Jay & Miles by ColumbusGuy

[Timothy M.]

I've been thinking this over, and my opinion is that the feedback is not as negative as you feel. Though I can certainly understand why you felt down about it. However, I think you should focus on the fact that the reader liked the story in general, and that the things he criticizes are what we like. And his feedback gives us a chance to say so.

I identified three points in his feedback

1. The detailed descriptions
2. The inclusion of other characters
3. The flashback on how Jay and Miles became friends

Concerning 1) Those parts which he finds tedious because of detail, can be skimmed without losing any understanding of the story. Now one reason he might not like them, could be that he's young. For readers your age, those description take us on a trip down Memory Lane (even if I can't recognize all the US stuff, but the general feeling is there, and it's interesting to compare with how it was in Denmark). In fact those parts are what distinguishes your story from hundreds of other teen stories. However, you can use the feedback to make yourself think about whether this or the other description could be shorter and tighter, and then you can expand on them here. That would also generate more traffic in the forum. Also, I have had to force myself to move from describing to showing, so you might want to make as much of the other content dialogue and action and reserve descriptions for those ones creating the 70'ies flavor. 

If you reply, tell him that most of your readers appreciate those descriptions and suggest he simply skims past them. But that you'll think about the purpose and lenght of these parts.

 

Concerning 2) my reaction is a shrug, since he is wrong in my opinion. Expanding the story with more characters have kept it going and I like complex stories with lots of characters. But then I'm reading CAP and Leopard Spots with pleasure. The only thing is the name of the story is perhaps a bit misleading now.

 

And finally 3) I fail to understand why he did not like this. I was eager to know how Jay fell in love with Mike, and due to the way your story started (by prompts) you could not tell it sequentially. So this was a great way of doing it. Perhaps if you explain that, he'll come to appreciate the flashback.

 

And most of all, think about why he say these things: it's because he likes Jay and Miles so much and is desperate to see what happens with them. Now that's a big compliment.

[ColumbusGuy]

The things I put in my reply were essentially your points, that the detail helps younger readers to visualize the time, that the early part was constrained by length requirements and couldn't fully develop the story or characters, and that Miles and Jay exist in a world where they have friends who fill important roles in their lives. I didn't mention he could 'skim', which I should have.

 

OMG--I am tedious.   No wonder I don't have more 'likes' or reviews.   I don't know if it's the way I do things--for some reason, I 'see' my story in vignettes, not as a narrative to be transferred to words--I might have one or two lines in my head to go with the pictures, but my task has more often been to fit those images together rather than plot out a story. I've heard that those with poor eyesight are more visually aware than their normal-sighted contemporaries, and I think that may be true...I don't take anything I see for granted.

 

Finding a balance between descriptive detail and showing action is a tricky thing...I guess I need to work on that, but I might say that it can be taken too far in the other direction as well. There are a lot of good story-tellers here, (and I mean 'right here' in this group discussion) whose work is fantastic and I love intensely, but I long for a bit more detail in their stories. I'm not saying there isn't enough to carry the story, but for me, the part of CC I could visualize the best was when Jacob took Russell on the trip itself. I love the entire story, it's just that those parts I could actually see in my head, while Copenhagen could almost be any city in my head except something like New York.

There are a lot of authors here who are quite well-regarded, but I can't picture their scenes in my head, unlike yours, Tim. They might as well be passing through a world of blank canvas.

 

I wonder if I'm using so much detail because this is still early in their story? We are about a week in so far, which isn't long in real time....I think (?) I've tried to cut down on detail on places we've been already...haven't I?

[Timothy M.]

 the part of CC I could visualize the best was when Jacob took Russell on the trip itself. I love the entire story, it's just that those parts I could actually see in my head, while Copenhagen could almost be any city in my head except something like New York.

 

Well, then we can be tedious together.

 

If it's any comfort I got one feedback comment for the first chapter of CC (the old version published elsewhere) which is even more critical than yours - and included the word tedious. If you want to see it, hit the spoiler button. Oh and it was before I spiced the chapter up with some dialogue.

 

 

 

snoozefest

04/11/14 By: Anonymous

The endless listing of place names is distracting. The back story, all of it leading to the campsite, is tedious and unnecessary and does not advance the erotic tension. Would have better off with him landing in airport and picking up relationship from there. Why is one twin gorgeous and the other so different? Why not just make him an older brother who always overshadowed him?

The language is flat, uninspired, mechanical. Unless I misunderstood, these are cousins. The incest angle should be addressed. The style, broken into thick chunky paragraphs all of the same size,, is not welcoming.

I found it all flat., as if an engineer wrote it. Very little depth of emotion, too controlled. Its hinted at, but not developed. Would rather you go into character's head than details of his modes of transport. An erotic encounter in the forest with a cousin should be way hotter than this. Overall, dull and mechanical.

 

 

 

I promise I'll do some more Copenhagen descriptions in coming chapters, just for you my friend. And everyone else can go skim,

Edited August 1, 2015 by Timothy M.

[ColumbusGuy]

Wow, was that guy reading the same story? He totally missed the point of it, the difference in the twins is crucial to the working of the story, and the entire basis for the relationship which will develop not only between Russ and Jacob, but the twins themselves! And the incest angle, not the point either--in parts of the US, cousins can and do marry, and produce children...to have that standard applied to male cousins is ridiculous...it would only hold water if it were between brothers, and I'm not entirely sure it applies there either, although between generations, most definitely!

I don't know when CC occurred in your writing career, but if you want dreadful writing, go back in time and pick up one of my efforts. I sent the first three chapters and an outline off to five different publishers, and got it back every single time, and that was after I'd been through high-school writing courses before starting college. My first things were done in elementary school, and about all I can say of them is that they were nearly all dialogue which sounded wooden and contained a twist of some sort near the end. I will confess that even then, I had a tendency to put in little comic bits to add flavor.

The one my mom saved was from 6th or 7th grade, a sci-fi story about an invasion, and the aliens landed with their superior technology, and we get out first sight of the commander when he meets the humans face to face--the human reaches out to pet the alien, who starts wagging his canine tail....I plead youth and stupidity for that twist, being only 12.

I think part of the problem might be that I don't look at the picture links you post until later, so when I think of your cities, I'm probably thinking Holland with tall narrow-fronted houses and canals...or maybe German towns like Munich. Columbus is the largest city I've ever been in for any length of time, and it's too congested for me sometimes. What appeals most to me about Europe, and Denmark in particular is the sense that you don't need a car to get anywhere, often a bike will do. Ohio used to have train service not only to major cities, but local ones as well called 'interurbans'. None of that exists anymore.

Sorry, don't fret about how much detail you throw in...the part about the garden allotment I could picture because I had seen pictures of similar ones in Helsinki and in films set in Europe...just maybe a hint of the cityscape or some building might be an example of a baroque-style or modern glass and steel, don't need to go nuts...you did really well with the pedestrian zone.

[AC Benus]

Minimalist might have been me writing term papers or reports for science class, or even my first stories back in 6th grade, but when I care about something, I want to put it out in a way that others can see and experience it as I do.  It comes down to style, and each of us is different. I love your stories and characters, but I couldn't write it the way you do, and I'd be nuts to try--it's the way you craft them which makes me interested. Keep it up, my friend!

That's right, ColumbusGuy! Minimalists eternally have the same cry: "Enough is always too much!"

 

You and I are sensualists; our goal is to convey what's real from the experiential standpoint, and thereby touch people. If some cannot relate, than that is their 'sticking point,' not ours      

Edited August 1, 2015 by AC Benus

[LitLover]

 

I'm feeling a little down right now...just got my first negative feedback from Nifty. I'm writing a nicely-worded explanation of why the story is as it is, but still...it makes me want to cry.

Here's the text of the email:

 

Thanks for writing the story. Overall it's engaging. I do have a suggestion for you. To be direct, the first few chapters aside, your narrative has become increasingly and now severely tedious.

 

First, you way way over-describe and about way way too many things. For example, in this last chapter, I really don't need to know every little detail of your room, each detail in turned described in detail. In the last chapter you have the long reminiscence, running on several pages, about the beginning of the boys' relationship.

 

Second, you delve into - again in great detail - in side stories of characters and events that have little to do with the rest of your tale. Your main plot has become substantially more complicated with you introduction of the relationship between Greg and Denny to be as important - and detailed - as the title story of Miles and Jay. 

 

I can give you with assurance only my reaction. As your first chapters appeared I read them eagerly. The last couple weeks, however, I'm reluctant to open up the latest pieces which have become longer and less focussed.

 

Perhaps you need to bother a friend to edit your story?

 

It is, of course, YOUR story and you are the final judge. So, take my suggestions or not as you see fit.

 

 

I have to agree with Gary and Tim on this.  I really enjoyed the detail in the story.  It brought the entire scene to life for me.  Some people just don't like detailed background in stories.  That is going to happen.  I also hate to say this, because I know it's going to sound bad...but you are also talking about a reader on Nifty.  It's not that I think their readers are any less intelligent, but what are a lot of readers going to Nifty for?  If you are a man, I would assume "wank bank" material is high on the list right?  Jay and Miles is NOT one of those stories.  Maybe that's not fair to this reader or the Nifty site...I don't know.  The setting and how they live day to day is very important to how these boys lived their lives and made friends.  I remember how much separation there was between the "rich kids" and the "poor kids" when I was growing up in the late 70s so knowing that Mikey's parents had two cars and bought brand name soda is important in that respect.  .  

 

I am also boggled that this reader didn't like the flashback that Jay had.  For me it was a wonderful reminder of where they started and how differently Jay and Mikey viewed the same events.  I thought it fleshed out Jay's character...and the relationship..even more.

 

Finally...the objection about the secondary characters.. CG you have built a rich tapestry of the 1970's with this story.  A very important part of that tapestry are the friends and family surrounding are two main characters.  I personally loved getting to know Jay's family and Greg and Denny.  In that time period, I would assume that if you were a gay teen having friends who really knew you, that you didn't have to hide a part of yourself from, would have been a rare find...especially in a small town.  Greg and Denny (and maybe eventually Ben and Cal) would, of course, become extremely important in Jay and Miles' life because not only are they friends they also share this  "brotherhood".  In order for us to understand all of this we needed to get to know them...just as you have allowed us to do.  Could you have just informed us they were gay, had started dating and had been befriended by Jay and Mikey?  Yes, of course you could have, but their deep connection as friends could have been lost, as would their individuals journeys that brought them to this point.  These boys understand each other on a fundamental level and instead of just telling us that, you let them show us, by allowing us into their heads.

 

Does the title "Jay and Miles" still apply?  I would say so..they are, after all, the glue that holds this cast of characters together.  

 

I will end my rambling by saying this:  Not everyone is going to like this story CG, that is a fact, but those of us that do...treasure it. 

[Headstall]

I have to agree with Gary and Tim on this.  I really enjoyed the detail in the story.  It brought the entire scene to life for me.  Some people just don't like detailed background in stories.  That is going to happen.  I also hate to say this, because I know it's going to sound bad...but you are also talking about a reader on Nifty.  It's not that I think their readers are any less intelligent, but what are a lot of readers going to Nifty for?  If you are a man, I would assume "wank bank" material is high on the list right?  Jay and Miles is NOT one of those stories.  Maybe that's not fair to this reader or the Nifty site...I don't know.  The setting and how they live day to day is very important to how these boys lived their lives and made friends.  I remember how much separation there was between the "rich kids" and the "poor kids" when I was growing up in the late 70s so knowing that Mikey's parents had two cars and bought brand name soda is important in that respect.  .  

 

I am also boggled that this reader didn't like the flashback that Jay had.  For me it was a wonderful reminder of where they started and how differently Jay and Mikey viewed the same events.  I thought it fleshed out Jay's character...and the relationship..even more.

 

Finally...the objection about the secondary characters.. CG you have built a rich tapestry of the 1970's with this story.  A very important part of that tapestry are the friends and family surrounding are two main characters.  I personally loved getting to know Jay's family and Greg and Denny.  In that time period, I would assume that if you were a gay teen having friends who really knew you, that you didn't have to hide a part of yourself from, would have been a rare find...especially in a small town.  Greg and Denny (and maybe eventually Ben and Cal) would, of course, become extremely important in Jay and Miles' life because not only are they friends they also share this  "brotherhood".  In order for us to understand all of this we needed to get to know them...just as you have allowed us to do.  Could you have just informed us they were gay, had started dating and had been befriended by Jay and Mikey?  Yes, of course you could have, but their deep connection as friends could have been lost, as would their individuals journeys that brought them to this point.  These boys understand each other on a fundamental level and instead of just telling us that, you let them show us, by allowing us into their heads.

 

Does the title "Jay and Miles" still apply?  I would say so..they are, after all, the glue that holds this cast of characters together.  

 

I will end my rambling by saying this:  Not everyone is going to like this story CG, that is a fact, but those of us that do...treasure it. 

And there you have it, CG. Those that have responded so far, love you, but that is not the reason we love Jay and Miles. This story is a treasure, and we all feel that. The opinion that this story has deteriorated somehow is the exact opposite of what I see... this story has continuously improved in both quality and content as you have found your stride. As I've always said, your instincts are good, so just keep following them. Much respect... Gary

[ColumbusGuy]

I don't know what to say guys, I really don't. Thank you doesn't even come close,..Tusind tak comes closer, but it's going to take me a bit to wrap my head around what you've all said.

 

I came in to update you on the progress of 31, so I have the words to do that much, at least. I wasn't very far into it, and did something which I now have to change: I made an invalid assumption that letterman jackets were usually the same, wool body with leather sleeves in the school's secondary color...even had a pic to fit the boy's school colors of black and gold. Now I have to change that thanks to a request on FB which yielded a pic of one from the school--it's all black with gold lettering, and it's all wool. I may as well start the chapter over.

 

Anybody got a clue how school sports work? When would wrestiling tryouts be, and when would they practice? I can find the current schedule, but don't know when tryouts or practice occur at high school level. I guess that gives away the POV.

[Headstall]

I don't know what to say guys, I really don't. Thank you doesn't even come close,..Tusind tak comes closer, but it's going to take me a bit to wrap my head around what you've all said.

 

I came in to update you on the progress of 31, so I have the words to do that much, at least. I wasn't very far into it, and did something which I now have to change: I made an invalid assumption that letterman jackets were usually the same, wool body with leather sleeves in the school's secondary color...even had a pic to fit the boy's school colors of black and gold. Now I have to change that thanks to a request on FB which yielded a pic of one from the school--it's all black with gold lettering, and it's all wool. I may as well start the chapter over.

 

Anybody got a clue how school sports work? When would wrestiling tryouts be, and when would they practice? I can find the current schedule, but don't know when tryouts or practice occur at high school level. I guess that gives away the POV.

Ah cool... that means Bennie Wrestling practice was in the morning when I did it 7:45-8:30 but I imagine all schools were different... I quit after a month or so because it was too long a day with soccer practice after school, and I liked soccer better, cause I played it with my best friend. Our jackets were all wool too... Oh yeah, and our wrestling tryouts were during gym first... and then the coaches invited us to morning practice if we made the cut... hope that helps...G

[LitLover]

I don't know what to say guys, I really don't. Thank you doesn't even come close,..Tusind tak comes closer, but it's going to take me a bit to wrap my head around what you've all said.

 

I came in to update you on the progress of 31, so I have the words to do that much, at least. I wasn't very far into it, and did something which I now have to change: I made an invalid assumption that letterman jackets were usually the same, wool body with leather sleeves in the school's secondary color...even had a pic to fit the boy's school colors of black and gold. Now I have to change that thanks to a request on FB which yielded a pic of one from the school--it's all black with gold lettering, and it's all wool. I may as well start the chapter over.

 

Anybody got a clue how school sports work? When would wrestiling tryouts be, and when would they practice? I can find the current schedule, but don't know when tryouts or practice occur at high school level. I guess that gives away the POV.

 

CG - when my kids were in highschool the practices were generally after school because a lot of kids are bussed in so before school would have been difficult.  I understand that a lot of city highschools have extra-curricular practices both  before classes or after school though.  

[ColumbusGuy]

I kinda doubt we had morning practices for anything, G--in our rural area nearly everybody went by bus ,and that took around 40 minutes before and after school...so I bet practices were after, like for football. I'm assuming it was a winter sport back then as it is now. There was a two-day 'camp' listed on the current site in mid June, held at the high school, so I wondered if it was like football where camp was followed by regular practices, but that one was held in August, so I doubt it.

Wrestling just looks weird with it's short schedule--in the space of about two months, they have about five or six tournaments, then it's done. Are awards banquets near the end of the school year so that all sports are done by then? That would make sense to me. The page for my home town has been very helpful answering my questions about drive-ins, school clubs and sports, and yet I haven't mentioned that the story concerns gay kids as I don't think it would be a good idea.

[ColumbusGuy]

What do you think of this: Benny has a sister one year older as mentioned already...she's at OSU in her first year, but I was thinking he might have a younger brother, say 15, who is in the 'club' already. Would that work for you?

[Headstall]

What do you think of this: Benny has a sister one year older as mentioned already...she's at OSU in her first year, but I was thinking he might have a younger brother, say 15, who is in the 'club' already. Would that work for you?

I think so... but there's a part of me that thinks the club should fade into the background a bit... I wouldn't think that everyone would be in that club when they came of age... but, yeah, Benny's brother kind of makes sense...

[ColumbusGuy]

Finding songs done on the psaltery pictured in Chapter 30 wasn't easy--I have a coupe in my music video files i play regularly, but they mostly seems to have vanished from the Net since I got them. The instrument was used by a folk group called the Beers Family, who put out several albums--the first one had pics of theim and their instruments on the cover.

This song shows us how the psaltery sounds played with Martha Beers singing 'Duimbarton's Drums'. The other songs suck.

 

 

The other side has text notes on the group and songs.

 

Edited August 6, 2015 by ColumbusGuy

[ColumbusGuy]

I think so... but there's a part of me that thinks the club should fade into the background a bit... I wouldn't think that everyone would be in that club when they came of age... but, yeah, Benny's brother kind of makes sense...

I was sort of thinking that it would leave after Lee first goes, maybe get a mention once in a while but the major players (Greg and Benny) won't be going, and Jeff and Lee will probably have other impacts on the story beyond that...it was sort of to give Lee a buddy there that Benny's brother woulod show up. And they won't dominate the story--that is still JMs.

Does that sound better?

[Headstall]

I was sort of thinking that it would leave after Lee first goes, maybe get a mention once in a while but the major players (Greg and Benny) won't be going, and Jeff and Lee will probably have other impacts on the story beyond that...it was sort of to give Lee a buddy there that Benny's brother woulod show up. And they won't dominate the story--that is still JMs.

Does that sound better?

It sounds good... reasonable to me. Like I always say... trust your instincts... . The club served a good purpose in Greg's story, and as far as Lee and Benny's brother go, you might find they would be good characters down the road.

[ColumbusGuy]

Benny's letterman jacket.

   

 

 

Edited August 6, 2015 by ColumbusGuy

[ColumbusGuy]

Chapter 31 is underway again, 1200 words so far, all in the past couple hours, but I really need to nap a bit. Benny POV so far, but not for the whole chapter...so I'm open to suggestions on who has the next part.

[Timothy M.]

Chapter 31 is underway again, 1200 words so far, all in the past couple hours, but I really need to nap a bit. Benny POV so far, but not for the whole chapter...so I'm open to suggestions on who has the next part.

 

I'd love Linda's POV again.

[AC Benus]

I'd love Linda's POV again.

Yes, Sis Linda

[ColumbusGuy]

Dang, you guys aren't making this easy!

 

Woke up from my nap with two surprises--AC's promotion, and a great email from the editor of Damron's Travel Guides. I have an '85 copy of their book showing bars and clubs, but that was as close as I could get for my story after many searches of the 'net. In despair, I contacted them through their website and told them my problem, and the editor told me she could copy the information for the cities I needed and asked if '76 was the only year I needed! So very soon, I should have listings for Columbus, Toronto and San Francisco! YAY!!

[Timothy M.]

I'm impressed with your comprehensive research, CG. But what do you need a list of bars for ?    

[ColumbusGuy]

Sent the first part of 31 to Gary to check out...2400 words.

[ColumbusGuy]

Hey Tim...I'm pretty much into making things right, so I needed places in Toronto and Columbus where the boys could go, or hear of from people like Trebor and Dave, who are OSU freshmen. And Sam and Mikkel need a place to hang out in Toronto, and when they come to Linda's Graduation they might take in a bar or club. Those types of places can disappear pretty quickly, so I couldn't hope that my '85 guide was still accurate. Many of them were still there when I started going around 1990, but nearly all of them are gone now, so seeing there was an almost ten year gap between JM's era and my guide's, I thought I'd better play safe and find out.

Just me being super anal retentive.

The newest SATW comic was cool!

[Headstall]

Sent the first part of 31 to Gary to check out...2400 words.

I'll go over it in the morning, buddy... my eyes are too tired right now...