Red Running Shoes by Aditus

[Timothy M.]

There are some things I don't understand. First...I know it's implied...but are Sandro and Jonah having sex. Adi?

Secondly, I thought Ren made those supposed remarks to Chris...not Michael...wtf...when did that change or am I stupid...

 

IF Jonah is having sex with Sandro...I would say that is impossible to come back from...and I find myself hating Jonah for going that far before finding out the truth....

 

Yes, they are having sex, they are boyfriends.

 

Ren made those hurtful remarks to Chris, but he explained the whole Eric thing and the cafe words to Michael at the wedding

 

There is nothing for Jonah to come back to ! That is the whole point of Ren destroying their last chance in the cafe. It was over after that, so why shouldn't Jonah accept the love of someone else ?

 

And  Irri, I don't want Jonah to go back to Ren. I want him to stay in Sicily and be happy with Sandro, as I've said more than once.

[Irritable1]

Yes, they are having sex, they are boyfriends.

 

Ren made those hurtful remarks to Chris, but he explained the whole Eric thing and the cafe words to Michael at the wedding

 

There is nothing for Jonah to come back to ! That is the whole point of Ren destroying their last chance in the cafe. It was over after that, so why shouldn't Jonah accept the love of someone else ?

 

And  Irri, I don't want Jonah to go back to Ren. I want him to stay in Sicily and be happy with Sandro, as I've said more than once.

Then we are all in agreement. Ok, time to turn off phone...

[LitLover]

Yes he was. He was still in mental melt down when he arrived in Sicily and for days after.

 

Let's get the timeline right here:

 

• Jonah sees Eric and Ren pretending to be a loving couple in restaurant.
• Jonah sends waiter with key to Ren and goes out kitchen door.
• Ren tries to ring Jonah, who ignores it.
• Jonah feels like his heart is being torn out.
• Jonah gets to Chris' place, throws up and 'a trembling mess.'
• He says (maybe in retrospect) 'That Tuesday evening I gave up on trust.'
• Jonah is put to bed with a sedative and a massage. He wakes up at ten am the next day.
• Chris yells at Ren on the phone and tells him Jonah has a mental breakdown.
• Jonah tries to understand why Ren would cheat on him with Eric.
• There is this exchange: Chris: "You could always stay and confront him, you know." Jonah: "No, I couldn't do that. I-I just couldn't… see him. Oh God, I’m so embarrassed."
• He goes back to bed and is more or less in a zombie state.
• Ren bangs on the door at some point and Chris shouts some more at him.
• Jonah wakes up at three in the afternoon the next day and talks to Michael and Chris about going to Sicily.
• Michael say Ren 'thinks he is being wrongfully accused.' (none of them buys it)
• Chris suggests he meets up with Ren.
• Jonahs reaction: The right thing would be for me to talk to Ren. I knew that, but the mere thought of sitting in front of him, seeing his face, made me feel nauseous.
• Jonah books a flight to Sicily while Michael gets his stuff and Chris meets with Ren.
• Ren says the nasty stuff to Chris in the restaurant, knowing this will destroy everything (by his own later admission)
• Chris tells Jonah who takes off for Sicily.

Will you please tell me WHERE in this timeline (from 1 to 18) you can see Jonah being in a rational enough state of mind to talk to Ren?

 

He knows he should, but he cannot face the idea (see 10 and 16). We are talking less than 48 hours after he sees Ren and Erik as 'lovers' till the point where Ren decides he cannot forgive Jonah for not trusting him. Once Ren says those things to Chris in the cafe, any chance of Jonah talking to him is gone.

 

Of course, you can keep saying Jonah should have known Ren would never do this to him. There must be some other explanation. Now we know there is: Eric tricked Ren. And Jonah would work this out how? We didn't. Matteo is the only one to suggest something is wrong with the idea, but this is long after 18. The cafe moment.

 

Was Jonah wrong in thinking Ren was cheating on him? Yes.

Would you have been able to disbelieve the evidence of your own eyes (not some vague rumor)?

I wouldn't, and Jonah couldn't. Was this the fault of Jonah and Chris (two guys who had both been played by Eric already) - or should we blame Eric, and perhaps Ren for trusting Eric?

 

Would Jonah have found out if only he had talked to Ren? Yes.

Would he have found out if Ren had told Chris the truth in the cafe? (assuming Ren already knew the whole thing from Eric, but even without that he could have said the role play stuff) Yes.

 

For my part, I think Jonah is less to blame for not trusting Ren and for not being rational in those 48 hours, than Ren is to blame for not understanding why Jonah came to the wrong conclusion and for destroying the last chance by his words in the cafe. But I'm fine with saying they both are equally at fault.

So yes then, you do believe that Jonah is more entitled to his pain and weaknesses than Ren. Don't forget, Jonah's achiles heel is trusting someone not to cheat, Rens is NOT BEING trusted. Both reacted badly to their fear. So let me be clear, you think only Jonah was allowed to be hurt and react badly because he is sensitive and fragile? You do say he had the damn flight booked before Chris went to see Ren. Why couldn't Ren be fragile too? Fragile and hurt?

 

Let's just move them along. If that was how Jonah was going to be and he couldn't manage to trust a year long love for even a second then it's done. I don't get the "move on to a new love within weeks" thing myself, but c'est la vie I suppose. He managed to get Sandro. Good for him. He will never, ever do this to Sandro because he has suddenly grown up because everyone in his life is telling him he is so much more mature NOW. He'll be fine and I hate love triangles.

 

Bring on Kat Von D. I have some damn nice dragon designs for Ren.

Edited January 26, 2015 by LitLover

[Timothy M.]

Ren loved Jonah for a year, and made a stupid mistake which apparently negated that year of love and he apparently should be drawn and quartered and deserves those months of suffering waiting for Jonah to be good enough to come and talk to him.

 

Which stupid mistake are we talking about here?

The one where Ren role played loving couples with Eric?

 

Or the one where Ren destroyed the remaining part of his relationship with Jonah in the cafe?

 

After the last one, why would Ren be waiting for Jonah to come and talk to him? To get closure? Fine, Jonah is now ready for that.

 

Is it Jonah's fault Ren didn't move on like Jonah did? Ren is the one who says he knew his words to Chris would end it (even as he said them), and I got the feeling Ren did that because he realized Jonah couldn't trust him to the degree he needed. So no mistake, perhaps?

 

Who is to blame for Jonah's lack of trust? Maybe the cheating ex Eric?

 

We could also discuss the fact Ren and Jonah were boyfriends for a year before Ren trusted him enough to bottom. But let's not go there.

[LitLover]

Oh and if you can't tell, I can't sleep so I'm tired and cranky.

[Timothy M.]

Will you please tell me WHERE in this timeline (from 1 to 18) you can see Jonah being in a rational enough state of mind to talk to Ren?

 

still waiting for someone to tell me exactly when it was reasonable to expect Jonah to go and talk to Ren in those first 48 hours.

 

and I agree Ren has the right to feel hurt too, but he was still the one who decided to end it, not Jonah. That's the difference.

 

Edit - maybe not deliberately decide - but he chose to act on his hurt rather than be rational - exactly the same thing you blame Jonah for doing.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Timothy M.

[LitLover]

Which stupid mistake are we talking about here?

The one where Ren role played loving couples with Eric?

 

Or the one where Ren destroyed the remaining part of his relationship with Jonah in the cafe?

 

After the last one, why would Ren be waiting for Jonah to come and talk to him? To get closure? Fine, Jonah is now ready for that.

 

Is it Jonah's fault Ren didn't move on like Jonah did? Ren is the one who says he knew his words to Chris would end it (even as he said them), and I got the feeling Ren did that because he realized Jonah couldn't trust him to the degree he needed. So no mistake, perhaps?

 

Who is to blame for Jonah's lack of trust? Maybe the cheating ex Eric?

 

We could also discuss the fact Ren and Jonah were boyfriends for a year before Ren trusted him enough to bottom. But let's not go there.

Saying that stupid crap to Chris. He was hurt and angry and lashed out. That is where the Jonah fan club say he killed things. Honestly I would have been hurt and angry too in that circumstance. He knew Jonah was distrusting and already running (and booking that flight to italy before this tête-à-tête proves that notion right) and he was frustrated, hurt and said something hurtful back since Jonah was already "in the wind". Turns out Ren was more justified in his fears then Jonah and Jonah still is the one who is less hurt by it all. He gets a new guy who loves him already. Jonah had a meltdown for a few days. Ren has been having one since he ran from the sounds of things. I personally think Jonah killed the relationship. Not Ren. Ren just confirmed time of death.

 

And as for bottoming, I have friends who are "hard-core tops". Some are...not always about trust from what Ive been told.

Edited January 26, 2015 by LitLover

[Timothy M.]

That is where the Jonah fan club say he killed things.

 

No, that when REN says he destroyed it.

 

 

I asked him the very same thing and he said he'd been so furious that you still couldn’t trust him, that you’d think he would do that to you, he lashed out saying the one thing that he knew would hurt you the most. Thinking about it now, he actually never tried to gloss things over, but admitted freely that he knew with doing this he would fuck up anything that might have been left. His words.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Timothy M.

[LitLover]

No, that when REN says he destroyed it.

And that's what everyone points to when they say "oh you would never ever do this to Sandro. You would have totally calmed down, been rational and mature and talked to Ren if he hadn't said those hurtful, spiteful things, wouldn't you Jonah?". Insert Jonah nodding dutifully in agreement.

 

This conversation has happened several times with Jonah. No One mentions how often Ren tried to talk to him (and was rebuffed) No one mentions that Ren could have been hurt that he wasn't trusted and was constantly kept from talking to Jonah. No one mentions that Jonah already had the damned flight booked. Everyone in his life are enablers of his crappy behaviour. Everyone hates Ren for being hurt and lashing out but Jonah is sensitive so he can lash out by running away all he wanted because he's happy with Sandro now. Are you telling me that Jonah was any less aware that running off to Italy without talking to Ren all could very well kill any hope he had of potentially working things out with Ren? He killed it when he hit the "book now" button.

 

I'm not even sure why we're arguing about this. None of us want Jonah and Ren together anymore. We just have different reasons.

[LitLover]

Oh and going back to a previous conversation, Ren's sneer and comment that he wasn't surprised that Jonah "did a runner" tells me that he was under the impression that Jonah would be coming to see him at the cafe. Not Chris. I didn't really see Ren agreeing to meet with Chris anyways. Ren would have wanted to talk directly to Jonah, like he had been trying to do. Often. Ren doesn't strike me as a "let's play telephone" kind of guy. He would want one on one. So whether Chris outright lied to get Ren there or it was a lie of omission, who knows. That lie would definitely start Ren off on the defensive as soon as Chris walked in alone though.

 

Ok I'm tired and this is making me sad, so I'm going to try to sleep now.

[Irritable1]

"still waiting for someone to tell me exactly when it was reasonable to expect Jonah to go and talk to Ren in those first 48 hours."

 

Any time he could stand up and talk. Not to be glib Tim, but if my partner is hammering on the door? I would answer as soon as I was able. That's what being in a relationship IS.

 

 

and I agree Ren has the right to feel hurt too, but he was still the one who decided to end it, not Jonah. That's the difference.

[\quote]

 

I'll grant you that he acted in anger and maybe with more understanding of possible consequences.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Irritable1

[Irritable1]

Yikes, Lit, you still up? At least I have the excuse of hanging around airports.

[LitLover]

"still waiting for someone to tell me exactly when it was reasonable to expect Jonah to go and talk to Ren in those first 48 hours."

 

Any time he could stand up and talk. Not to be glib Tim, but if my partner is hammering on the door? I would answer as soon as I was able. That's what being in a relationship IS.

 

 

Exactly!

 

But again Jonah's friends say he is "fragile" and "sensitive" so simple decency doesn't seem to be expected out of him.

 

What I don't understand is how no one in his life expects him to some day do this to Sandro. Because they said he wouldn't? When has he proven he is capable of that kind of change? "Swish and flick" and he's going to be mature this time round? Hindsight is always 20/20, Jonah's problem is in the moment. That's when he runs. Even Jonah has voiced his fears about that, which are immediately hushed and glossed over.

[LitLover]

Yikes, Lit, you still up? At least I have the excuse of hanging around airports.

Got a few hours sleep. Have to be up for work. I pity the clients I have to talk to today. Lol. I see plenty of coffee in my future. Damn insomnia.

[Aditus]

Okay guys, I'm counting to ten here and I am already at twenty...trying really hard not to comment.

[LitLover]

Okay guys, I'm counting to ten here and I am already at twenty...trying really hard not to comment.

Awww come on. You know you want to.

[Irritable1]

Well, he has had three months (or whatever) of reflecting on what went wrong. He's clearly missing Ren. And we did get to see Sandro embracing a model with no repercussions. So who knows... Cheer up, maybe they'll be ok. I agree with you that it's the tattoo we need to focus on now.

[LitLover]

And Addy I do have one request. Please, please, please do NOT have Sandro come with Jonah to see Ren if Jonah does go (I saw something about that in a review). After everything Ren does not need to be confronted by Jonah's new lover too. That would just be cruel.

[Irritable1]

Okay guys, I'm counting to ten here and I am already at twenty...trying really hard not to comment.

What? What?

[LitLover]

Well, he has had three months (or whatever) of reflecting on what went wrong. He's clearly missing Ren. And we did get to see Sandro embracing a model with no repercussions. So who knows... Cheer up, maybe they'll be ok. I agree with you that it's the tattoo we need to focus on now.

Yea I guess.

 

Right now if I think of Ren and Jonah I feel a little queezy because I don't think they are going to be together. So....I am trying not to go there.

 

If I think of Jonah with Sandro I feel slightly irritated, but mostly numb. If they end up together...meh ok.

 

I'm coming along for the ride, I'm just not sure I'm going to be happy with the destination. But Adi didn't write this to make me happy so it will end how it ends.

 

And Irri, I told you, I have been researching tattoos!! I have some nice ones for when Ren wants them.

[LitLover]

 And we did get to see Sandro embracing a model with no repercussions. So who knows...

 

 

Sandro had asked me to come over to his shop; he wanted to introduce me to some of his friends from Milan. So, when I opened the door and saw him embracing a cute guy with dark curls I immediately guessed it had to be one of them. I also recognized him as one of the guys from ‘Naked Men with Hats’.

 

Yea, they were in a room full of others and Sandro invited Jonah to meet his friends from Milan.  Too easy.  Show me a naked man, a hat, Sandro, alone in a room with him, leaning close to tell the guy something (how too feel, what to channel, whatever)..the model laughing, flirting with the hot hat maker..AND a mature Jonah, then we can talk,.  

 

(Edit: That second quote wasn't supposed to be a quote from you Irri, it was a quote from the chapter...just messed up  on me)

Edited January 26, 2015 by LitLover

[Timothy M.]

"still waiting for someone to tell me exactly when it was reasonable to expect Jonah to go and talk to Ren in those first 48 hours."

 

Any time he could stand up and talk. Not to be glib Tim, but if my partner is hammering on the door? I would answer as soon as I was able. That's what being in a relationship IS.

 

And so we're back to the problem of whether we should expect any kind of rational behavior by Jonah after he had witnessed Ren and Eric as the loving couple. If the answer is yes, then I agree all of this is Jonah's fault.

He should have been mature and clever and self-confident enough to do what is opposite of the description we got of him as the story started: quirky, irrational, impulsive Jonah, who sometimes runs when life gets too much for him. Don't say Adi didn't warn you

 

But I still maintain people in shock (who are having a mental breakdown) do not act rationally. Just like people who broke both their legs don't get up and walk. Why is that so hard to understand? The way Jonah was acting I wouldn't have been surprised to see him walk in front of a bus or a train on purpose. Yet you expect him to be able to talk to Ren in spite of him repeatedly stating he's unable to (he calls himself a coward, says he's embarrassed, feels sick at the idea). Does your opinion of when Jonah is able to talk to Ren carry more weight than Jonah's own feelings about this? If yes, then I guess we have nothing more to talk about.

 

Oh and by the way Matteo doesn't tell Jonah he should be ashamed of not having talked to Ren immediately. Matteo seems to think it was perfectly reasonable for Jonah to need some space and time, and to go back and sort things out after a month or so. But Ren needed Jonah to trust him with no limits and no hesitation. Well, good luck to him with finding someone who'll do that - and who is still an independent person.

 

I hold Ren to a higher standard than Jonah: because Ren has from the beginning been shown as the intelligent, calm, calculating person who likes to be in control and plan and do rational, reasonable things.

I still cannot understand how Ren could makes those errors, and it pisses me off that he did. I expected so much more of him, I liked him at one point, and I thought he was perfect for Jonah. My mistake - and you were right: Ren was vulnerable and stupid too, not just Jonah.

[LitLover]

 

I hold Ren to a higher standard than Jonah: because Ren has from the beginning been shown as the intelligent, calm, calculating person who likes to be in control and plan and do rational, reasonable things.

I still cannot understand how Ren could makes those errors, and it pisses me off that he did. I expected so much more of him, I liked him at one point, and I thought he was perfect for Jonah. My mistake - and you were right: Ren was vulnerable and stupid too, not just Jonah.

 

He was perceived that way yes.  Sometimes people who try to have the most control and planning feel the most out of control.  I'm a control freak too...I plan to the minute detail, if I can.  Not having a plan or an end goal leaves me slightly panicky.  Control freaks are often compensating for how out of control and vulnerable they actually feel.  How do you know that wasn't what was going on with Ren?  Ren was fragile in this relationship with Jonah.  Why was he not allowed to be?  Why is his form of fragile no less valid than Jonah's?

 

And YES, I did expect Jonah to talk to Ren at some point...before moving on to a new relationship at the very least.  He could have gone to Italy...taken time to calm himself..maybe even become friends with Sandro...do what sensible Matteo said...and then, if he wanted a relationship with Sandro, go back..deal with Ren, get those feelings out in the open and dealt with.  Yell at Ren, whatever...then and only then should he have started things with Sandro.  Doing anything else was not fair to Sandro (or any new guy for that matter), to Ren or even to Jonah.  (Just look at the mess they are in now.  Sandro is in tears, Ren is broken and Jonah is lamenting.)  

 

And if he is quirky, irrational, impulsive Jonah, why would this have suddenly changed being with Sandro?  

[Irritable1]

Matteo's definition of space and time is a bit dodgy, if Rick dragging Sandro into the mess first thing is any indication.

[LitLover]

Sleeping with and starting a relationship with Sandro before he dealt with his feelings for Ren is what I am most upset with Jonah about.  It was incredibly selfish of him. A few weeks was not enough time to get over that kind of loss by anyone's calendar.  If he had waited before doing that, and just enjoyed Sandro's support and friendship, then maybe we might be in a different place right now.  It would not be so messy, so many hearts need not have been broken.   That is where Jonah went wrong with me.  I am not sure I can forgive him for that.