix of print and cursive because it's a bit slow to do in print. I still think it's still penmanship because handwriting is still an art for an individual to develop over time without realizing it and we still rarely find a handwriting that is the same for two persons. Just because many people of my generation don't write like the cursive alphabet cards over the blackboard during grade three or official scrip in the books or even like our grandparents, it doesn't mean it's not penmanship.

 

If you need to print or write, you should know HOW to print or write

Printing is writing. There is no "or" in it.

Edited January 21, 2011 by Jack Frost

[hayven]

For me, definitely worth it! Even though the degree I get and the paper it comes on will probably be worthless to me, the opportunities I received definitely taught me more than I could learn if I weren't here.