W.a.r. By Jeff Wilson (Jkwsquirrel)

[Israfil]

On a related note - I sympathize with Billy’s desire to not be a role model.  It’s a lot of responsibility that one doesn’t always need or want.  Yeah sure, it might be good for him but I get why he reacted the way he did.  I know I would have - and it’s partially why I was never a part of a gay community in school.  I wished other kids the best but I simply didn’t have he wherewithall to help them. Let them go to those who thrive on mentoring others - I’m not one of them and I’m not surprised Billy isn’t either.

[Freerider]

13 minutes ago, Israfil said:

 

Even though he’s a bigoted prick?  What with your professed “flower child” mentality I have a hard time seeing that haha.  

 

I knew several Joey’s growing up and I’m sure they had their issues - I just had no time or inclination to care.  The most important thing was they tried to make me miserable so...I returned the favor with gusto.

 

 

The best characters are complicated.  Billy would certainly be the bad guy of a “Joey” story - though I suspect the ingrained homophobia from Joey’s side would prevent him from becoming a sympathetic character haha.  Because aside from Billy’s snark, that’s what triggered Joey’s targeting him - he pinged his gaydar.  

 

Unless it was for a super Christian audience then Billy would be the perfect villain - the evil gay trying to corrupt Joey’s troubled friend/half brother. 

 

Yes, I have had friends like Joey.

I grew up in the bible belt of my country. 

Most people are unconfrontational and are going with the flow. They aren't really that bad. (OMG am I really defending those people?!?!)

Only the really unintelligent ones are bad. Too stupid to think, but as long as they follow the scripture to the letter and tell/force others to do the same, they gain respect. Or so they think. 

Guys like Joey have to follow the rules their parents set, no room for discussion. They bigotry is just copying his fathers behaviour (his role model)

But the good thing is that he is not preaching. And his actions speak louder than words regarding his view on the church and his fathers rules...

 

Out of the reach of his father and the church, he is a decent human being. Even more so, he is up to some mischief without letting others take the blame.

Yes, I would have wanted him to be my friend. And every time religion comes up, he would know my opinion. He would probably silently agree with me (if he is as intelligent as JKW says) or at least not mention religion in my presence in fear of me tearing his (father's) beliefs apart  

 

Guys like Joey can be a lot of fun.

[Shadow086]

I'm really starting to see Joey as a decent guy.  If I look at things from his perspective, I can totally see how Billy can come off as an arrogant, self-righteous brat that needs to be knocked down a peg or two.  And I think ending his friendship with Billy was in large part because of his father's pressure to not have his darling boy's reputation ruined by hanging out with the town's loser.

 

I think that, much like the "Reilly" mask, "asshole Joey" is just something Joey does to keep up appearances and fulfill his father's expectations, and he doesn't hate Billy as much as he lets on.  Hell, I could even see him joining the Resistance, considering he probably knows more than anyone thinks about Jack's 'indiscretions'.  It wouldn't surprise me if he gave them some dirt to get out from under his father's thumb.

[Former Member]

On 12/30/2017 at 4:02 PM, jkwsquirrel said:

Makes sense why people would risk the fires and earthquakes.

We had a small (4.4) earthquake early Thursday morning (2:39am) centered just southeast of downtown Berkeley. They’re always a shock and this one had a fairly strong initial jolt and the rolling motions went on for several seconds.

 

Because of the differing distances, it felt somewhat similar to the 2014 Napa quake. It was definitely nowhere near as strong as the ’89 Loma Prieta earthquake which was much further away. You can always tell who’s not a native Californian because they’re the ones panicking over small earthquakes like a 4!  ;-)

[Israfil]

48 minutes ago, Shadow086 said:

I'm really starting to see Joey as a decent guy.  If I look at things from his perspective, I can totally see how Billy can come off as an arrogant, self-righteous brat that needs to be knocked down a peg or two.  And I think ending his friendship with Billy was in large part because of his father's pressure to not have his darling boy's reputation ruined by hanging out with the town's loser.

 

I think that, much like the "Reilly" mask, "asshole Joey" is just something Joey does to keep up appearances and fulfill his father's expectations, and he doesn't hate Billy as much as he lets on.  Hell, I could even see him joining the Resistance, considering he probably knows more than anyone thinks about Jack's 'indiscretions'.  It wouldn't surprise me if he gave them some dirt to get out from under his father's thumb.

 

Billy really just wanted to be left alone (I’m empathizing kind of strongly with this) but for teenagers that’s kind of a draw - be it positive or negative attention unfortunately.

 

Someone wants to stay out of trouble and just get by or doesn’t think you’re the greatest thing since sliced bread?  Let’s drag him or her into the mess!  What could go wrong?

 

It’s like one time when we were outside for class, we came across a snapping turtle nest - of course, some genius wanted to poke it.  (I tripped a kid so he put his fingers a tad too close to its mouth - that effectively put an end to the game and they left the poor creature alone).  Minding one’s own business is a foreign concept in small town and sometimes you need to snap at people to get them to back off - which makes you the jerk.

[Freerider]

43 minutes ago, droughtquake said:

We had a small (4.4) earthquake early Thursday morning (2:39am) centered just southeast of downtown Berkeley. They’re always a shock and this one had a fairly strong initial jolt and the rolling motions went on for several seconds.

 

Because of the differing distances, it felt somewhat similar to the 2014 Napa quake. It was definitely nowhere near as strong as the ’89 Loma Prieta earthquake which was much further away. You can always tell who’s not a native Californian because they’re the ones panicking over small earthquakes like a 4!  ;-)

Yeah, I didn't feel a thing...

[spike382]

7 hours ago, Shadow086 said:

I'm really starting to see Joey as a decent guy.  If I look at things from his perspective, I can totally see how Billy can come off as an arrogant, self-righteous brat that needs to be knocked down a peg or two.  And I think ending his friendship with Billy was in large part because of his father's pressure to not have his darling boy's reputation ruined by hanging out with the town's loser.

 

I think that, much like the "Reilly" mask, "asshole Joey" is just something Joey does to keep up appearances and fulfill his father's expectations, and he doesn't hate Billy as much as he lets on.  Hell, I could even see him joining the Resistance, considering he probably knows more than anyone thinks about Jack's 'indiscretions'.  It wouldn't surprise me if he gave them some dirt to get out from under his father's thumb.

Joey is unrepentant sexual assaulter.   This is going to be a sticking point for me.  Sexual assault is a big deal, and I have huge issues with this character committing a sexual assault on someone and what, we're supposed to pretend that it didn't happen?  The fact that I see Brett rubbing elbows with this guy and is still friends with him despite the bullying that he had to be aware Joey was committing on Billy really bothers me.  I know he doesn't know about the sexual assault, but if he did would it matter?  Or would this be another situation where Billy would be portrayed as "overreacting" or "being stubborn"?  I guess we're just supposed to "forgive and forget" like it was mild teasing or something.  The guy is a womanizing, elitist, bottom-feeding excuse for a human being.  I'm not suddenly going to feel some huge amount of sympathy for someone just because he's had more parental pressure at home since one of his skeletons was let out the closet.  

[wenmale64]

21 minutes ago, spikey582 said:

Joey is unrepentant sexual assaulter.   This is going to be a sticking point for me.  Sexual assault is a big deal, and I have huge issues with this character committing a sexual assault on someone and what, we're supposed to pretend that it didn't happen?  The fact that I see Brett rubbing elbows with this guy and is still friends with him despite the bullying that he had to be aware Joey was committing on Billy really bothers me.  I know he doesn't know about the sexual assault, but if he did would it matter?  Or would this be another situation where Billy would be portrayed as "overreacting" or "being stubborn"?  I guess we're just supposed to "forgive and forget" like it was mild teasing or something.  The guy is a womanizing, elitist, bottom-feeding excuse for a human being.  I'm not suddenly going to feel some huge amount of sympathy for someone just because he's had more parental pressure at home since one of his skeletons was let out the closet.

 

I have to agree with Spikey on this one.  Joey really needs to get his ass kicked for his actions.  It is even worse now that he has said basicly that he was just kidding and would never......  To think that makes sexual assult OK is a whole different kind of bad.....  We will see how this subject goes in the future....

[Freerider]

The assault was not pretty.

Adolescents learn mostly by taking risks and making mistakes. All characters in this story do this. Some learn quicker than others, but ok...

 

Sometimes a mistake is severe and they need to deal with that. How do they typically do that? First by denying it ever happened. And when that does not work (anymore) they try to play it down. The typical response is "I was only joking". If nobody is fooled by these tactics, they will have to apologise for real. A man will be able to apologise, a boy is barely able to do so without outside pressure. 

 

His reaction shows that Joey knows it was very bad and that he learned from it. I doubt something like that will happen again.

 

8 hours ago, spikey582 said:

Or would this be another situation where Billy would be portrayed as "overreacting" or "being stubborn"? 

 

LOL, he IS "overreacting" and "being stubborn". No need to portray him as such...

Edited January 7, 2018 by Freerider
clarification

[Former Member]

6 hours ago, Freerider said:

Adolescents learn mostly by taking risks and making mistakes. All characters in this story do this. Some learn quicker than others, but ok...

 

Sometimes a mistake is severe and they need to deal with that. How do they typically do that? First by denying it ever happened. And when that does not work (anymore) they try to play it down. The typical response is "I was only joking". If nobody is fooled by these tactics, they will have to apologise for real. A man will be able to apologise, a boy is barely able to do so without outside pressure. 

Why does this sound exactly like all those fake apologies from athletes and celebrities?

 

The classic “I want to apologize if anyone was offended…” Of course people were offended! That’s why you’re being forced by your coaches, lawyers, or publicists to make a public apology! Don’t try to pretend no one was offended! That should be “to anyone who was offended”, not “if anyone was offended”!

[spike382]

6 hours ago, Freerider said:

The assault was not pretty.

Adolescents learn mostly by taking risks and making mistakes. All characters in this story do this. Some learn quicker than others, but ok...

 

Sometimes a mistake is severe and they need to deal with that. How do they typically do that? First by denying it ever happened. And when that does not work (anymore) they try to play it down. The typical response is "I was only joking". If nobody is fooled by these tactics, they will have to apologise for real. A man will be able to apologise, a boy is barely able to do so without outside pressure. 

 

His reaction shows that Joey knows it was very bad and that he learned from it. I doubt something like that will happen again.

 

 

LOL, he IS "overreacting" and "being stubborn". No need to portray him as such...

Joey's actions in this chapter showed me the exact opposite.  He learned nothing.  He's spent the last year blaming Billy for everything that happened, and painting himself as a victim of Billy's vindictive behavior because Billy has "always hated him" (Joey's exact words to Billy).  Then when Billy brings up the assault, he blames Billy for that too, oh he was only joking, he'd never actually try to rape Billy.  So Billy has it all wrong.  The act of pulling out his penis and shoving it in BIlly's face is textbook sexual assault.  If Billy chooses not to simply brush it off or forget about it, then no, I'm sorry, he's not overreacting.  If Brett or anybody who's supposed to suddenly become the voice of "reason" tries to tell him otherwise, I'm going to have huge issues with that.  

[Freerider]

3 hours ago, droughtquake said:

Why does this sound exactly like all those fake apologies from athletes and celebrities?

 

The classic “I want to apologize if anyone was offended…” Of course people were offended! That’s why you’re being forced by your coaches, lawyers, or publicists to make a public apology! Don’t try to pretend no one was offended! That should be “to anyone who was offended”, not “if anyone was offended”!

 

I can only conclude that those athletes and celebrities behave like children...

[Freerider]

3 hours ago, spikey582 said:

Joey's actions in this chapter showed me the exact opposite.  He learned nothing.  He's spent the last year blaming Billy for everything that happened, and painting himself as a victim of Billy's vindictive behavior because Billy has "always hated him" (Joey's exact words to Billy).  Then when Billy brings up the assault, he blames Billy for that too, oh he was only joking, he'd never actually try to rape Billy.  So Billy has it all wrong.  The act of pulling out his penis and shoving it in BIlly's face is textbook sexual assault.  If Billy chooses not to simply brush it off or forget about it, then no, I'm sorry, he's not overreacting.  If Brett or anybody who's supposed to suddenly become the voice of "reason" tries to tell him otherwise, I'm going to have huge issues with that.  

 

We have a different view on Joey's development this last year. 

You focus so much on the sexual component of the assault. I fail to see why that is important. 

 

And I think Billy needs a voice of reason quick. Now that his father is gone, it is missing in his life. Although Brett seems to be filling the void....

 

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2018 by Freerider

[spike382]

1 hour ago, Freerider said:

 

We have a different view on Joey's development this last year. 

You focus so much on the sexual component of the assault. I fail to see why that is important. 

 

And I think Billy needs a voice of reason quick. Now that his father is gone, it is missing in his life. Although Brett seems to be filling the void....

 

 

 

 

I'm not entirely sure how to respond to that.  If you fail to see why a sexual component of a sexual assault is important, it's certainly my not my job to educate you.  Yes, this is a fictional story, but it deals with real world issues, and how Jeff decides to handle it will certainly have an effect on how his readership reacts.  It's not my job to tell him how to write, and I wouldn't want to anyway.  However, in saying that, if I see something wrong with how a weighty issue like sexual assault is treated, I have every right to react to that and tell him how I feel about it.  That being said, here's a quote I just pulled from wikipedia on their article on the emotional effects of sexual assault:

 

Quote

Aside from physical traumas, rape and other sexual assault often result in long-term emotional effects, particularly in child victims. These can include: denial, learned helplessness, genophobia, anger, self-blame, anxiety, shame, nightmares, fear, depression, flashbacks, guilt, rationalization, moodswings, numbness, promiscuity, loneliness, social anxiety, difficulty trusting oneself or others, difficulty concentrating. Being the victim of sexual assault may lead to the development of posttraumatic stress disorder, addiction, major depressive disorder or other psychopathologies. Family and friends experience emotional scarring including a strong desire for revenge, a desire to "fix' the problem and/or move on, and a rationalization that "it wasn't that bad"

 

I guess you can decide for yourself why that might be important.  

Edited January 7, 2018 by spikey582

[jkwsquirrel]

I'm enjoying the conversation!  This is what I meant when I described Joey as a great villain.  He generates meaningful conversation.  I can say a few things without giving away too much. 

 

1. Look at his apology closely (please do, I love the views!) and you'll see he didn't apologize for anything.  Yes, it was one of those "Sorry you feel that way" kind of apologies that is so frustrating.  Until Joey understands just how wrong what he did to Billy was, he can never truly feel sorry about it, and find the forgiveness he needs.  And knowing Billy, even if a sincere apology was forthcoming, Billy would be justified if he told Joey to fuck off.  But the delicious plot complication is... 

 

#2. He is Brett's brother.  Brett doesn't know it yet, but they do have a connection between them that is somewhat unexplainable.  Yes, they are friends because their parents are friends, but Brett seems to have figured out that Joey is a bad influence.  And yet, there is that connection between them that has kept Brett from cutting the cord.  He even finds it funny that Joey was Billy's ride to school (which tells us that Brett still doesn't know what Joey did to Billy).  Now, why wouldn't Billy tell Brett what Joey did to him?  Have you read the news lately?  Some people never tell, not even their closest loved ones.  Sometimes the victim feels undeserved shame about what happened, and that's certainly what's going on in Billy's case.  I could see Billy blaming himself for what happened.  It's not like he's ever done that before, right?  He just thought he killed his grandmother and gave his dad a stroke.

 

And #3.  I really like Joey's character, even though he's a scumbag.  What makes him intriguing as a villain to me as a writer is his firm conviction that he is absolutely right in his actions.  Of course it's Billy's fault that his parents have treated him poorly in the last year.  It certainly wasn't Joey's fault the girl got pregnant.  And he thought he was "doing the right thing" by paying for her abortion.  And if his dick had ended up in Billy's mouth instead of just slapping him in the face?  Well, that's his problem, not Joey's.  Who does Billy, that unrepentant homosexual monster who has corrupted his best friend, think he is telling his father about what he did?  (Oh, and let's not forget what Joey called Bobby during the Billy vs. Joey classroom incident.)

 

So, I hope my insertion into the discussion doesn't kill it, but allows for more conversation.  I love that there are so many ways that you are all interpreting the story.  I'm not the kind of writer who will tell you that my opinion is the only one that matters.  I just write.  

Edited January 7, 2018 by jkwsquirrel

[Shadow086]

@jkwsquirrel On #2, I read Brett's comment on Joey being Billy's ride as hinting that he would have arranged it himself if Paula hadn't.

 

I'm not trying to say that Joey didn't do anything wrong, or that he isn't a scumbag, but he's right about Billy being a dick sometimes.  And I really wonder if he treats Billy the way he does because he's really that much of an asshole, or because it's what's expected of him.  Personally, I think it's a bit of both.

[Wesley8890]

Usually I stay out of conversations involving sexual assault and honestly get tired of hearing about it,which is hypocritical because the latest chapter of my story involves it, but I can honestly say joey is a total twatopotomas completely devoid of morals or compassion and I'm guessing if Brett finds out what he did I'm guessing joey will be getting a cast around a certain anatomical appendage. 

[wenmale64]

To address Joeys actions very simply.....  He is a textbook, holier-than-thou, self serving BULLY with a family (father) that promotes this type of action.  He really does not think, see or understand that his actions were wrong in any way.  A snake in a shit pot is still a snake and a shit pot and both need to be dealt with accordingly.  The best way to deal with these types of people is to expose them to the world for the a-holes they are. The best thing that could happen to Joey is to make public his sexual assult and HOPE he admits to it while defending himself and then pursue legal actions for the sexual assult with a hate crime adder for his blatant remarks about Billy being gay....  Lets see how Jack mounts a defebse for those charges.  Even if Jack wins the court battle, the dammage to the mcKinsey name will haunt both Jack and Joey for a very long time....  Always remember, Do Not Get Mad------Get Even-----Then Get Ahead!!!!!!!   Go Billy  .

[Israfil]

8 minutes ago, wenmale64 said:

To address Joeys actions very simply.....  He is a textbook, holier-than-thou, self serving BULLY with a family (father) that promotes this type of action.  He really does not think, see or understand that his actions were wrong in any way.  A snake in a shit pot is still a snake and a shit pot and both need to be dealt with accordingly.  The best way to deal with these types of people is to expose them to the world for the a-holes they are. The best thing that could happen to Joey is to make public his sexual assult and HOPE he admits to it while defending himself and then pursue legal actions for the sexual assult with a hate crime adder for his blatant remarks about Billy being gay....  Lets see how Jack mounts a defebse for those charges.  Even if Jack wins the court battle, the dammage to the mcKinsey name will haunt both Jack and Joey for a very long time....  Always remember, Do Not Get Mad------Get Even-----Then Get Ahead!!!!!!!   Go Billy  .

 

While I can’t see Billy doing this, I love the sentiment here haha.

[Freerider]

13 hours ago, jkwsquirrel said:

I'm enjoying the conversation!  This is what I meant when I described Joey as a great villain.  He generates meaningful conversation.  I can say a few things without giving away too much. 

 

[...]

 

So, I hope my insertion into the discussion doesn't kill it, but allows for more conversation.  I love that there are so many ways that you are all interpreting the story.  I'm not the kind of writer who will tell you that my opinion is the only one that matters.  I just write.  

 

Though it was fun eliciting the comments, we were almost going down a darker path. I sense some people are getting upset. So I'll better stop here. 

Just to check that nobody has lost their sense of humor: I apologise if anyone was offended.

 

 

 

[jkwsquirrel]

57 minutes ago, Freerider said:

 

Though it was fun eliciting the comments, we were almost going down a darker path. I sense some people are getting upset. So I'll better stop here. 

Just to check that nobody has lost their sense of humor: I apologise if anyone was offended.

 

 

 

"If" ?  lol!  You're turning heel on us, aren't you?

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but you'd have to work really hard to offend me.  I still remember the pitch forks and torches folks had for me when Brett told Dustin he was glad his parents abused him, and then when Dustin kicked Brett's ass.  Those were fun times!  All part of the life of the writer!  That said, it's never my intention to provoke people.  I write some pretty emotional stuff, and there's sometimes a pretty emotional response.  It's all good fun.  I'm just thrilled that you're digging what I'm writing.  Comments energize me.

[jkwsquirrel]

14 hours ago, Shadow086 said:

@jkwsquirrel On #2, I read Brett's comment on Joey being Billy's ride as hinting that he would have arranged it himself if Paula hadn't.

 

I'm not trying to say that Joey didn't do anything wrong, or that he isn't a scumbag, but he's right about Billy being a dick sometimes.  And I really wonder if he treats Billy the way he does because he's really that much of an asshole, or because it's what's expected of him.  Personally, I think it's a bit of both.

Sometimes the villain has a point.

[Israfil]

1 hour ago, Freerider said:

 

Though it was fun eliciting the comments, we were almost going down a darker path. I sense some people are getting upset. So I'll better stop here. 

Just to check that nobody has lost their sense of humor: I apologise if anyone was offended.

 

 

 

 

Well, the story is a little dark at times so it’s to be expected.  Though I’m honestly still curious (as are others, I suspect) on what you meant in your comment about the assault - saying the sexual aspect of sexual assault isn’t important is like saying the part where a guy got punched isn’t the important part of assault and battery.  

 

My guess is you mean that we should focus on what one means in an assault as opposed to the actions themselves, then I’m afraid you can’t quite divorce the two.  Regardless of what an assailant is thinking, their actions remain the same.

 

Or I’m way off base in which case enlighten me.  I’m not trying to continue the argument so much as understand  

Edited January 8, 2018 by Israfil
Grammar

[jkwsquirrel]

14 hours ago, Wesley8890 said:

Usually I stay out of conversations involving sexual assault and honestly get tired of hearing about it,which is hypocritical because the latest chapter of my story involves it, but I can honestly say joey is a total twatopotomas completely devoid of morals or compassion and I'm guessing if Brett finds out what he did I'm guessing joey will be getting a cast around a certain anatomical appendage. 

"twatopotomas" is going to be added to my dictionary of English insults.

[jkwsquirrel]

13 hours ago, wenmale64 said:

To address Joeys actions very simply.....  He is a textbook, holier-than-thou, self serving BULLY with a family (father) that promotes this type of action.  He really does not think, see or understand that his actions were wrong in any way.  A snake in a shit pot is still a snake and a shit pot and both need to be dealt with accordingly.  The best way to deal with these types of people is to expose them to the world for the a-holes they are. The best thing that could happen to Joey is to make public his sexual assult and HOPE he admits to it while defending himself and then pursue legal actions for the sexual assult with a hate crime adder for his blatant remarks about Billy being gay....  Lets see how Jack mounts a defebse for those charges.  Even if Jack wins the court battle, the dammage to the mcKinsey name will haunt both Jack and Joey for a very long time....  Always remember, Do Not Get Mad------Get Even-----Then Get Ahead!!!!!!!   Go Billy  .

 

13 hours ago, Israfil said:

 

While I can’t see Billy doing this, I love the sentiment here haha.

It's fun to think of all the possibilities.  Unfortunately, I think Billy's a bit too passive-aggressive to be so bold.  Although there is something about Joey that makes him occasionally go nuclear...