Something I find truly sad

[Gene Splicer PHD]

it is one of the many things we teach the kids, and that we as teachers are taught during training. you can only get help but admitting that you're screwing it up, and sometimes yes, success is admitting you have failed.

 

as for the idea that all faults of the child are faults of the parents/people who raised them, that's is just not true. there are people who are just hard wired differently - like those with a diminished capacity for empathy, we call them psychopaths, their brains actually don't function the way most people's do. like kids with severe autism, aspergus, even dyslexia. their brains work in a different way, sometimes this can have a deep affect on their personalities and their ability to cope with the outside world. don't go saying that the fault of the child is the fault of the parent.

Oh, I hope I didn't come across as saying it's always the parents fault. I've seen many people that have had very good childhoods turn out to be not-good people. Yes, nurture is a big part of becoming a good person - but it's not everything. Sometimes bad people are just, well, bad on their own, no outside help needed

[Sasha Distan]

Oh, I hope I didn't come across as saying it's always the parents fault. I've seen many people that have had very good childhoods turn out to be not-good people. Yes, nurture is a big part of becoming a good person - but it's not everything. Sometimes bad people are just, well, bad on their own, no outside help needed

 

sorry my dear, but no, that comment was not aimed at you. i am bad at making these things clear. sorry

[TetRefine]

Psychopathy and other mental disorders make up such a small slice of the "bad kid" population because it is so rare in the general population. I can remember most of the "bad kids" from when I was growing up were kids who came from abused and neglected homes. Alcoholism, drug use, physical/mental/sexual abuse, abandonment, homelessness, etc. were all part of these kids every-day lives, and they were all caused by their parents (if they even deserve to be called that). When all you see around you is negative influences, to you that is normal and socially acceptable. It's all learned from the parents. Are there exceptions? Yes, but parents are still ultimately responsible for the way their kids are raised. 

 

Try working with a group of 7-9 year old boys who come from the most drug-riddled, violent neighborhoods of New York City. They aren't old enough to properly express emotions, often have learning disabilities, almost always come from broken homes, and are very defensive and guarded because of the violence and turmoil they have witnessed at home and on their streets. Now take that same group of "troubled boys" out of that environment for a week and put them into a summer camp setting where they are surrounded by encouraging adults who they can look up to. The difference is absolutely night and day simply because they know they have someone there to support them and someone they know who cares about them. When they get that level of support that every kid deserves, it can completely change them. I've been a part of this now for over three years and every year my theory on parental support only grows stronger because of what I witness. 

 

Nurture makes the difference 99% of the time. 

[Kitt]

 

 

Try working with a group of 7-9 year old boys who come from the most drug-riddled, violent neighborhoods of New York City. They aren't old enough to properly express emotions, often have learning disabilities, almost always come from broken homes, and are very defensive and guarded because of the violence and turmoil they have witnessed at home and on their streets. Now take that same group of "troubled boys" out of that environment for a week and put them into a summer camp setting where they are surrounded by encouraging adults who they can look up to. The difference is absolutely night and day simply because they know they have someone there to support them and someone they know who cares about them. When they get that level of support that every kid deserves, it can completely change them. I've been a part of this now for over three years and every year my theory on parental support only grows stronger because of what I witness. 

 

Nurture makes the difference 99% of the time. 

I have worked with groups of 5 to 9 yr olds, coming from ALL walks of life, and not for a week at a time during summer vacation, but for 9 months a year on a daily basis for more than 12 years. Some come from environments exactly like you describe- and you are right - having supportive caring adults around DOES make a difference.

 

You cannot however state unequivocally that a bad kid is caused by a bad parent - you simply cannot know the whole story every time! Are some bad kids caused by bad parents? Yes! and it is great that you have been able to help some of them.  But to condemn all parents of kids who have taken a wrong turn in life is a bit narrow minded don't you think? 

[TetRefine]

I have worked with groups of 5 to 9 yr olds, coming from ALL walks of life, and not for a week at a time during summer vacation, but for 9 months a year on a daily basis for more than 12 years. Some come from environments exactly like you describe- and you are right - having supportive caring adults around DOES make a difference.

 

You cannot however state unequivocally that a bad kid is caused by a bad parent - you simply cannot know the whole story every time! Are some bad kids caused by bad parents? Yes! and it is great that you have been able to help some of them.  But to condemn all parents of kids who have taken a wrong turn in life is a bit narrow minded don't you think? 

 

Working with privileged kids is a cake walk compared to working with kids from tough backgrounds. The chief difference between the kids I work with during the winter (I've been teaching skiing to kids now for 8 years), and the kids I work with during the summer is how they were raised. The well off kids from the suburbs who I teach skiing to I rarely have problems with, and have far less behavioral issues than the kids from the city who come over the summer. Whats the chief and glaring difference? Parental support and involvement. The parents who's kids I teach skiing to are always visibly involved in their kid's lives, evidenced by the fact that drop them off, pick them up, and ask me how they did every single week. Its clear that to me that these kids get far more attention and support from their parents as compared to the summer kids, who's parents can often care less, and therefor leads to more behavioral problems. 

 

Before the kids arrive for the summer camp, we get a briefing from the social worker and psychologist on each kid and their situation. Almost every single kid had no father in the picture. Over half of the 15 boys we had this previous summer had some family member in jail. If I remember right, 3 were in foster care because of abuse/neglect, and one kid was living with relatives because mom had died of an overdose and dad was a gang-banger. This is all anecdotal evidence so believe me if you like, or not. I've realized I'm not going to change anyone's mind with us. To me, parental failures cause the vast majority of kid's failures, and I've seen way too much evidence in working with kids to support this for anyone to change my mind. 

Edited November 18, 2013 by TetRefine

[Daddydavek]

In life there are no guarantees.   Children don't come with a user handbook for parents.   Children are also not a tableau rosa, especially if the birth mother used drugs, didn't have proper nutrition and a host of other factors.   We were married 9 years before we adopted and researched it for 5 years before we took the plunge.   We went through a very reputable agency that did comprehensive background checks and received extensive counseling.   Most parents and most children are not perfect and mistakes are made despite the best of intentions.   While we do not know the complete details of the example provided, we can probably assume there was plenty of blame to go around.   A failed family experience is devastating for the child and usually for the parents as well.  IF ONLY is a blame game.   It is truly sad that it happened.   Does that mean adoption is a risky choice?  Absolutely.  So is having your own children.  Again, there are no guarantees.   It is just like taking a chance on love.  You can get hurt and probably will, but could you live without it?   Children and grandchildren are wonderful even though not always and not for everyone.  

Edited November 19, 2013 by Daddydavek

[Cia]

Nurture is not always at the heart of an issue though you're right Matt, quite often it is. I've lived it, though not at the heart of a city, but in a small town. Neglect and abuse can happen anywhere. Kids with shattered backgrounds come with a lot of baggage. They are more likely to act out and have issues, but sometimes no matter what the parents try to do kids can be 'wrong'. Then again, you have kids who live that life and they turn out okay so obviously there are always exceptions. Kids CAN overcome their upbringing. There are also more than a few kids with privileged backgrounds that get into drugs and other issues too.

 

The problem is that some people who are completely outside the situation think it's okay to judge. Without being one you can't know the day in and day out slog of parenting. Condemning THESE parents and/or the kid without walking a mile in their shoes is wrong. Obviously they all need support and thankfully we have systems set in place for just that reason.

[Y_B]

 

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Edited November 19, 2013 by Y_B

[Rndmrunner]

I agree with Sasha. As a parent, it would be heartbreaking to see a child you loved hardwired for self destruction. I believe environment is a strong influence but some of us are hardwired in anti-social ways.  Equally some kids come though the most horrific circumstances relatively unscathed - there is even a term "invulnerable children". As a print your biggest hope is that they grow up to be happy, productive and independent. My kid has just turned double digits and i think - Oh god half the time i have to raise this child is gone. They grow up too fast. So my kid will be bringing girls or boys home  - AHHH dating, i'm not ready !!!!! I guess a lot can change in 5 years.

[Thorn Wilde]

I was a troubled kid. I always had a temper, which I inherited from both my parents. Back when they lived together they fought a lot (not physically, just shouting) and this obviously did stuff to me and the way I handled anger. Additionally, I was raised as an only child, as all my brothers were mostly grown up by the time I was born, so I was used to dealing with adults rather than other children, and my vocabulary was way beyond my years when I started socialising with kids my age. So, I was bullied, because I was so different. Half the time they didn't even understand what I was on about. I was small and scrawny and no match for the big boys, either. This contributed to my temper. So did the feeling of not belonging,

 

As I grew older, nothing really seemed to get any better. I just found new ways in which to be angry. Less tantrums, more violence. When my parents split up, my mum was left alone to deal with my shit most of the time, and I'm pretty sure there were times when she wanted to give up on me. She never did, though.

 

When my dad passed away when I was 11, my issues became even greater. I developed insomnia (which I still suffer from today) and got occasional panic attacks that my teachers interpreted as violent temper tantrums. It wasn't until I reached my teens that my moods started to even out (and how many people does that happen to, isn't the teens when you're supposed to get more moody?) as I started to figure out my place in the world and, for almost the first time, started making proper friendships. Once I found people who were just as fucked up as I was, I started to feel like I belonged.

 

I haven't got anger issues anymore. I mean, I still get angry, and I enjoy a good rant, but all my violent instincts are gone. I can't imagine what would have happened if my parents had given up on me. For many years I must have seemed like I was beyond help. But people heal with time, they can get better on their own, and growing up does a lot. I would never, ever give up on a 9-year-old. If I was at the end of my tether I would seek help, but I would never give up on my child, because I know that this shit gets better. Extreme emotional states are caused by chemical or hormonal imbalances, and these change between childhood and adulthood. Children are people. People can, almost always, get better. 

Edited November 19, 2013 by Thorn Wilde

[Gene Splicer PHD]

I was a broken kid. Taught, mostly by cousins and people that screwed with me, not to show emotion, and definitely not to ask for help. Lost my mom at nine, moved to a neighborhood where drugs were easy to get and my dad and stepmom - who was all of 26 when she married into a family of preteens and a busy husband - were still trying to figure out how to live together while being buried by debt.

 

I don't think my parents tried to break the kids, or be bad parents. They were just distant and had no idea how to deal with a kid that flew into rages, was never happy, and, by the time I was 14 or so, spent all my time stoned. I was the kid your parents warned you about, for sure.

 

Were my parents bad parents? Yeah. They were. But not through any fault of their own. They did the best they could with what they had, and that's how parenting is done. You don't, no matter how many copies they sell, learn it from a book. Most parents I know - and now lots of my friends are parents - are winging it. They don't know any better than my parents did, they're just doing it, every day, dealing with things as they happen. Most of the time, they react, rather than act proactively, to what the kids are up to, and I think that's been true of parents since we came down from the trees.

 

But there's one thing I've really learned - as I grew older, my parents fell off their pedestals and became people, dealing, as I've said, with the day-to-day as it happened. Some of their tactics screwed me up, some of them really worked. But I, and I alone, am responsible for my life. I can't blame them for my current life, because they haven't been a part of it for a good long time now.

 

If there's one thing you should teach a kid, it's this: no one is going to help you be happy, no one is going to prop you up forever. Get out there and make a life for yourself.

 

So bad parenting - yeah, it happens. And when it happens to a young child, it's awful. If that kid turns out rotten, well, at some point you've got to put it on the KID to fix the problem. It may be a whole lot of parental influence that makes a bad kid a bad kid - but there does come a point where it's not the parents at fault.

 

It's the kid.

[Henry_Henry2012]

Dear Lord. What is wrong with people these days. We are so overwhelmed with choices, that we devote our lives in having all the choices we could have that we forget the bigger picture that we only need to pick one and throw the rest away if we feel it in hearts that it's the right one. Adopting a child is an option by those who mostly had no options to begin with, or had limited options. When a child is involved and parents seemingly find ways to open doors that shouldn't be opened, it's always the kid that suffers.

 

The only reason that any PARENT, ADOPTIVE Or BIOLOGICAL for that matter, should give up their children or be allowed in the eyes of the law or in the eyes of their relative moral society to give up their child, is when the parents cannot provide the needs of the child, may it be through emotional or financial support. Not being able to love a child because of a defect is not a reason for you to give up any kid for that reason alone. Being an unfit mother or father is the only reason any court of law should consider such premises.

 

Although I do believe that if and if the parent's feel that they do not have it in their bones or skin to love their adopted child/children for whatever psychological or emotional reason they hold, then it's relative to just give up the child to social welfare for them to find a suitable loving home for the kid. But COME ON! 9 years? That's why they have adjustment periods to assess if the kid acculturates or bonds with the adoptive parents or adoptive family, to ensure that utmost care is provided to the adopted child.

 

Well I'd want the kid to be given to adoptive parents who will love him for who he is. This is just wrong on so many levels. I'm not a religious crackpot, but my oh my . . . these parents surely burn in hell. I just wish the child has the emotional propensity to handle these things in his formative years into adulthood. 

[Zombie]

This is the law in England and Wales ...

 

"An adoption order has a quite different standing to almost every other order made by a court. It provides the status of the adopted child and of the adoptive parents. The effect of an adoption order is to extinguish any parental responsibility of the natural parents. Once an adoption order has been made, the adoptive parents stand to one another and the child in precisely the same relationship as if they were his legitimate parents, and the child stands in the same relationship to them as to legitimate parents. Once an adoption order has been made the adopted child ceases to be the child of his previous parents and becomes the child for all purposes of the adopters as though he were their legitimate child.” [Lord Justice Swinton Thomas in Re B (Adoption: Jurisdiction to Set Aside) [1995] Fam 239, at 245C]

Well that's pretty crystal clear In other words, an adopted child is exactly the same in the eyes of the law as a birth child. So the suggestion that an adopted child can somehow be treated differently from birth children by adoptive parents -"given up", "handed back" or whatever - is incorrect. There is no difference, nada.

The case I mentioned before, from memory, I got some of the facts wrong - in fact it was far worse. But the court made clear that powers to revoke or set aside an adoption are very very restricted. The finality and irrevocability of adoption trumps everything - except flawed consent based on mistaken fact, procedural errors in the adoption process, flawed foreign adoptions, or fraud - although interestingly in that case there was no referral to the ECHR.

But this case happened in the US. What does US law say?

http://www.newlawjournal.co.uk/nlj/content/family-revoking-adoptions
 

Edited November 20, 2013 by Zombie