Poor Man's Son

[Matthew k]

What happens to a guy who is almost 14, but has the body of a 16/17 year old? Is he supposed to just climb under a rock? You guys seem to have this idea that teenagers are these wonderful beings that do what they're supposed to do, never have sex with anyone, and do what? Sit around and read 18th Century English novels? Really? You guys sound like a bunch of Midwestern parents at a PTA meeting. Kids do stupid ass things and get in trouble. They push boundaries and go beyond them when they shouldn't. And for a guy who matures early, that's going to happen earlier.

 

Yes I know that in the perfect world we set up for children, things don't happen that way. They all go through puberty between 13-15 years old, they jack off privately until they're 16 or 17 then maybe try it with a friend. Then they have some groping with said friend, maybe even a blow job, but then, that's better saved for college. Then in college, probably toward the end of Sophomore year/beginning of Junior year, they f**k someone, or let someone f**k them. There's this standard procedure that they're supposed to follow. Why is Will deviating from this? What the f**k am I doing having him actually violate this sacrosanct process? How horrible this is. Well folks, this isn't a perfect world, and there are a whole lot of guys who have entirely different development cycles and sexual experimentation experiences. It seems that it's wrong to write about that possibility. But what I love most is the irony (I'm not going to say hypocrisy, but I'm thinking it) of those who bitch about it, but then evaluate their own experiences and find that they were doing things well outside the normally accepted age cycle themselves. It's kind of like the GA website, where you have explicit stories about butt sex but you can't type the word f**k because it might offend someone.

 

Personally, when I wrote the scene, I was laughing my ass off. I had this vision of a very well-developed teen exercising some typical teenage rebellion and doing something that he really shouldn't have been doing. Then, at the climax of the, uh, crime, he looks off into the audience and sees his grandfather. How busted are you when that happens? How do you talk your way out of it? And even if you can get Stef to not be pissed off, how do you get your parents not to come down on you like a ton of bricks.

 

I don't think many people have had problems with Will's sexual activities with John, Gathan, Berto and wouldn't if he was hooking up with a 25 year guy he thought was cool or who ever and what ever age, but that is all private conduct. For a 13/14 year old to be out in public, fully naked, completeing a sex act is a whole different category. I do think we owe it to kids, and a 13/14 year old is a kid, to help preserve some level of childhood, even at 13/14 and to set boundries. I know I wouldn't be able to keep my 13/14 year old from having sex with his best friend, or even our 35 year old neighbor, if that is what he wants, but by the same token i think those things are far different from what happened in the club in Rome. What happens to Will in high school when these photos or video appear on various sites?

 

I am not being overly critical of you Mark, just a little, because I think it is one step, maybe two, too far. I wouldn't want my now 18 year old doing that at a club in West Hollywood (and he could not because it would be illegal) because even though at 18 he is now legally an "adult", he would not have thought out the long term ramifications of this kind of thing. I have a friend, Kenny Jordan, who damn near ruined his life over something much less than this.

 

Sorry I couldn't multi-quote, for some reason my anti-pop up program is blocking it.

[methodwriter85]

Not so much in terms of the sex, but in terms of partying. I think Andy from Cross-Currents is a good example- he was one of those guys who matured physically at fourteen, and his early/mid-teens allowed him a lot of experimentation with drugs and sex. He had a crazy freshmen year, but by sophomore year of college he was pretty much over that phase in his life and was ready to settle down into a serious relationship at 20. I think Will's going to be similiar.

Edited July 24, 2011 by methodwriter85

[B1ue]

Not so much in terms of the sex, but in terms of partying. I think Andy from Cross-Currents is a good example- he was one of those guys who matured physically at fourteen, and his early/mid-teens allowed him a lot of experimentation with drugs and sex. He had a crazy freshmen year, but by sophomore year of college he was pretty much over that phase in his life and was ready to settle down into a serious relationship at 20. I think Will's going to be similiar.

 

I'm kind of on Matthew's side on this. It can happen as you say (in fact, that's a fair way of describing my own early twenties), but more often, in my experience, people become partiers and exhibitionists by habit and don't stop at all. It's like, for a lot of people, college or your first years out of the house are in a twilight zone where you're expected to be a moron, and are allowed to run riot for a couple of years, but are also to get back to your real life/personality once that time has passed. But for people that start early and often, that is their real life. They are calmer about it, because experience makes them better able to deal with the consequences, but they don't stop seeking some thrill.

[Mari]

I normally try not to get involved in petty disagreements but SERIOUSLY????

 

In roughly the mid 90's when I was 13/14 ish everyone had sexual experience. All of my friends did, people had sex at parties , clubs ,school etc. And I'm not just talking about the party kids, the honor roll and sports kids were there too. The only people who didn't were the total losers who couldn't get a date to save their lives. I would like to stress that I am not name calling or pointing fingers. Saving yourself for marriage? Great, do it elsewhere please. When you die alone, sad and virginal don't blame me. The only 'extreme' thing I saw at all in this last chapter was that he came on stage. I've never done that or seen anyone else do it. Still, that seems like the kind of club you can get away with it in. I was hysterical when he got 'caught' How many times can you look back and remember getting caught doing something naughty? I seriously can't wait to see what the fallout will be from his parents and JP. There will be some shocked people wondering what happened to shy and responsible Will.

 

If you have a young teen you are deluding yourself in thinking that they are sweet angels. Buy them condoms.

 

I don't know if I should post this, it seems mean but whatever. Oh, and just to be clear, this is FICTION. Don't be so serious all the time

Edited July 24, 2011 by Mari

[Hermetically Sealed]

I think as people have said, it's not that he's sexually active. It's that he put on a sex show for an entire club of adults . . . at 13 (almost 14). Not a strip tease, but a full on sex show. Even if he looks more mature, as the readers we know how old he really is, and that is what the issue for some is. Let's face it, anytime teens and sex are mixed, it's going to be touchy, especially when they are barely teens.

 

Myself, I am kind of in between. Yeah, I felt it to be icky, but rationally I also understand that by nature, at 13 or so humans are built to be sexually active. Nature doesn't care about social mores, and it's not always easy to avoid those ingrained instincts.

 

Not slamming on Mark, just an observation. I am glad that repercussions are coming (pardon the pun), because that certainly can be and usually are an eye opener. I'm sure once Will is finally confronted by it, he'll probably feel a bit chastened.

[Mark Arbour]

I don't think many people have had problems with Will's sexual activities with John, Gathan, Berto and wouldn't if he was hooking up with a 25 year guy he thought was cool or who ever and what ever age, but that is all private conduct. For a 13/14 year old to be out in public, fully naked, completeing a sex act is a whole different category. I do think we owe it to kids, and a 13/14 year old is a kid, to help preserve some level of childhood, even at 13/14 and to set boundries. I know I wouldn't be able to keep my 13/14 year old from having sex with his best friend, or even our 35 year old neighbor, if that is what he wants, but by the same token i think those things are far different from what happened in the club in Rome. What happens to Will in high school when these photos or video appear on various sites?

 

I am not being overly critical of you Mark, just a little, because I think it is one step, maybe two, too far. I wouldn't want my now 18 year old doing that at a club in West Hollywood (and he could not because it would be illegal) because even though at 18 he is now legally an "adult", he would not have thought out the long term ramifications of this kind of thing. I have a friend, Kenny Jordan, who damn near ruined his life over something much less than this.

 

Sorry I couldn't multi-quote, for some reason my anti-pop up program is blocking it.

 

 

Not to discount your entire post, but I highlighted two key points. The first is the concept of videos, and as I mentioned, that's a big problem for anyone who has a public persona. It is quite possible that this will come back to haunt Will in the future.

 

The second highlighted section, on how you wouldn't want your 18 year old doing that....totally agree. My point was that what we want usually has little bearing on what a teenager does. If I made Will a character who was that boring, I wouldn't want to read my stories.

 

 

Not so much in terms of the sex, but in terms of partying. I think Andy from Cross-Currents is a good example- he was one of those guys who matured physically at fourteen, and his early/mid-teens allowed him a lot of experimentation with drugs and sex. He had a crazy freshmen year, but by sophomore year of college he was pretty much over that phase in his life and was ready to settle down into a serious relationship at 20. I think Will's going to be similiar.

 

I think so too.

 

I'm kind of on Matthew's side on this. It can happen as you say (in fact, that's a fair way of describing my own early twenties), but more often, in my experience, people become partiers and exhibitionists by habit and don't stop at all. It's like, for a lot of people, college or your first years out of the house are in a twilight zone where you're expected to be a moron, and are allowed to run riot for a couple of years, but are also to get back to your real life/personality once that time has passed. But for people that start early and often, that is their real life. They are calmer about it, because experience makes them better able to deal with the consequences, but they don't stop seeking some thrill.

 

Everyone is different. Hard core partiers seem to be born that way. I don't see Will as that kind of guy. He's not that extroverted, and he doesn't seem abnormally hooked on exhibitionism. I see him as a guy who went wild and did something crazy. I don't see that as a pattern. Plus, let's remember that the poor kid had a pretty traumatic experience in Paris. I don't think it's unreasonable for him to cut loose a little bit and do something completely out of character as he grapples with that.

 

I normally try not to get involved in petty disagreements but SERIOUSLY????

 

In roughly the mid 90's when I was 13/14 ish everyone had sexual experience. All of my friends did, people had sex at parties , clubs ,school etc. And I'm not just talking about the party kids, the honor roll and sports kids were there too. The only people who didn't were the total losers who couldn't get a date to save their lives. I would like to stress that I am not name calling or pointing fingers. Saving yourself for marriage? Great, do it elsewhere please. When you die alone, sad and virginal don't blame me. The only 'extreme' thing I saw at all in this last chapter was that he came on stage. I've never done that or seen anyone else do it. Still, that seems like the kind of club you can get away with it in. I was hysterical when he got 'caught' How many times can you look back and remember getting caught doing something naughty? I seriously can't wait to see what the fallout will be from his parents and JP. There will be some shocked people wondering what happened to shy and responsible Will.

 

If you have a young teen you are deluding yourself in thinking that they are sweet angels. Buy them condoms.

 

I don't know if I should post this, it seems mean but whatever. Oh, and just to be clear, this is FICTION. Don't be so serious all the time

 

 

I'm glad you posted. I don't think shy and responsible Will is gone, that Will is just being subverted by hormones and natural rebellion.

 

I think as people have said, it's not that he's sexually active. It's that he put on a sex show for an entire club of adults . . . at 13 (almost 14). Not a strip tease, but a full on sex show. Even if he looks more mature, as the readers we know how old he really is, and that is what the issue for some is. Let's face it, anytime teens and sex are mixed, it's going to be touchy, especially when they are barely teens.

 

Myself, I am kind of in between. Yeah, I felt it to be icky, but rationally I also understand that by nature, at 13 or so humans are built to be sexually active. Nature doesn't care about social mores, and it's not always easy to avoid those ingrained instincts.

 

Not slamming on Mark, just an observation. I am glad that repercussions are coming (pardon the pun), because that certainly can be and usually are an eye opener. I'm sure once Will is finally confronted by it, he'll probably feel a bit chastened.

 

That's the next issue: what kind of repercussions will he require? There are some who would advocate a lockdown, military style. You know the types. "If that were my kid, he sure as hell wouldn't do that!" My experience is that kids from those homes usually do more, and their parents know about less of it. So how do you handle a guy like Will, who's a smart kid who normally toes the line?

[Mark Arbour]

I cannot believe I got a negative point for my post.

 

I'm surprised you don't get more.

 

Seriously, don't worry about that shit. Your friends had your back, and you're positive again.

[B1ue]

In roughly the mid 90's when I was 13/14 ish everyone had sexual experience. All of my friends did, people had sex at parties , clubs ,school etc. And I'm not just talking about the party kids, the honor roll and sports kids were there too. The only people who didn't were the total losers who couldn't get a date to save their lives.

And yet, the average age where someone lost their penetrative sex virginity remained 18 at the end of the 90's, when I was 13. I was acquainted with several people in college that retained that virginity even into their senior year of college. How or why they did this, I have no idea, but I can't recall anyone thinking the less of them for it. And no, they certainly weren't losers. Actually, one girl was the best looking girl on my hall, which caused every single male and a couple of the females to blue screen when she revealed her choice.

 

Also, I'm confused. When aren't honor roll and jock students expected to be sexually early active? Anyone who stands out gets noticed, you know?

 

I think as people have said, it's not that he's sexually active.

Not totally true. Some have an issue with thirteen-year-olds screwing around. I don't in this instance, because he's a mature and mentally ready to start going at it, but not all thirteen-year-olds have that level of maturity. Hell, not all thirty-year-olds have that, but that's another argument.

 

As I've mentioned, my family is and was pretty permissive. My sisters think I'm a slut, being gay, so they find me more relatable now than when they thought I disapproved of their life choices. When I got into fights, the question wasn't "Why did you hit him," but, "Did you win?" My niece is a total dork, so I doubt she's going to be hooking up any time soon, despite looking a fair bit older than her actual age. If she was a bit more people saavy, my sisters and I would be sneaking her condomns and giving her enough advice that hopefully she'd know better than to waste her affections on a loser from our hometown. Sex is one thing, no need to get attached is all.

 

We'd also be letting the air out of her tires. No reason to make it easy for the little ankle biters.

[Matthew k]

I normally try not to get involved in petty disagreements but SERIOUSLY????

 

In roughly the mid 90's when I was 13/14 ish everyone had sexual experience. All of my friends did, people had sex at parties , clubs ,school etc. And I'm not just talking about the party kids, the honor roll and sports kids were there too. The only people who didn't were the total losers who couldn't get a date to save their lives. I would like to stress that I am not name calling or pointing fingers. Saving yourself for marriage? Great, do it elsewhere please. When you die alone, sad and virginal don't blame me. The only 'extreme' thing I saw at all in this last chapter was that he came on stage. I've never done that or seen anyone else do it. Still, that seems like the kind of club you can get away with it in. I was hysterical when he got 'caught' How many times can you look back and remember getting caught doing something naughty? I seriously can't wait to see what the fallout will be from his parents and JP. There will be some shocked people wondering what happened to shy and responsible Will.

 

If you have a young teen you are deluding yourself in thinking that they are sweet angels. Buy them condoms.

I don't know if I should post this, it seems mean but whatever. Oh, and just to be clear, this is FICTION. Don't be so serious all the time

 

Where did this post come from? Who ever said anything about "saving one's self for marriage"?

 

Just because all of your friends were having sex at 13/14 doesn't mean everyone was, you can not put your anecdotal experiences out there as the norm.

 

If that happened in a club in the U.S. there would be arrests, long jail terms and sexual offender registration for a lot of adults.

 

To name call at people who chose not to have sex is just wrong and juvenile. Not that that was even what we were talking about, no one bemoaned Will's loss of virginity, that was several chapters ago and there wasn't a peep about it.

 

Lastly, what do you pretend to know about my teen and what his morals are, what decisions he has and has not made and how we have reacted to all that? Again, you project your narrow anecdotal experience to everyone and that is a mistake.

[Canuk]

Where did this post come from? Who ever said anything about "saving one's self for marriage"?

 

Just because all of your friends were having sex at 13/14 doesn't mean everyone was, you can not put your anecdotal experiences out there as the norm.

 

If that happened in a club in the U.S. there would be arrests, long jail terms and sexual offender registration for a lot of adults.

 

To name call at people who chose not to have sex is just wrong and juvenile. Not that that was even what we were talking about, no one bemoaned Will's loss of virginity, that was several chapters ago and there wasn't a peep about it.

 

Lastly, what do you pretend to know about my teen and what his morals are, what decisions he has and has not made and how we have reacted to all that? Again, you project your narrow anecdotal experience to everyone and that is a mistake.

 

I agree - this is not about imposing some outdated moral standard, but something that I feel went one step too far. Personally I was laughing and enjoying the story up until where the older man took Will's g-string (or whatever) off and the scene became an underage sex act with him coming on stage. At that point it moved from a kid pushing boundaries to just plain icky. If the story had been, in quick succession: naked on stage/see Grandfather/emabarrassment/leave, it would have worked for me, but from the moment he was naked and using the pole you lost me; my only thought was he's 14.

 

Mark , you are still a great writer and I thoroughly enjoy your writings. And perhaps it's good for you press boundaries every now and again - after all if you don't press them how do we know where they are. For me - this was my boundary and I was as surprised to actually feel this boundary as anything else. I am interested in others' points-of-view. I am a little annoyed at the suggestion that if you didn't appreciate this scene therefore you are against pre-marital sex

 

I'm surprised you don't get more.

 

Seriously, don't worry about that shit. Your friends had your back, and you're positive again.

 

I agree

[Mark Arbour]

I agree - this is not about imposing some outdated moral standard, but something that I feel went one step too far. Personally I was laughing and enjoying the story up until where the older man took Will's g-string (or whatever) off and the scene became an underage sex act with him coming on stage. At that point it moved from a kid pushing boundaries to just plain icky. If the story had been, in quick succession: naked on stage/see Grandfather/emabarrassment/leave, it would have worked for me, but from the moment he was naked and using the pole you lost me; my only thought was he's 14.

 

Mark , you are still a great writer and I thoroughly enjoy your writings. And perhaps it's good for you press boundaries every now and again - after all if you don't press them how do we know where they are. For me - this was my boundary and I was as surprised to actually feel this boundary as anything else. I am interested in others' points-of-view. I am a little annoyed at the suggestion that if you didn't appreciate this scene therefore you are against pre-marital sex

 

 

 

I agree

 

Just to clarify, the other guys weren't on stage, only Will was, so they were just reaching up.

 

I'm bracing myself to see how everyone reacts to Brad's reaction. If Brad took out a belt and beat the crap out of him, some would applaud, and say it would do him good, while others would think it was overkill. As you said, it's interesting to explore boundaries. That put a smile on my face.

[methodwriter85]

I'm kind of on Matthew's side on this. It can happen as you say (in fact, that's a fair way of describing my own early twenties), but more often, in my experience, people become partiers and exhibitionists by habit and don't stop at all. It's like, for a lot of people, college or your first years out of the house are in a twilight zone where you're expected to be a moron, and are allowed to run riot for a couple of years, but are also to get back to your real life/personality once that time has passed. But for people that start early and often, that is their real life. They are calmer about it, because experience makes them better able to deal with the consequences, but they don't stop seeking some thrill.

 

Think about Will, though. It doesn't fit his personality. He's not an addictive, thrill-seeking person. He's having fun, but I can't see it becoming something that he can't move on from.

 

If anything, the best candidate for living in the kind of excess you're talking about is JJ. It's a combination of JJ living under the repression of his public image, his insatiable need for attention, and his inability to have close friendships with people that would keep him grounded. I could see him being someone who, when he's 21 and given some freedom to explore, really going off the rails.

[Mark Arbour]

Think about Will, though. It doesn't fit his personality. He's not an addictive, thrill-seeking person. He's having fun, but I can't see it becoming something that he can't move on from.

 

If anything, the best candidate for living in the kind of excess you're talking about is JJ. It's a combination of JJ living under the repression of his public image, his insatiable need for attention, and his inability to have close friendships with people that would keep him grounded. I could see him being someone who, when he's 21 and given some freedom to explore, really going off the rails.

 

I disagree. There's an even better candidate to lead a totally dissolute life besides JJ or Will.

[B1ue]

Think about Will, though. It doesn't fit his personality. He's not an addictive, thrill-seeking person. He's having fun, but I can't see it becoming something that he can't move on from.

 

Neither were quite a few of my friends.

 

Look, Mark already said he's not taking the story this direction, so I'm not really worried about it. And, it's fiction anyways, so I was never actually worried. But still, let me lay out my logic so you can see where I'm coming from. Will is an introvert, has very few friends that he actually cares about, and most of them are straight. Those that aren't straight are related. It's (barely) possible he genuinely doesn't quite grasp how attractive he is; he grew up comparing himself to John, and I know EXACTLY how image scrambling it can be to have a close cousin who is very attractive around. I also get the impression that John is a fair bit smarter than Will, and doesn't take himself as seriously, and has better people skills, Will excepted. None of this helps with self-image issues, though the bigger dick does. I don't think, and don't read, that he actually resents John, but if he wasn't so into him since forever, he'd probably spend his entire life resisting the urge to choke a bitch. Which actually makes me wonder how JJ feels about the both of them. I'm picturing Will and JJ joking about potential spouses passing the "John" test, where they get to meet their cousin, and if they make it the whole night without having or attempting to have sex with him, they are approved.

 

But now, now John and his good opinion have been packed back off to the Bay Area, JJ, his other lodestone, has been growing ever distant, and Will has been surrounded by people that cannot get enough of him or his looks. Gathan, that kidnapper guy, Berto have all risked and given much for just a few moments of Will. And it isn't like they're alone. That kind of attention, and the circumstances that surround the attention, can be heady. Enough to make him want more, even if he had never craved such attention in the first place. Behaviors like that are called addictions for a reason. One taste can be all that you need, or it can be the one thing that makes your life make perfect sense for the first time. AND WILL CAME. You're going to try and tell me that someone that got off that completely isn't going to try and seek it again, somewhere else? Somewhere safely, I assume, and Mark's promised, but somewhere, nonetheless.

 

On the topic of habits of mind, I'm unconvinced JJ would explode once free of the skating queens. He's going to be too repressed, and willingly so, for too long to just break out that fast. Not everyone needs to go through a slut phase, and even some that do don't exactly brag about it, and JJ just might be one such. It's be unusal for this family, I admit, but black sheeps come in all shapes. The only way I can see JJ ending up as a crazy party kid is if he and Zach team up to form the Anti-Gathan League, and his bad habits rub off on him.

 

And... now that I've had that thought, it's actually a little daunting. JJ needing so pristine an image, and blundering into a camraderie with the kind of person that would sell him out in a heartbeat. Will would go absolutely apeshit, for excellent reaosn, but Zach would have by now the ability to charm JJ into believing he's changed. Hmm...

 

Mark, no. Or, rather, yes, but only if the sex is hot. JJ could use a loosening up, even if he does wind up straight.

[PrivateTim]

I normally try not to get involved in petty disagreements but SERIOUSLY????

 

In roughly the mid 90's when I was 13/14 ish everyone had sexual experience. All of my friends did, people had sex at parties , clubs ,school etc. And I'm not just talking about the party kids, the honor roll and sports kids were there too. The only people who didn't were the total losers who couldn't get a date to save their lives. I would like to stress that I am not name calling or pointing fingers. Saving yourself for marriage? Great, do it elsewhere please. When you die alone, sad and virginal don't blame me. The only 'extreme' thing I saw at all in this last chapter was that he came on stage. I've never done that or seen anyone else do it. Still, that seems like the kind of club you can get away with it in. I was hysterical when he got 'caught' How many times can you look back and remember getting caught doing something naughty? I seriously can't wait to see what the fallout will be from his parents and JP. There will be some shocked people wondering what happened to shy and responsible Will.

 

If you have a young teen you are deluding yourself in thinking that they are sweet angels. Buy them condoms.

 

I don't know if I should post this, it seems mean but whatever. Oh, and just to be clear, this is FICTION. Don't be so serious all the time

 

No you shouldn't have posted it.

[Daddydavek]

I find it all very interesting that Mark's readers are so divided on this point. The chapter has many elements including Steff's being clearly unhappy at Will's happy ending display. If Steff who is Mark's most liberal character is unhappy, then I am glad that Robbie and Brad were not there and that their reaction will be after the fact and hopefully after some time when cooler emotions can prevail. I said in my comments on the chapter review that I though Will's dancing on display with a pole to a "happy" ending was shocking. I don't think it was unbelievable. Sexually active kids today are more comfortable with their bodies and with Will's "development" he has nothing to be embarrassed about. Brad was a risk taker sort as a teenager in his time too and so I don't think he will go off the deep-end.

 

As a midwestern grandpa, I subscribe to Mark's fantasy description in his forum post 7-21-11 at 3:50 p.m., I also realize that in real life things don't usually work out that way. Most young males at a party act pretty much in "the moment" so I can see where the scene Mark gave could happen under the parameters described. Of course now with facebook and other social media being so big, such an act in 2011 would be all over the internet within hours. Smartphones are such a pain!

[One Cheap Suit]

Oh come on. Being 14 is all about finding limits to what you can and can't get away with. The brain and the hormones are firing and most 14 year olds I've known are complete tools at that age to each other and are definitely pushing boundaries with the authority figures.

 

As a 14 year old I

 

- got high/got drunk

- lied to my parents

- stole cigarettes and money from them (never a lot though)

- cheated in school

- skipped school

- had sex with my friends

 

...got caught doing some of this, and got away with more

 

People worried about Mari's "anecdotal" evidence: What were all you doing at 14? Church camp? Ice cream socials? Daring stunts like prank phone calls and rubber bands around the kitchen sink sprayer?

 

Or were you trying to get in somebody's pants and thinking dirty things and doing stupid things without thinking first? What makes Mari's post any different other than her admitting some things that happened in her part of the planet?

 

Besides, this is Mark's universe, not the real one where getting all moral about a character's behavior would make sense. It's all in his head, where his morality applies, not mine OR YOURS. If he wants to put a 14 year old on a stripper pole, well, that's the story, isn't it?

 

Frankly I found the whole thing quite entertaining, and I could pretty much picture what Will's face looked like as he looked across the audience to Grandpa Stef's disapproving glare

 

Also - my brother in law is fond of saying (jokingly) that his job as a dad is to "keep his daughter off the pole" for as long as he can... Brad loses...

[rjo]

Mark you have never been afraid to tackle those difficult subjects. Some people love the safety of solid ground and some like living on the edge of the cliff. I think you really want Will four or five years older than he is. Will has up to this point been very in control of his life, Maybe this it your way to show he is human like the rest of us. Your last chapter started a firestorm of debate. I believe Will let himself go, maybe to much, but who hasn't done that from time to time. It may not be one of his prouder moments but getting into a fight with a car wasn't Brad's either. As for reaction to this event, I can't believe Brad reacting too harshly. Remember, Brad likes to show off some himself and has done some dumb things in the past. I honestly think Brad would think it was funny. "Just don't do it again." Loving someone is also forgiving them their mistakes. I wonder what JP would think about this. This is so out of character for Will I can't see any grave reactions to it. It seems like Stef should have known the pitfalls of going the the club. Will Brad ever trust Stef with Will again?

Edited July 25, 2011 by rjo

[Mark Arbour]

Oh come on. Being 14 is all about finding limits to what you can and can't get away with. The brain and the hormones are firing and most 14 year olds I've known are complete tools at that age to each other and are definitely pushing boundaries with the authority figures.

 

As a 14 year old I

 

- got high/got drunk

- lied to my parents

- stole cigarettes and money from them (never a lot though)

- cheated in school

- skipped school

- had sex with my friends

 

...got caught doing some of this, and got away with more

 

People worried about Mari's "anecdotal" evidence: What were all you doing at 14? Church camp? Ice cream socials? Daring stunts like prank phone calls and rubber bands around the kitchen sink sprayer?

 

Or were you trying to get in somebody's pants and thinking dirty things and doing stupid things without thinking first? What makes Mari's post any different other than her admitting some things that happened in her part of the planet?

 

Besides, this is Mark's universe, not the real one where getting all moral about a character's behavior would make sense. It's all in his head, where his morality applies, not mine OR YOURS. If he wants to put a 14 year old on a stripper pole, well, that's the story, isn't it?

 

Frankly I found the whole thing quite entertaining, and I could pretty much picture what Will's face looked like as he looked across the audience to Grandpa Stef's disapproving glare

 

Also - my brother in law is fond of saying (jokingly) that his job as a dad is to "keep his daughter off the pole" for as long as he can... Brad loses...

 

LMAO. That was funny.

 

Mark you have never been afraid to tackle those difficult subjects. Some people love the safety of solid ground and some like living on the edge of the cliff. I think you really want Will four or five years older than he is. Will has up to this point been very in control of his life, Maybe this it your way to show he is human like the rest of us. Your last chapter started a firestorm of debate. I believe Will let himself go, maybe to much, but who hasn't done that from time to time. It may not be one of his prouder moments but getting into a fight with a car wasn't Brad's either. As for reaction to this event, I can't believe Brad reacting too harshly. Remember, Brad likes to show off some himself and has done some dumb things in the past. I honestly think Brad would think it was funny. "Just don't do it again." Loving someone is also forgiving them their mistakes. I wonder what JP would think about this. This is so out of character for Will I can't see any grave reactions to it. It seems like Stef should have known the pitfalls of going the the club. Will Brad ever trust Stef with Will again?

 

Brad was grappling, in the early chapters, with giving Will the freedom to make his own decisions and mistakes. If he got that, then his reaction should be more benign. If not, it won't be.

[methodwriter85]

Which actually makes me wonder how JJ feels about the both of them.

I don't want to say "jealous" because that's a little too pat and simple. I do think that JJ feels left behind, because he's still a little boy and his cousin and his brother have zoomed past that stage. He's curious about sex but definitely not ready or able to experience it just yet.

 

I think JJ's diva act is part insecurity because at the end of the day, everyone always wants to pay more attention to the beautiful, hot cousin and brother he has, while he gets left in the dust for the most part. So he's thrust into this world where he's not only getting attention lavished on him, but he's actually better at it than his brother is. Having grown up in the same grade with Will, I think it's safe to say that WIll's outshone JJ on everything- it's been hinted throughout the books that JJ always tried different things but he never had any particular talent in anything, as opposed to Will who inherited Brad's surfing skills and artistic ability. Or Darius, who can easily read people and has an innate ability to make friends in the way that JJ just isn't wired to do. So he's got this one thing, and he needs to puff it up because without figure skating, he's nothing. That can lead to some very interesting turns down the road.

 

On the topic of habits of mind, I'm unconvinced JJ would explode once free of the skating queens. He's going to be too repressed, and willingly so, for too long to just break out that fast. Not everyone needs to go through a slut phase, and even some that do don't exactly brag about it, and JJ just might be one such. It's be unusal for this family, I admit, but black sheeps come in all shapes. The only way I can see JJ ending up as a crazy party kid is if he and Zach team up to form the Anti-Gathan League, and his bad habits rub off on him.

But see, it's that repression that can cause someone to explode. I've met more than a few people who admit to having been tightly wound or repressed in high school, and then going nuts during college because it was the first time they felt free to explore, but wound up overstepping their boundaries because they never really had enough experience to know what their boundaries were.

 

Here's my way of seeing it...you're 20 years old, entering a hedonistic place like the Olympic Village at Torino. You're very inexperienced, and pretty well-sheltered. For the first time in your life, people are paying sexual attention to you, rather than just praising you for your skating prowess. You've got all kinds of people that want to be your friend, and you've never experienced that before. Because you haven't had many friends growing up, you have a hard time being able to tell who really likes you and who just wants to use you. If your new friend suggests trying some new things for fun, are you really going to turn them down? Are you really going to risk losing all the new friends you've made to say "No, this isn't a good idea" like some nerdy little goody-two-shoes? Screw that. You want to be cool. You want to be desirable. For the first time, you've got people around you making you feel that way. For a guy who's never fit in anywhere- not at school, certainly not with his family- I could see it being pretty intoxicating.

 

Peer pressure can get people to do things they never thought they'd do- I remember driving in a car with a guy who had been drinking. When I rasied the issue with my buddies, they said, "You can get out of the car if it bothers you so much.' So I shut up. Not proud of myself for that, but I wanted to fit in.The desire, especially for people who struggle with it, can lead to some pretty dark places.

 

Mark really doesn't even really have to come up with issues for JJ. Just the very nature of him being born to a crack whore who screwed around with her uncle is enough trauma. That's not even going into how JJ pretty much has to disown his family in order to get ahead in figure skating.

[sat8997]

I cannot believe I got a negative point for my post.

 

I'm surprised you don't get more.

 

 

Okay - that made me laugh.

 

Personally, I'm finding this discussion extremely entertaining. And it is just fiction.

[PrivateTim]

Oh come on. Being 14 is all about finding limits to what you can and can't get away with. The brain and the hormones are firing and most 14 year olds I've known are complete tools at that age to each other and are definitely pushing boundaries with the authority figures.

 

As a 14 year old I

 

- got high/got drunk

- lied to my parents

- stole cigarettes and money from them (never a lot though)

- cheated in school

- skipped school

- had sex with my friends

...got caught doing some of this, and got away with more

 

People worried about Mari's "anecdotal" evidence: What were all you doing at 14? Church camp? Ice cream socials? Daring stunts like prank phone calls and rubber bands around the kitchen sink sprayer?

 

Or were you trying to get in somebody's pants and thinking dirty things and doing stupid things without thinking first? What makes Mari's post any different other than her admitting some things that happened in her part of the planet?

You make the same mistake that Mari does is you generalize your experience to all 14 year olds. I dare say the vast majority of 14 year olds, people who have not yet started high school have not been drunk or used illicit drugs. In fact the numbers are pretty low.

 

I never cheated in school, never skipped school, never smoked anything did go to church camp, ice cream socials, beach barbeques, broom hockey and miniature golf to name a few activities and so did most of my peers. We had pool parties, did ding dong ditch and all the normal things that pre-high schoolers did.

 

I didn't go to a gay club until I was 18 and at 34 have yet to do a poll dance, get erect while naked in public and shoot jizz over the first row of an audience. I have been to gay clubs where 13 year olds were allowed to be and they didn't get naked, do poll dances or jizz on anyone either.

 

There is a level of rebellion that every teen has, but my parents managed to convey enough of a sense of right and wrong that I made my own decisions on what to do based on what I thought was best for me. I didn't do them just because they said I couldn't.

[sat8997]

Oh I think Will's parents instilled a sense of right and wrong. It's just their version is somewhat amplified from Joe Schmoe's version. Most of you are overlooking the fact that Will has been raised in a very gay, very out, very rich family. He's on vacation in Rome, hits up a club, and gets lost in the heat of the moment. It's not like he plans on go-go dancing at Babylon on a regular basis.

[Mark Arbour]

Oh I think Will's parents instilled a sense of right and wrong. It's just their version is somewhat amplified from Joe Schmoe's version. Most of you are overlooking the fact that Will has been raised in a very gay, very out, very rich family. He's on vacation in Rome, hits up a club, and gets lost in the heat of the moment. It's not like he plans on go-go dancing at Babylon on a regular basis.

 

How appropriate that the most logical comments of all (mine included) come from you.

[Canuk]

................ That put a smile on my face.

 

my aim in life