Stories suggestions that are free from cliched conventions

[Cia]

"The nature of this site" is acceptance, imo, Sidd. Accepting that not all authors have a message or feel the need to quote philosophical masters and write a masterpiece in order to post a story. Accepting that is true; sometimes authors have to learn how to be better by working their way up to it. We have teenagers who are writing their first stories, twenty somethings who have been trying for years or just dipping their toes in literary waters; some of our writers use life experience that they've garnered over the years to let us see times and attitudes of years gone past. Everyone writes in their own way. Not everyone is 'good' by commonly held opinions, granted, but don't dismiss the site just because YOU don't happen to like the genre/style a lot of the members do. How much have you read on this site? Have you been lurking long or have you just sampled a few stories and judged the lot by those few? Did you pick up a pen or keyboard and instantly write the type of story you are wishing for, if that's what you write, or did it take time, trial and error, and a lot of work before you got to that point?

 

Talking about this subject is good. It is always good to discuss styles, skills, plot fallacies or strengths along with characterizations. People learn this way. But you might want to watch the tone and manner of which you speak of the authors on this site, even if you don't name names.

 

Also, perhaps you are finding it difficult to find the types of sites you are looking for because authors who tend to write the type of fiction you prefer publish. Have you checked your local bookstores' LGBT sections?

[rec]

Some more suggestions of more adult-themed stories:

 

The stories of Rock Lane Cooper, available at Crvboy.org, In particular, Two Men in a Pickup, but all are well written.

 

Jfinn's Human Condition tells a good tale at the college level.

 

Mickey S tells a good, adult-level tale at Second Wind, also available at Crvboy.org.

 

With regard to the Michael Arram series, it is true that the Peachers are unnaturally rich, but the stories are good adventure tales not too heavily laden with explicit sex scenes -- which, in my opinion, are mostly skippable in general. I find that the better writers start to change from explicit to erotic and less frequent sex as they write more.

[comicfan]

Okay, middle aged white male writer. Don't like teenage sex, wasn't good at teenage sex, don't have teenage sex in my stories. Guilty of beautiful people, not always rich. However, my works are a bit all over the place. I've written a lot of one shot stories, most retelling of well known fairy tales however they have new wrinkles if you wish. My characters are gay. You won't find a beautiful maiden waiting for her Prince Charming in my version of Sleeping Beauty. Hell, the prince doesn't want a damn thing to with the rescue in the first place. Accidents Happen is 31 chapters long, deals with Charlie and his family and relationships. Charlie is bisexual, his older lover is gay, and his ex is a woman. Sex happens off screen per say.

 

I've read stories of sweet romances, teenage angst, the modern family, science fiction, fantasy, and more here on GA. I think some of it was wonderful, some okay, and some well you read their work and you see they improve chapter by chapter and story by story. It is really up to you. I agree with the idea the story should capture you in the first paragraph. If you aren't hooked, don't bother to continue. I do that with books in the store as well. You find what attracts you and go for it. Occasionally you find a dud, but by and far you will discover much to be admired on any site you choose to look at.

 

I wish you the best in your hunt.

[Myr]

So again, getting back to the point of this topic, any more suggestions?

 

My attention was just directed at this post, so I figured I'd weigh in. Your desire seems to be largely similar to the movies out of Hollywood. The ones that make money (blockbusters) are cliched and rehashed. But people spend hundreds of millions watching them, enjoy them and are entertained by them. The 'artsy' films that populate the Academy Awards largely are unheard of and almost always suck, as far as people wanting to pay money to see them.

 

Literature is much the same way. You really have to be an English major to enjoy it, mostly. People largely write cliched stuff online because that is what people respond to, read and like. Do authors sometimes transcend into literary originalness? Sure. But it is rare. Finding someone who has and is also a well loved story is harder.

 

So, my suggestion is you leave the internet writing sites and wander off to your local library and/or bookstore and browse the LBGT section, like Cia suggested.

[TalonRider]

There's "The Scrolls of Icaria" by Jamie at AwesomeDude.com.

 

It's a story that hits a lot of issues that mankind has encountered throughout history, politics, religion, slavery, freedom, war, and peace, just to mention a few. The story is a mix of Science Fiction and Fantasy.

 

The main characters of the story are boys with wings, one of two genetically engineered species on the planet. The planet is inhabited by human, Kalorian, and Avvione (Icarian).

 

None of the main characters are rich. Any sex that occurs is implied. The story does contain some descriptive violence.

[option]

Bella Swan

 

thought Twilight was at most 1D?

[option]

I think it mainly comes down to how the story was 'birthed' in the first place;

 

is it character led, as in the author comes up with gay characters, & then tries to find a story to fit them into, eg everything revolves around their sexuality

is it plot led, where theres an idea for a story, & the characters are secondary elements, eg the characters sexuality isnt the dominant force in the story

 

you also have to decide who your target readership is. if all you want to do is post it to a site like GA or Nifty, then the first approach is perfectly fine. if you want a much wider readership, if you want readers to pass it on to friends, the second approach is going to work better.

 

 

 

someone mentioned genres

but genres are artificial constructs created by ourselves. they are constraints to creativity.

why is it 'gay romance', 'gay thriller'? wheres the 'straight thriller' genre?

 

lets take a thriller with 2 brothers, 1 straight the other gay, both in relationships.

what genre is it?

 

 

 

why do we keep labelling & pigeonholing ourselves & our works?

[VictoryPanda]

I love Comicality for this. At first his stories were very sex driven but have died down A LOT over the times. Now it seems more about drama, fear, and all sorts of craziness. The "Billy Chase", "GFD", "New Kid In School", and all the likes are extremely interesting and you NEVER see whats coming next. One thing that destroys me about a majority of stories is that they're all so predictable. I hate reading a description and the spoiler is right there. I HATE knowing who's going to hook up before I even read the story. I do dislike Com's constant ongoing love affair between a white teen male with a perfect bubble butt and blonde hair or whatever. I use to be obsessed with them when I was younger... but I kind of want some diversity. When I actually try to branch out and go to places like Nifty... oh my god. All I ever see there is "Little White Boy In The Mens Bathroom", "Mexican Adventure", "Little Boy and Five Old Pervs", "Little Rich Bitch"... really? I understand some people like the smut stories and all but it's so hard to find a quality story.

 

I am reading "Charlie" by Hamen Cheese which has an odd view point (from the straight homophobic egotistical teenager) and "Devyns Struggle" on nifty (can't remember the author). "Devyns Struggle" is the oddest story I've ever read. While it has the same premise as most stories (white, wealthy, best friends, neighbors), doesn't have clear descriptives (At first) and lacks substance (at first), it branches out into something else towards it's later stories that I did not see coming at all. It actually impacted me mentally to where I feel so badly for certain groups of people now. It's def worth a read.

[clumber]

Not familiar with Sequoyah Pendor or Cole Parker - I'm sure they're good - but it's funny you should mention Mike Arram's series, since it was out of total frustration with him that I started this post in the first place. If you go back to the first post I specifically mentioned the first story in his Peacher series Towards the Decent Inn. To me he's guilty of all the cliches that I've been railing against: glorifying wealthy white males (not to mention a rather snobbish view of royalty), constant teen sex which is never anything less than mind blowing, impossibly beautiful characters (personified in the person of Matt White), and a host other cliches. And of course, a lot of elements are not cliches: not all his characters are wealthy, beautiful, ect. but it's clear where his loyalties lie. But the thing is, I'm riveted by the series - the stories disgust me on moral and aesthetic grounds but at the same time I can't stop obsessing over them. Right now I'm in the middle of the Henry Atwood trilogy, reading and muttering under my breath "Dammit Arram, I wish I could quit you."

 

Another author that has a similar effect on me is Dom Luka. He's definitely one of the best writers on GA, but still guilty of a lot of the cliches I've mentioned, especially the teen sex thing. I'm going to catch flak from Domaholics out there, but haven't you noticed that his characters over the various stories go through an almost identical progression of sex scenes: first there's the intitiation into sex through mutual masterbation, then there's the first oral experience, then tentative steps towards anal sex, and finally the character's first experience of full blown anal sex, which after some initial pain, is the ultimate religious experience in both the characters' life and the story - in the afterglow the characters are lying there making google eyes at each other, murmuring "now I am complete." Well, dear me.

 

This describes not only Dom Luka's stories, but maybe half of the gay teen stories online. Hence my frustration with cliches. But I will say this for Dom Luka, he has the skill to transcend the cliches. His best story IMHO is In the Fishbowl. It's definitely his most mature work, and note he is able to not include one explicit sex scene through the whole story, though there are plenty of opportunities for him to do so.

 

 

I know exactly what you mean about the formulaic nature of a lot of Dom Luka's stories. From the bit I read of In The Fish Bowl though it did seem to avoid it. I have a vague memory that The Other Side Of Me managed to avoid it as well but I never got much beyond the first 3-4 chapters so I may be wrong. Even so, these stories are still fairly riddled with a lot of the cliches of Gay Teen Romance.

 

I think a big part of it might be that GA is, in many ways, a fairly insular community. It certainly is compared to most other writing communities I have encountered. Since this means many of GA's new writers will be heavily expsed to writing fiction primarily through this site and so imitate the successful stories here (which is to be expected). The issue this creates is that the insular nature of the community means there is a far smaller reference pool for 'successful' writing and so there is very little opportunity to shake things up a bit.

 

(I have a few ideas about things which don't help in this matter but that is a whole other conversation lol)

 

 

"The nature of this site" is acceptance, imo, Sidd. Accepting that not all authors have a message or feel the need to quote philosophical masters and write a masterpiece in order to post a story. Accepting that is true; sometimes authors have to learn how to be better by working their way up to it. We have teenagers who are writing their first stories, twenty somethings who have been trying for years or just dipping their toes in literary waters; some of our writers use life experience that they've garnered over the years to let us see times and attitudes of years gone past. Everyone writes in their own way. Not everyone is 'good' by commonly held opinions, granted, but don't dismiss the site just because YOU don't happen to like the genre/style a lot of the members do. How much have you read on this site? Have you been lurking long or have you just sampled a few stories and judged the lot by those few? Did you pick up a pen or keyboard and instantly write the type of story you are wishing for, if that's what you write, or did it take time, trial and error, and a lot of work before you got to that point?

 

Talking about this subject is good. It is always good to discuss styles, skills, plot fallacies or strengths along with characterizations. People learn this way. But you might want to watch the tone and manner of which you speak of the authors on this site, even if you don't name names.

 

Also, perhaps you are finding it difficult to find the types of sites you are looking for because authors who tend to write the type of fiction you prefer publish. Have you checked your local bookstores' LGBT sections?

 

I admit, there are two things I find peculiar in this post... first, how can a community of writers develope any healthy levels of criticism if nobody is allowed to criticise the writing?

 

The second is that I find it a rather poor reflection of the site if the only advice an administrator can give in response to a question concerning quality writing is "go elsewhere". I understand you might not have meant it that way but it is how it reads.

 

My attention was just directed at this post, so I figured I'd weigh in. Your desire seems to be largely similar to the movies out of Hollywood. The ones that make money (blockbusters) are cliched and rehashed. But people spend hundreds of millions watching them, enjoy them and are entertained by them. The 'artsy' films that populate the Academy Awards largely are unheard of and almost always suck, as far as people wanting to pay money to see them.

 

Literature is much the same way. You really have to be an English major to enjoy it, mostly. People largely write cliched stuff online because that is what people respond to, read and like. Do authors sometimes transcend into literary originalness? Sure. But it is rare. Finding someone who has and is also a well loved story is harder.

 

So, my suggestion is you leave the internet writing sites and wander off to your local library and/or bookstore and browse the LBGT section, like Cia suggested.

 

 

Again, the same advice. "For good writing, go elsewhere"... I wasn't aware the aims of this site were set at such a low level.

 

I do think it should be mentioned that there is a world of difference between what is often referred to as "literature" and "good writing". While it is true that the over-written and positively ultra-violet prose of 'literature' can only be enjoyed by a small group of people this is not at all true of interesting or creative writing. Interesting and creative writing tends to be incredibly popular... that's how they keep managing to sell the stuff.

 

Besides, have you seen the sort of LGBT fiction that gets published? It is either the written equivalent of Oscar Bait or a slightly sub-standard rip-off of Mills and Boon. (Only with fewer women and more winking sphincters)

 

 

As it is, why should all writing be praised just because it exists? Surely there is nothing crueller to do to a learning writer than to tell them everything they write is perfect. It is a very efficient way to kill talent. I'm not saying we should start flaming like it's 4chan or anything but surely the members of this site are mature enough to accept that analysis exists?

 

To suggest that there should be no directed criticism is to suggest that the authors on this site should be denied the ability to improve. Improving in any significant way without criticism and analysis would be like editing without making any changes - it is simply not possible.

 

 

Martin

 

(edited for typos)

[Cia]

In no way did I suggest we don't have very skilled writers here. We also have writers that are just starting out. I don't care about critique to my own work or to individual pieces based on their merit; I welcome it because I prefer honesty about my stories, good or bad. However, when I see someone say, "Actually, I was about to give up on GA altogether and just dismiss it as place where semi-illiterate teens come to get cheap thrills. Just kidding. Or not. Ouch!" I'm not inclined to think that they have read all that much on the site and if they're going to make condescending comments such as that, perhaps they shouldn't. That's not a critique, it's an insult to both the writers and readers on GA, imo.

[Dark]

To suggest that there should be no directed criticism is to suggest that the authors on this site should be denied the ability to improve. Improving in any significant way without criticism and analysis would be like editing without making any changes - it is simply not possible.

No one is saying that, Martin. In fact, Cia has often been the voice for more relevant critiques of work. I think you're misunderstanding what both Cia and Myr posted. To bitch about what you perceive is the quality of writing here and then expect the people you've just offended to recommend stories to you is ludicrous.

 

Sure, we've all whined about different stories or 'genres' or what is popular on this site. It's human nature to whine about life. I whined to the library just recently because their sci-fi section is so abysmally small. Fact is, in this community, the popularity of that genre is not enough to warrant a larger number of titles. Same thing is true of the bookstore in this area. Ever since the big, privately-owned wharehouse place closed, it's been ridiculously hard to find good books -- ha! and I say 'good books' as in books that I want to read. My definition of 'good' is not your definition of 'good' and that's why so many genres exist in the first place.

 

Fact of the matter is that just like a store you physically walk into, if you don't find what you want there (or can't be bothered to look at more than just the display racks at the front) then take your business elsewhere.

 

If you were standing in the center of a Barnes and Noble with a sign that said "THIS PLACE SUCKS," what do you think would happen?

[Myr]

Again, the same advice. "For good writing, go elsewhere"... I wasn't aware the aims of this site were set at such a low level.

 

No, the writing here is meant to be read. Literature is written to show how big your dick is when it comes to using big words most people choke on. It is largely unreadable unless you ate a dictionary as a kid.

[clumber]

No one is saying that, Martin. In fact, Cia has often been the voice for more relevant critiques of work. I think you're misunderstanding what both Cia and Myr posted. To bitch about what you perceive is the quality of writing here and then expect the people you've just offended to recommend stories to you is ludicrous.

I didn't expect anybody to recommend any stories to me. Also, my main complaint with the writing here isn't the quality, it's the lack of variety.

 

No, the writing here is meant to be read. Literature is written to show how big your dick is when it comes to using big words most people choke on. It is largely unreadable unless you ate a dictionary as a kid.

 

 

Myr, there is a world of difference between good writing and incomprehensible literature. The main complaint I have with the writing on this site is how similar all of the stories are. Where is the sci-fi? The interesting fantasy? Where are the thrillers and the whodunits and the cross-over fanfics and the post-apocalyptic vampires lesbian bank-robbers? Where are the stories about more than "Mr Middle-class whinges endlessly about the hardships of being gay"?

 

I have found a small amount of stories that don't quite fit into that formula but the vast majority of the sites literature does and those that don't are still heavily packed with gayngst. I don't want to read about yet another angsty teen boy finding true love with the new kid at school.

 

I also don't buy any arguments of "but this is gay fiction and it must therefore be all about gay people coping with being gay due to their gayness and OMG They're ALL JUST SO DAMN GAY".

 

I have read a lot of stories around the internet, many of them very enjoyable, in which a primarily gay cast of characters go through an interesting plot which doesn't revolve entirely around the characters sexuality. It does exist. I strongly beleive it would exist on this site as well were this site less isolated.

 

Also, no. People on this site do not want concrit and there is no culture of it. When the subject comes up everybody leaps to say that they want loads of concrit but then none is ever given.

 

Martin

[Myr]

Errr... ummm... dkstories has nearly 3 million words of stories posted and the vast majority of those are either fanfiction, science fiction or fantasy. Most of those have a heavy political thriller type thing going on and little to no typical gay angst stuff.

 

Saying there are none is a stretch.

In fact... https://www.gayauthors.org/stories/browse/genre/

There seems to be quite a large number of stories in different genres.

[clumber]

Errr... ummm... dkstories has nearly 3 million words of stories posted and the vast majority of those are either fanfiction, science fiction or fantasy. Most of those have a heavy political thriller type thing going on and little to no typical gay angst stuff.

 

Saying there are none is a stretch.

In fact... http://www.gayauthor...s/browse/genre/

There seems to be quite a large number of stories in different genres.

 

 

I specifically said there were some stories which did not fall into the category but GA is still incredibly homogeneous compared to pretty much any other writing community I have been a part of.

 

Also, you have pointed to a single author. Even if they are incredibly prolific, this is still a single person.

 

 

See, you may have pointed to the story genre page but...well...two problems.The first is that just because a story is classed as "fantasy" does not mean it isn't primarily driven by the woes of being gay. Also, the combined entries for romance and drama beat out, by a few hundred stories, the combined results of every other genre on the site.

 

It is clear that the stories on this site show a distinct lack of variety and, considering the nfluence and importance the site claims to have, this surely shouldn't be the case.

 

 

Oh, and the attempt to re-phrase my argument as saying there are no non-gay-teen stories is incredibly disingenuous on your part. It is simply responding to the argument you want me to present, rather than the actual point I put forward.

 

Martin

[Cia]

Okay, you say you don't want anyone suggesting stories to you but I'm going to in order to refute your point there is little variety on this site. Myr pointed out DK. There are other hosted that don't focus on teenage angst driven drama, look at Gabriel Morgan's work or Mark Arbour's historical series or Topher's sci-fi work Falcon Banner that is heavy on the not so modern high school drama. Promising includes Androgene who writes stories about adult couples primarily; Bugeye who writes poetry and short stories that rarely revolve around high school, or Corvus' story Mike and Winston about a 30 something and a college guy.

 

Dolores Esteban: Very few of her works even focus on the character's sexuality. I especially love her mystery/thriller Absolute Zero.

 

Comicfan: A lot of his work does revolve around the 'romance' but it's anything but your typical high school drama genre. He has several fantasy stories.

 

Empathy writes teen stories but look at Angel Among Them. It's anything but ordinary high school angst.

 

Nephy has characters of all ages in her stories. Some aren't even human. Some stories have lots of sex, some have none. I love Chris and Luke, it's very beautiful.

 

Renee Steven: Joined by Blood. The men are gay... that's a sidenote in the drama of vampires and betrayal. She also tends to write mature characters, twenty somethings usually.

 

Ieshwar: Mind Games. This story does focus on the relationship and dating of the 20 something character but it's vital to the whole Telepath/under attack plot and who is behind it. Again... not teenagers, not angst.

I found all of the authors and specific stories I quoted, that I've read before since I'm willing to look at many different authors and types of stories on GA, just by clicking on the Sci-fi genre and scrolling through 1 1/2 pages. That's it! The thing with the genres is that you can pick more than one. Quite of my stories have drama in them so I use that along with fantasy or mystery or whatever else I use. So yes, drama tends to get glutted. That doesn't mean it's all teenage angst, even my high school story was focused on the fact the dad was trying to kill the son for a multitude of reasons well beyond the fact that he's gay and meets a guy.

 

If you're not finding anything but gayngst stories, you're being lazy and not looking. They're here on the site and I'm sure if I were to spend another 10 minutes looking I could point out a dozen or more that I've read that go well beyond your basic high school coming out angst that everyone seems to be denigrating.

[Lugh]

It Was A...

 

FYI

 

starts in high school for all of 4000 words (out of about 60k posted).

 

Ok so the characters are rich, well some of them, and royal to boot... but not all of them, in fact the missing main character is not... nor is his family. And if anyone wants to call Rix white... feel free, but I suggest you don't do it to his face.

 

Erebi Seeking...

yes there are teenagers, but they aren't having sex with each other and no one is rich, in fact everyone is working class or poverty level, most are struggling to make ends meet and people are just doing what they got to do to survive.

 

some of the others...

meh.. you go read them.. a couple don't even have sex... or teenagers... so people need to get over themselves... we have quite a bit of variety and if you want more, then invite authors you like to join and post their stories. It's called growth curve.. the teenager agnsty types are doing all the inviting so that is where the biggest growth is... you want something different.... invite something different.

[Sidd]

Well, I guess the pot's been stirred a bit since I started this post. I hope the discussion doesn't descend to US Congress level of nastiness. I'm sure GA members are better than that.

 

In no way did I suggest we don't have very skilled writers here. We also have writers that are just starting out. I don't care about critique to my own work or to individual pieces based on their merit; I welcome it because I prefer honesty about my stories, good or bad. However, when I see someone say, "Actually, I was about to give up on GA altogether and just dismiss it as place where semi-illiterate teens come to get cheap thrills. Just kidding. Or not. Ouch!" I'm not inclined to think that they have read all that much on the site and if they're going to make condescending comments such as that, perhaps they shouldn't. That's not a critique, it's an insult to both the writers and readers on GA, imo.

 

Well, I thought that my comment was in the spirit of ribbing between friends since most of the replies thus far were expressed in the spirit of good humor.. My sincere apologies for giving offense. Contrary to your assumptions, however, I have read a good number of stories on this site with the caveat that they have been stories and authors with the highest number of reputation points (there are too many stories here not to go by some criteria, and that seems to be the best one to me), and that is what I based my comments on as far as GA goes. Most of these authors have expressed that they are able and willing to take negative though constructive criticism of their work.

 

My thanks to clumber for his replies. I don't know if his purpose was to defend me specifically, but like him I also felt that I was more or less being invited to go somewhere else. I also take offense to being called a troll. I offer my critiques in the spirit of improving the site and encouraging authors to write better, and that is all. I am also confident that even the least experience writers on the site are not babies, and taking into account that most writers are very sensitive, there is no need for coddling. And just for the record, the highest praise I have given to any story on the site has been for a first effort writer (see A New Life by Acedias).

 

As for the purpose of creating the post, I will say again it is not the specific cliches I outlined that really bug me, but the fact that I seem to read story after story which amounts to being a repetition of the last in one way or another. And I don't limit this observation to GA but to all of online gay fiction as a whole.

[Cia]

Do you offer your critiques via pm? Because by checking your content I saw 1 story topic that you replied to and not a single review. So... I don't know you and I would guess most members here don't 'know' you since you've only been here just over 2 months. I've been accused of coming across wrong to people who don't know me so I can see how that would happen. As far as I could tell you didn't critique anyone's work specifically in this but those comments you made certainly judged the site. That will get to those of us who work so hard with the writers and the story portion of this site. I'm part of the Writer's Support Team, I help moderate GA Stories; I also often help guide new members in how to post and try to review and offer advice on their stories. There is a reason why I've beta read the most stories on GA and I'm in the top 10 for editing. I want to help writers by offering whatever I know to them.

 

I think everyone has room to improve but no one can without someone being honest when commenting. Pointing out flaws or offering advice is a great way to connect with the writers on the site and I would hope more readers would do so. I get what you were trying to do here; I'll even agree with you on those cliches, I've seen them time and time again. Asking for help finding the types of stories that aren't full of them that was even a good idea. But you should watch HOW you ask, especially when you're a relative stranger to most of the writers on the site.

[Palantir]

Un-cliched stories??? Meaningless. All stories are cliched. I heard somewhere that all stories fit into about fifteen categories.

To expect someone to be un-cliched when there have been fifty zillion stories written is unrealistic.

It's the treatment of the cliche that counts. Twenty people can use the same cliche and one of them works. You know it when you read it. It stands out, pushes your buttons, makes you marvel. Being a cliche has nothing to do with it.

Diversity of genre is no indication of better quality either. Once again it's not the content that makes it good. It's the way it's written.

 

For goodness sake - the title of the site is 'Gay Authors'. You must expect a preponderence of stories with a gay theme and if that theme involves mainly a few types so what?

The authors are telling the stories that are in their mind and heart to tell, not making a clinical decision to write something based on what's not written by other people.

 

As to what consists a good story, that's moot. One man's meat is another man's poison. Is that a cliche? - well, it's still true.

As I see it GA encourages authors to write as well as they are able, gives a means of recognition when they do, and encourages constructive criticism. What more can GA do? - insist we're all Shakespeares?

[Myr]

Well said Iarwain.

 

Sidd:

Actually, I was about to give up on GA altogether and just dismiss it as place where semi-illiterate teens come to get cheap thrills. Just kidding. Or not. Ouch!

 

I missed this earlier, but this is hardly constructive criticism, in fact, it is a blatant rule violation that if said in the Soapbox would give you a 2 week vacation.

[clumber]

Un-cliched stories??? Meaningless. All stories are cliched. I heard somewhere that all stories fit into about fifteen categories.

To expect someone to be un-cliched when there have been fifty zillion stories written is unrealistic.

It's the treatment of the cliche that counts. Twenty people can use the same cliche and one of them works. You know it when you read it. It stands out, pushes your buttons, makes you marvel. Being a cliche has nothing to do with it.

Diversity of genre is no indication of better quality either. Once again it's not the content that makes it good. It's the way it's written.

 

For goodness sake - the title of the site is 'Gay Authors'. You must expect a preponderence of stories with a gay theme and if that theme involves mainly a few types so what?

The authors are telling the stories that are in their mind and heart to tell, not making a clinical decision to write something based on what's not written by other people.

 

As to what consists a good story, that's moot. One man's meat is another man's poison. Is that a cliche? - well, it's still true.

As I see it GA encourages authors to write as well as they are able, gives a means of recognition when they do, and encourages constructive criticism. What more can GA do? - insist we're all Shakespeares?

 

 

Before explaining how cliche is unavoidable it helps to understand what cliche is.

 

Cliche is not the same thing as "has been written before".

 

There is a difference between saying murder mysteries always involve a person dieing and having the butler do it every time. Cliches are particularly problematic when they allow you to predict the route the story will take, sometimes which a fairly depressing degree of accuracy.

 

While the ability to predict a storyline may not always be a bad thing, it requires a writer with a lot of skill to make the story be still enjoyable. Without that skill the story comes across as tired and boring.

 

For example, the strong, dark handsome stranger who will become the main character's Poetically Troubled Lover or the quirky adorable fem guy who, in storyland, is pretty much begging to die.

 

 

Also, about expecting a lot of 'gay themed stories'... the problem is that for a lot of the characters their main defining character trait is liking the cock. Oh, and whinging about it. This isn;t entertaining to read and it strongly gives the impression that gay people are heavily defined by their sexuality which...well...it sets the LGBT Rights movement back by about 20 years for a start (and isn't that interesting to read, either).

 

 

Well said Iarwain.

 

Sidd:

 

 

I missed this earlier, but this is hardly constructive criticism, in fact, it is a blatant rule violation that if said in the Soapbox would give you a 2 week vacation.

 

Odd, I was always under the impression that discussion of the rules was strongly discouraged or, in many cases, expressly forbidden in the pursuit of...well...something or other.

 

Besides, he said himself that it was meant in the spirit of humour. Does that make it official GA policy to ban all jokes you don't find funny...? Iffy ground, to be sure.

 

Martin

[Graeme]

My two cents worth (and that Australian dollar has improved in value over the last year, so it's worth more than it used to be )

 

We're talking about a number of different things here, so it's not surprising that we not getting a meeting of minds. All of these things have been mentioned at various times in the discussion above, but maybe it'll help if they're collated.

 

1. This is a site for amateur writers. Many of the writers here are writing and posting publicly for the first time. It therefore shouldn't be a surprise that they're not stretching the boundaries of what's possible. When you're starting out, it's often easiest to stick to a 'tried-and-trusted' path... which is often cliche-laden.

 

2. Cliches stories can be popular. There's one genre in general fiction (romance) where there are publishers who ONLY publish formulaic stories. The readers want them that way, so the authors and publishers produce them for those readers. With some publishers you can predict the general path of the stories before you even start - it's just detail that's different between each story. But in these cases it's the journey that the reader is going along for, not a surprise twist or ending. If they don't get the ending the expect, they'll be disappointed.

 

3. Writing stories that don't have cliched components is almost impossible. What's more achieveable are stories where cliches are twisted to become something new. Blowing my own horn for a moment, I've done that in two of my novels. The first was a straight forward high school coming out story... told from the point of view of a homophobic straight guy. The other is the straight guy who's gay for just one guy... again told from the point of view of the straight guy who feels trapped by his situation.

 

Another achievable option are stories where cliches are minor parts of the story. dkstories's stories have been mentioned, and they're a great example of this. The characters are gay, but the story is not about them being gay - the story is always about something else.

 

4. Writing non-cliched stories generally requires experience. Not necessarily writing experience (though that helps); it could be reading experience or world experience. In effect, it's finding something to write about that's 'new'. That is NOT easy. Out of my four novels, two are fairly standard 'cliched' stories. In one I've tried to present the story in a different way (using embedded links), but ultimately it's a cliche-ridden romance... and it's popular. This gets back to what was said earlier - a well written story can be enjoyable even if it's cliched. A non-cliched story that's not well written is not going to be well read. A non-cliched story that's well written really stands out from the crowd... because they're so rare. That's not just true here, but across the entire literary world.

 

5. We've had the discussion in the past in various threads, but, to put it simply, the most popular genre here and at many other sites is romance. Romance stories tend to be cliched. It doesn't matter if they're gay or straight romance stories, thought the cliches tend to be different between the two. Most authors are writing for what is the largest audience - the romance lovers. That is to be expected and shouldn't surprise anyone. Dom Luka is acknowledged as a brilliant writer by many people, but since he write romance, yes, there's a lot of cliches in his stories. That doesn't stop the stories from being extremely popular because the writing is so good.

 

6. We do have other genres here, but you need to look for them. When you do, you start to find the stories that are different. A comment was made about how many stories feel the same. Well, duh, that's what the romance genre is all about. Move out of that genre and the stories no longer feel the same. dkstories does SF and Fantasy very well. Lugh writes great fantasy. Vance has horror stories. Myr has SF and Fantasy as well. Nephylim's another non-romance author to have a look at.

 

In summary, cliched stories have their place. Non-cliched stories are great when you can find them, but they're not easy to write, especially for beginning authors, and it's just a case of appreciating them when you do find one that you like.

[Cia]

I agree with practically everything you said Graeme, except for the part about Nephy not being a romance writer. Granted, most of the pairings are anything but ordinary, but most of her stories include some type of love affair. It's the way she varies them and really challenges the idea of romance that I think makes that aspect of them seem so unromance-like. In that, I think she is doing exactly what you said, taking a 'cliche' type of story and going beyond what the reader expects to receive when they start reading. That also supports your theory as to why they have been so popular.

[Adam Phillips]

As a guy whose writing here resembles that remark, I thought I'd speak up.

 

I make my living by writing these days, but not by writing narrative. I'm strictly an amateur in that arena. My work at this site displays many of the characteristics that provoked the original post in this thread, and I'm pretty much unapologetic about that. The supposed clichéd conventions being discussed here are chronically interesting to me, regardless of the many other kinds of reading I do, for reasons that have to do with my own life experience. I look for stories here that trade in the themes that tire the original poster of this thread, and I have a suspicion that a lot of readers at GA do too. Not every reader and not ever writer here is interested in treading that ground over and over, but I'll bet a lot of them are. And what's wrong with that?

 

To name two stories I have some intimate familiarity with as examples, my own Crosscurrents and Dan Kincaid's It Started With Brian are cut from the same dang well-worn cloth; there is a sameness to them. There's a reason for that, and the reason is not our lack of ability--though we may both lack ability--but that's a topic for another post. And there are plenty of other stories like those two here, but even so, within that sameness, there's also some pleasing distinctiveness from story to story. For me as a reader, anyway. I don't read voraciously here, but I have my favorite GA authors, and I keep coming back...and I generally look for stories that deal with those themes.

 

It seemed pretty clear to me from the first time I stopped by that while there's diversity here, there are some common narrative interests shared by the people who write and read here. We're not all in lockstep, as a number of respondents in this thread have noted, but the original post was correct in observing that there are many authors here working with the same themes, and it's possible to overdose on those as a reader.

 

Still, as one of those readers, I was never concerned with the preponderance of those themes. It's fine with me. This is not the only place I encounter narrative. It's not even the only place I encounter "gay-themed" narrative. So it never occurred to me that either the site hosts or the amateur authors contributing here should have to apologize for not meeting enough of my literary needs or for not having a broad-enough literary range.

 

Those of you who tried to remind us that this is a genre fiction site are on the money. Genre fiction doesn't have to be dreadfully repetitive, you may protest...but I wonder. One guy's "dreadfully" is another guy's "comfortingly," I'll bet. And why not? No need to knock the authors or the readers who enjoy that. Vive la différence, right?

 

It's like the blues. The musical blues, I mean. Yeah, there are variations to the template; and those can be fun. But there are innumerable examples of blues tunes which knock out those same 12 bars, harmonically...over and over and over and over and over. As a guy who likes blues tunes, I'm fine with it. Bring it. That's not all I listen to, but them 12 bars are almost endlessly welcome to me. It does stuff to me I like to have done. We don't generally knock blues tunes for sounding "clichéd." We expect it. Look for it, even. If we want something else, we go look for something else. How absurd would it be to roll your eyes on the three millionth hearing of those twelve bars of harmonic changes and to say, "Can't these guys come up with something else? How lame." In my opinion, it's the same thing with the repetitive conventions we see here that make a couple of you so unhappy. They're there for the people who like 'em. You're free to not like 'em. Or to vary your diet if the sameness gets to be too much. There's a lifetime of other places to go for superb reads. But what's the point of getting nasty? That's going to get you what you want?

 

My grandfather used to read Louis L'Amour books. My grandmother used to read Emilie Loring romances. By my lights, if you've read one book in those genres, you've read them all. Talk about cliché and convention! But hosts of contented readers would disagree. I understand the motivation and the frustrations of the original poster. I just can't relate to them.

 

The site is what it is. There's some very, very nice writing here. But it doesn't keep me from pursuing my reading of the great books of Western civilization, or of American classics from the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, or of everything that hack Stephen King ever writes, or of talented popular writers, or of random authors whose stuff I pull off the library bookshelves, or even of self-published stuff available on my Kindle. If I want something I'm not getting here, I go somewhere else. That doesn't mean I abandon the place. It just means that I realize I'm more likely get what I want by looking somewhere else than I am by trying to get the authors here to change their ways in order to satisfy my wish for greater literary diversity. Likewise, if I'm looking for more polish and more consistent quality, for an escape from "clichéd convention" I'll probably head to the library. I hear that some of those authors were actually paid for their stories. Who knew?

 

The authors here are all doing their own things as amateurs. Some of them will find specific constructive criticism helpful and will appreciate it, but it's probably unrealistic to think that a general (and more than somewhat catty) indictment of tired conventions you encounter here will make the site's authors feel all warm and fuzzy and inspired to please you by working harder at their craft.

 

I'm not telling anybody to take a hike. Far from it. Read here, and when you get tired of reading here, read somewhere else. That's what I do.