Salted or unsalted stories

[Talo Segura]

It appears to me there are two types of stories on this site. There are the stories interlaced with sexual encounters and there are the others.

The stories interlaced with sexual encounters usually depict graphic couplings, to a lesser or greater degree. The categorisation if you like, is that these stories include sexual encounters which perhaps have no relevance to the story in the same way that the characters waking up, getting dressed and having breakfast has little revelance. In this category of stories the protagonist will invariably wake up with an erection and may or may not have sex.

It's as if the label gay means stories include these often mundane scenes. That is not to say anything about including sexual encounters or not, graphic or not. Simply a significant number of stories are in the category salted crisps and some others crisps without salt!

How many would be authors write in the category salted crisps. Nice stories sprinkled with gay sex, and how many authors write stories which are basically unsalted even if they include a sex scene it's there as an essential part rather than to improve the taste or somehow fit the gay story mode?

[lawfulneutralmage]

For me gay fiction contains stuff that "regular" fiction (usually) does not contain. This is first of all the fact that the protagonist is queer i.e. non-"standard". So, I expect a gay site to depict gay/queer protagonists' lives and experiences. Sex is part of that. A well written sexual encounter is fun to read and why should it not be as "normal" as hetero sex scenes? It is my "normal", at least.

If I understand you correctly, the question is why so many authors feel it necessary to include so much sex to tell a (good) story? Please correct me, if I am wrong, I will continue my post on the basis of this being the question to be discussed.

If we look at a broader audience, I doubt very "salty" stories would find much of a market. But is this the reason why this site (and others) exist? To cater for a market? As far as I know, there might be members who have a professional literary goal, and there are those who have made a successful jump to become a professional author, but I would wager the majority of authors on this site writes for their own enjoyment, not for commercial or critical success. If others enjoy what one writes, the better! In the process one can learn something. I certainly did, and I am looking forward to putting my next story out here.

Assuming now that most authors write for their own enjoyment and fellow readers enjoy it too, then let us look at motivations. Excluding stories which are based on personal experience, when one writes a story, one wishes the characters to do or experience something one cannot do oneself. Any objections to this statement, anyone?

I would even expand on what one finds in a lot of stories apart from sex:

First, good looking characters (guilty ). I look for stories by tags, and I have found only a couple of stories in which the MC is not good looking and only one in which the MC is a proper minger.

Second, youth and, very dominantly, teenagers. The site is full of stores about these annoying little brats.

Therefore, I would conclude the stories we find here reflect what people would like to be, young and good-looking, and have, lots of sex. Maybe that is worth scientific literary/psychological research.

Edited November 29, 2024 by lawfulneutralmage
grammar, expanded explanation

[W_L]

Too much salt is bad for you, but sex in stories are just for fun  

To me, it really depends on the type of story I am writing and what kind of characters I have designed. For my recent novel, Of Pride and Power, I had an intersex male character, who I explicitly mentioned has an interest in BDSM (Including referencing several books on the subjects in the opening chapters). Does that mean the story is all sex? Nope, it's just an attribute of the main character. A fluid Dom/sub omega was a character I haven't seen in any fiction, so it made sex to write sex scenes to exhibit this aspect. To me, it's not salt, but pepper to add a little spice to characterization.

As for other stories, I've written non-sexual stories as well, mainly in regards to characters in various scenarios interacting with their surroundings and an incidental sexual orientation of being gay with unique needs and motivations. My favorite early story that I wrote based on my writer's inclination is A Dreamer without a dream for the simple reason that it was conceptualized and executed to tell a story. It's not perfect by any means or stretch of the imagination, but I was happiest writing it.

I conceive therefore I write. It's not always ideal, but it tells a story.

 

[Mike Carss]

My preferred gay fiction is where the "gay" is downplayed -- the protagonist just happens to be gay. It's only one aspect of their character, and not the dominate one. Sex scenes are fine if it progresses the story in some way, but if it's just to be titillating, I'd rather read smut.

In my own writing, if characters have sex, the scene fades to black and is left the reader's imagination.

Using your salt analogy, my crisps are pretty plain. 😁

[LJCC]

I'd like to think that the current story I'm writing involves sophisticated smut, or literary erection, where the sex scenes tie into the plot, used as a plot devise not to arouse but to entrench a double-fisted lesson or meaning to the situation. Because at the onset and creation of Nifty, the majority of the stories that use SEX as the PLOT itself, written by authors pertaining to gay sex, it's very rare to find stories in the LGBT community where sex scenes are part of the entire narration, not used as a ''wank-off'' method but used to pertain to an essential character development or theme to the story.

There are stories like that; make no mistake, I could name authors who wrote LGBT books with literary erections, but there's so few. Our hetero-counterparts have an abundant resource in that field because they love hiding the plot in sex scenes.

For example:

Roddy Doyle's The Woman Who Walked Into Doors, where Spencer (the protagonist) relates that at the beginning of her marriage with Charlo, she felt that they were in love. Soon, however, she became trapped in a vicious cycle of abuse, becoming too physically and emotionally weakened from being beaten to stand up for herself.

Quote

I couldn’t get enough of him. I was tired and sore but I didn’t care. I didn’t want to sleep. I wanted the ache. I wanted him in me, all the time. His weight on top of me. I wanted to squeeze him in further and further. I wanted to watch his face. I wanted his sweat to drop onto me. I wanted to drop mine on him. I got on top of him. I’d never done it before. I couldn’t really believe it; I was doing this. I was inventing something. I held him and put him in. He felt deeper in me. I’ll never forget it. I was in charge and he liked it. I held his hands down. He pretended he was trying to break free. I let my *** touch his face. He went mad; he bucked. He split me in two. I pushed down. I couldn’t believe it. One of his fingers flicked over my bum. I did it to him. He lifted and heaved. I couldn’t believe it. There was no end to it, no end to the new things. He did something. I copied him. I did something. He did it back. He took me from behind. I pushed back, forced more of him into me. I sucked him. He licked me. I made him come on my stomach. He sucked my toes. The whole room rocked and Mrs. Doyle smiled at us every morning.

 J.G. Ballard's Crash, told through the eyes of James Ballard, a young man who, after being involved in a car crash, finds a friend in another man who is obsessed with accidents of this type. Ballard starts to idolize the man as he participates in his hobby, following him from one car crash to the next. Ballard becomes obsessed himself, as the effects of his own accident bleed into every aspect of his life, from his relationship with his wife to his pursuit of extramarital affairs.

Quote

A loose hierarchy of prostitutes occupied the airport and its suburbs – within the hotels, in discotheques where music was never played, conveniently sited near the bedrooms for the thousands of transit passengers who never left the airport; a second echelon working the terminal building concourses and restaurant mezzanines; and beyond these an army of freelances renting rooms on a daily basis in the apartment complexes along the motorway.

We reached the multi-storey car-park behind the air-freight building. I drove around the canted concrete floors of this oblique and ambiguous building and parked in an empty bay among the cars on the sloping roof. After tucking the banknotes away in her silver handbag, the woman lowered her preoccupied face across my lap, expertly releasing my zip with one hand. She began to work systematically at my penis with both mouth and hand, spreading her arms comfortably across my knees. I flinched from the pressure of her hard elbows …

As she brought my penis to life I looked down at her strong back, at the junction between the contours of her shoulders demarked by the straps of her brassiere and the elaborately decorated instrument panel of this American car, between her thick buttock in my left hand and the pastel-shaded binnacles of the clock and the speedometer. Encouraged by these hooded dials, my left ring-finger moved towards her anus.

Michael Onjaatje's In the Skin of a Lion. Well, this author's a wizard with his words. Reading his sex scenes just makes sense somehow.

Quote

They were sitting on the floor leaning into the corner of the room, her mouth on his nipple, her hand moving his dick slowly. An intricate science, his whole body imprisoned there, a ship in a bottle. I’m going to come. Come in my mouth. Moving forward, his fingers pulling back her hair like torn silk, he ejaculated, disappearing into her. She crooked her finger, motioning, and he bent down and put his mouth on hers. He took it, the white character, and they passed it back and forth between them till it no longer existed, till they didn’t know who had him like a lost planet somewhere in the body.

Glenn Savan's White Palace, which was made into a movie, has my favorite sex scene, depicting in this scene how Max is infertile. 

Quote

Nora entered the living room naked, a bad idea with guests in the house, and from the weave of her walk he could see how drunk she was. She got into bed beside him and turned unceremoniously upon her back. Max wasn’t sure if this contained a sexual invitation or not. Such complex passivity on her part was unknown to him— except for those times when he started things rolling by applying his mouth to her. This he began to do, swiftly losing himself in the flowery complexities of her labia, until her thighs tightened in refusal and she sat up, taking his face between her hands. “Just fuck me,” she said.
She lay back down and waited.
“Right now?”
“Yes.” She waited stoically, like a good Victorian wife. She felt abnormally tight as he entered her. And then there was a further surprise; she was silent. He thought this might be in deference to Bob and Judy down the hall, but that didn’t explain what her eyes were doing open, or why the look in them was so liquid and beseeching.
“Max,” she said, just as he was starting to come apart against his climax. “Max, I have to tell you…”
“What?” he managed to say.
“I just wish…”
“What?”
“I just wish we could have a baby.”
For an irrational moment he wished it too. And then he spurted his useless seed.

If only gay writers wrote more where sex isn't used to ejaculate your readers, I swear, I'd be buying books like these on the market. I know smut exists, but graphic scenes after graphic scenes can be oh so exhausting. I want a Lord of the Rings quality of writing, with a sex scene of Frodo and Sam nuttin' on each other because they know it might be the last time they see each other, kind of sex scene. I don't even want a heavily graphic sex scene, just a SLIGHTLY graphic sex scene in a paragraph, perhaps. I mean, let's face it, those two hobbits were fruity gay.

I remember reading this story—the end had the last sex scene between two lovers—and it was so graphic but heartbreaking at the same time because, as a reader, you know it was the last time they'd be seeing each other. Like, as a reader, you know it's final.

If only they were two gay characters, I swear, I'd be wanking off and crying at the same time.

[Jason Rimbaud]

In the early 2000's until September 2002, all the stories I posted on Nifty had zero sex or the sex happened off page. Then I stopped posting anything until a few months ago. 

And maybe like the commenters above me said, we write characters who have experiences that we don't or can't have and wished we did. In my mid-twenties and early thirties I was literally a whore and didn't need to write about sex. If I were to have written down my normal encounters in a month no one would have believed them anyway. 

But now I'm fifty, married, and having less sex than I did when I was sixteen. So every current story, total of six, that I have written in the last two years are beyond erotica and went straight to smut, penthouse letters style descriptions of sex. Granted, the sex fits the narrative journey of the protagonists but I didn't have to include the sex, but damn was it fun to write. I even tried my hand at some straight sex scenes, which I'm sure any straight person will find humorous because the last time I was with a woman,'s say the years hadn't hit the 9's yet. 

I didn't start writing sex scenes until one of my characters walked into a bathroom and saw a glory hole, then one thing led to another and two characters are rawdoggin each other without any lube. Not sure how it happened but once I set the tone for those characters in that world, the following stories demanded I continue the trend.

And if I ever get around to posting them, I'm sure many on this site wouldn't like them. I'm not going for literary rewards or the great american novel with a bunch of flowery words and grand gestures, I am writing for a horny audience of one who has an off center sense of humor.

Only two people from this site has even read portions of the stories, and I might not ever post anything. But if I do, you'll be able to see a salty, spicy, pointless story like you've never seen before with a few good plot pots, fun characterization, and world building that spans over twenty years. 

As a reader, not a fan of sex scenes, mostly because of "dirty talk" which never rings true for me. My dirty talk consists of blurting out random facts that throws off our rhythm. Did you know that penguins give their prospective mate a rock when they want to copulate? Trust me, even with a fellow nerd, that kind of "dirty talk" doesn't work for many.  

And now that I didn't answer your question or offer any insight, I'll slink off to my darkened bedroom and write some more sex scenes.  Interesting point for sure. 

 

[ChromedOutCortex]

On 11/29/2024 at 8:48 AM, lawfulneutralmage said:

For me gay fiction contains stuff that "regular" fiction (usually) does not contain. This is first of all the fact that the protagonist is queer i.e. non-"standard". So, I expect a gay site to depict gay/queer protagonists' lives and experiences. Sex is part of that. A well written sexual encounter is fun to read and why should it not be as "normal" as hetero sex scenes? It is my "normal", at least.

If I understand you correctly, the question is why so many authors feel it necessary to include so much sex to tell a (good) story? Please correct me, if I am wrong, I will continue my post on the basis of this being the question to be discussed.

If we look at a broader audience, I doubt very "salty" stories would find much of a market. But is this the reason why this site (and others) exist? To cater for a market? As far as I know, there might be members who have a professional literary goal, and there are those who have made a successful jump to become a professional author, but I would wager the majority of authors on this site writes for their own enjoyment, not for commercial or critical success. If others enjoy what one writes, the better! In the process one can learn something. I certainly did, and I am looking forward to putting my next story out here.

Assuming now that most authors write for their own enjoyment and fellow readers enjoy it too, then let us look at motivations. Excluding stories which are based on personal experience, when one writes a story, one wishes the characters to do or experience something one cannot do oneself. Any objections to this statement, anyone?

I would even expand on what one finds in a lot of stories apart from sex:

First, good looking characters (guilty ). I look for stories by tags, and I have found only a couple of stories in which the MC is not good looking and only one in which the MC is a proper minger.

Second, youth and, very dominantly, teenagers. The site is full of stores about these annoying little brats.

Therefore, I would conclude the stories we find here reflect what people would like to be, young and good-looking, and have, lots of sex. Maybe that is worth scientific literary/psychological research.

What constitutes a good looking character? Would you want to see the character described, or would you rather fill in the blanks.

I asked this question once before, and was told to describe some basic attributes but let the reader fill in the blanks - and for the most part, that's what I've been trying to do. I'm afraid if I were to describe my characters fully, they'd describe my partner. 🙂

As people from different ethnicities, shapes, sizes and color read stories doesn't it make sense to describe the character generally?

[ChromedOutCortex]

Interesting topic - I'm not opposed to sex in stories, but for me it needs to blend into the story. It needs to be a part of the story, not something random.

In one of my stories, The Dreamer, both characters have sex and it's their first time (presumably) but rather than describe it I only suggest what they will do (i.e., they took off their clothes and stared at each other, they fell into bed, etc.,). I'd rather read about the subtly leading to the act rather than the act and have that mental image in my mind of what their first time must have felt like.

In one of my other stories, which I've just started to post, there are only a few sex scenes -- but even then, not hardcore stuff -- but enough to get the readers imagination moving.

[Krista]

6 hours ago, ChromedOutCortex said:

What constitutes a good looking character? Would you want to see the character described, or would you rather fill in the blanks.

I asked this question once before, and was told to describe some basic attributes but let the reader fill in the blanks - and for the most part, that's what I've been trying to do. I'm afraid if I were to describe my characters fully, they'd describe my partner. 🙂

As people from different ethnicities, shapes, sizes and color read stories doesn't it make sense to describe the character generally?

I allow for guidance in my writing. I don't do it all in one sitting, like a physical stat-sheet you'd find on a sports roster.

Example: Ty is 6'3", with broad shoulders, more narrow at his waist. His blond hair brightened in direct sunlight, his smile perfect and white when he chose to show it to the world. Shirtless, he had a light dusting of darker blond hair between his defined pecs, that trails down his eight pack, disappearing beneath his shorts, where his eight inch... you know what, you know where.. is, his best feature being his toned ass topping a thick set of hairy thigs... and all that and so on. In one paragraph you have told us all about Ty's physical stature, there is no surprises... nothing there left to learn. The only thing we have left to know about Ty, is his personality and what makes him tick. After that gets developed, then we have nothing to learn. Also, people tend to forget such things if told early, so unless you're repetitive in your descriptions, you've wasted words in the beginning as it is. 

The only one that's worse, is the standing in front of the mirror to describe the main character to the reader in first person stories. 

I much rather would like the Author show me what their characters look like through subtle and distinct glimpses over time. I want to grow in that knowledge as I get to know the characters all around. So, sprinkle in character flaws, important character building moments, personality, everything that rounds them out and sets them apart from one another then along the way, add physical characteristics to them as well. Make it subtle, but important enough to catch a reader's eye. You can build an entire person that way, down to freckles, the shape of lips, all the same way - I just think it is done better, if done organically and not forced into one or two paragraphs.

There are exceptions of course, with anything. If the physical appearance is plot important, as in.. if you were to describe the Beast in Beauty and the Beast. We do need to know some physical characteristics, so that we can share the fear and tension Belle would feel upon seeing him the first time. But good writing, would give a glimpse of that, just enough for an impact. Then make him truly beastly with his character development overtaking his physical form. So when the softening of his beastly manner happens, you can describe what you see in the Beast, that you were too scared of before.

One shouldn't tell the readers anything outright, showing is far more rewarding if done properly. 

And, I'm rambling, now so I'll hush. lol. 

Edited December 1, 2024 by Krista

[ChromedOutCortex]

5 minutes ago, Krista said:

I allow for guidance in my writing. I don't do it all in one sitting, like a physical stat-sheet you'd find on a sports roster.

Example: Ty is 6'3", with broad shoulders, more narrow at his waist. His blond hair brightened in direct sunlight, his smile perfect and white when he chose to show it to the world. Shirtless, he had a light dusting of darker blond hair between his defined pecs, that trails down his eight pack, disappearing beneath his shorts, where his eight inch... you know what, you know where.. is, his best feature being his toned ass topping a thick set of hairy thigs... and all that and so on. In one paragraph you have told us all about Ty's physical stature, there is no surprises... nothing there left to learn. The only thing we have left to know about Ty, is his personality and what makes him tick. After that gets developed, then we have nothing to learn. Also, people tend to forget such things if told early, so unless you're repetitive in your descriptions, you've wasted words in the beginning as it is. 

The only one that's worse, is the standing in front of the mirror to describe the main character to the reader in first person stories. 

I much rather would like the Author show me what their characters look like through subtle and distinct glimpses over time. I want to grow in that knowledge as I get to know the characters all around. So, sprinkle in character flaws, important character building moments, personality, everything that rounds them out and sets them apart from one another then along the way, add physical characteristics to them as well. Make it subtle, but important enough to catch a reader's eye. You can build an entire person that way, down to freckles, the shape of lips, all the same way - I just think it is done better, if done organically and not forced into one or two paragraphs.

There are exceptions of course, with anything. If the physical appearance is plot important, as in.. if you were to describe the Beast in Beauty and the Beast. We do need to know some physical characteristics, so that we can share the fear and tension Belle would feel upon seeing him the first time. But good writing, would give a glimpse of that, just enough for an impact. Then make him truly beastly with his character development overtaking his physical form. So when the softening of his beastly manner happens, you can describe what you see in the Beast, that you were too scared of before.

One shouldn't tell the readers anything outright, showing is far more rewarding if done properly. 

And, I'm rambling, now so I'll hush. lol. 

Thank you for sharing this. It is an interesting perspective. I'm working on another story, and will try and put subtle descriptions through the story as they make sense.

[Krista]

On 11/28/2024 at 2:07 AM, Talo Segura said:

It appears to me there are two types of stories on this site. There are the stories interlaced with sexual encounters and there are the others.

The stories interlaced with sexual encounters usually depict graphic couplings, to a lesser or greater degree. The categorisation if you like, is that these stories include sexual encounters which perhaps have no relevance to the story in the same way that the characters waking up, getting dressed and having breakfast has little revelance. In this category of stories the protagonist will invariably wake up with an erection and may or may not have sex.

It's as if the label gay means stories include these often mundane scenes. That is not to say anything about including sexual encounters or not, graphic or not. Simply a significant number of stories are in the category salted crisps and some others crisps without salt!

How many would be authors write in the category salted crisps. Nice stories sprinkled with gay sex, and how many authors write stories which are basically unsalted even if they include a sex scene it's there as an essential part rather than to improve the taste or somehow fit the gay story mode?

I've been on the fence about responding to this, as I'm a little confused at wording and intent behind the post. I wouldn't over generalize the writing here, into sex that's plotless and sex with plot. Or unsalted vs salted? Either way, there is more to a lot of the writing here that goes well beyond sex.

There's also not a model in gay fiction where sex is required, or there isn't a "gay story mode," that is a guide that's been followed in order to be included as gay fiction or gay writing. Aside from the fact that characters belong in some form within LGBTQ+ or Bi-curious/homo erotic sort of characterization. 

Most people just write what they want, if it contains sex it contains sex. If sex is the plot, then that's the plot. There's definitely more than 'two' types of stories on this site though. 

Some stories naturally leans into sex in the writing, romances for example. Romance is also by far the most written genre here, either general romance, or stories with romantic inclusion within the plot or story to some degree. If romance is involved, then affection and sex is likely going to follow in some aspect. Even then, to say something is either sex with plot, or sex without plot, is more of an individualized assessment based solely on what the person has read and concluded. With that said, it isn't fair to categorize or attempt to pigeonhole stories based on those assessments, then make a statement that puts a blanket over all the stories here one way or the other.   

The over generalization of anything of this magnitude where multiple people (hundreds) are sharing their stories isn't something that should be done. It tends to leave people thinking their worth has been a bit diminished or there is an apparent flaw here that needs adjusting. 

Edited December 1, 2024 by Krista

[lawfulneutralmage]

10 hours ago, ChromedOutCortex said:

What constitutes a good looking character? Would you want to see the character described, or would you rather fill in the blanks.

I asked this question once before, and was told to describe some basic attributes but let the reader fill in the blanks - and for the most part, that's what I've been trying to do. I'm afraid if I were to describe my characters fully, they'd describe my partner. 🙂

As people from different ethnicities, shapes, sizes and color read stories doesn't it make sense to describe the character generally?

There is nothing more I could add to @Krista's answer as far as writing is concerned, just maybe a bit more encouragement to try it.

Based on my experiences with "Special Circumstances", not giving descriptions but hints works absolutely fine! I had to be "nudged" by @Mikiesboy to drop my descriptions. Let me now nudge you. The discussion in chapter ten is all about how people have interpreted the character differently even with the hints I gave.  You don't need to read the story to follow the comments. Have a look, it was really excellent to see the writing advice and its effect "in action": https://gayauthors.org/story/lawfulneutralmage/special-circumstances/10?tab=chaptercomments&page=1#replies

Just to say I love blond, blue-eyed guys. While there are of course other hot men, my MCs will probably always be of that stock. And yes, my hubby is Scandinavian ...

My role-playing characters are of a certain type, too. When we are going to make new characters, it has become a running gag, how "[Law]'s character will differ in looks from the the previous one" and people making bets. Once, I made a grumpy dwarf, quel surprise!

But honestly, don't worry if somebody images your MC differently than you ... why not? It's actually great fun!

[lawfulneutralmage]

4 hours ago, Krista said:

The over generalization of anything of this magnitude where multiple people (hundreds) are sharing their stories isn't something that should be done. It tends to leave people thinking their worth has been a bit diminished or there is an apparent flaw here that needs adjusting. 

I hadn't considered that. I must admit, I felt a bit in need of explaining, maybe I felt defensive.

Thank you!

[Talo Segura]

4 hours ago, Krista said:

There's also not a model in gay fiction where sex is required, or there isn't a "gay story mode," that is a guide that's been followed in order to be included as gay fiction or gay writing.

I'm not too sure about that. There certainly used to be circa late nineties and carrying on past the millennium. The beginning of gay story sites which developed the graphic sex porn material into sex with a plot, and the model was story peppered with sex, if not quite sex in every chapter, nearly. Today, that model is still there. Even more so if you look at any foreign gay story site, probably why you get a dusting of foreign writers here, because the site hosts stories which don't follow that model, but the model exists or existed.

[empath]

On 11/29/2024 at 9:11 PM, mcarss said:

My preferred gay fiction is where the "gay" is downplayed -- the protagonist just happens to be gay. It's only one aspect of their character, and not the dominate one. Sex scenes are fine if it progresses the story in some way, but if it's just to be titillating, I'd rather read smut.

In my own writing, if characters have sex, the scene fades to black and is left the reader's imagination.

Using your salt analogy, my crisps are pretty plain. 😁

I came out in my early forties.  I am still in my early forties.    

I read more wild and graphic stories before I found the courage to live honestly, but it was a part of a forbidden fantasy for me.  I still find stories like that exciting.  But now that I am trying to find a path forward for my life as a gay man in a committed mixed-orientation relationship, I am hungry for stories that show real queer lives being lived well.  I am never going to be a sex hound or a horny teenager, but I will always be a middle age to aging gay man.  

I was shocked by how difficult it is to find well-written, normalized, queer writing outside the romance or erotica genres.  I guess my new fantasy is living in a world where being LGBTQIA+ isn’t a thing we disclose as a warning in a preface, because it won’t shock or offend potential readers.  

Keep in mind that I was told I looked “so straight” at my first pride parade experience, so...

I deviated from the question a bit.  Short answer is I prefer stories that have meaning beyond the orgasm, unless I’m in that sort of mood.  

 

[W_L]

6 hours ago, Talo Segura said:

I'm not too sure about that. There certainly used to be circa late nineties and carrying on past the millennium. The beginning of gay story sites which developed the graphic sex porn material into sex with a plot, and the model was story peppered with sex, if not quite sex in every chapter, nearly. Today, that model is still there. Even more so if you look at any foreign gay story site, probably why you get a dusting of foreign writers here, because the site hosts stories which don't follow that model, but the model exists or existed.

Depends on the foreign nation to be honest, I know for web novels in Asia with focus on BL, they have their unique aesthetics when it comes to their version of gay fiction. Though most gay male fiction is written and enjoyed by women, gay men like me enjoy it too (Fujoshi do outnumber Fudanshi). 

In the past, a lot of BL has the NC (Non-consent) sex, the trend has been moving towards more romantic relationships with less emphasis on the sex (moe for the win). Like Sasaki to Miyano, the story matters more for the character realization of their feelings for each other than the sexual position (The authors made a joke about it during a recent chapter of the manga, the seme/uke (Top/bottom) split isn't realistic for relationships.)

In terms of more repressive censors, like Chinese People's Republic, for instance, the BL is also far more tamed and emblematic of the culture that it comes from. Yes, you can have gay sex, but it needs to be written using analogies and oblique language. On the other hand, the authors attack certain things like homophobia and false perception by blaming it on information from the West, feeding into national biases while elevating their version of gay rights.

I wonder how Indian, Middle Eastern and African gay fiction operates?

[Mike Carss]

17 hours ago, ChromedOutCortex said:

I asked this question once before, and was told to describe some basic attributes but let the reader fill in the blanks - and for the most part, that's what I've been trying to do.

When it comes to character description, the trope is describing eye and hair colour, but those do nothing to show who the person is. The person's age goes a long way to create an image in the reader's mind, and for side characters, that might be all that's needed. Their size and frame (big, small, fat, skinny, brawny, etc.) can be helpful at times. I'll only mention hair if it's very long or if they're bald. Distinguishing features such as a scar can go a long way in telling a backstory without going into detail. Their gait -- if that helps describe their character, such as a menacing gait -- or if they have a limp. I feel those kind of details can cement a better mental image within the reader, as well as provide hints at their personality/temperament.

 

11 hours ago, Krista said:

I much rather would like the Author show me what their characters look like through subtle and distinct glimpses over time.

Absolutely this!

(Also, sorry for being part of the topic derail. 
😁)

 

7 hours ago, Talo Segura said:

There certainly used to be circa late nineties and carrying on past the millennium. The beginning of gay story sites which developed the graphic sex porn material into sex with a plot, and the model was story peppered with sex, if not quite sex in every chapter, nearly. Today, that model is still there.

And I doubt that model will ever disappear because I think there's always going to be a want/need for that kind of storytelling. I enjoyed those stories in my younger years, but they don't interest me anymore. Now, I'm looking for something more nuanced. Something to break that mould that's pretty common in gay stories.

 

1 hour ago, empath said:

I was shocked by how difficult it is to find well-written, normalized, queer writing outside the romance or erotica genres.  I guess my new fantasy is living in a world where being LGBTQIA+ isn’t a thing we disclose as a warning in a preface, because it won’t shock or offend potential readers.

The best we can do is keep writing stories with LGBTQIA+ characters in positive roles. Normalize it so that with each generation, the idea of a LGBTQIA+ character isn't offensive or strange.

[Jason Rimbaud]

I had commented earlier in my usual tongue-n-cheek manner that didn't really do anything but let me make one joke that no one got but made my husband laugh so it was worth it. Then I read @Krista comment and it got my tiny brain thinking and I haven't been able to shake it. 

In our current climate I think people react in a very knee-jerk manner. I know many of my "innocent questions" I've posed gained some responses that left me confused as my intent or motivation behind the question wasn't close to how someone interpreted it. So I always look to a motivation of whomever poses/comments on questions.

The question did seemed to be phrased in a way that could be perceived in multiple ways. The two that stuck out to me, negatively generalizing stories in only two presented forms, and the other way as curiosity that @Talo Segura observed as he read through the site.

In my limited interaction with @Talo Segura, I found him to hold high standards for his own writings and for the type of stories he consumes and/or enjoys. He might be outspoken at times but I have never found anything he said to be purposefully negative. And frankly, I have agreed with his words though not the way he communicates more than I disagreed. I happen to enjoy his rather blunt way of communicating even if I would not be as overt. In regards to that, at a cursory glance, I too could speculate that there seems to be only two types of stories on this site, Salty and Un-Salty. 

This goes back to people's motivations. I think most people who write on this site don't have any illusions of a New York Times Best Seller placement in their future. I think they write for fun, for themselves, and for validation from readers. And I think they are heavily influenced by what has worked for other "well known" writers on online sites. 

I believe @W_L has stated publicly he has interest in writing certain stories but the lack of reader interest is enough for him to focus his precious energy on something the majority of readers on this site prefer. And I would say that is coming from someone who wants to write what people are going to enjoy rather than take months writing a story no one is going to read. 

As for the stories on this site being, a glance, salty or un-salty, doesn't mean anything other than writers want people to read their stories and if it's not broke, why break it. 

As an example, a few months back, someone wrote a very long and in depth piece set as the Nazi's invaded France. It did not fit into any mold on this site, salty or un-salted and it was not well received at all. I enjoyed what the author was attempting to do but understood why the casual reader of GA did not get it. I don't think there is an author on this site that would step so far out of the box, it wouldn't work and that's not the reason they are writing.

One more example, there is a much beloved author on this site, who uses every "gay trope" in the book and probably created more than a few over the very long online writing presence. I happen to believe this author is the single worse amateur writer I have ever read, only JK Rowling is worse, and she is a "professional". But many on this site copies this authors style because of the popularity and readership.  I think one should know your audience, or create a new one by writing amazing stories. 

I love Westerns, but judging from the lack of Westerns on this site, I am in the minority. That doesn't stop me from writing a time traveling western centered around Bodie California's infamous boom town of the late 1800's. When that's finished, it will join all my other completed stories that probably no one will ever read. I know my audience, it's me. I derive the most pleasure in writing a story, polishing it to be as good as I can get it, usually not very good, and then moving on to a new idea. 

Thanks for the interesting topic @Talo Segura, and I have enjoyed reading other peoples responses. 

 

PS: I know there are many different types of stories on this site that doesn't fit into the salty or unsalty model. 

 

Edited December 1, 2024 by Jason Rimbaud
Added A PS

[Krista]

On 12/1/2024 at 11:34 AM, mcarss said:

The best we can do is keep writing stories with LGBTQIA+ characters in positive roles. Normalize it so that with each generation, the idea of a LGBTQIA+ character isn't offensive or strange.

I disagree with this. The best way to normalize anyone is to make them as human as possible. Only showcasing people in positive light or in positive roles, detracts from their humanity. That is why intention is important. If you're going to write LGBTQIA people in a less than positive light, then there needs to be a very 'human' reason for them to be that way. With flaws, intentions, motives, ideas, and etc that spans across and encompasses all of human nature. 

What offends or puts off most people is when the writing is making people holier than thou solely based on what they are. Or, preaching to readers that they have to accept a character as they are without showing their merits. Especially if the only box checked on that list is 'Gay.' 

LGBTQIA characters and people can be narcissists, sociopaths, alcoholics, racists, murderers, villains, dictators. Just don't write them as such 'because' they are LGBTQIA. Write them as such because they are those things, and just happen to be gay or whatever as well. Show people as bad, good, and/or morally gray from all walks of life, because that is a very true way to depict human nature. Redeem characters that need redeemed, keep people as they are if they can't be. 

Writing of that nature needs a lot of forethought though. But it needs a lot of forethought for any character that you want to depict a certain way, good, bad, or otherwise. 

The quickest way to make your characters one-dimensional is the thought they can only be depicted one certain way. 

[Mike Carss]

9 minutes ago, Krista said:

The best way to normalize anyone is to make them as human as possible. Only showcasing people in positive light or in positive roles, detracts from their humanity. That is why intention is important.

You're right, of course. While I didn't mention it previously, the reason I said "positive roles" was in response to the way LGBTQIA characters were often portrayed in the past. Think queer-coded villains in older Disney films. Admittedly that kind of thing doesn't exist anymore -- at least I don't think it does.

FWIW, the two gay protagonists from my novels Deeds of Their Past and Strength of Fate are the "bad guys", but since the story is told from their point of view, they're very human despite their flaws. And they just happen to be gay. They're not defined by their sexuality.

[Krista]

2 hours ago, mcarss said:

You're right, of course. While I didn't mention it previously, the reason I said "positive roles" was in response to the way LGBTQIA characters were often portrayed in the past. Think queer-coded villains in older Disney films. Admittedly that kind of thing doesn't exist anymore -- at least I don't think it does.

FWIW, the two gay protagonists from my novels Deeds of Their Past and Strength of Fate are the "bad guys", but since the story is told from their point of view, they're very human despite their flaws. And they just happen to be gay. They're not defined by their sexuality.

It most definitely still happens across numerous different areas, and it causes me to DNF something all the time.  It sucks. You have a promising story then ole antagonist rolls up and the writing is as thin as the paper it was printed on. And we're supposed to hate them because they're the "opposite" of the protagonist and nothing else. There's no middle area or flexibility.

I just find it preachy and/or lazy mostly. 

Edited December 15, 2024 by Krista