Your Life and Your Sexuality

[Finn]

A touchy topic for some, I assume? I apologize if it's an offensive question, or even if it's the wrong place to ask it (the lines are blurry, between the forums), but I must ask...

 

I've read a few highly-rated stories on GA over the last few weeks, and have noticed a slightly-disturbing... characteristic in pretty much all of them. Normally, I wouldn't really mind--I mean, stories need drama, don't they? Gotta spawn it somehow.

 

And have the main character hate himself/herself(?) is certainly a way to get it, ain't it? Pretty much all the stories I've read have had the gay main character just absolutely disturbed with himself, disgusted by... his ways? (At least in the beginning, anyway.)

 

It ticks me off, as I really can't see from where they're coming. I talked to a friend over it, and he suggested it--the self-hate and disgust--is birthed from the character's upbringing and environment.

 

But, I'm really interested in it for some reason. Is it realistic for a... character/human/person to be disgusted with their sexuality? And just be extremely fearful of telling /anyone/ about it, for fear of being rejected? Rejected by the people they've known for years? The closest of friends, and even family?

 

I mean, it seems plausible (Real Life is a scary, scary, ridiculous place, after all), but... I don't know, I have trouble seeing it... I'm not afraid of being rejected by my family nor my friends (most  of the latter know, told in a rather casual, off-hand way). Though, that might just be because I A.) don't give any concrete number of fraks, and B.) live in an "uber-liberal" state? Maybe even C.) I'm crazy AF.

 

Anyway, I realize I'm terrible at this discussion-spurring thing, so I'll summarize: Are you or were you afraid of being rejected by your family and friends for being gay? If so, why? Did/do you hate/feel disgusted with yourself for it; for being gay? Do you think it's founded, for one to be fearful of having their close ones abandon them for coming out? Why?

 

I'm asking this as in four of the last five stories I've read have had the main characters be extremely fearful of telling their family and friends that they're gay (I'm not judging it, I'm just questioning and trying to understand it). Rory in Desert Droppings was batshite afraid of coming out, as was Jake in In Due Time. Owen in The Long Way; hell, even Billy Chase in The Secret Life of Billy Chase. Only characters who weren't ridiculously fearful were the guys in A Single Promise, but they were adults (and ticked me off for other reasons, so all is good ).

 

Feel free to tell me if I'm just reading too much into /books/ and am being silly.

 

Also feel free to direct me towards further uber-literature; I'll hate you for it, but I do so enjoy reading. Cookie if it doesn't have a character who's afraid of this stuff.

[rustle]

Yes, Finn, people are afraid of admitting their sexuality. Fear and self-loathing aren't far apart. It's not just an unpleasant fiction. In some places and in some families, it can literally mean a death sentence. Matthew Shepard didn't die all that long ago.

 

I grew up in a deeply conservative state, and lived in fear of anyone finding out. I don't make friends easily, and didn't want to jeopardize the few friendships I had. Mom was strung out on valium every day of my teenage years (prescribed, of course), and starting to date again. My siblings are older, and each left home at 18. I didn't feel much attachment there, and still don't. Sometimes, you don't want to lose what little you have. I still keep it on the down low at work.

 

It was a different culture when I was your age. Get hold of the Mike Wallace "60 Minutes" episode in which he discusses "The Homosexuals." The stigma assoociated with same-sex attraction was suffocating. Having had gay friends older than myself reminisce about back in their day, things were far more frightening then. A friend of mine attended a gay party with a female friend. The party got raided, and the cops reported the presence of each attendee to their bosses the next day to get them fired, which they were, every one. My friend talked his way out of it, since he went with a woman.

 

I've known guys to get disowned, disinherited, and be given 15 minutes to pack one bag and get out before they got shot. I know several folks on this site who have heartbreaking tales to tell.

 

But, you know what? Your question gives me hope. To hear that one guy grew up in an environment where he felt able to be himself, and could unselfconsciously ask that question? That sounds an incredible fiction to me.

Edited February 3, 2013 by rustle

[JamesSavik]

We are all a product of our culture and our time. We simply can not escape the influence of it and our own experience.

 

I was a gay teen during the seventies and early eighties in Mississippi of all places. Although I didn't chose it, I was out and took a lot of abuse for it.

 

It is a fiction that gay people are weak. I have seen with my own eyes young gay men and women display the courage of lions and the mental toughness of warriors.

 

There is more to strength than the physical. More to power than force.

 

If I can communicate this truth through my writings, I think that I have been successful.

Edited February 4, 2013 by jamessavik

[Michael9344]

You've said it yourself :

I'm not afraid of

being rejected by my family nor my friends

(most of the latter know, told in a rather casual,

off-hand way). Though, that might just be

because I A.) don't give any concrete number of

fraks, and B.) live in an "uber-liberal" state? Maybe

even C.) I'm crazy AF.

 

For me, I'm very much afraid of my family rejecting me when I eventually let them know about my sexuality. I live in a very conservative society. A place where ppl who has AIDS are discriminated. You can't even imagine what they do to ppl they think gay. Is it weak to keep that part of my life mostly secret? No, maybe. I don't care. It'd be stupid not to. I just know that it takes a lot strength and energy to keep this kind of secret. So it's very founded to dread my parents finding out.

Frankly, I've not thought about those things you said until today. I've never felt disgusted with myself cos of my sexuality. I don't hate myself. I don't even pity myself. But that might have something to do with the circumstances surrounding my life. I know that some ppl have it worse. And I think when you meet some of them, you'll understand.

Oh, and lest I forget. I think you've not read a lot of gay stories on here.

[Finn]

Hmm... Thanks, all three of you. I'm kind of really out of touch with the world. Much like Michael, I haven't really given much thought to the /other/ possible... situations, not until yesterday, when I noticed the similarities. Might be a bit closed-minded of me, but I hadn't really thought it would be as bad for some as it's turned out to be. I guess I'm just quite cynical? Never really thought people could/would really disown once-loved ones, over something... that should be trivial to the second person.

 

Rustle: I'll search it up. Unfortunately, it's a bit late right now to go off adventuring, though. America seems to have been a frightful place, just forty years ago. I had a talk with someone elsewhere, and the racism he endured--segregation--just kind of blew my mind. I'd known it had happened, but I hadn't really been aware how much it really, stung. The world does seem to be progressing forward, though, away from this ridiculous discrimination.

 

Though, you shouldn't give me too much credit. I might not have a problem with admitting I'm gay, but neither do I... proactive seek to project it? I'm not active about it, is what I mean, aha; if even /that/ makes sense. It might just be cause I'm a tad introverted though, heh.

 

Nonetheless, cheers, bro! \o/

 

James: We're all human, at the end of it. We can all kick ass and take names, when required.

 

You've my condolences, for what it's worth. You seem like a sturdy fellow, though, so... Your stories aren't ridiculously long; I'll try to read a few soon. I trust they'll stand out from the other few I've read, at least over the way you tackle it.

 

Michael!: Aye, you three have given me some stuff to mull over. I'm sorry to hear about your, less than pleasant conditions, though I'm glad to hear you're not taking it out on yourself--that was one of the thing I've wondered over, if the aggression towards the self is just fictitious, or based in reality. It's assuring to know it's probably just plot.

 

Though, I agree--I've barely read anything. Link me to your favorites, dammit.

[Aussie Rob]

Yes Finn it does happen, and make sense, or at least did. But perhaps also what you are seeing is partly an age related phenomena, or geographic.

 

In my school year of 126 students, there were no out kids. Not one. At least 6 have come out in the 20 years since. The idea of being out then, would have been crazy. You would have painted a big neon sign on yourself.

 

Now, I talk to my nieces and nephews, and its just normal that some  of their classmates are gay. It's just another fact about them, like what football team they support. This is however in a big city and affluent schools.

 

So it would be a natural for someone of my age perhaps to write that sort of scenario, but maybe as time goes on it will become less an assumption you can make.

 

Your question gives me hope though, that we can get to where we should be, and perhaps in some places we are getting there.

 

My feeling always had been, that this crap ends when people start asking themselves why on earth would you have a problem with someone being gay, rather than why wouldn't you. When we actually sit down and say, it does not make sense. So perhaps your question is a sign on the road to where I hope we are going, to the point where homophobia seems as sensible as phrenology.

[Yettie One]

Heya Fin
 

I really don't blame you for failing to understand why it is a common theme of gay angst in the process of coming out.

 

The first thing is to look at culture.

 

Try for one moment to put yourself in the shoes of an Asian or Indian man who is gay and brought up in a strict Hindu or Muslim tradition.

Heck they stone adulteresses in the street, and hang homosexuals.

Extreme side of the coin yes. But culture has a fundamental role to play in the way we mould and shape our identity as we grow up. For this reason it will be common for people that find themselves facing the horror's of being ostracised by family first and foremost, then community, then possibly even society as they see it, that freaks out the mind of a young person.

 

You are 18 now and look at the world through eyes that have witnessed some of what life has to offer. As you said yourself, it is a bloody scary world out there.

For some more so in other ways than others. Take New Yorkers. In Sept 2001, they were ill at ease living in their own city. They didn't feel safe. They didn't know if tomorrow held new terrors, or another attack. That has its effect on the people, and more so on the generation of children growing up in that time frame. Had you at that time come out and said that you could understand why the Arab world were angry at America and spoke out in support of the Arabs in New York or even largely in much of the US at the time, people would scorn you, look down on you, make you feel different and certainly not part of the community or social circle. Many Asian people experienced horrible prejudice in this time, for no fault of their own, simply because of their skin colour.

 

I have chosen this experience as an example of prejudice within a society at a particular time that you can identify with, as you saw it happening in your time.

For many of the writers of gay fiction, they are expressing their own experiences through their stories. Life really is like this for some people mate. It is not easy to accept you are different from what is considered 'normal' for some. It is hard to work out why you have these different feelings when you are a youngster and you don't have anyone to talk to about things.

 

Kids today are on the large part encouraged to talk about things. They are given a better understanding of things through sexual education, even if many of us adults don't fully agree with the methods of sexual education. Youngsters today are exposed to a world of sexuality almost from day one. I have met 8 year olds in the UK that know all about 'how babies are made'. Hell when I was 8 the most important thing was who's house I was going to for a swim today. 

 

In ending, here are my own experiences. I grew up in Africa, in a British Colonial society. I also grew up in a very Christian home, my whole family were strong in their faith, and as I am sure you know, sexual diviance as seen by the church and the chrisitan faith is a no no. That is also very much the way of the society that existed in the area I lived. Further to that it is still illegal to be gay in Zimbabwe, and that is another reason to add to the confusion.

 

I kinda figured I was gay pretty early on, although I didn't really understand it till I was more into my mid teens. However, while I didn't hate myself because I was gay, I hated the fact I couldn't go on dates, couldn't be a normal kid growing up like my peers, holding hands and making out in public. I couldn't simply walk up to anyone and say I liked them. I often used to wonder why I felt these feelings that were so wrong in everyone's view. It was a sin to lie with another man, so why would I want to do it so badly. I mean why was this burden given to me?

 

The angst for me came when I met a person, and for 5 years we were together, but in that whole time, NO ONE ever knew about us. Our closest friends had no idea at all. Our families never knew. That in so many ways caused so much pressure for us, that made my view of life, love and relationships sour. To this day I struggle with the idea that it is ok to be loud and out and proud of who I am. I naturally hide myself, drawn to the safety of anonymity and being under the covers, and on the flip side of the coin, I can't really understand how people can be so open and free about their sexuality.

 

Maybe it is not me failing to understand it, and more me being jealous of the freedom you enjoy, I don't really know. But what ever it is, I can relate to the angst and frustrations I read of in so much of the gay fiction here on GA. I've lived through it and so maybe that is why I don't mind it so much. I hope that in sharing my own thoughts and ideas I can present the other side of the table for you to see, and if you try to place yourself in my shoes, then perhaps you could understand why when I write, my writing might be tainted with my own experiences. 

 

I can also tell you I admire your curiosity and desire to understand.

[Y_B]

I'm not particularly self-loathing or disgusted with myself, but the environment I grew up in, family values, friends i had etc made it a point to me that if I wanted to do what I wanted to do in school, keep the same friends, upheld the same social status, maybe even getting hired, etc, it wasn't in my best interest to let any know the details of my sexuality. Not that I would have been in physical harm or outright rejected by society in entirely but it didn't feel comfortable. I've spent my whole life establishing a level of comfort, I know how people react to me, I know what to do to make things go my way, i don't know how to do any of that as an openly gay person, not to mention I do have outright homophobic family and friends. If there's anything that disgruntles me, its the situation I'm in due to my sexuality rather than my sexuality by itself. Like Rustle said, sometimes people just don't like to lose what they have and what I have sort of works in a weird, masochistic way.

 

It's funny that when you're closeted you think your family or friends don't understand you but the gay community definitely should but ironically, I sorta discovered that's not the case (not talking about you btw). The gay community is so prejudiced against itself in so many ways I don't even know if we can really be considered a community. I've had gay guys tell me they don't get me because I'm closeted or that they're not ok with being with someone who hates himself or they think my life is just a huge drama bomb ticking off the seconds. There's only 1 gay guy I consider a good friend of mine and he's open and sort of flamboyant and I was asking him advice about something not that long ago about dealing with a situation with another friend of mine who isn't gay. His response to me was just to tell the other guy I'm gay and go from there, I was like really?? from all you know about me and what I want/don't want your solution is for me to come out? ....if there's something I ask for from someone, it's understanding, and not many people do. 

[Andy78]

I never really had an issue.  My coming out to my parents was practically a non-event (considering it was around the time that the AIDS stories first made major media attention).  Actually I think my Mum liked first my boyfriend more than she like me

 

Though I've always accepted that here in the UK the GLBT community have things easier than in many other countries.  Having said that, you need to keep in mind, that even here in the UK homosexuality was essentially illegal until the 1960s, with the age of consent for gay sex being 21 (it was only 16 for straight couples).

 

Although the both of us were out at school, we were low-key and didn't hold hands or kiss or anything; but we weren't shy in our homes with family.  We used to sleep over at each other's, and it wasn't unheard for our parents to comment the next morning on certain noises they had heard coming from the bedroom.

 

I work in a hospital and I know of at least a dozen openly gay staff (a mix of doctors, nurses and admin staff), and I've never heard one negative comment directed to any of us.

 

When you look at gay teens in literature you need to keep in mind the age and background of the author; some of it is a product of author bias, combined with the traditional axiom "write what you know".  An author who is in their teens and grew up in practically anywhere in Western or Central Europe will have their gay teen character not worrying about their orientation, whereas an author who is my age (or older) and grew up in say, Scotland or the former Soviet Union, will have their gay teen being very fearful of having their sexuality discovered.

 

Given my many years of positive experiences I'd find it nearly impossible to write a gay teen who hated himself because of his sexuality.

 

I do still enjoy reading the angsty side of gay literature though.

[Cyhort]

I'm not in the self loathing category either, but I did have a problem coming out. For a lot of different reasons. At first it was because I'm ridiculously private, if I don't think something is anyone elses business I won't talk about it and I get pissed if someone asks about it, even if it's something small like "what are you doing today?" But when I decided that, yeah, ok sure it's other peoples business now because I'm in a relationship and I don't wanna hide it I still had a problem telling my parents. I wasn't even worried that they'd have a problem with it, I was 99% sure that they wouldn't and even if they did they're the type of people who would pretend they didn't so I wouldn't feel uncomfortable, but for me I just felt really weird about people who've known me all my life suddenly looking at me and only seeing "the gay kid", even if they weren't being judgey about it. Plus, when you tell someone something you lose control of the information. My mom's told me some pretty personal stuff that her friends told her about their kids and families without me even asking, and I didn't want her to tell all her friends about me and have them talk about me behind my back, so even when I did tell her I made sure she didn't tell anyone else until pretty recently actually.

 

I totally agree with Y_B about the gay "comunity" though. It's definitely not a commuity, it's a clique, and like any clique it's only great if you're exactly like everyone else. But if you don't dress right or act right or have the right opinions or think the right way then you're ignored or made fun of or insulted or told you're a self hater or not a "real" gay. It's so stupid and high school and it'll never stop amazing me how a group of people that can legitimately say that they suffer from bigotry and hate can turn around and do the same damn thing to "their own kind".

[Fishwings]

A lot of people in this world experience angst and self loathing for a variety of reasons -- from sexuality, to eating disorders, to lung cancer, and even for being jobless -- and are all stigmatized by society in a way that makes they want to hide that part of themselves. When dealing with such issues I think the important point is to take a step back and realize that we are ourselves, no one else, and because of that we could never fully understand what someone else is going through so should approach everyone with an open, non-judgmental mind.

 

@YB and @Cyhort, I know the feel. To this day it still surprises me on the amount of internalized homophobia, prejudice, racism, and just downright not-understanding prevalent in some gay communities. You'd think that as a group that has undergone oppression in society for so long that we would all be more open minded towards people who are different, but sadly, it is not always the case. "Cliques" as Cyhort described, are formed by people of likeness, and as we all know, cliques ostracize people who are different.

 

But good on you for seeking out answers here Finn. Listening to other perspectives/education is the best road to understanding.

 

Let's all love more and hug trees and stop the h8 ok homies 

Edited February 3, 2013 by FishWings

[Finn]

/me beats the reply box with a crowbar.

 

It just hate stuff I spent an hour typing up.

 

So, I'm afraid I can't get personal with each of you anymore; I'm not retyping an hour's worth of words.

 

But, anyway, thanks for the words, y'all. I certainly appreciate the help and different views you're providing. Glad to hear there isn't so much self-depreciation in real life, just the fear of coming out--and it's certainly a reasonable and understandable fear, so it seems. Guess the environment really does help shape a person.

 

Though, there are two slightly-off topic things that were brought up...

 

Y_B; understanding does seem to be a difficult thing to do, for many people. I certainly have trouble doing it, at times (as in this case, though I think I'm turning around, thanks to ye lot), and I'm fairly certain most in my life don't really /understand/ me. Know me, maybe. But understand, not probably.

 

Concerning communities and cliques and hypocrisy and, senselessness; people are strange. Even stupid at times. It really does blow my mind how someone of a certain group acts against that group, whether it be silently, or actively (*glances at silly American politicians*). Even outside of homosexuality; I've heard lately that the Hispanic community is aligned against itself at times, the better off speaking against the less. Haven't seen it myself, though, as I've said, I'm outta sync, yo! o/o/o/o/o/o/

 

Thanks, though, all of you. I appreciate the help, as well as your willingness to share stuff about yourself. With some of the real-life situations shared, I think I'm recognizing that, yeah, it's possible for someone to be afraid of coming out, and the rejection. Let's hope I don't want to violently chainsaw the next angsty gay teen character for being such a spaz.

 

Lol, quotas for upvotes.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Finn

[Graeme]

The same as many of the 'older' members, here, the culture when I grew up was not conducive to coming out. There were hints that it was getting better, but not enough for an introverted young man (myself) to do anything about it. The one time when I could have changed things, I ended up not finding the courage to do so (see my autobiographical short story To Open A Door). That occurred when I was 18. It took until I was 40 before I found the courage to tell someone I'm gay.

 

I didn't have any real self-loathing, it was mainly just fear of the consequences. Yes, I had my moments, such as after I'd had a sexual encounter with a much older man on a train (I was 16, he was probably late 20s or early 30s). That encounter I had encouraged, but after it took place, I was disgusted with myself. It took a couple of days before I was able to put it behind myself. But that sort of self-loathing was rare.

 

As for the fear, I had a life outside of being gay. Being gay wasn't the centre of my life, so I didn't see that I needed to push it to the fore to find out what it was like to be openly gay. That, along with my naturally introverted nature, meant that I just let life roll along, always aware of who I was sexually attracted to, but doing nothing about it (apart from the rare anonymous sexual encounter). Then I found someone who was sexually attracted to me, was kind and caring, and whose company I enjoyed. I eventually married her I still consider myself to be gay, even though I'm in a stable heterosexual relationship (I told her I'm gay soon after the birth of our second son - triggering six months of hell before we got through it).

 

Today, though, Melbourne, and Australia in general, is a very different place. Homosexuality has gone mainstream, in that it's discussed openly by leading figures in the community, with many (not all, though) very supportive. Melbourne's Midsumma festival is celebrating its 25th anniversary this year, and its being advertised very publicly. In addition, prominent figures have marched in the parade - this year, a couple of top level football players, and in a past years the Police Commissioner marched.

 

So today is a very different culture from when I grew up. Just like when I grew up, drinking and driving was socially acceptable and the idea of a designated driver was treated with ridicule but now the situation is the reverse, homosexually has gone from socially unacceptable to socially acceptable over the last 20-30 years. That doesn't mean it's all sweetness and light - it's not. There's still discrimination, and there's still abuse. But things are significantly better today than they were thirty years ago when I had to face whether to come out of the closet.

[Ieshwar]

Are you or were you afraid of being rejected by your family and friends for being gay? If so, why? Did/do you hate/feel disgusted with yourself for it; for being gay? Do you think it's founded, for one to be fearful of having their close ones abandon them for coming out? Why?Are you or were you afraid of being rejected by your family and friends for being gay? If so, why? Did/do you hate/feel disgusted with yourself for it; for being gay? Do you think it's founded, for one to be fearful of having their close ones abandon them for coming out? Why?

 

I think there is a difference between fear of rejection and self-loathing. For me, personally, I never had any self-loathing issue. Being gay is as natural as being straight. But do I have a fear of coming out? Yes, definitely. I remember the first time I came out. I was so scared I couldn't even say 'gay'. Lol. Just because I know it's nothing wrong that doesn't mean that the society would have the same opinion. That's what it's like in a conservative society. I know I can stand up and be different. But that's what happens in stories. In real life, it would mean daily alienation, ridicule and even aggression (I'm not exaggerating here). By the way, being gay is still illegal here. So yeah, it sucks.

 

I understand your point though. How come if someone love you can reject you for being gay? Well, in many cases, gay guys take years to accept the fact of being gay. For someone who isn't gay and who has no idea what it is like, there is a major chance that they won't understand. 

 

As for being disgusted, I do know lots of gay who have self-loathing issue. My boyfriend hates the fact of being gay. He hates not being same as others. He does not say it much, but I know. I have known others who have this issue too.

 

Sometimes, fiction do stem out from real life events.

 

Cheers

Ieshwar

 

[Traveller_23]

Heya Fin

 

I really don't blame you for failing to understand why it is a common theme of gay angst in the process of coming out.

 

The first thing is to look at culture.

 

Try for one moment to put yourself in the shoes of an Asian or Indian man who is gay and brought up in a strict Hindu or Muslim tradition.

Heck they stone adulteresses in the street, and hang homosexuals.

Extreme side of the coin yes. But culture has a fundamental role to play in the way we mould and shape our identity as we grow up. For this reason it will be common for people that find themselves facing the horror's of being ostracised by family first and foremost, then community, then possibly even society as they see it, that freaks out the mind of a young person.

 

You are 18 now and look at the world through eyes that have witnessed some of what life has to offer. As you said yourself, it is a bloody scary world out there.

For some more so in other ways than others. Take New Yorkers. In Sept 2001, they were ill at ease living in their own city. They didn't feel safe. They didn't know if tomorrow held new terrors, or another attack. That has its effect on the people, and more so on the generation of children growing up in that time frame. Had you at that time come out and said that you could understand why the Arab world were angry at America and spoke out in support of the Arabs in New York or even largely in much of the US at the time, people would scorn you, look down on you, make you feel different and certainly not part of the community or social circle. Many Asian people experienced horrible prejudice in this time, for no fault of their own, simply because of their skin colour.

 

I have chosen this experience as an example of prejudice within a society at a particular time that you can identify with, as you saw it happening in your time.

For many of the writers of gay fiction, they are expressing their own experiences through their stories. Life really is like this for some people mate. It is not easy to accept you are different from what is considered 'normal' for some. It is hard to work out why you have these different feelings when you are a youngster and you don't have anyone to talk to about things.

 

Kids today are on the large part encouraged to talk about things. They are given a better understanding of things through sexual education, even if many of us adults don't fully agree with the methods of sexual education. Youngsters today are exposed to a world of sexuality almost from day one. I have met 8 year olds in the UK that know all about 'how babies are made'. Hell when I was 8 the most important thing was who's house I was going to for a swim today. 

 

In ending, here are my own experiences. I grew up in Africa, in a British Colonial society. I also grew up in a very Christian home, my whole family were strong in their faith, and as I am sure you know, sexual diviance as seen by the church and the chrisitan faith is a no no. That is also very much the way of the society that existed in the area I lived. Further to that it is still illegal to be gay in Zimbabwe, and that is another reason to add to the confusion.

 

I kinda figured I was gay pretty early on, although I didn't really understand it till I was more into my mid teens. However, while I didn't hate myself because I was gay, I hated the fact I couldn't go on dates, couldn't be a normal kid growing up like my peers, holding hands and making out in public. I couldn't simply walk up to anyone and say I liked them. I often used to wonder why I felt these feelings that were so wrong in everyone's view. It was a sin to lie with another man, so why would I want to do it so badly. I mean why was this burden given to me?

 

The angst for me came when I met a person, and for 5 years we were together, but in that whole time, NO ONE ever knew about us. Our closest friends had no idea at all. Our families never knew. That in so many ways caused so much pressure for us, that made my view of life, love and relationships sour. To this day I struggle with the idea that it is ok to be loud and out and proud of who I am. I naturally hide myself, drawn to the safety of anonymity and being under the covers, and on the flip side of the coin, I can't really understand how people can be so open and free about their sexuality.

 

Maybe it is not me failing to understand it, and more me being jealous of the freedom you enjoy, I don't really know. But what ever it is, I can relate to the angst and frustrations I read of in so much of the gay fiction here on GA. I've lived through it and so maybe that is why I don't mind it so much. I hope that in sharing my own thoughts and ideas I can present the other side of the table for you to see, and if you try to place yourself in my shoes, then perhaps you could understand why when I write, my writing might be tainted with my own experiences. 

 

I can also tell you I admire your curiosity and desire to understand.

 

Yettie One, just a point of clarification. There aren't too many religious people on this site (I think), so I guess I'll play the role. Hindus don't stone people, please don't just lump them together with Muslims. Having said that, LGBTQ people from Hindu communities face other forms of oppression. Certain Muslim countries do stone people I'm ashamed to admit, so you're correct there. 

 

Finn, I haven't read all the posts so what I'll say may have been addressed already. I'm from Bangladesh, and the laws there allow for life imprisonment for being gay etc. No one in recent memory has been prosecuted, but would you want to risk it? That's the kind of situation I find myself in. Homosexuality is taboo and swept under the carpet, so it's hard to gauge how people feel about it and this I think leads to uncertainty and fear. I happen to have Muslim friends who know I'm bisexual and are very supportive. At the same time, there are Muslim fundamentalists in the country who take to the streets when we try to implement laws that facilitate equal rights for women (never mind gay people!). All of this creates a very complicated environment and not everyone deals with it so well. Sorry, I think I've kind of just rambled there...

[Yettie One]

Yettie One, just a point of clarification. There aren't too many religious people on this site (I think), so I guess I'll play the role. Hindus don't stone people, please don't just lump them together with Muslims. Having said that, LGBTQ people from Hindu communities face other forms of oppression. Certain Muslim countries do stone people I'm ashamed to admit, so you're correct there. 

 

Hey Traveller_23 my bad. I accept your rebuke, I should have been more clear about the differences. I am certain I did not intend to infer that any one religion is bad or worse than another, I can point to many other religions that have been or are just as ruthless in one way or another. Sorry to have got it wrong.

 

I do however stand by my point that in a situation where oppression is a possible result of coming out in such communities, the fear of retribution is enough to make anyone baulk at the idea of admitting they are gay.

[Finn]

The same as many of the 'older' members, here, the culture when I grew up was not conducive to coming out. There were hints that it was getting better, but not enough for an introverted young man (myself) to do anything about it. The one time when I could have changed things, I ended up not finding the courage to do so (see my autobiographical short story To Open A Door). That occurred when I was 18. It took until I was 40 before I found the courage to tell someone I'm gay.

 

I didn't have any real self-loathing, it was mainly just fear of the consequences. Yes, I had my moments, such as after I'd had a sexual encounter with a much older man on a train (I was 16, he was probably late 20s or early 30s). That encounter I had encouraged, but after it took place, I was disgusted with myself. It took a couple of days before I was able to put it behind myself. But that sort of self-loathing was rare.

 

As for the fear, I had a life outside of being gay. Being gay wasn't the centre of my life, so I didn't see that I needed to push it to the fore to find out what it was like to be openly gay. That, along with my naturally introverted nature, meant that I just let life roll along, always aware of who I was sexually attracted to, but doing nothing about it (apart from the rare anonymous sexual encounter). Then I found someone who was sexually attracted to me, was kind and caring, and whose company I enjoyed. I eventually married her I still consider myself to be gay, even though I'm in a stable heterosexual relationship (I told her I'm gay soon after the birth of our second son - triggering six months of hell before we got through it).

 

Today, though, Melbourne, and Australia in general, is a very different place. Homosexuality has gone mainstream, in that it's discussed openly by leading figures in the community, with many (not all, though) very supportive. Melbourne's Midsumma festival is celebrating its 25th anniversary this year, and its being advertised very publicly. In addition, prominent figures have marched in the parade - this year, a couple of top level football players, and in a past years the Police Commissioner marched.

 

So today is a very different culture from when I grew up. Just like when I grew up, drinking and driving was socially acceptable and the idea of a designated driver was treated with ridicule but now the situation is the reverse, homosexually has gone from socially unacceptable to socially acceptable over the last 20-30 years. That doesn't mean it's all sweetness and light - it's not. There's still discrimination, and there's still abuse. But things are significantly better today than they were thirty years ago when I had to face whether to come out of the closet.

 

Whoa. Sounds like you led and continue to lead an interesting life. I agree, though, that being gay doesn't have to be a center of one's life. It certainly isn't for me. Glad to know you're happy with your life, though, despite your weaker points. I don't necessarily agree that you'd be dead if you had attended that meeting, but that's a minor point.

 

Cheers, yo. o/o/o/o/

 

Are you or were you afraid of being rejected by your family and friends for being gay? If so, why? Did/do you hate/feel disgusted with yourself for it; for being gay? Do you think it's founded, for one to be fearful of having their close ones abandon them for coming out? Why?Are you or were you afraid of being rejected by your family and friends for being gay? If so, why? Did/do you hate/feel disgusted with yourself for it; for being gay? Do you think it's founded, for one to be fearful of having their close ones abandon them for coming out? Why?

 

I think there is a difference between fear of rejection and self-loathing. For me, personally, I never had any self-loathing issue. Being gay is as natural as being straight. But do I have a fear of coming out? Yes, definitely. I remember the first time I came out. I was so scared I couldn't even say 'gay'. Lol. Just because I know it's nothing wrong that doesn't mean that the society would have the same opinion. That's what it's like in a conservative society. I know I can stand up and be different. But that's what happens in stories. In real life, it would mean daily alienation, ridicule and even aggression (I'm not exaggerating here). By the way, being gay is still illegal here. So yeah, it sucks.

 

I understand your point though. How come if someone love you can reject you for being gay? Well, in many cases, gay guys take years to accept the fact of being gay. For someone who isn't gay and who has no idea what it is like, there is a major chance that they won't understand. 

 

As for being disgusted, I do know lots of gay who have self-loathing issue. My boyfriend hates the fact of being gay. He hates not being same as others. He does not say it much, but I know. I have known others who have this issue too.

 

Sometimes, fiction do stem out from real life events.

 

Cheers

Ieshwar

 

Uh. So it is possible for someone to hate themselves for it. Goddamn, life is weird. Though, a secret--just between you and I--I can't really /say/ the word either. I don't think I've ever actually said the words "I'm gay." Not easily. I'll /admit/ that I'm attracted to guys (with the ever graceful words "I like guys"), but the word itself... it feels strange, to say it.

 

Finn, I haven't read all the posts so what I'll say may have been addressed already. I'm from Bangladesh, and the laws there allow for life imprisonment for being gay etc. No one in recent memory has been prosecuted, but would you want to risk it? That's the kind of situation I find myself in. Homosexuality is taboo and swept under the carpet, so it's hard to gauge how people feel about it and this I think leads to uncertainty and fear. I happen to have Muslim friends who know I'm bisexual and are very supportive. At the same time, there are Muslim fundamentalists in the country who take to the streets when we try to implement laws that facilitate equal rights for women (never mind gay people!). All of this creates a very complicated environment and not everyone deals with it so well. Sorry, I think I've kind of just rambled there...

 

I don't blame you. It's a lot of posts, lolololololololol. I put it off for hours, just to not have to read it, aha. I force myself, though. No ramblings, though; it all made sense. Not much I can say, though, aha. Other than that environment blows, and I hope it improves. I appreciate your expanding of my knowledge, though. ;P

[Ashi]

Oh, Finn.  Many people identify themselves by the most discriminated feature of themselves and feel most strongly about it.  Sometimes that's not the best to deal with the situation, but it happens.  Maybe you don't feel very discriminated by people because of your sexuality, so you don't feel a big deal about it.  It has to do with the time you grow up too.  Nowadays, the society is MUCH more receptive to homosexuality and don't treat it as if it's a big deal.  If I grew up in your generation I think it'll be very different.  If you grew up in my generation, you'd realize people constantly remind you that your "lifestyle" is a sin, whether they put it politely (but still sneering) or simply call you all the most offensive derogatory term for gay people possible.  Yes, we're from the same state.  It's just different generation we're talking about. 

 

No one would possibly talk about sexuality overtly.  Back when I was in high school in the 90's, if someone was suspected to be a homosexual, people would be talking about him/her behind his/her back (I constantly overheard gossips, because most people didn't realized I could understand English).  They wouldn't do personal attack toward homosexuals, at least they wouldn't name the person nor would they say the reason why they laughed at him/her was because of his/her sexual orientation (because that would be political incorrect, which of course no one wanted to be accused of that!).  I think a lot of that discrimination was collective and subconscious.  If someone pointed out they were being unfair to that person, I am sure they would feel ashamed of their action.  But still, no one, even the person who was defending the gay person, would possibly speak of that damned word, even though everyone with above average IQ knew the subject was homosexuality, they just wouldn't say that word!!!

 

How far we've gone in such a short time.  You've enjoyed the rights the gay advocates have paved for you without knowing it's actually a very different world we lived in.  Just a few years later, after I went to college, the subject of homosexuality gradually opened up and people began to talk earnestly about the fact of homosexuality instead of treating it a hush-hush topic.  Before that, people were ignorant about the subject and they continued to discriminating a group of people they didn't even understand (that's why one should not stereotype).

 

And that was the real reason why there is a lot of self-loath among gay people that are somewhat older than you.  If you were taught that gay people are evil, after a while you would believe in it.  It's all brainwash.  There is a psychological study called "blue eye, brown eye experiment."  The teacher first told the class a scientific study shows blue eyed students are smarter, and brown eyed students are stupid.  Believe or not, blue eyed students indeed got higher score on their next exam.  When the teacher admitted to the class there was a mistake, the study shows brown eyed students are in fact the smarter of the two, the next exam's average scores reversed.  That tells you the power of brainwash.  This applies to anything of this nature.  Don't ever let people tell you you're good/bad, smart/stupid, more artistic/less creative, because of your biological characteristics.  But do use some positive reinforcement to make you better.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Ashi

[Tranquility]

I'm coming into the discussion late, but I think for once I should add my two cents to a topic.

 

You have to understand that the situation is different for everyone, because it's a complex social and physical phenomenon and not two social environments are quite the same. Maybe I should start by answering your original questions and head on from there.

 

Was I afraid? It's not so much in the past tense, rather I still am. In part, it's because I know the feelings of my friends and family for the subject and in part, it's because of the place I live in. These are factors you seriously have to take into account. I am not so much worried about my family (which is not saying that I'm not worried in that regard at all), I am more worried about society, and not so much that I'll be rejected - rather, whether I'd be safe or not. When faced with an non-accepting and potentially dangerous environment for LGBTs, what you really have to do in my opinion is weigh the pros and cons of coming out. Will coming out increase the quality of my life? No, it won't. Will it give me a better chance to meet someone? No, it won't. Why? Because here you'll never see two guys holding hands on the street, and that's because the sentiment I have 95% of the rest share. Simply, the costs associated with coming out heavily outweigh the potential benefits and so there's no point in doing it. Take for example an even more extreme situation, if you were in a country where being gay can be prosecuted by law (and there are such countries unfortunately) or even countries where being gay would earn you the death penalty (still 7 such countries in the world). Hell, even Turing was chemically castrated some 60 years ago for being gay, and he did the UK a huge effing favor so to speak. So this question is really complex and you cannot expect to project the environment you're faced with in California with the environment gays are subjected to in other countries. Societal and cultural differences are an amazing thing. As a friend of mine said, "In Holland, you're a-okay if you're gay, but if you're a smoker, shame on you."

 

Though, even in the most accepting of societies, there's still the family factor to take in. Some of you have it easy in the sense that at the very least, you don't have to worry about society. Some had it ideal, and didn't have to worry about family either. But when you have to worry about both, it makes things so much more difficult.

 

As for your second question, the answer is no. I've never felt disgusted, ashamed or had trouble with accepting it. There were moments, perhaps, when I thought how life would be easier if things were different. But because I never went through this whole self-acceptance phase, I too cannot understand how some guys need time to discover themselves or to accept what they are. I don't say this in a condescending sort of way, of course - I can, to some extent, understand that it is not as easy to come to terms with one's sexuality for some. I just personally didn't have to go through these unpleasant motions. Also, I'd just like to point out that the authors you've read (in particular, I'm referring to DomLuka) are the ones that like to dabble at the whole coming out and getting to terms with yourself theme. It's a popular subject, for sure, but there are authors who don't really care about it and would rather get down to some other subjects which may or may not be less frequently explored. There was a time, especially when I read DomLuka's stories, where the whole coming out subject was very interesting for me. Now, I don't particularly care for such stories and would rather read about something else. 

 

Is the fear founded? Yes, it is - but as I said, it's different for everyone. I don't think we're truly ever fully accepted. Sometimes people may say they accept you, but in truth they don't - they just refuse to process the entirety of the information for whatever reason; in the best of cases, this reason is because they really care for you. But I've known a guy online whose family was entirely accepting, only for him to bring his boyfriend home some months later and for the situation to become extremely awkward. Saying it isn't the same as showing it and living it. A lot of parents accept the fact in the sense that they'll love you no matter what, but they find trouble with dealing with it when it's in their face and they come to realize that this is it, he/she really is different - and all the other connotations associated with being of a different sexual orientation. I do think that having the support of your friends and family is extremely important because it will facilitate dealing with the problems that may occur when faced with the rest of the world in this sense. To be honest, even if I was now placed in a far more or entirely accepting environment, I still wouldn't be one of those "in your face" gays. The difference for me would be, I wouldn't hide who I am, especially not if someone asked, but I wouldn't parade it around either because I really see no point in doing it. I get why some guys feel the need for it and I can see how they would argument my case, but should people be walking around and making sure you know they're this or that orientation? That's not to say I have a problem with guys that dress, talk or act in a way that screams they're gay - not at all! But some of them do it not so much because it's who they are, but because they have the need to distinguish themselves and make sure everyone knows they're gay. I may not agree with it entirely, but who am I to judge. On the other hand, I'm not an entirely big fan of self-loathing gays either They make such difficult relationship material. But honestly, I've yet to meet one that truly hates him or herself for what they are.

 

So, I hope all the comments you received help you better understand. You cannot apply one situation and generalize it to all others. I'm sure someone who's had an incredibly rough time going through the process would have quite different things to say on the subject. To the people who were faced with rejection and even danger every step of the way and still had the will and strength to last it out and take it to the end, I bow down to you. God knows you had more in you than I do.

[Alex Sweeney]

I think age has something to do with it. When I was 15, my parents took me to a psychiatrist to get me fixed... didn't work People would look at me as if I was something weird - the only place I felt comfortable was in the gay community but even there as has been pointed out, you have to fit in. You have to look the part. If you're something unusual, it's best not to mention it.

Not entirely to do with generation, though. Round here, the kids use gay as an insult. I'm not sure exactly what they mean by it, but they're definitely saying gay is something you wouldn't want to be!

I was uncomfortable with myself and my sexuality for many years and spent those many years pretending to be what I'm not. It's only recently that I've come out completely as myself, to myself. It helped to admit that the long-term relationship I was hanging onto like the proverbial man on a raft was actually nothing more than a passing shark.

I've not posted any stories here yet (new member, so please feel free to tell me the rookie shouldn't be so mouthy!) but I have a variety of things going on in them. Some guys are fine with their sexuality and always have been. Some are dubious about it and would rather fit into some more society-friendly category. Some are having problems with their families, who either don't accept them or haven't been told.

When I post em you can see for yourselves, anyhow. Interesting discussion - everyone's got different things going on.

[Warrior1]

Live in a country where you can be legally killed for being a queer, live with parents who'd disown you or be filled with shame at your queerness, live with friends who just can't stand gay guys...heck, when even the all-loving and merciful God who's created you look down upon you (as per your scripture or how ppl interpret them) well, one'd know where the self-hate would come from. I can write a thesis on this issue, but I'd end it here.

We are all a product of our culture and our time. We simply can not escape the influence of it and our own experience.

 

I was a gay teen during the seventies and early eighties in Mississippi of all places. Although I didn't chose it, I was out and took a lot of abuse for it.

 

It is a fiction that gay people are weak. I have seen with my own eyes young gay men and women display the courage of lions and the mental toughness of warriors.

 

There is more to strength than the physical. More to power than force.

 

If I can communicate this truth through my writings, I think that I have been successful.

 

This might be a once-in-a-lifetime-event, but I cent percent agree with you and liked what you've said. Your words resonated with me very much.

[PrivateTim]

Anyway, I realize I'm terrible at this discussion-spurring thing, so I'll summarize: Are you or were you afraid of being rejected by your family and friends for being gay? If so, why? Did/do you hate/feel disgusted with yourself for it; for being gay? Do you think it's founded, for one to be fearful of having their close ones abandon them for coming out? Why?

 

I'm asking this as in four of the last five stories I've read have had the main characters be extremely fearful of telling their family and friends that they're gay (I'm not judging it, I'm just questioning and trying to understand it). Rory in Desert Droppings was batshite afraid of coming out, as was Jake in In Due Time. Owen in The Long Way; hell, even Billy Chase in The Secret Life of Billy Chase. Only characters who weren't ridiculously fearful were the guys in A Single Promise, but they were adults (and ticked me off for other reasons, so all is good ).

 

At its heart, there is no single answer. I was never afraid of coming out to my parents for fear of rejection, but I knew they would have fears for me. I wasn't afraid of my close friends rejecting me either, but in the sports I competed in, being out was just not an option. It still isn't for athletes in these sports mostly, at least not while they compete actively. You saw the bruhaha from what a San Francisco football player said before the Super Bowl, "a gay player wouldn't be welcome in the locker room". If a gay player wouldn't be welcome in the NFL in SF, there is no city he'd be welcome in. But that players attitude is like because he thinks he doesn't know any gay players or maybe even any gay people.

 

So the reality is that even in uber liberal states there is still discrimination against gays and violence against gays. I am not sure where in CA you live, but not all of CA is an open minded paradise. Chris Colfer isn't much older than you and he had a very tough time in Clovis. If you go down to the Youth Center on Highland of The Center LA you can see kids younger than you who were tossed out of their houses for being gay and are on the street now. It is pretty easy to have self loathing when you are having to turn tricks to survive. Cruise down Santa Monica Blvd near Highland Ave any night and you can see these guys, 14-19 years old and you'll have no doubt that the fears are well founded. Talk to the kids at Covenant House, Children of the Night, the Youth Center, Casa Libre or any of the many shelters for homeless teens in LA and you'll understand why this thread runs through so many gay stories. In some cases the fiction can't even begin to match the reality because the reality was so much worse. "A Rent Boy Named...." was one of the most realistic portrayals of that world.

 

I have my pet peeves with gay stories and sometimes you can get tedious themes repeating, but I think the themes repeat because they still resonate.

 

You might enjoy the works of Cole Parker, he has a diverse set of stories and a pleasing writing style.

[Finn]

Oh no. My weekend, it is gone...

 

Read the first paragraph alone, and I'll definitely be ripping through that story when I've the time.... Thanks, but curse you.

 

As to the rest of it (and you), I appreciate your input. I'd let the topic fade because walls of text scare me, I'd lost Internet access, and I was adequately chastened earlier in the thread, but it's still interesting to hear others' experiences and thoughts. Love y'all. ;P