Gay TV, Movies, and Books

[Jeff Burton]

22 minutes ago, Krista said:

I remember a lot of A-list actors outright turning down the role to play them. Jake and Heath were the only ones to say yes. It wasn't mainstream for mainstream actors to play roles such as these. They're worried about the fallout, backlash, and if they've played gay in the past like Matt Damon, they didn't want people thinking they're taking roles that either represents them or being type cast to only play such roles. So, for the times it was a barrier breaking film. But yeah, there was a lot of No's for the roles. Which is fine. 

It was a one and done watch for me. I liked it for what it was, I thought it was pretty and gritty. I thought the acting of Anne Hathaway, Michelle Williams, and Heath Ledger were great. Jake fell flat for me... to be honest.

A lot of films are one and done for me though, so that's not a knock against the film. 

Anne Hathaway.  I really didn't need to see Princess Mia's 'physical attributes' I can't watch the Princess Diaries the same way anymore. 😂 (Except that "Keep off the Grass" scene is now much funnier for some reason.)

The movie certainly didn't hurt Jake's career if anything it helped it.  Plus the look on his face when he got bent over was seared into the minds of anyone whoever had a fantasy.  Heath Ledger's performance was great and honestly, I bet when pitched the idea of the movie he didn't hesitate because uncomfortable characters was his spirit animal.

I still watch it every couple of years because why not.  The ending is sad, and I'm all for sad anyway.

[Ron]

7 hours ago, Jason Rimbaud said:

Though I found out that dude from Sons of Anarchy starred in it.

Charlie Hunnam. He was also one of the leading characters in Guillermo del Toro’s Pacific Rim movies.

[William King]

Charlie Hunnam, original UK tv series 1999.

[Cane23]

9 hours ago, Jeff Burton said:

and I'm all for sad anyway.

As an author, you’re not allowed to say that- it’s blasphemy! 😜

[W_L]

Personally, the last "gay" show I thought was groundbreaking was the Netflix series, "Special".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_(TV_series)

It was refreshing to see disabled members of the community (myself being in the group) getting a spotlight, the first season was a great showcase of stories a lot of writers don't or can't understand without living the life of a disabled gay person. It's not a perspective that you can use your imagination to live in fantasies, so there's a genuine feel.

Too bad, the second season (after limited success with its first) fell off a bit. I still respect the effort in season 1, which did something no one had done before.

[William King]

This looks like a good film. Anyone seen it? Want to comment?

[Zombie]

11 hours ago, William King said:

This looks like a good film. Anyone seen it? Want to comment?

this is a British /Finnish indie co-production (it had US distribution) and is on my To Watch list (bought the BR) and has an interesting premise: can a writer write authentically about a lived experience if he (or she) hasn’t lived that experience?

lead actor Ruaridh Mollica plays the writer and is bisexual (oh the irony had he been straight! )

Will report back when I’ve watched it 

Edit to add: this premise ties in with the Netflix series, "Special", in W_L’s earlier post

 

Edited January 16 by Zombie

[ChromedOutCortex]

This was so damn cute, I had to post it... From Reddit. Love how he stands on his tippy-toes to give him a kiss. ☺️

The post references these shows:

• School Trip: Joined a Group I'm Not Close To (special episode 1)
• The Heart Killers
• Share House
• That Summer
• Black and White Is Real
• Naughty Babe
• Our House Party
• My Golden Blood
• To My Shore (BTS)

[William King]

It is cute, but kind of raises the whole issue of BL in Japan, Korea, and what it's like to be a gay boy for real in those countries today.

[W_L]

18 hours ago, William King said:

It is cute, but kind of raises the whole issue of BL in Japan, Korea, and what it's like to be a gay boy for real in those countries today.

Outside of Taiwan, Nepal, and Thailand, there's no gay marriage in South Korea or Japan.

I have gotten more into Taiwanese Danmei, the Chinese version of BL, but it's pretty cultural-centric stories when they don't do high school stories. The good thing with this versus traditional BL is that the Gong/shou pairing no longer feel like Seme/uke from Japanese BL or Top/Bottoms from mm western romances. The authors develop characters a bit more and give their characters independent drives, which I highly appreciate. 

[William King]

Un jeune homme de bonne famille.

A young man from a good family.

This is the history of a gay man born in 1945, a child in the 50s, who became a porn actor in the 60s. It's an autobiography, real and interesting. Broadcast on ARTE the European public service channel, it is in French or German, but maybe you can use auto translated captions. I doubt you would get such an uncensored, honest, portrait of one gay man's life in the US. You may need to verify you are an adult to watch it: https://youtu.be/0v6uEP7SdG8?si=5Karr38IKvOtvdYg

Note: I wouldn't normally give a link to a foreign language documentary, but this is quite exceptional.

 

[Zombie]

SEBASTIAN 2024

Although this film is written and directed by a gay director (Mikko Mäkelä) and the lead role is gay (Ruaridh Mollica, also gay in real life) and presents gay life and gay issues and writing throughout, it isn’t a ‘gay film’. It’s a film about a young man’s self-discovery and, along the way, his sex life (some very explicit gay sex scenes), loneliness, family, his need for love and affection, insecurity, vulnerability, rejection, deceit, exploitation, friendship, and ‘achievement’.

The film’s central premise is ‘lived-experience’ and the titular role is sweet natured 25yo magazine journalist Max’s alter ego as sex worker ‘Sebastian’, listed on ‘Dream Boys’ to gather material about his client experiences for Max’s first novel. This premise is neatly echoed in an early scene at the magazine office where one IMDB reviewer comments:

“In discussing an assignment for a Bret Easton Ellis report, a dispute surfaces (when)… the boss says, "I do think it best that queer writers cover queer authors" and that it is not a matter of optics but sensibility and sensitivity. This exchange illustrates an often-heard idea when it comes to art. Does it change if artists experienced, lived, what they write about? Does sensitivity and sensibility presuppose experience that translates, and is legible, as artistic quality?”

Ruaridh carries the whole film. His performance is outstanding (all the parts are very well played) and the camera is on him almost all the time. His beautiful face is so expressive you know exactly what thoughts are going thru his mind when he’s not speaking in his soft spoken Scottish lilt. You cannot fail to care for him and where his double life is taking him.

Some reviews disliked the ending, but I found it entirely consistent with the film’s narrative and very satisfying.

I don’t know what streaming services are like in terms of censorship but you really do want to see the full unedited version (110mins). I picked up the blu ray for about £8 and I know I’ll want to watch it again so, for me, that’s good value.

Strongly recommended.

https://www.indiependent.co.uk/sebastian-review-a-brilliant-performance-and-a-fresh-take-on-the-sex-worker-genre/

[ReaderPaul]

I saw the first hour of Brokeback Mountain and walked out of the venue where it was playing.  The first hour was somewhere between dull and boring.  So I found the discussion among @Krista, @Jason Rimbaud, @Jeff Burton, @wildone, @ChromedOutCortex, and anyone else about Brokeback interesting.  A bisexual friend of mine saw a version different than in theaters, and said that version was better than the theatrical version.

It did cause a lot of discussions to take place, however. 

[Mattyboy]

@ReaderPaul I'm feeling both "holy cow"  and I'm not surprised. 

Brokeback Mountain is such a milestone,  but now it's a period piece from another generation. I just l looked it up and Annie Proulx published the short story before Mathew Shepard's death.  I would have guessed it was the other way around.  Both incidents were very of-that-time, though.  The movie came out in 2005 as same-sex marriage reforms were becoming a hot political topic, although it'd be another decade before the Obergefell decision in the US. 

You can see this generational change around gay fiction, even a decade ago, but especially before 2005, the basic notion was that gay romances had to involve staying in the closet and somehow managing, or at least some sort of don't ask, don't tell deal.

We were all fish swimming in water; I don't think it occurred to anyone in '97 or '05 to judge Annie Proulx or Ang Lee for Jack and Ennis not living their truth and being true to themselves.  Brokeback was a big part of an immense cultural earthquake,  but I feel the GA comments-section gang would judge it harshly now, and maybe rightly so.      

[Jason Rimbaud]

1 hour ago, Mattyboy said:

'97 or '05 to judge Annie Proulx or Ang Lee for Jack and Ennis not living their truth and being true to themselves. 

I judged Ang Lee hard. He was the wrong director for the movie. If he would have spent a quarter of the time spent on breathtaking vista's overlaid with a horrible soundtrack, and furtive glances between our two leads, on character development, it might have been a good movie. Might. 

There was a reason the original tale was a short story, I believe less than 10K words. Or a single chapter for @Krista Padding it out for a feature film, 214 minutes, was above Ang Lee's talent lane. 

Jake and Heath had great chemistry, all the actors were top notch. The ending, though depressing, was expertly acted. Heath remaining silent as he cried into Jake's smelly shirt, was amazing. 

The issue was pacing, lack of narrative development, and boring with incredibly long stretches of silences. Once they established that Jake and the Joker were in love, everything else was looking, watching, remembering. 

You summed up the political climate perfectly in your comment. And those of us that remember Matthew Sheppard will forever be scarred by the violence. And I think the film was important in the culture of moving gay rights to gay marriage. 

That doesn't excuse the producers for making a bad film. I don't judge it based on what it did for gay rights. I judge it both then, and now, on whether or not the movie was entertaining. And it failed on every level. The only thing it got right, Jake is a bottom, even though he's straight, he's a submissive bottom in the bedroom. I can't prove it, I just know its true. 

For all of you that Brokeback meant something either at the time or since, that's okay. You have valid points, and no one is trashing the film's impact. It was the first gay movie I saw in a theater, my second gay movie ever, the first being Beautiful Thing. 

Which I think Beautiful Thing is head and shoulders over Brokeback. 

Brokeback took America by storm. It got people talking about acceptance, and thrust those of us that lived in the shadows into the light. 

Too bad it took nearly thirty years for the Hockey show to make the same kind of impact. You can't go anywhere without hearing, reading, seeing, these two ugly ducklings in their hockey gear. It's taken over the culture again, and that is a good thing. 

In brokeback, we barely got to see them kiss, in the hockey show, we see nearly everything. In the middle, we got Will & Grace, where I'm not sure if we even see two men kiss. *shrugs* 

 

 

[Krista]

3 hours ago, Jason Rimbaud said:

There was a reason the original tale was a short story, I believe less than 10K words. Or a single chapter for @Krista Padding it out for a feature film, 214 minutes, was above Ang Lee's talent lane. 

Thank you for putting it nicely that I am a bit of rambler when I write.  Love you for it. I may or may not be currently working on a 10K+ word count chapter for Ellis at the moment to further prove your point.

--

We also have to realize how Hollywood treats stories like these. If you look across film and time, Brokeback Mountain was a victim of the rule. It doesn't make it stand out as something bad, because it was still groundbreaking in the fact that it was so available to a massive audience. The star power in the film putting more eyes on it as well. It opened doors and got more "Yes" from studios than, "No," for later films to be be made. And who stars in them. It was also coming out in a bit of a renaissance for films in America. It pre-dated the Remake bullshit we're in now, but it was also along the timeframe where we leaned more heavily on telling nuanced stories with elements of art and reality. Memoirs of a Geisha comes to mind as well, made within the same year. That film also hasn't aged well.

Before that, the message were AIDs and Hate Crimes in general. Either the story had to be where the gay characters could not have a happy ending. Or happily ever afters were rare and they were never true romantic elements shown, they were just gay and you were to believe them because the film told you to. Romantic and happy was overshadowed by social, health, and religious overtones that dominated the actual 'humans' and the negative human elements were often portrayed over the positives. Even if those characters were gay. You saw more sex workers, or sexually promiscuous than you did gay people who date, or only have sex with one person. Hollywood treated gayness somewhat like a fetish. 

Like others have said homosexuality was mostly meant for the shadows. Whispered about, not shown. All romantic elements behind closed doors, in the dark with poor lighting. It wasn't loud, it wasn't colorful, and it wasn't happy. Fear, anger, hate, mental illness, sexual elements, were the 'normal' compared to the characters just being human. It was as if they are GAY and then human. The distinction wasn't equally weighted. To the point where it felt to be gay is to be in fear, deviants in society, you can't be religious, and you will most likely die. You will die from AIDs, suicide, or brutally attacked/murdered. Usually alone and shunned by society, your family, and with little to nothing.

Like I said though, those stories brought to light and made people aware. So, don't take this as me belittling the past and the importance of those films. Not my intention.

Hollywood has always been: That gay people can only be human in a certain world, a certain way, with a certain outcome. And it all became formulaic. -- They haven't learned their lesson with this by the way. It is just the formula has changed. 

And Brokeback Mountain kind of leaned into that idea. They had to be secretive. They had to be closed off with one another in public. They had to be quiet/seen and not heard. They had to live in an unaccepting world, they had to ruin their marriages to women, and they had to suffer a tragedy. So, the film felt older than it was, even if the setting, story, and plot were strongly written for the setting and time it is based. And all that formulaic sameness is what made it boring.

The difference now with 'Heated Rivalry,' and "Red White and Royal Blue,' alongside other more modern films and television - is that filmmakers and showrunners are starting to be more seamless with sexuality. It isn't something that's stigmatized, tropes, or flat-lined messaging with no other life support to carry the film or show forward. We are able to see that Gay and Human are of equal standing and to be honest, in doing so has made it more inclusive to a wider audience.

But let's also admit to ourselves that half the reason, 'Heated Rivalry' blew up is because all four dudes the show is focused on all have nice asses too. The plot isn't the most groundbreaking thing on earth. The Main storyline is engaging, but it has been told, it doesn't break a special sort of mold. 

But the other thing that makes the show stand out, and what I feel is more important than the round butts and hockey are the two dudes are written as being very average in being human. So they're relatable. I think modern audiences are starved for that notion in entertainment. They're not these people that can only be understood by two percent of the population.

They are people that you can meet walking alongside you on a crowded sidewalk. 

That and all Hollywood can seem to predictably produce are 3rd, 4th, 5th level remakes of the same damn garbage and shove it down our throats. Or lifeless live remakes of nostalgic animated films.

I do not like Hollywood, I've made that clear numerous times. I pay a lot more attention to independent and/or foreign, or mostly foreign 'and' independent studios. They make better films across the board. 

Edited February 4 by Krista

[Jason Rimbaud]

1 hour ago, Krista said:

Thank you for putting it nicely that I am a bit of rambler when I write.

So if I was trolling you still, I would reply to this by saying something...

Hello, have you seen the length of this comment? 

But since I'm not trolling you at the moment, what a nice, thoughtful comment. Good job!

[Krista]

8 minutes ago, Jason Rimbaud said:

So if I was trolling you still, I would reply to this by saying something...

Hello, have you seen the length of this comment? 

But since I'm not trolling you at the moment, what a nice, thoughtful comment. Good job!

I feel like you double bluffed me and are trolling me. Or maybe the troll is in my response, admitting that I feel trolled.

And you have won.

And I hate when I don't win. 

[Jason Rimbaud]

4 minutes ago, Krista said:

I feel like you double bluffed me and are trolling me. Or maybe the troll is in my response, admitting that I feel trolled.

And you have won.

And I hate when I don't win. 

Sorry FO, I have stopped trolling you the moment your story ended. Think back, all my comments regarding you have been glowing since then. You are the best and your comment stated your opinion wonderfully. Not trolling, promise and pinky swear 

[ReaderPaul]

Superb analyses, @Krista and @Jason Rimbaud.  I agree, @Mattyboy, the film was groundbreaking.  But it WAS padded with much unnecessary stuff.  The acting was good, but the film felt bloated because of the extra stuff in it.

I wish I could have seen the version my friend saw, which he said was grittier than the version released to theaters.  But that is life.

[William King]

12 hours ago, Krista said:

the other thing that makes the show stand out, and what I feel is more important than the round butts and hockey are the two dudes are written as being very average in being human. So they're relatable. I think modern audiences are starved for that notion in entertainment. They're not these people that can only be understood by two percent of the population.

They are people that you can meet walking alongside you on a crowded sidewalk. 

Great summation of Brokeback Mountain, which although it achieved everything you highlighted was still for me a bit of a damp squib.

I wonder what you would make of Dating Amber, released in 2020, it relates the story of a gay boy (coming to terms, coming of age) and a gay girl. Set in Ireland in 1995, Catholic and very conservative, most especially in a rural environment. The struggle it highlights is touched with comedy, but is all the more real for its comic relief.

 

[Krista]

3 hours ago, William King said:

Great summation of Brokeback Mountain, which although it achieved everything you highlighted was still for me a bit of a damp squib.

I wonder what you would make of Dating Amber, released in 2020, it relates the story of a gay boy (coming to terms, coming of age) and a gay girl. Set in Ireland in 1995, Catholic and very conservative, most especially in a rural environment. The struggle it highlights is touched with comedy, but is all the more real for its comic relief.

 

It would fall under the category that I have for films that aren't deep, but are decently done. I only watched in one time. There are parts of it that I loved, but mostly I liked both characters. I saw it more as a friend comedy/drama. Some attempts at comedy, mostly a drama with lighter elements. Then a bit of a punching latter half that made the movie better for me. I may like this film more if I watched it more than once, things are a bit foggy for me, but I think overall I remember enjoying the film.

The actor was also in, "Handsome Devil," which I enjoyed a lot more, but I've also watched it more than once. 

[Mattyboy]

17 hours ago, Krista said:

If you look across film and time, Brokeback Mountain was a victim of the rule.  [..]

They had to live in an unaccepting world, they had to ruin their marriages to women, and they had to suffer a tragedy. So, the film felt older than it was, even if the setting, story, and plot were strongly written for the setting and time it is based. And all that formulaic sameness is what made it boring.

This reminds me of the HEA thread from a while back.  Writers sometimes get told (and agree) that happy endings are soft, dreamy, juvenile things for soft, dreamy, juvenile writers and that serious literature uses darker tools with sharp cutting edges. 

But it's not long ago that a gay story with a HEA was a very radical proposition, and very rare. It's an excellent development that this has changed. 

17 hours ago, Krista said:

The difference now with 'Heated Rivalry,' and "Red White and Royal Blue,' alongside other more modern films and television - is that filmmakers and showrunners are starting to be more seamless with sexuality. It isn't something that's stigmatized, tropes, or flat-lined messaging with no other life support to carry the film or show forward. We are able to see that Gay and Human are of equal standing and to be honest, in doing so has made it more inclusive to a wider audience.

But let's also admit to ourselves that half the reason, 'Heated Rivalry' blew up is because all four dudes the show is focused on all have nice asses too. The plot isn't the most groundbreaking thing on earth. The Main storyline is engaging, but it has been told, it doesn't break a special sort of mold. 

But the other thing that makes the show stand out, and what I feel is more important than the round butts and hockey are the two dudes are written as being very average in being human. So they're relatable. I think modern audiences are starved for that notion in entertainment. 

Yeah the asses are good,  but it's not that hard to find that on the internet these days (although self-permission to look may be another thing entirely).  I think you're absolutely right that that audiences are starved for stories in which relatable people have a good relationship. 

I watch the TV series Family Law a bit (on Global in Canada, CW in the US);  the episodes explore the expanding and fluid shape of "family" in the modern world. There are a bunch of queer characters, and they learn a new lesson about family every week. But nobody in the central cast is in a good and stable relationship.  Sure,  conflict drives plot lines, and it's sort of relatable that no one has it figured out, but it's also a current example of that old rule that healthy and happy isn't attainable.

Heated Rivalry is fresh and radical TV because the characters have desire, and then sex, and nobody calls in the Special Victims Unit or winds up in a courtroom. 

There's a bit on Annie Proulx's Wikipedia page where she says she feels burdened by having authored Brokeback Mountain, because people won't stop sending her fanfic in which Jack and Ennis have more and better sex and it leads to a happy ending.

I get how that would be annoying, and some of the fanfics probably do take a very porny turn, but it's yet another sign of that desire in audiences for a different answer to the question of whether good relationships are possible.

Edited February 4 by Mattyboy

[Krista]

5 hours ago, Mattyboy said:

This reminds me of the HEA thread from a while back.  Writers sometimes get told (and agree) that happy endings are soft, dreamy, juvenile things for soft, dreamy, juvenile writers and that serious literature uses darker tools with sharp cutting edges. 

But it's not long ago that a gay story with a HEA was a very radical proposition, and very rare. It's an excellent development that this has changed. 

Yeah the asses are good,  but it's not that hard to find that on the internet these days (although self-permission to look may be another thing entirely).  I think you're absolutely right that that audiences are starved for stories in which relatable people have a good relationship. 

I watch the TV series Family Law a bit (on Global in Canada, CW in the US);  the episodes explore the expanding and fluid shape of "family" in the modern world. There are a bunch of queer characters, and they learn a new lesson about family every week. But nobody in the central cast is in a good and stable relationship.  Sure,  conflict drives plot lines, and it's sort of relatable that no one has it figured out, but it's also a current example of that old rule that healthy and happy isn't attainable.

Heated Rivalry is fresh and radical TV because the characters have desire, and then sex, and nobody calls in the Special Victims Unit or winds up in a courtroom. 

There's a bit on Annie Proulx's Wikipedia page where she says she feels burdened by having authored Brokeback Mountain, because people won't stop sending her fanfic in which Jack and Ennis have more and better sex and it leads to a happy ending.

I get how that would be annoying, and some of the fanfics probably do take a very porny turn, but it's yet another sign of that desire in audiences for a different answer to the question of whether good relationships are possible.

Yeah, I have no problem with a story ending in tragedy or non-HEA. At one time though it was incredibly rare that it happened for gay characters in film. I kind of prefer things not being so pretty and wrapped. More open-ended, I would say. But yes, at least for me, Brokeback Mountain, felt very true to form for most gay films at the time. Which is why it doesn't age well.

I mean, even my Coming of Age stories aren't aging all that well anymore. The 'closet' isn't as interesting to readers a lot younger than me. So coming out/coming of age seems dated to some. I sense frustrations surrounding characters that do not cope with their sexuality well. 

Culturally it signals something good. Younger people are finding courage and acceptance easier and far more rewarding. Being driven by fear, closets, and such isn't as prominent and relatable as it once was. As a writer of such stories, I did feel slightly burdened by those frustrations and thinking that maybe I need to leave the genre if I cannot adapt to a more current telling of them. Which I feel is just awkward first love sort of stories, which mine are, mostly. But, maybe not growing up feeling the pressure of keeping things not so inward. Although I find those characters interesting, readers may no longer.

Adapting and not becoming formulaic in your creativity sounds easily done. But comfort zones are hard to break. 

Hollywood lives in comfort zones. Innovation is rewarded rarely and rarely is it commercially successful enough for there to be any lasting impact. That is why Studios are on their 20th Marvel film. I think we're up to what, 7 'Toy Story' films, 6 Shreks, 3 Frozens after 2026. 

Find the formula that works until it doesn't. Creativity be damned.  

[Zombie]

personally I’m bored with the coming-out trope, the well-worn cliche of ‘gay films’ - BM seemed dated at the time and I’d no wish to watch it then or now. Sure, there’s still a need in some cultures, perhaps giving wider audience insight into those cultures, but in Western cultures they surely had their day a while back?

what’s great is seeing films now that feature gay themes and characters and where being gay is relevant to the story, but not the focus