Questions About Working with an Editor

[Former Member]

Just some questions to throw out there.    I know most of the seasoned authors here utilize the services of an editor.  I haven't writeen with an editor in a long time before I started Her Name Was Umbrella and now I have found myself with both a beta and an editor.  It's kind of exciting and I've missed having someone seriously scrutinize my work and give me serious feedback.  Don't get me wrong, I love blatant praise as much as the next person in the reviews, but it's also really nice to know that someone cares about your work enough to say "No, this sentence does not make ANY sense and you need to change it so that it has the desired effect."  Maybe not in so harsh of words.

 

But now I'm working with an editor and I'm finding that I have a lot of questions about etiquette and such.  It's so much different from working with an editor in person (where my experience with an editor lies).  How many runs are typically appropriate?  What's the typical expected turnover?  Is it better to just have technical editing done or more intense hack and slash?

 

Currently, I'm on two runs with about 24 hours of turnover.  My editor and I are in different timezones so it ends up working out at about 24 hours.  But for two runs of rather intense scrutiny (I wouldn't call it hack and slash, but it seems like it's pretty intense, I'll have to ask him about the workload), is 24 hours too short?  It IS about a week between updates, but there are so many things that I'm just not sure about.

 

Any tips or advice you can give would be greatly appreciated!

[stephanie l danielson]

Myiege:

 

I've dealt with editors of all sorts, from praising to the harsh. In my opinion, two run-throughs are usually done. The first should be the longest, picking up items that stand out for content, flow, etc. After those are done (usually a week to two weeks), then the second round happens. This should be shorter than the first, I'd give it a week, depending on workload.

 

A quick tip: be sure to be as grammatically sound as you can before it is handed to the editor. It saves time and grief for both parties.

 

Hope this helps!

[Cia]

If I'm being nice I write something, let it sit, re-read it and change phrasing and try to catch mistakes. Then I do a spellcheck. Then I send it to my beta/editor. Or two. Or three. Then I take their feedback. Usually I get a beta and edit from them of 'this doesn't make sense' or 'this is awkward' or 'repetitious' or 'wrong, wrong, wrong...' LOL and I'm great with that. Tear it up, because I appreciate that. Then I go over all the comments, make the changes, let it sit, do a reverse edit a paragraph at a time from the end of the story. Sometimes I send it back to them for another read through, or I'll go through comments with them over Skype.

 

Now, if I'm doing a full story I try to give a week for them to get it back to me. If I'm doing a chapter, 24-48 hours is usually okay with my betas. It all depends on how much time they have and what is going on with their lives. They do it for free, so I try not to be too demanding. If I need it right off, I do it myself. That's not ideal, but I'll do it with my free fiction posting.

 

When I published Pricolici through RFP, I went through 2 different editors and we back and forth with my novella (35k) 3 times each. The latest free read story I wrote for an event on another site, another 35k novella, went to 3 different beta/editors for feedback and editing. I also did a 2nd full edit myself, reverse editing after it went through all 3 people. I gave them the story in stages, but I still tried to give them 4-5 days to look it over. I'd love to give that much attention to everything I write, but it's not quite possible.

 

Honestly, no one can say 'this is how long it should take' to do a beta or edit. It depends on how clean the story is, how much work the person is doing for you (content or line editing, or both) and how long the story is too. All you can do is find what works for you and your team, and go with it.

[Sasha Distan]

honesty what is the difference between  a beta reader and an editor? i don't know...

[Former Member]

Thank you both for your input!  And thank you sasha for asking that question before I did.  XD <3<3

[stephanie l danielson]

honesty what is the difference between  a beta reader and an editor? i don't know...

A beta reader is one who looks it over for general flow, readability, and looks for loopholes. An editor is more detailed and does the grammar, style, and does the more in-depth analysis of the entire story. Betas are invaluable if you have a good one. So are editors.

[Cia]

Exactly. For a practical example a beta might not be able to tell you what a coordinating conjunction is versus a subordinate conjunction, or how both should appear in the sentence or be punctuated, but they could tell you that you didn't show your main character taking off his shoes and socks before sex (yes, I've seen authors forget this) or point out you repeat Saturday twice in your timeline. Many editors can be a beta ... but not all betas can edit.

[Former Member]

Slightly off topic, but the only reason I know what those two are are from learning German. XDD

[Sasha Distan]

A beta reader is one who looks it over for general flow, readability, and looks for loopholes. An editor is more detailed and does the grammar, style, and does the more in-depth analysis of the entire story. Betas are invaluable if you have a good one. So are editors.

 

then i love my Beta's even more because they do spelling and grammar too

 

Exactly. For a practical example a beta might not be able to tell you what a coordinating conjunction is versus a subordinate conjunction, or how both should appear in the sentence or be punctuated, but they could tell you that you didn't show your main character taking off his shoes and socks before sex (yes, I've seen authors forget this) or point out you repeat Saturday twice in your timeline. Many editors can be a beta ... but not all betas can edit.

 

i have no idea what most of these things are.....

[Thorn Wilde]

then i love my Beta's even more because they do spelling and grammar too

 

I did all those, too, when I was a beta. We didn't operate with the word editor, but I guess that's what I was...

[K.C.]

A Beta who does more for you than the other Betas??  Is that like a Beta with benefits?

Edited June 20, 2013 by KC Grim

[rustle]

A Beta who does more for you than the other Betas??  Is that like a Beta with benefits?

 

You wish.

[stephanie l danielson]

Beta plus?

[Former Member]

Or how about an alpha?

[layla]

Beta Max ?

[LJH]

Beta = developmental editor. Helps with developing the story.

 

Everything said, i agree with. Except that i am one of those harsh do as i say editors. I do line by line and proofreading. I make the change and underline it and leave a comment. If you dont go with my logic, a logic based on the rules of literature, then I am not for you. Get another editor. I am not there to write your story. And i won't. Dont put a four page description of your school or hospital or house and your main character and twenty other characters in chapter one. I will cut. Dont change tenses midway through a sentence. Cut cut. Dont start with a description of main character, snip. Hence, it is easy for me to cut 2000 words at the beginning of a shabby start. start close to the main action. The rest will follow. Etc.

 

Once i have edited, i do a restructure. Its your task to see if that restructure works for you or not. Hence, my edit takes two to three days. Editing is not a game. It is a time consuming, serious part of writing. Forgive the errors, i am typing this from my phone.

[Former Member]

Beta = developmental editor. Helps with developing the story.

 

Everything said, i agree with. Except that i am one of those harsh do as i say editors. I do line by line and proofreading. I make the change and underline it and leave a comment. If you dont go with my logic, a logic based on the rules of literature, then I am not for you. Get another editor. I am not there to write your story. And i won't. Dont put a four page description of your school or hospital or house and your main character and twenty other characters in chapter one. I will cut. Dont change tenses midway through a sentence. Cut cut. Dont start with a description of main character, snip. Hence, it is easy for me to cut 2000 words at the beginning of a shabby start. start close to the main action. The rest will follow. Etc.

 

Once i have edited, i do a restructure. Its your task to see if that restructure works for you or not. Hence, my edit takes two to three days. Editing is not a game. It is a time consuming, serious part of writing. Forgive the errors, i am typing this from my phone.

 

Forgive the errors.  I love it.  The editor saying to forgive the errors.  You're perfect! <3<3<3

 

Giggling aside, THIS is how I was taught to edit.  I was taught by wizened old crone who told me that if I had 4000 words in a story, I should cut to 1000.  Or find someone that WOULD cut it to 1000.  She's also the one that taught me to murder my darlings.  She's by far been the most influential person on my writing and I really wish we had stayed in touch.  That being said, I hate being mean.  Especially to someone I don't know and can't see face to face.

 

How do you tell someone that they shouldn't intro their character as "I am blah and I do this" without killing their self-esteem?  The LAST thing I want to do is seriously discourage someone from writing, especially when it's been such an outlet to me, personally.

[LJH]

Tell the writer to describe the main character through the eyes of another character. Say things like: try to not start with a description of your main character looking at himself in a mirror. Ease in the description. Let it flow. Let it flow. Let it flow. In other words Show, don't tell. Draw up a list of words that publishers hate. I have that list if you want it i could send it to you in a PM. Hugs

[Former Member]

Yes please!

[Sasha Distan]

editors seem like mean people *hides under a rock*

[Cia]

'I don't want to be mean' is a fundamental miscommunication between authors' and editors' expectations, imo.  If an author is writing like an amateur, or plain doing it wrong, then they need to be told. Otherwise, how will they learn? It's not mean when someone is trying to help you improve. I'd much rather an editor nailed me left and right than worry about bruising my precious ego. I just got a story back from some editors I don't know for an event, and it has anywhere from1-8 comments per page. This is after it went through all my usual processes! I will always appreciate that type of intense scrutiny because then I will be doing it right.

 

I expect every author I help to have the same attitude. They don't have to agree with me, but they better be able to repute my suggestions if they are based on writing conventions. I rarely have trouble with authors because I don't waste my time on anyone not willing to be open. I'm a writer who's willing to learn; I want to be associated with other authors willing to learn too. The people who just want someone to make sure they don't misspell anything and ignore all the rest of their writing mistakes will find editors who are willing to be associated with that level of writing.

 

It just won't be me.

[Sasha Distan]

The people who just want someone to make sure they don't misspell anything and ignore all the rest of their writing mistakes will find editors who are willing to be associated with that level of writing.

 

It just won't be me.

 

i know, and that's why you rock. my editors and beta's aren't mean, but just the way you and everyone else described them earlier made them sound so ruthless! ruthless can be a good thing, i know that.

[Cia]

Ruthless, nitpicky, attentive to detail ... gigantic pain in the ass. I've heard them all, lol!   At least it means I'm making an impression.

[Former Member]

i know, and that's why you rock. my editors and beta's aren't mean, but just the way you and everyone else described them earlier made them sound so ruthless! ruthless can be a good thing, i know that.

 

It comes down to being kind of like a coach.  Ya push hard because you want them to do better, you want to see these things develop.  I just have to suck it up and trust that the authors I work with will be up to the challenge.

[Thorn Wilde]

Back when I was a beta, i always tried to adjust my style of betaing to the person I was betaing for. If that person just wanted someone to proofread their stuff, that's what I did. If they wanted comprehensive critique, that's what I gave them. If they didn't want to use some of my suggestions, that was okay, but if they didn't pay any mind to any of what I had to say I didn't see the point in continuing.

 

I once betaed for some kid who was utterly hopeless. I mean, she couldn't spell, couldn't do proper punctuation, didn't know how to advance a plot, couldn't write believable dialogue, atrocious characterisation. I tried to be as gentle as I could, but there's limits to how nice one can be when there's so much WRONG with a piece of writing. In the end, she gave up on her story completely. I hope she picked writing up again later, when she knew more and had a better idea of what she was doing. The ideas were there, but she didn't know how to convey them. I like to believe I helped her, but sometimes I wonder if, had I been a little NICER she might not have been confident enough to keep at it and improve... Tough love obviously didn't do it.

 

As a writer, I think I'm probably both easy and hard to work with for an editor or beta. On the one hand, I'm pretty diligent at self-editing. My work isn't likely to be seen by anyone at all before I've gone over it several times with a fine-toothed comb, sorting out everything I can manage on my own, which means that it's fairly complete by the time it reaches the editing stage. On the other hand, if an editor or beta's suggestions don't correspond with my artistic vision (and I do most things very deliberately) I'm highly unlikely to take their advice. In the end, it's my work and while I'm open to suggestions and ideas, and very open to corrections in my language, grammar, spelling, punctuation, etc., I want to have final say in my own content. 

Edited June 21, 2013 by Thorn Wilde