LitLover Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) Adi said in one of his answers to a reviewer "you don't purposely hurt the one you love". By not trusting Ren at all and leaving without a word, that's what Jonah did too...he purposely hurt someone he apparently loved (not with words, but with actions). Have you ever said something in the heat of temper that you had to apologize for? Something hurtful that you regretted? Now imagine never getting a chance to say you're sorry because the person you hurt runs? And then moves on, without ever speaking to you again? I know it's not a popular position, but I feel awful for Ren. He lost everything while Jonah (not innocent in this whole mess) is coming out of this smelling like a rose with a hot hat guy. Edited January 16, 2015 by LitLover 1
Timothy M. Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) He didn't run immediately, he had a nervous break down, for fuck's sake ! and he didn't run to hurt Ren on purpose. Yeah, he left the restaurant, but he let Ren know at once he'd seen him and Eric, by letting the waiter give him the key. And if Ren had told Chris what had happened when he called him, sent Jonah an email, some flowers with a card, or just fucking TOLD Chris the truth in the cafe, Jonah wouldn't have run to Sicily. If Ren had told Chris the truth and Jonah hadn't believed him and trusted him to met up with him, THEN we could blame Jonah. Or if Jonah just ran without letting Ren know about seeing him and Eric. You think Jonah should have stood up and gone over to Ren and said "Fancy meeting you here and would you care to explain why you and my cheating ex-boyfriend are pretending to be lovers in public?" How many of us would do that ? Embarrass ourselves like that? Can't you understand Jonah was humiliated, devastated, undercut by his worst nightmare ? I've had someone I loved discard me and destroy my feeling of self-worth - not that way but it was bad enough, and even years after I could hardly face that person. I can understand why a sensitive guy like Jonah could not just 'go and see Ren'. Chris was his hand stretched out in hope and Ren scorned the chance. Of course, it would have been utterly humiliating for Ren to admit to Chris how Eric tricked him - but in the end he admitted it to Michael, because he knew losing Jonah was harder than the blow to his pride. Shame he didn't think of that beforehand - not so clever of Mr Plan-it-all-out-beforehand and doing the intelligent and rational thing and not being ruled by his emotions Ren. Sorry, rant over - and nothing personal, Lit, I feel the same disappointment that the evil bastard won. And I agree that if Jonah had been a bit more mature things might have gone differently. Edited January 16, 2015 by Timothy M. 2
LitLover Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) I get it Tim, I do. I'm not saying he should have confronted Ren at the restaurant, but later. And Ren TRIED to call him (right away I might add). Jonah refused to answer. He TRIED to go and see him. He was stopped by Chris. Yea Jonah had a breakdown, but what about later? Why did he think sending Chris a good idea? He knew Ren's insecurities as well as you say Ren should have know jonah's. He had to know that Ren would not take it well when he didn't go himself. Jonah gets a pass on his stupid behaviour because he is sensitive but Ren doesn't get any because he was hurt and lashed out because he thought Jonah apparently didn't care enough to see him in person?? Really? Again, it's moot. Jonah has the hat guy, Ren however will have to remember forever because of the tattoo. Ren wasn't a monster. He was hurt. He just wasn't allowed to be I guess because Jonah is too fragile. Sigh...rant over. And yea no hard feelings Tim. Edited January 16, 2015 by LitLover 2
Timothy M. Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) I went back to ch 11 to check. You're right, Jonah did plan to run to Sicily even before Chris met Ren in the café. And he said: "Chris, you can't meet Ren. I don't know what he'll do…" It was wrong to let Chris do that for me. The right thing would be for me to talk to Ren. I knew that, but the mere thought of sitting in front of him, seeing his face, made me feel nauseous. I was a coward. Ren rang Jonah while they were driving away, he called Chris the next morning, he came by the flat in the afternoon. So you're right that he did try very hard to get in touch with Jonah, and he probably didn't believe it when Chris said Jonah had a break-down. Maybe he thought Chris wanted to separate them too. And maybe Eric hadn't told him the truth yet. But even if Jonah was being stupid and a coward, Ren made the initial mistakes: he trusted Eric and he kept seeing him and he assumed Jonah was over his issues concerning trust and fear of being cheated on. And he gave Jonah less than 30 hours to come to his senses before he did the crazy cafe stunt. sorry, I still blame Ren more than Jonah - and it still hurts to see Jonah say to Chris that there must be something wrong with him if two men who claim to love him also cheat on him. Edited January 16, 2015 by Timothy M. 1
LitLover Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 But even if Jonah was being stupid and a coward, Ren made the initial mistakes: he trusted Eric and he kept seeing him and he assumed Jonah was over his issues concerning trust and fear of being cheated on. And he gave Jonah less than 30 hours to come to his senses before he did the crazy cafe stunt. sorry, I still blame Ren more than Jonah - and it still hurts to see Jonah say to Chris that there must be something wrong with him if two men who claim to love him also cheat on him. Chapter 11 again: "I knew Ren was still in contact with him. I was sure he even met him sometimes but I didn't want to hear about that. I didn't want to discuss it with Ren either....I didn't care so I didn't want to talk about it" As far as Ren knew, Jonah didn't care that he hung out with Eric and it sounds like he wouldnt talk about Eric with him. At what point was Ren supposed to figure out it was a problem? Yea Ren was an idiot for trusting Eric but IF Jonah asked him to stop seeing Eric there was a damn good chance he would have stopped. But we will never know now. And Ren gave Jonah 30 hours (after numerous attempts to reach him). Jonah didn't even give Ren 10 seconds before he decided not to trust him and run off. And Ren did NOT cheat. A fact that Jonah would have known if he didn't take off. Somehow Ren gets abandoned and gutted but is still the bad guy and Jonah gets the hat guy in the end. 1
Irritable1 Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) Well, my meeting is over and my allegiance unchanged. A man who will tattoo his neck and drink gin straight from the bottle (ugh) [edit: for love, I mean, not just for fun] is clearly one who'll get his man. Poor Sandro, though.Someday I must tell you all about the 2 am call I got from my college boyfriend asking if we could have an open relationship Edited January 16, 2015 by Irritable1 2
Timothy M. Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 And Ren gave Jonah 30 hours (after numerous attempts to reach him). Jonah didn't even give Ren 10 seconds before he decided not to trust him and run off. And Ren did NOT cheat. A fact that Jonah would have known if he didn't take off. Somehow Ren gets abandoned and gutted but is still the bad guy and Jonah gets the hat guy in the end. But Ren looked like he and Eric was a couple - we know that now, since he admitted to the 'role play'. It wasn't something Jonah and Chris had imagined (which was my first option). Thirty hours is no where near enough to get over a perceived betrayal like that - and Ren had no right to demand that kind of trust from Jonah after Eric. But he probably thought Jonah was overreacting about Eric - until the fucker screwed him over too. Turns out Ren is a worse judge of characer that Jonah - ironic isn't it ? And Ren wasted the first real chance he had to explain to Chris - who was at that point ready to listen. If he'd kept insisting he was innocent and loved Jonah and wanted to see him to explain, he would have won in the end. The weird thing is, I have the feeling Ren may get Jonah back eventually.
Timothy M. Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Gary agrees with you, LL - his review says: Jonah and his trust issues have started all this. Ren gave him everything he could and Jonah couldn't even be decent enough to talk to him then and can't be decent enough to talk to him now? And all I can say is: who caused Jonah to have trust issues? who tricked Ren? Let's start blaming the real culprit. Any new suggestions for Eric's painful demise? 1
Irritable1 Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Gary agrees with you, LL - his review says: And all I can say is: who caused Jonah to have trust issues? who tricked Ren? Let's start blaming the real culprit. Any new suggestions for Eric's painful demise? I SAID bake him in a pie, and did you listen? NO. 3
Headstall Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Yea and Jonah did the one thing that would be guaranteed to hurt Ren too..he didn't trust him...didn't even try. He knows that trust is important to Ren too (Ren told him that) and still he ran without talking to him...himself...not send someone else. Ren might not have said something so stupid (and yes it was monumentally stupid) if Jonah had been the one to go and see him. I guess its a moot point now. Jonah has moved on. Ren has lost him. Hopefully they both learn something. Edit: Everyone is all "oh poor Jonah". Yea he was hurt. I get that, but by running without giving him a chance, or even a glimmer of trust, he gutted Ren too, but Jonah gets the hat guy and Ren gets...gin?. I couldn't say it any better than this. This is EXACTLY what I think. Imagine not being able to get through to your PARTNER in any way...and then Chris shows up with attitude...I know how hurt I would feel, and I would be pissed....and stressed out with probably no sleep, I might lash out too! Stupid? Yeah. But it's a two way street. 2
LitLover Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 But Ren looked like he and Eric was a couple - we know that now, since he admitted to the 'role play'. It wasn't something Jonah and Chris had imagined (which was my first option). Thirty hours is no where near enough to get over a perceived betrayal like that - and Ren had no right to demand that kind of trust from Jonah after Eric. But he probably thought Jonah was overreacting about Eric - until the fucker screwed him over too. Turns out Ren is a worse judge of characer that Jonah - ironic isn't it ? And Ren wasted the first real chance he had to explain to Chris - who was at that point ready to listen. If he'd kept insisting he was innocent and loved Jonah and wanted to see him to explain, he would have won in the end. The weird thing is, I have the feeling Ren may get Jonah back eventually. My point is, Ren is losing weight, he's unkempt. He's suffering and devastated, for saying something stupid and trusting someone. Jonah has had all the control. He chose to run. He chose not to talk. He chose to stay in Italy(where Ren can't reach him). He chose to start sleeping with the hat guy. These are all his choices and he has no bad consequences now. He gets the hat guy if he wants him or he gets Ren if he wants. It's still ALL his choice. 1
Timothy M. Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) My point is, Ren is losing weight, he's unkempt. He's suffering and devastated, for saying something stupid and trusting someone. Jonah has had all the control. He chose to run. He chose not to talk. He chose to stay in Italy(where Ren can't reach him). He chose to start sleeping with the hat guy. These are all his choices and he has no bad consequences now. He gets the hat guy if he wants him or he gets Ren if he wants. It's still ALL his choice. sounds good to me ! I'm firmly on Jonah's side in this - and Sandro's too. Oh and Ren should have dumped Eric as a friend by himself. Jonah was being remarkably mature for not demanding it - since Ren would have resented that with his 'I know better and I'm always right and people should trust me no matter how bad it looks' attitude. Yeah, I'm still not a REN fan, in case you hadn't noticed. Somebody has to support Adi. Edited January 16, 2015 by Timothy M. 1
Irritable1 Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) I couldn't say it any better than this. This is EXACTLY what I think. Imagine not being able to get through to your PARTNER in any way...and then Chris shows up with attitude...I know how hurt I would feel, and I would be pissed....and stressed out with probably no sleep, I might lash out too! Stupid? Yeah. But it's a two way street. Yup. My point is, Ren is losing weight, he's unkempt. He's suffering and devastated, for saying something stupid and trusting someone. Jonah has had all the control. He chose to run. He chose not to talk. He chose to stay in Italy(where Ren can't reach him). He chose to start sleeping with the hat guy. These are all his choices and he has no bad consequences now. He gets the hat guy if he wants him or he gets Ren if he wants. It's still ALL his choice. Yup. It's just raining geniuses in here Edited January 16, 2015 by Irritable1 2
Headstall Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Wow...the feelings are intense for all of us...I wanted to "like" everything but I am out. See what you great writing has done to us Adi? Both of them were stupid...but Eric needs to die a horrible death!!! 2
Timothy M. Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 It's just raining geniuses in here I notice I'm not included in the genius bunch. I'm going to bed.
Irritable1 Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) Yeah, I'm still not a REN fan, in case you hadn't noticed. Somebody has to support Adi. Oh for goodness's sake, Timmy, I will support Addy by reading what he writes, thank you very much Chris says there's news, and Jonah's heart is in his mouth because it's probably about REN. He says there's a wedding, and Jonah nearly throws up because it might be REN's wedding. He's on tenterhooks till he sees the picture of REN, and then he's a mess because he sees that REN IS SAD and then he hears that REN spoke, quite calmly, about THEIR BREAKUP, and he dashes out of the room... I give Sandro, oh ten days, tops. I notice I'm not included in the genius bunch. I was going to say, "and good-looking people." Edited January 16, 2015 by Irritable1 1
Headstall Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) sounds good to me ! I'm firmly on Jonah's side in this - and Sandro's too. Oh and Ren should have dumped Eric as a friend by himself. Jonah was being remarkably mature for not demanding it - since Ren would have resented that with his 'I know better and I'm always right and people should trust me no matter how bad it looks' attitude. I get why you feel the way you do, Tim and I respect it... but I have to disagree with the "remarkably mature" part. Jonah is terrible at facing things and communicating....that is what this story is about... hence, the reason for talking to his laptop. To me , the mature thing would have been to say..'Eric hurt me...you hanging out with him is your right, but it upsets me because I don't trust him and I don't think you should either.' Sorry Adi for rewriting your story . The thing is, it wouldn't have been about not trusting Ren...it would have been about not trusting Eric...I think in a mature relationship, you owe it to your partner to let him know how you feel and then let them decide what to do with that. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that Ren would have appreciated Jonah telling him how he felt because that would be showing real trust in Ren....just saying Edited January 16, 2015 by Headstall 1
LitLover Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Oh for goodness's sake, Timmy, I will support Addy by reading what he writes, thank you very much Chris says there's news, and Jonah's heart is in his mouth because it's probably about REN. He says there's a wedding, and Jonah nearly throws up because it might be REN's wedding. He's on tenterhooks till he sees the picture of REN, and then he's a mess because he sees that REN IS SAD and then he hears that REN spoke, quite calmly, about THEIR BREAKUP, and he dashes out of the room... I give Sandro, oh ten days, tops." Exactly! For a guy not on the rebound, it kind of sounds like he's on the rebound. Two hot guys vying for his love, neither of which has cheated and will take him, neurotic, flighty and untrusting or not? One of whom is actually pining for him? Gee Jonah has it rough.
Irritable1 Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) Exactly! For a guy not on the rebound, it kind of sounds like he's on the rebound. Two hot guys vying for his love, neither of which has cheated and will take him, neurotic, flighty and untrusting or not? One of whom is actually pining for him? Gee Jonah has it rough. He is good at dealing with vomiting children, which is a very valuable skill. He just hasn't exercised it very much since about Chapter 3. Edited January 16, 2015 by Irritable1 1
LitLover Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) sounds good to me ! I'm firmly on Jonah's side in this - and Sandro's too. Oh and Ren should have dumped Eric as a friend by himself. Jonah was being remarkably mature for not demanding it - since Ren would have resented that with his 'I know better and I'm always right and people should trust me no matter how bad it looks' attitude. Yeah, I'm still not a REN fan, in case you hadn't noticed. Somebody has to support Adi. I get why you feel the way you do, Tim and I respect it... but I have to disagree with the "remarkably mature" part. Jonah is terrible at facing things and communicating....that is what this story is about... hence, the reason for talking to his laptop. To me , the mature thing would have been to say..'Eric hurt me...you hanging out with him is your right, but it upsets me because I don't trust him and I don't think you should either.' Sorry Adi for rewriting your story . The thing is, it wouldn't have been about not trusting Ren...it would have been about not trusting Eric...I think in a mature relationship, you owe it to your partner to let him know how you feel and then let them decide what to do with that. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that Ren would have appreciated Jonah telling him how he felt because that would be showing real trust in Ren....just sayingTim, I agree with Gary on this (a shock, I know) Jonah was not being mature. He was being an ostrich. He decided not talk to Ren about Eric, choosing to ignore that he existed. Thats not mature. Why is it Rens fault that Jonah didn't talk to him? Ren went on face value and didn't hide that he was talking to Eric. Jonah was the one who shut down that line of communication. Edit: Again ALL in Jonah's control. No one else's. Edited January 16, 2015 by LitLover
LitLover Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) On a side note (because I clearly haven't obsessed about this enough), Chris and Michael need to be bitch slapped HARD. Why did they wait so long to talk to Jonah? Why not tell him about Ren over the phone? To be fair though, I guess they didn't really expect him to fall into bed and into a relationship with the first guy in Italy to ask him to take his clothes off (still not a fan of Sandro being pulled into the middle of this mess so he's still being classified as a "messy inconvenience"). I still say major slapping around needs to happen with those two though. Edited January 16, 2015 by LitLover 2
Irritable1 Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) Maybe they feared that as soon as they uttered the dread word REN he'd slam down the phone and take off?? Quote To be fair though, I guess they didn't really expect him to fall into bed and into a relationship with the first guy in Italy to ask him to take his clothes off. HARSH, Lit. I sure as heck wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a second Sandro to come along.... If an Italian asks me to take my clothes off, I'm not standing around arguing... Edited January 17, 2015 by Irritable1 1
LitLover Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) Maybe they feared that as soon as they uttered the dread word REN he'd slam down the phone and take off??That's plausible, but "Jonah, Ren never cheated" takes seconds. Who knows. Everyone in the story needs a slap in the head. Except Matteo. He's awesome! :-) Edited January 17, 2015 by LitLover 1
Headstall Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 HARSH, Lit. I sure as heck wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a second Sandro to come along.... If an Italian asks me to take my clothes off, I'm not standing around arguing... Irri! I am shocked!....and somewhat intrigued.... 1
Headstall Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 That's plausible, but "Jonah, Ren never cheated" takes seconds. Who knows. Everyone in the story needs a slap in the head. Except Matteo. He's awesome! :-) Matteo is the only one with any sense...and Jonah keeps thinking he should talk to him...but, shock of shocks...doesn't. 2
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