Mann Ramblings Innocence & Carnality

[Carlos Hazday]

Here I was thinking how coincidental the article was, until I caught the date. 

LMAO!

 

I was wondering what a sex toy in Francine would look like and Google came through with that page. Couldn't resist sharing it. The Zimmerman comment just seemed to fit right in.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Carlos Hazday

[Drew Espinosa]

I really don't know what to make of Rother breaking the house rules but I am kinda glad he showed the sort of hypocrite Nathan's father truly is.

[Timothy M.]

Carlos, I think the lynch mob is partly your fault.

Mann is desperately trying to get you to say even one slightly disapproving thing about Rother. He'll get more and more outrageous in Rother's treatment of Nathan until you 'break.'

 

But at least this time you only said you liked the story twist...

 

Is that a lynch mob gathering outside the author's home? Get ready for the hate mail from the usual suspects. I just bet you're relishing this. Most excellent twist!

 

[Carlos Hazday]

Carlos, I think the lynch mob is partly your fault.

Mann is desperately trying to get you to say even one slightly disapproving thing about Rother. He'll get more and more outrageous in Rother's treatment of Nathan until you 'break.'

 

But at least this time you only said you liked the story twist...

LMAO

 

This is a game of one upmanship. I suggested a tat and he does one better by branding the boy. Gotta love it.

 

I disapprove of the way Rother's gone about displaying his possessiveness, but I'm not surprised or appalled by it. It fits the character and the feudal society in which they live. Still like Rother. As a character. He's been written in a magnificent way and his actions are entirely in character. Whether he finds redemption or not is irrelevant, the character is superb. All the damn goody-goody main characters in most stories around here, including my own, are boring after a while. It's nice to read something different. 

 

Mann's been a big influence in my writing and now I'm itching to write something with just as perverse a character. To be honest, until such a time as Nathan grows a pair, I'm not gonna like him. He better learn his lesson.

 

Ill admit the branding took me by surprise. It shouldn't have since I do know guys who have brands, but none did it against their will.

[Former Member]

I guess, we all agree about Mann`s excellent writing. That is just the reason why it effects so much in an emotional way.  I must say, this time I can not bring myself to read the last lines slowly,  because for some reason it has to much impact on me, so I let my eyes fly over the last words.

For me in someway it fits to Rothers behavior in some ways it dosen`t.  But I would have really surprised by a Nathan, who is not a victim. It is such a downward spiral and I come to the point of thinking: Who will save him - Blyth, Harston, Samantha? My bet is on Samantha, because she got the guts to stand up to Rother. But I would prefer Nathan to rescue himself.

[Drew Espinosa]

Tried staying as neutral as Switzerland on Rother, but yeah... after the branding

 

Now, it's not to say I hate Rother. As a person I dislike him, but as a character, I actually like him and find him fascinating. Huh... he's basically the Joffrey Baratheon of I&C for me

[Defiance19]

We definitely all agree on the writing. Because of it we're moved to such visceral emotions. But Mann better be hiding...

 

I really though Rother would be 'I had to show you the truth Nathan.', they'd be mad for a while but work it out... Then I thought maybe he was going to introduce Nathan to the paddle or whip as punishment fir running away..... I would have been ok with that maybe. But to brand him! Horrible. And Carlos i get what you mean. Given the whole picture, it is what Rother would do, but I still find it horrifying knowing it was common practice in that era and he had the gall to demean Nathan further. I guess I'm done romantisizing any relationship between Rother and Nathan..  I don't even know where we go from here.. Maybe Blythe will take care of him as they seem to be forging a friendship.  And on that note, when Blythe came to rescue Nathan, he did say Nathan would have been missed if he went away, maybe Blythe was talking about himself. 

 

@Tim I loved your review..  All very interesting and pertinent questions.. 

[Timothy M.]

It fits the character and the feudal society in which they live. Still like Rother. As a character. He's been written in a magnificent way and his actions are entirely in character. Whether he finds redemption or not is irrelevant, the character is superb.

 

I'm definitely with you there, Carlos. Rother is consistent in how he thinks and acts and character traits are believable both for the time and place and for his background. I do not dislike him for being possessive and proud and determined to bend Nathan to his will. He bought a husband and he will stop at nothing to keep his property. That's how I've seen it from the start and romance had nothing to do with it.

No, the only fault for which I cannot forgive him, the reason I find him a jerk, is that he did not instruct Nathan or give him a set of rules. He did nothing to make his husband understand his expectations and limits, but assumed Nathan would fit in and obey. Indeed, we know Nathan wanted to do so, but he kept getting thrown out of whack by events he had no chance to prepare for.

How could Rother have failed to understand this, when I'm sure all his employees get training and instruction and rules. Why does he see all Nathan's silly actions as rebellion when they are a cry for help? If Nathan tries to take his own life after this, will Rother see it as trying to damage his possession? Reason for more punishment?

This is why I'm interested in Harston's role, because he may be the only one able to prevent Nathan from suicide if he goes the route of depression rather than anger. Not that I think Nathan will confide in Harston, who has shown he cannot lie to Blythe, but Harston can be there to watch over Nathan and see the danger.

@Tim I loved your review..  All very interesting and pertinent questions.. 

 

Def !

Edited May 18, 2016 by Timothy M.

[Carlos Hazday]

Am I the only one who owns a metal seal with my initials? So far I've only used it on hot wax... Although the handle of mine is stone. I guess I could use it for other things also!

 

@ Tim: We're still going to disagree on Rother having any sort of obligation towards Nathan. He bought himself a toy and he could do with him as he wished!

 

Y'all should have been at Pig Dance last Saturday. My buddy was walking around the bar all night, leading a hot boy by a leash who he auctioned off to help raise funds to send my friend to the Mr Florida Sir contest next month. I'm thinking I need to start bidding during these  charity auctions so I can write about the experience!

Edited May 18, 2016 by Carlos Hazday

[Timothy M.]

@ Tim: We're still going to disagree on Rother having any sort of obligation towards Nathan. He bought himself a toy and he could do with him as he wished!

 

Why do you take my suggestion about necessary instruction as if it's Rother's obligation to Nathan? It has nothing to do with that, so don't stick that interpretation on me.

 

It's simply stupid of a master not to instruct his boy if he wants a good performance.

Rother would never have been so lax with an employee. Either he would have hired someone experienced or made sure Samantha or somebody else explained what was expected. We have had no indication Nathan has gotten any kind of instruction at all. It's like throwing someone in the deep end of a swimming pool and blaming them for drowning because they can't swim.

 

I like your staunch defence of Rother and the twists Mann puts in the story, but it would be more credible and palatable if you were able to occasionally concede others have a point too.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Timothy M.

[Carlos Hazday]

Why do you take my suggestion about necessary instruction as if it's Rother's obligation to Nathan? It has nothing to do with that, so don't stick that interpretation on me.

 

It's simply stupid of a master not to instruct his boy if he wants a good performance.

Rother would never have been so lax with an employee. Either he would have hired someone experienced or made sure Samantha or somebody else explained what was expected. We have had no indication Nathan has gotten any kind of instruction at all. It's like throwing someone in the deep end of a swimming pool and blaming them for drowning because they can't swim.

 

I like your staunch defence of Rother and the twists Mann puts in the story, but it would be more credible and palatable if you were able to occasionally concede others have a point too.

 

I guess I'm looking at them not so much as husbands as owner and slave and don't think there was a need for instructions. But you're right, Rother would have made his own life easier if he'd set some rules. Could it be because he was under the wrong impression about how compliant Nathan would be? After all, prior to the shotgun wedding, his only knowledge of the boy came from daddy dearest and who knows what kind of crap Arthur fed him.

 

Things may still change, but you've been correct all along in saying Rother sees Nathan as nothing other than property. He's treated him as such and now he's probably going to pay for it.

[Reader1810]

I guess I'm looking at them not so much as husbands as owner and slave and don't think there was a need for instructions. But you're right, Rother would have made his own life easier if he'd set some rules. Could it be because he was under the wrong impression about how compliant Nathan would be? After all, prior to the shotgun wedding, his only knowledge of the boy came from daddy dearest and who knows what kind of crap Arthur fed him.

 

Things may still change, but you've been correct all along in saying Rother sees Nathan as nothing other than property. He's treated him as such and now he's probably going to pay for it.

 

I was under the impression from stories involving a master/slave relationship that there are indeed rules a slave must follow with the rules usually being set by the master. In any case, Rother should have spelled out to Nathan what he expected of his new husband. Having said that, I was thinking about conversations that took place in earlier chapters. I believe they shed some light as to Rother's actions and state of mind. This from chapter 10 between Nathan and Rother: 

 

Why do you hate Victoria so much?”

“I despise the class hierarchy your people cling to so tightly. Monarchs, Lords, and Ladies, all born to power as if it's divine right. The people with the most, do the least to earn it.”

 

and this from chapter 27 again between Nathan Rother:

 

“By the time I was ten years old, I was orphaned and living on the streets. When you’re hungry and have no money, you’d be surprised how inventive you can be. Thievery never sat well with me, and I was too young and dirty to work in a shop, even if I’d been willing. Some of the other street rats explained prostitution to me. How it was done, how much money could be made in a short time. I was hungry and penniless. It didn’t take long to decide.

 

My first client was a Victorian lord who took a fancy to me

 

 “It wasn’t the safest existence, but after long, I met Mrs. Marple, a local madam who took me under her wing and into her home, along with a number of others. We earned our keep and learned our trade.

 

Fast forward to present day and it is Rother who is in control of the brothel the Victorian lords frequent to satisfy their unVictorian needs and desires. Their roles are reversed and he truly is in control because he knows the secrets they keep. Rother had little or no power when he was a young and now that he does, he holds it tightly in an iron fist. I'm betting that after being thrown out of the brothel, he made a pact with himself that he would never be under anyone's control ever again. This would explain why it always seems to be his way or look out, the consequences are not going to be pretty...

 

Branding Nathan is definitely overkill in my view, but I can see where Rother is coming from with his need to show everyone that he is in charge and is not to be toyed with. Having his staff gossiping erodes Rother's authority and that's just not acceptable as far as he is concerned. How Nathan will handle this turn of events will either make him stronger or break him in half. I hope it's the former - for all concerned. 

Edited May 18, 2016 by Reader1810

[Drew Espinosa]

Fast forward to present day and it is Rother who is in control of the brothel the Victorian lords frequent to satisfy their unVictorian needs and desires. Their roles are reversed and he truly is in control because he knows the secrets they keep. Rother had little or no power when he was a young and now that he does, he holds it tightly in an iron fist. I'm betting that after being thrown out of the brothel, he made a pact with himself that he would never be under anyone's control ever again. This would explain why it always seems to be his way or look out, the consequences are not going to be pretty...

 

Branding Nathan is definitely overkill in my view, but I can see where Rother is coming from with his need to show everyone that he is in charge and is not to be toyed with. Having his staff gossiping erodes Rother's authority and that's just not acceptable as far as he is concerned. How Nathan will handle turn of events will either make him stronger or break him in half. I hope it's the former - for all concerned. 

Why do I have to be out of likes now? :heart:

 

Reader, this is a wonderful analysis of Rother, and I now have a greater appreciation for him as a character.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Drew Espinosa

[Reader1810]

Why do I have to be out of likes now? :heart:

 

Reader, this is a wonderful analysis of Rother, and I now have a greater appreciation for him as a character.

Thanks Drew. Though I have to say, I am very glad that the chapters are short because it made tracking down the references I used much easier to find. 

[Defiance19]

Why do I have to be out of likes now? :heart:

 

Reader, this is a wonderful analysis of Rother, and I now have a greater appreciation for him as a character.

I agree. Reader broke this down very nicely.. But to Tim's point, the branding or any need to assert ownership or authority, by force or otherwise would have been negated simply by instructing Nathan of his role. Had that been done and Nathan was not conforming, then I would likely have no quarrel with Rother for any action he took.. 

[dughlas]

I agree. Reader broke this down very nicely.. But to Tim's point, the branding or any need to assert ownership or authority, by force or otherwise would have been negated simply by instructing Nathan of his role. Had that been done and Nathan was not conforming, then I would likely have no quarrel with Rother for any action he took.. 

Of course that being said then we be reading an entirely different story.

[Reader1810]

I agree. Reader broke this down very nicely.. But to Tim's point, the branding or any need to assert ownership or authority, by force or otherwise would have been negated simply by instructing Nathan of his role. Had that been done and Nathan was not conforming, then I would likely have no quarrel with Rother for any action he took.. 

Good point. As I said to Carlos, even master/slave relationships have rules so Rother should have either told Nathan himself, had Samantha do it or given him a list of rules in writing. I still might let this slide as Rother's relationships since the age of 10 have all been business related.  I doubt he even knows how to properly conduct himself in a real marital relationship. 

[Carlos Hazday]

I was under the impression from stories involving a master/slave relationship that there are indeed rules a slave must follow with the rules usually being set by the master. In any case, Rother should have spelled out to Nathan what he expected of his new husband. Having said that, I was thinking about conversations that took place in earlier chapters. I believe they shed some light as to Rother's actions and state of mind. This from chapter 10 between Nathan and Rother: 

 

Why do you hate Victoria so much?”

“I despise the class hierarchy your people cling to so tightly. Monarchs, Lords, and Ladies, all born to power as if it's divine right. The people with the most, do the least to earn it.”

 

and this from chapter 27 again between Nathan Rother:

 

“By the time I was ten years old, I was orphaned and living on the streets. When you’re hungry and have no money, you’d be surprised how inventive you can be. Thievery never sat well with me, and I was too young and dirty to work in a shop, even if I’d been willing. Some of the other street rats explained prostitution to me. How it was done, how much money could be made in a short time. I was hungry and penniless. It didn’t take long to decide.

 

My first client was a Victorian lord who took a fancy to me

 

 “It wasn’t the safest existence, but after long, I met Mrs. Marple, a local madam who took me under her wing and into her home, along with a number of others. We earned our keep and learned our trade.

 

Fast forward to present day and it is Rother who is in control of the brothel the Victorian lords frequent to satisfy their unVictorian needs and desires. Their roles are reversed and he truly is in control because he knows the secrets they keep. Rother had little or no power when he was a young and now that he does, he holds it tightly in an iron fist. I'm betting that after being thrown out of the brothel, he made a pact with himself that he would never be under anyone's control ever again. This would explain why it always seems to be his way or look out, the consequences are not going to be pretty...

 

Branding Nathan is definitely overkill in my view, but I can see where Rother is coming from with his need to show everyone that he is in charge and is not to be toyed with. Having his staff gossiping erodes Rother's authority and that's just not acceptable as far as he is concerned. How Nathan will handle this turn of events will either make him stronger or break him in half. I hope it's the former - for all concerned. 

 You're correct about establishing rules, but that applies when the sub gives consent. This is not the case here.

 

Excellent commentary.

[Reader1810]

 You're correct about establishing rules, but that applies when the sub gives consent. This is not the case here.

 

Excellent commentary.

Okay, I see you're point and thank you.

 

I'm just going to chalk it up to Rother being a very smart and astute business man but due to his upbringing, he is a social misfit when it comes to what should be a personal relationship.

[Timothy M.]

You're correct about establishing rules, but that applies when the sub gives consent. This is not the case here.

Excellent commentary.

 

Hm, i hadn't thought about it like that, and perhaps this universe does not have anything like the dom/sub contract and safe words we expect in such relationships. Another point is that Nathan never begged in the branding scene. He cried Rother, don't do this! but where was the Please one might expect? Would it have made a difference or not?

 

Edit: He did actually cry No! Please! when he realized what Rother meant to do. It didn't help...

 

Good point. As I said to Carlos, even master/slave relationships have rules so Rother should have either told Nathan himself, had Samantha do it or given him a list of rules in writing. I still might let this slide as Rother's relationships since the age of 10 have all been business related.  I doubt he even knows how to properly conduct himself in a real marital relationship. 

 

Okay, I see your point and thank you.

I'm just going to chalk it up to Rother being a very smart and astute business man but due to his upbringing, he is a social misfit when it comes to what should be a personal relationship.

 

But the point is this whole marriage is much more like a business deal for Rother because he bought a 'husband' to be his toy. That's why I find it so difficult to understand his failure to educate Nathan properly. But Carlos has a point about him perhaps being misled by Arthur (who's certainly been punished for that). Rother does say he agrees with Nathan's Victorian upbringing in relation to obeying and adhering to duty.

 

From ch. 37:

“You’re offended far too easily. Perhaps I overestimated your ability to conform, which is odd. Victorians are well known for following dictates without reservation.”

“You are my spouse and you will do your duty as you were taught. At least that uptight Victorian standard I can agree with.”

 

 

About the brand size: It's huge !  almost four centimeters in diameter.

 

Reply from Mann Ramblings (author)

as a brass stamp typically used for sealing/signing letters in wax, I see the stamp being about 1.5 inches in diameter. A circle with Rother's legal initials carved into it.

 

I imagined it as 1-2 cm (0.5 inch).

I also imagine Rother kissing the brand with glee every time he fucks Nathan. that might be the biggest turn-off ever.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Timothy M.

[Carlos Hazday]

 

The story so far has so far provided a scathing view of how twisted society becomes when too much emphasis is placed on appearances and status. Now you show us the damaging effect worrying about what others think can have. Great social commentary wrapped up in a good ole fairy tale. Who needs an evil step-mother when your own dad's around. Keep it up buddy!

 

Since we're quoting from previous chapters...

 

The quote was my review for Chapter 7 and Mann agreed with my understanding of what he was trying to portray. How about we forget all about evil Rother and stupid Nathan for a bit and concentrate on the overall theme I see in the most recent events: We're all the product of our upbringing, and changing what we've become due to our past is extremely difficult.

 

Both main characters are trapped in constructs shaped by their experiences and act accordingly. They are both slaves to the circumstances and what they've experienced. But I'll give Nathan credit for attempting to adapt and break free of the chains which have enslaved him to Victorian mores of conduct. Is there redemption for Rother in the future? Will Nathan's growth outpace that of his husband?

 

Or am I searching for hidden meaning where there's none? Maybe the author just likes to get a rise out of his readers.

[Timothy M.]

Or am I searching for hidden meaning where there's none? Maybe the author just likes to get a rise out of his readers.

 

I believe you may have hit the nail on the head, if you look at Mann's replies to the reviews.

 

But it may be a much appreciated side-effect of his plans with the story...

[dughlas]

I've no qualms with the telling/writing of the tale. I think that Nathan despite some missteps is/was further along in adapting to his new circumstances. I know that you Carlos, would like him to grow a pair but what I see is that his mode of rebellion is primarily passive/aggressive. Open rebellion was not going to work against his father and it seems neither will it work with Rother. Rother seems to be intent in breaking Nathan to his will by any means available. I believe the flies and honey approach would be a better solution. Nathan has far more to offer than acting as mere arm candy and bed warmer. More the pity, Rother seems unable to see that in him. I fear Vivian will view the brand with bitter amusement while Blythe and Samantha will exhibit some horror. We know that Samantha was angry with the disregard of the rules. When she comes to realize that its purpose was basically intended to drive home the point to Nathan that he is simply a piece of chattel with no means of escape or safe harbor whence to run.  A view Rother seems to hold of everyone related to the House ... there is no place of refuge other than under his ownership. Delaga House is a world onto itself ruled by a less than benign despot.

[Carlos Hazday]

Anybody wanna speculate about what comes next?

[Timothy M.]

Anybody wanna speculate about what comes next?

 

I'll bite:

 

Nathan pukes all over Rother and passes out from the pain.

He wakes up with Harston tending him.

Samatha has a fit and yells at Rother. Afterwards, she tries to talk to Nathan.

Blythe strangles Vivian.