Mann Ramblings Innocence & Carnality

[Carlos Hazday]

How can you say that? He comes from the worst upbringing to a man who treats him like a possession. If anyone is entitled to whine it's Nathan. He dreamed of a life with a husband who would treat him better than his dad. I can't see anything wrong with that.

 

I think it's good the truth is out and Nathan can make plans to survive this. I have a feeling Rother will be surprised.

But he's nothing but a possession! I thought we'd established that already. Nathan's not only a whiner but a fool. He's acknowledged his familiarity with double standards and arranged marriages in Victoria yet he acts like a bitch when he finds out the head of a whorehouse getting a BJ. What did he think would go on? He needs to grow some balls and forget all that romantic drivel in his head. Then he can flourish.

[Carlos Hazday]

The wedding happened in flash and I would think Nathan had enough trouble coming to grips with leaving and getting married to think about what that marriage should entail. So I don't see Nathan as a fool.

 

Rother chose to marry him. He said the vows and then proceeded to act like a husband. When exactly should Nathan have realised he was being lied to? Before or after he found his husband with his dick in someone else's mouth?

 

I think Rother can be in for a nasty surprise if he continues down this path. Nathan is not stupid and he has his pride.

 

Nathan had a lifetime to get ready for an arranged wedding and if he didn't then he's even more a fool than I thought. And what vows did they say? You're assuming they're similar to whatever you and your husband recited, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the case. More likely than not Nathan agreed to obey and respect and Rother agreed to support and care for. I'm pretty sure the wife's not an equal to the husband in this universe.

 

I do agree with you in one thing. We haven't seen the end of this. Nathan will rebound, the only question is how.

[Carlos Hazday]

Tim! No..

 

Exactly Puppi!

What do you mean, Def? Are you saying it's okay to whine? Are we talking about a kid in kindergarten or someone used to the intrigue of Victorian society?

 

Just say no to whining!

 

Just say yes to wining!

[Puppilull]

We have such a difference of opinion here... And just because you said something, doesn't mean we agreed before. Nathan seemed to interpret the vows a certain way so I based my comment on that.

[Carlos Hazday]

We have such a difference of opinion here... And just because you said something, doesn't mean we agreed before. Nathan seemed to interpret the vows a certain way so I based my comment on that.

We definitely have a difference of opinions! LOL

 

Not sure how you can say Nathan interpreted the vows a certain way? Wasn't it he who said things were entirely different from Victoria and he needed to change?

 

I can see him being surprised but his subsequent reaction (which I think was a great way for the author to hint at things to come) was silly. He's just being a drama queen!  Rother should have bent him over the desk and taken what is rightfully his at that point.

 

Mann, haven't we been in this position before? Wasn't I the lone wolf rooting for Priest at one point while all the ladies kept clamoring for his head? And to paraphrase something you said back then... this must be what Mark Arbour experienced in his discussion thread before he retired. (He'll probably scream at me for saying he's retired )

[Former Member]

Nathan had a lifetime to get ready for an arranged wedding and if he didn't then he's even more a fool than I thought. And what vows did they say? You're assuming they're similar to whatever you and your husband recited, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the case. More likely than not Nathan agreed to obey and respect and Rother agreed to support and care for. I'm pretty sure the wife's not an equal to the husband in this universe.

 

I do agree with you in one thing. We haven't seen the end of this. Nathan will rebound, the only question is how.

 

That's right, we don't know the vows. But can it be as easy as to replace Nathan for a wife? Sorry, but I would say there is a major difference. Maybe one could say it´s the different age or the different purchasing power that explain the imbalance of power. (And by the way :We still don't know how much money Nathan owns and where it comes from and how he could legally get it out of Victoria if the laws of a Victorian society are valid and he is the entitled wife. Wow, that's all very complicated) But there is another point; they are living now in Francine and not in the Francine noble society, at best upper middle class or outside the social conventions. So it's possible that totally different customs resort. And it is good tha t now Nathan is enlightened and perhaps able to make something out of it. Lyssa

[Puppilull]

Rother should have bent him over the desk and taken what is rightfully his at that point.

 

 

Oh, you mean rape him?

[Carlos Hazday]

That's right, we don't know the vows. But can it be as easy as to replace Nathan for a wife? Sorry, but I would say there is a major difference. Maybe one could say it´s the different age or the different purchasing power that explain the imbalance of power. (And by the way :We still don't know how much money Nathan owns and where it comes from and how he could legally get it out of Victoria if the laws of a Victorian society are valid and he is the entitled wife. Wow, that's all very complicated) But there is another point; they are living now in Francine and not in the Francine noble society, at best upper middle class or outside the social conventions. So it's possible that totally different customs resort. And it is good tha t now Nathan is enlightened and perhaps able to make something out of it. Lyssa

Women being considered equal to men is a very recent development in human history. Very 20th Century. Based on the technology which Mann has revealed so far, time froze in his universe before the internal combustion engine came into existance (steam punk, remember?) so it would be a society somewhat frozen in a time  equivalent to our 1800s. At that time women were second class citizens, meant to be kept pregnant and tied to the wood burning stove.

 

Their marriage was NEVER one of equals. Nathan had no say in the transaction between his father and his husband. He's property like most women were at the time.He doesn't have to give his consent to anything I think things will change and an equilibrium will be reached but that will be unusual for their society.

 

One more thing. We do know where his money came from. He saved it over time. We don't know how much he has but I don't think that's relevant. Money transfer laws are also probably irrelevant to the story. After all, Rother paid Nathan's father so he had to take money over to Victoria. I don't think his Chase debit card would work.

[Carlos Hazday]

Oh, you mean rape him?

 

If that's what you want to call it, yes. But rape's also a modern concept I don't think applies here. All those European nobles used to claim first night rights at one point but nobody called it rape back then. No consent was required from the bride.

[Former Member]

Women being considered equal to men is a very recent development in human history. Very 20th Century. Based on the technology which Mann has revealed so far, time froze in his universe before the internal combustion engine came into existance (steam punk, remember?) so it would be a society somewhat frozen in a time  equivalent to our 1800s. At that time women were second class citizens, meant to be kept pregnant and tied to the wood burning stove.

 

Their marriage was NEVER one of equals. Nathan had no say in the transaction between his father and his husband. He's property like most women were at the time.He doesn't have to give his consent to anything I think things will change and an equilibrium will be reached but that will be unusual for their society.

 

One more thing. We do know where his money came from. He saved it over time. We don't know how much he has but I don't think that's relevant. Money transfer laws are also probably irrelevant to the story. After all, Rother paid Nathan's father so he had to take money over to Victoria. I don't think his Chase debit card would work.

Sorry, but it is relevant, because it would give a clue of his status. Victorian ladies couldn`t hold own property, if they were married. So this could lead us to further conclusions. Or should I see if Nathan gets pregnant?

And yes I totally understand which epoch we are in.  

[Puppilull]

I don't feel we know enough about the societies and their laws and social rules to know just what position Nathan would expect to have. We know some of Victoria but nor so much of Francine. The women we have encountered so far doesn't seem to be chained to a stove. They work and earn money. They don't appear married either, which indicates there's no need for guardians. Unless Rother has assumed that role and we haven't been told. So just because it seems to be a 1800s type of society, we don't know if all of the society is similar. I'm pretty certain prostitution wasn't legal in most places comparable to Francine if it's supposed to be of that era. Here, it doesn't seem illegal or even frowned upon.

 

And regardless of how the laws at the time categorise it, Nathan would most definitely see it as rape.

[Former Member]

That is exactly what I mean, we still don´t know enough about Francines Customs, so we need the little clues, to get an image.

[Timothy M.]

All those European nobles used to claim first night rights at one point but nobody called it rape back then. No consent was required from the bride.

 

I seem to recall a study showing that this is a myth... Popular belief, but not true except in one or two specific cases which were later used to make it into a myth of a general custom.

[Former Member]

hic: Wilhelm Schmidt-Bleibtreu: „Jus Primae Noctis, Herrenrecht der ersten Nacht“, Ludwig Röhrscheid Verlag, Bonn 1988

[Timothy M.]

hic: Wilhelm Schmidt-Bleibtreu: „Jus Primae Noctis, Herrenrecht der ersten Nacht“, Ludwig Röhrscheid Verlag, Bonn 1988

 

Is that meant to support my claim or oppose it?

Edited March 23, 2016 by Timothy M.

[Former Member]

Is that meant to support my claim or oppse it?

That is the study, which shows, that it is a myth. Support.

[Mann Ramblings]

**sits back watching the thread, wringing hands maniacally**

 

   

[Daddydavek]

I haven't read the whole thread, but the last chapter clearly brought home the fact that Rother started out earning money in the sex trade because he had to, and became good at it and now runs his own well-established house.  It is not too hard to figure out that he is a slut...or that he went to the more repressive country to get a compliant husband that he could have to himself.  It's about him and not Nathan.  

 

Nathan is a bit more complicated than Rother anticipated.  However, I would be surprised if he surprises us as much as Carlos H seems to think may happen.....

Edited March 24, 2016 by Daddydavek

[Timothy M.]

If that's what you want to call it, yes. But rape's also a modern concept I don't think applies here.

 

And regardless of how the laws at the time categorise it, Nathan would most definitely see it as rape.

 

Carlos, I have to disagree with you here. Rape is certainly not a modern concept. You may argue that the law has been slow on naming non-consensual sex in marriages rape - and I think UK was one of the countries slowest to make the change.

 

But that males and the law do not recognize it as rape, doesn't mean a woman isn't violated by non-consensual sex when her husband takes 'what is rightfully his' by force. This is true no matter the time and age, as Puppilull points out.

 

However, I have the feeling Nathan might have preferred the physical violation compared to the mental and spiritual one he just suffered. Rother is balancing on the edge of becoming an abusive spouse.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Timothy M.

[Puppilull]

Balancing? I'd say after his verbal abuse and that shove, he's firmly on the wrong side of that line.

 

And I do believe men too see it as a violation to be forced to have sex. But I'm sure you meant to include both sexes.

[Timothy M.]

Balancing? I'd say after his verbal abuse and that shove, he's firmly on the wrong side of that line.

 

And I do believe men too see it as a violation to be forced to have sex. But I'm sure you meant to include both sexes.

 

I thought you might say that. But losing your temper is something else than willfully abusing your spouse to make them comply or lose their self-worth.

 

Yes, but we were talking within marriage here, and in previous times this only applied to men-women unions. But I guess some men might have been forced to have sex by their wifes?

 

Hmm, thinking about how to get through to Rother about his behavior I still see Samantha as Nathan's best bet. I'm sure she would have something useful to say to both men.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Timothy M.

[Puppilull]

Rother did more than lose his temper in my opinion and he has done his best to break Nathan until he thinks he's nothing but some trinket at Rother's disposal.

[Timothy M.]

Rother did more than lose his temper in my opinion and he has done his best to break Nathan until he thinks he's nothing but some trinket at Rother's disposal.

 

Now that is something we may all agree upon, I think. Hmm, does that mean I just agreed about Rother being abusive?

 

The difference in opinion may be whether Rother is justified in seeing Nathan as his 'trinket' and expect him to be nothing but an ornamental spouse. Particularly, since that would also have been Nathan's fate in Victoria if they allowed same-sex marriages.

 

I think we might also agree that it will be interesting to see what Nathan will do to change Rother's opinion.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Timothy M.

[Former Member]

Now that is something we may all agree upon, I think. Hmm, does that mean I just agreed about Rother being abusive?

 

The difference in opinion may be whether Rother is justified in seeing Nathan as his 'trinket' and expect him to be nothing but an ornamental spouse. Particularly, since that would also have been Nathan's fate in Victoria if they allowed same-sex marriages.

 

I think we might also agree that it will be interesting to see what Nathan will do to change Rother's opinion.

Who said, that this would have been his fate in Victoria? We simply do not know, can only speculate. What should have been his husband like, if he would have grown up under Victorian circumstances as Nathan, suppressed like him. But that´s just an intellectual game.

Rother: He doesn´t stand up to what is expected from a Victorian husband, being the moral head of the household, how could Nathan be expected to fulfill the female role. And by the way the of the "Angel of the house or Commander of the house is Samantha, fulfilling this female Viktorian part.

I agree Rother is abusive.

[Puppilull]

Let the record shoe we are in agreement.

 

I don't think the issue of Rother feeling justified or not is important other than as regards their relationship with the rest of society. I look more to their own private relationship.

 

They are married , but right now I can't see why Rother chose to marry. He could have employed a co-host. If he only wanted another servant, why a husband? To me, his desire to marry and a virgin at that, should tell us something. Question is what? Right now, Rother is steering their marriage to a business arrangement. I'm not sure that's what he actually wants.

 

I'm not clear on why Nathan would've been a trophy husband in Victoria too? What makes you say that?